Standards for accepting musicians/singers

[Greg Jones]

What is your philosophy for recruiting and accepting talent?

Do you prioritize a person's willingness over their abilities? How high
do you set your standards for talent? Is your church's worship ministry
a place where people who are willing and have the potential, but aren't
"there yet" can learn?

Greg

[Kim Gentes]

Greg,

I don't think it should ever be a hard rule of "one thing over another", but always an understanding of the goal and aiming for the best possible that meets the goal, treats people with dignity, involved the community and glorifies God.  Of course, if we could all do that 100%, we'd be in heaven already.  But for me, it starts with establishing an understanding of the perspectives and goals that my local congregation is called to. I wrote about this extensively in the article "Hold On: Before You Do Auditions", which is located here http://www.kimgentes.com/worship-team-auditions/ (scroll down and read the article BELOW the download links- the links are the full audition process I user, but the exploratory to finding the goals of the local church is the article below that).  To me its not science or art, but a mixture of the two, always keeping in mind that we are aiming for God's glory while caring for people. We don't run over people to attain a goal, but we don't let people run over others to attain their own glory either.  All that said, I look for people who make the team better. If they don't, I might still use them in practice in "development" mode, as long as they understand that is the commitment at that point, no more.

Just my thoughts, not applicable everywhere..

Kim

Greg

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[Dean Thomas]

We need more info, IMO, to answer this one.

Are you asking about recruiting and accepting volunteers for the worship/praise arts ministries?

Are you talking about HIRING people?
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Dean Thomas

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     a discussion forum for the

     extravagant worship arts

---

[Greg Jones]

Recruiting
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone

Dean Thomas <dea...@yahoo.com> wrote:

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[Dean Thomas]

Philosophy for recruiting volunteers for worship arts ministry. What a great topic!

I pray a lot! No tease, actually.

For me, talent is a secondary issue. Ability in their chosen area is certainly a factor, but two things are far more important. I'm looking for the heart attitude of a worshipper and God's anointing on the individual as a vehicle of worship.

If someone wants to be a part of a music team, for example, to play drums or bass, I'm looking to see if they are at the worship times and participating. If they are chronically late to the service, showing up AFTER the worship times, they've disqualified themselves in my book. Mouth open, singing with abandon, displaying their love of the Lord openly and publicly.

Of course, most anyone can tell me what I want to hear in this realm, so it's a question of listening to their WALK more than their TALK.

I also see Paul's admonition to Timothy as being a word of wisdom in accepting volunteers, "Lay hands on no one suddenly." (1 Tim 5:22)

For me, there has to be a sense of "track record". Have they been around for a while? Are they faithful to this congregation? I'm not sure who was originally responsible for the statement, but I like it a lot. You can't make an able man faithful, but you can train a faithful man to be able."

Are they positive or neutral/negative by nature? Negative people can drag a team down fast.

So in a nutshell, it's about anointing and character. Anointing draws others to Him, and makes room for ones gifts in the kingdom. Ability and/or talent play a secondary role. A powerfully anointed person with great talent and a lousy attitude and character is not a good combo. Attitude and character can cause gifts to be spurned.

If I'm the team leader, yes, there is a place for folks to learn. It's called rehearsal times. And new recruits are going to be working along side the team, but not an instant part of the team. It does not matter which of the worship arts we're talking about, either. Music, dance, audio-visual, drama, clowns, support people, etc. Show me your heart first! Show me who you are.

Hoping to hear from some others on this for Greg's question.
--

Dean Thomas

www.ZionFire.com

www.ZionFireFriends.com

     a discussion forum for the

     extravagant worship arts

[Powla]

I agree with you to a point, Dean.   I think talent has to play a significant part in the decision though, as well.  I have been on worship teams where someone has been added to the team because of their relationship with leadership and they weren't able to keep a beat or they sang flat as a backup singer. 

I was at a vineyard where they required you attend monthly rehearsals for 4-6 months before they put you on a Sunday team - even if you were a pro musician.  I thought that was smart- gave me time to get to know folks and also showed them my commitment level.  

Sent from my Ay-yi-yi phone 

--

[Greg Jones]

There is a lot of wisdom in your thoughts Dean.

