Re: [windemere-townhomes] Abridged summary of windemere-townhomes@googlegroups.com - 3 updates in 1 topic

[Michele Bergh]

Thank you for the update. I appreciate that.  I did see that just a couple community members were able to make that meeting, but I think the community at large needs to understand what is happening and vote on whether we need to cash pay $17,000 per homeowner to replace some of the roofs in the community that have minimal damage. 

I have Loss assessment insurance but prior to the email we received last month it was $10K, which my agent thought was more than sufficient. When we received the email about roof inspections and a recommendation that we should change it to $50K, I did that too, however it is not retroactive to May 10. In talking with State Farm -  My agent has never in her 30 year career seen an HOA loss assessment of more that $5,000. So a loss assessment of $17,000 per homeowner is way out of line.  

I also have issue with the minimal damages as shown in the reports. One of the reports actually included my home and looking at the photos there are a few shingles with a few grains/pebbles that have been loosened or knocked off - on a total of 10 shingles. I was here for the last major hail storm and that did cause damage to roofs, siding, air conditioners etc..and did necessitate a roof replacement.  In this instance, I was home for this storm on May 10. In fact, I went outside and took pictures of the hail while it was hailing (which I still have with the date and time stamp). I was pebble size hail at most in our neighborhood, not 3/4 to in inch. I don’t believe it would even be a qualifying event. I had two cars parked outside at the time, and neither had even a small dent. A mile away they had the large hail you speak of, but that was not in our neighborhood. 

State Farm also took issue with the cost estimate. The average cost to repair or replace a roof should not be anywhere near $100,000 +/per 3000 square foot building. There are many things that can be done to repair issues that need to be repair without contracting with roofing contractors to replace our roofs. I encourage everyone to read the attached article and educate themselves about cost and consequences of going down a path to replace roofs in the community that have minor damage. We will have any more hail storms to weather in the coming years and it does not make sense to have the community cash pay to replace roofs each time there is minor damage. Certainly if anyone has major damage or issues with leaking that would warrant being addressed and repaired as needed. Please see the attached article with information on cost and most importantly the other attached article that explains more about replacing roofs with minor damage. 

I will I could be at the meeting on Tuesday, but I am traveling at the time. I sincerely hope some other homeowners attend and have the same sense of reason. 

Information on average repair cost:

https://www.forbes.com/home-improvement/roofing/roof-hail-damage-repair-cost/

Should I replace my roof after a hailstorm? 

The short answer is usually "no" unless there is significant damage, but there are many considerations and complexities that complicate what you might think would be an easy decision. This creates a conundrum for homeowners whose homes have suffered insignificant or inconsequential hail damage, which is the majority of hail damage insurance claims. Making matters more complex are roofing contractors pushing homeowners and insurance companies to replace roofs and gutters that have only minor damage that doesn't affect the durability or appearance of the home.

These are facts about roofs and hail damage, and chances are the roofing contractor that's trying to get you to replace your roof won't provide you with this information:

1. Most roofs that get replaced from hail damage do not need to be replaced.

2. Most roofs that get replaced have more problems than the previous roof.

3. Most roof leaks occur due to faulty installation or neglect, not hail damage.

4. Most roof leaks have nothing to do with shingles because leaks usually occur at interruptions in the roof such as vents, chimneys, valleys, or joints where roof lines adjoin exterior walls (such as roof dormers, or where a single-story garage is attached to a two-story house).

The Hail Damage Conundrum

Here's the quandary that most homeowners deal with relative to hail damage and insurance: If you turn in a claim to your insurance company to have them evaluate your home for possible damage, and an adjuster finds some minor evidence of impact at the roof in addition to light hail denting on the roof vents, gutters or valley flashing, you now have a home that has hail damage and your insurance company knows about it. Now the insurer owes you money and if you don't replace the damaged components the insurance company won't pay for replacing these components 5 years later when a subsequent (and more severe) storm comes through, and in fact might cancel your policy if you don't replace hail damaged components in a timely manner, even though the damage to those components won't affect the durability of the home or its ability to protect itself from the elements.