I've had to deal with a lot of musicians who couldn't handle the critiques necessary to grow, even when spoken in love. Coupled with serving Pastors who preferred I coddle such attitudes, I tended to leave such situations.

I had to honestly ask whether or not it was me being too crass, but I concluded no based upon past worship leading successes and the honest and open opinions of my friends and family.

--

[Richard Huntrods]

I don't want to hijack this excellent discussion, but the topic raises one issue with me every time it comes up. So I'm modifying the subject a bit to allow a separate thread.

I'm in agreement with pretty much what's been discussed here, especially Dean's post. I probably differ in minor points, but the major points I agree. (Things like how much emphasis to put on attitude vs. talent, etc.)

BUT here's my problem with all this. We have these guidelines for who is allowed to be "up front" during worship but then we seem to chuck them right out the window when choosing "special guests" for our services.

I can't count how many times I've seen the stage turned over to some "super special annointed" person who later turns out to be not at all anointed, and not all that special. ...except perhaps in how well they seem to market themselves and get invited to be special guests.

SO why do we spend so much time seeking to find the best persons for our teams (and best leaders and elders and so on) and then chuck it out when allowing almost anyone with a CD to come play during worship as a special guest? Of course, the question then arises "who is picking these special guests"?

So - do you have the same kinds of restrictions on who gets to be "special guest"? How are special guests selected where you are?

Cheers,

-R

On 12/1/2011 2:07 PM, Powla wrote:

I agree with you to a point, Dean.   I think talent has to play a significant part in the decision though, as well.  I have been on worship teams where someone has been added to the team because of their relationship with leadership and they weren't able to keep a beat or they sang flat as a backup singer. 

I was at a vineyard where they required you attend monthly rehearsals for 4-6 months before they put you on a Sunday team - even if you were a pro musician.  I thought that was smart- gave me time to get to know folks and also showed them my commitment level.  

Sent from my Ay-yi-yi phone 

On Dec 1, 2011, at 9:27 AM, Dean Thomas <dea...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Philosophy for recruiting volunteers for worship arts ministry. What a great topic!

I pray a lot! No tease, actually.

For me, talent is a secondary issue. Ability in their chosen area is certainly a factor, but two things are far more important. I'm looking for the heart attitude of a worshipper and God's anointing on the individual as a vehicle of worship.

If someone wants to be a part of a music team, for example, to play drums or bass, I'm looking to see if they are at the worship times and participating. If they are chronically late to the service, showing up AFTER the worship times, they've disqualified themselves in my book.. Mouth open, singing with abandon, displaying their love of the Lord openly and publicly.

Of course, most anyone can tell me what I want to hear in this realm, so it's a question of listening to their WALK more than their TALK.

I also see Paul's admonition to Timothy as being a word of wisdom in accepting volunteers, "Lay hands on no one suddenly." (1 Tim 5:22)

For me, there has to be a sense of "track record". Have they been around for a while? Are they faithful to this congregation? I'm not sure who was originally responsible for the statement, but I like it a lot. You can't make an able man faithful, but you can train a faithful man to be able."

Are they positive or neutral/negative by nature? Negative people can drag a team down fast.

So in a nutshell, it's about anointing and character. Anointing draws others to Him, and makes room for ones gifts in the kingdom. Ability and/or talent play a secondary role. A powerfully anointed person with great talent and a lousy attitude and character is not a good combo. Attitude and character can cause gifts to be spurned.

If I'm the team leader, yes, there is a place for folks to learn. It's called rehearsal times. And new recruits are going to be working along side the team, but not an instant part of the team. It does not matter which of the worship arts we're talking about, either. Music, dance, audio-visual, drama, clowns, support people, etc. Show me your heart first! Show me who you are.

Hoping to hear from some others on this for Greg's question.
--

Dean Thomas

www.ZionFire.com

www.ZionFireFriends.com

     a discussion forum for the

     extravagant worship arts

Greg wrote:

What is your philosophy for recruiting and accepting talent?

Do you prioritize a person's willingness over their abilities? How high do you set your standards for talent? Is your church's worship ministry a place where people who are willing and have the potential, but aren't "there yet" can learn?

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[Greg Jones]

I don't know about allowing just anyone who has a CD to perform as a special guest, but I will say that special guests aren't as high maintenance because they aren't required to be at our churches every week and get invested in the vision of our worship ministries....

But what kind of disappointments have you experienced with special guests? I wouldn't simply let some local talent be a "special guest" merely because they have a CD. I'm more inclined to do that with a national act like Crowder, Tomlin, Israel Houghton, et al....  Those acts haven't publicly exposed dirty laundry. At the same time, those kind of acts aren't exactly begging to come to most of our churches ....

[Greg Jones]

And how should we handle those who don't meet the cut? And what about those who we have 'inherited', i.e., they were already on the team when we arrived as a new worship leader, who don't meet these requirements?

[Kim Gentes]

The key here (as with recruiting, auditioning and everything else) is truth in love.  What I find is that churches BIGGEST mistake is normally not trying to apply love, but trying to clearly speak truth.  We often are kind, coddle, encourage, bless and do our best not be unChristlike in our words and actions to those interested in worship ministry. But in the end, we often (much too often) forget to be truthful. Not without love, but still with truth.

How about:

Q: And how should we handle those who don't meet the cut?

A: (my typical answer) As you know, the evaluation process helps us see if your musical gifting is a helpful match in our worship team. You have the other needed components of involvement in the community and dedication and love for Christ, but we just can't use your musical abilities in the Sunday morning context. There are other options for serving, though, such as small groups, men's/women's ministry and such. In addition, as you continue to improve your skill set, please know that we can have you involved in practices to both allow you to grow and continue to show us where you are at.

Q: And what about those who we have 'inherited',

A: This is more trick for me personally, but I often approach this with two thoughts- 1. I don't dump people already in, I pastor them. This may mean giving them opportunities to train , learn, take lessons etc. If it is clear they will won't reach usable skill level in 2 years or less, I simply tell them that.  2. If I am taking over a new position as leader, I would ask all current members to resign. I start from scratch, using auditions, after having talked to the pastor about goals, etc.

There is a ton of back-story to each of those answers, which would require long pages. But to be brief I summarized my thoughts here.

Kim

[Dean Thomas]

Ah, the real rub in all of it!

We could play Donald Trump and simply announce, "You're fired!" but that makes a mess for sure.

Politically speaking this is a lose-lose situation. Keeping people "just because" is not a solution, and abruptly dumping them can cause deep resentment both on the team and in the congregation.

Just as with my philosophy shared earlier, it's one person's position, not to be foisted on every leader in every situation. What works for you might not fit my MO, and vice versa. This can never be a "one size fits all" solution.

If we're talking about try-outs, part of the prep process is that we let folks know that volunteering does not mean a guarantee of a spot on the team. It's a benign dictatorship, run by the team leader under the authority of the pastor. How much authority do you have? How badly do you need or want to exercise the authority? There are SO many factors in this that it's not a black and white issue.

If we're talking about stepping into a new congregation as a hired hand, I would have to talk deep and long with the pastor to make sure that what I want to do is within the context of his/her vision.

If Helena & I were asked to head up a team right now, it would start out as just the two of us, and we would reserve the privilege of INVITING people and UN-inviting people from a new team. If we were coming into a new church, how would we sit down an existing team and survive to lead another day? I think we might consider standing up the new/replacement team a little at a time, and perhaps phasing the other team out over some period of time while we were becoming established. That would give us time to determine which potential new team members were on the same philosophical page.

Lastly, it is really important to make sure that pastor and worship leader/arts team leader, are on that same philosophical page. Is that pastor going to support your goals as his/her own?? Is that pastor viewing you as part of the pastoral/leadership team, or are you just another hireling called to lead the music or some other worship arts team? If you're just there to lead the music and not change the culture, it might be good not to change the culture very much!

Tough questions, Greg.
--

Dean Thomas

www.ZionFire.com

www.ZionFireFriends.com

     a discussion forum for the

     extravagant worship arts

---

And Greg replied:

[Richard Huntrods]

I've been brought in to lead in a few 'not great' situations - one where the existing team was so burned out that I was told up front that no-one from the current team would be on the any new team I created, and one where the existing team was 'by gum' not leaving under any circumstances, in spite of many existing problems (attitude and talent combined).

In the first case it was actually easy. In my opinion, EVERY worship leader should be able to lead worship ALONE. Just you and your chosen instrument and the congregation. It's certainly a great way to demonstrate whatever leadership skills you have as well as whatever musical ability you have. If you cannot lead a congregation by yourself, then what exactly is your talent again? (sorry, but that's just my opinion). The world has enough managers and organizers and downright bossy people. We need more servants, IMO.

Anyway, the whole point in case 1 was to give all the existing musicians and singers a break from what had burned them out. Part of that was trying to sound like the CD's, so I truly represented a BIG change from that! ;-)

After a time, a few of the original team came to me asking if they could join me. I invited them to a practice "to see if we get along" (musically and spiritually). We did, so they joined the team. After 3 months we had all but two of the original team on worship. The big difference is that even with a fuller team, I won't try and sound like the CDs. I emphasize that we "make the music our own" and try and honor our own gifts in the worship. So if the song was all keyboard but we have guitars, then it becomes a guitar song. No drums? No problem. It's about creating worship with the congregation, not showing off. (again, IMO). Musical quality is still critical - ever seen a congregation struggle with a song that's 'off' rhythmically, or too high, or the band is just TOO loud? Anyway, that was the first situation.

Second situation, I checked first with the minister, and then attended the first practice. After the (horribly unorganized) practice, I asked them as a group what they wanted most out of the worship time. Everyone expressed a desire to "be better". I asked them what that meant to them. Eventually it came out that they wanted to have a more cohesive sound and to blend. I told them from my experience that comes only from dedicated practice as a team. I asked them if anyone had a problem with "if you don't attend the practice, you cannot sing during the service". Everyone agreed that was acceptable (I'd already cleared this with the minister as my one big rule for coming on board).

After that, it was actually pretty easy. Most people have a talent that can be nurtured, even if sometimes you have to divert them from one thing to another. As I expected from having observed the team in action, the one person who seemed to exhibit an attitude problem would not attend practice (this was one key behavior causing problems when I was brought in). Once they learned that I would not allow them to be on the team during the service, one of them started attending practice while the other went elsewhere "where his talents were appreciated"

Note: both were considered 'key talent' on the original team and thus 'we can't do without them', which lead to the attendance problem. Of course, not attending practice meant that they never knew what songs were being sung, or how, or in what key. Many a service they would just start doing things 'their own way' leaving the team to struggle to catch up. Once they either attended practice or didn't play, the team (to their amazement) discovered they actually sounded better even without the 'talent'.

As for picking a team from dozens of keen persons all eager to join... what I wonderful challenge that must be. One of those challenges I'll someday hope to have. :-)

Cheers,

-R

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[Frank Scales]

What a great topic. My situation is unique in that I'm not in
leadership during this season, but volunteering as a musician at a
very large church.
When I joined the team, the qualification process to join the worship
arts team included, relationship with Christ, a committed member of
the church - must complete the first "101" series of membership
classes, a be an active member of a small group. Obvious there are the
obvious musical things too and willingness to volunteer, etc. It's a
big commitment with 8 services per weekend over 3 venues. But I find
it refreshing to note that I'm at a place that puts a big emphasis on
the individual's responsibility to the vision of the church. It just
makes sense and IMO the teams can relate better to the congregation
when people get to know one another as a result. I feel more at home
at a so called mega church now because of our involvement than I ever
thought I would.
Back in September our leadership felt God was calling our entire
church to a week of waiting on Him. That's what we did for seven
days. Constant prayer and worship events - morning noon and nights,
culminating in a Friday night Baptism service with over 250 baptized,
and then an emphasis on small groups that weekend. Since then (and no
exaggeration) there have been an additional 3,000 people start
attending small groups getting connected one on one. We're looking at
building another campus to house the crowds. God continues to bless.
I think for me I love being there making new friends, seeing God do
His work, more than I like being on the platform. The worship ministry
is just icing on the cake for me and it's my honor to serve.