 How Hail Affects Shingles

Most homes are roofed with composition shingles that are made from a bituminous asphalt material with a granular coating on the surface that gives the shingle color and protects the base material from the harmful rays of the sun. Most shingles stay pliable until they're 12 or so years old (depending on exposure to sun), so they have the ability to absorb impact from hailstones and usually don't suffer consequential damage unless there are a significant number of hailstones that are 2" and larger. Smaller hailstones do knock granules loose from shingles, can impact granules into the shingle's bituminous base, and potentially crack shingles, but this type of damage isn't typically detrimental to the roof's ability to shed water away from the home.  When installed correctly shingles overlap each other by double, and on the base of the roof under the shingles there should be another layer or two of moisture barrier (AKA underlayment or leak barrier), thus any water that leaks must penetrate three layers to actually get through the roof. Most hail damage only affects the top layer of shingles, and usually that damage is inconsequential, and even golf ball-sized hail won't do much damage to shingles unless stones are windblown and/or in significant amounts for a prolonged period.

Some hailstorms cause severe damage to roofs and shingles can be literally pulverized by hail. Such storms cause legitimate hail damage claims and the damage requires immediate replacement of the roof, but these types of storms are not the norm when it comes to insurance claims. Most hail damage claims pay for damage that would be barely noticeable to the untrained eye and highly unlikely to ever cause any damage to a home from leaks.

"We never had a problem with our roof until we replaced our shingles"

My advice to clients is if it's not leaking don't replace it unless the shingles have significant damage (more than just impact damage or small cracks / splits) or are exceptionally old and brittle (because brittle shingles are susceptible to wind damage and other problems, which is a whole other topic of discussion). 

Chances are far more likely that non-leaking roof will have a leak after removing and replacing shingles than if left undisturbed, here's why: A home is a system of components that are integrated together, and replacing just one component can be difficult without affecting other components. Roofs often integrate with siding, masonry, eaves and ventilation systems, and there is often metal "flashing" (aluminum or galvanized metal pieces shaped or bent to shed water away from joints) at the edges of the roof or at roof joints. Flashing is used to provide a watertight transition between shingles and other components, but it can be difficult or impossible to replace flashing when replacing shingles because the flashing is often installed before or in conjunction with the other components that aren't being replaced. Flashing is often tucked behind the siding, built into the mortar joints of masonry, or under eaves at dormers, therefore it can't be removed and replaced despite often being bent or damaged during the removal of shingles. Most roofers solve the problem by applying a caulk or sealant where the flashing exists after the shingles are installed, but sealant doesn't always stop leaks, and sometimes it makes them worse because caulk / sealant traps moisture under the shingles and/or behind the flashing.

  "What should I do if there's been hail at our house?"

So, what's the solution you ask? If your home has been through a mild hailstorm don't turn in an insurance claim. If many years down the road your shingles need to be replaced and have hail damage you can contact your insurer at that point in time (assuming you're staying with the same company). While most policies exclude coverage for old damage, they do have an obligation to pay for damage that occurred when they insured the home, even if it was many years prior. Insurance companies typically don't penalize people who don't turn in claims or turn them in years down the road. When I was an insurance claims adjuster I had an obligation to always pay for shingles with hail damage, even if it was 10 years old, as long as we insured the home when it occurred, and even if we didn't insure the home when the damage occurred because it's difficult to prove when the actual damage took place.

Replacing shingles on roofs unnecessarily has a negative impact on availability of resources, insurance premiums and can cause an increase in the cost of shingles. Replacement of the roof can also affect the condition of a home because of the increased likelihood of problems (leaks, possibility of rain when shingles are off, potential for wind damaged shingles if they don't seal properly after installation, improper installation, etc.), and the damage caused to flashing and roof decking through the course of removal and replacement of shingles.

Every case is unique and I've barely touched on all the nuances of weather damage, shingle types, roof styles, durability, preventative maintenance, and other factors that affect decisions about roofing and insurance. My hope is to get you to think twice about just casually turning in an insurance claim when there's been a hailstorm or after some roofing company salesperson tries to sell you a new roof because your old shingles are allegedly "bad".

The writer worked as a professional contractor doing roofing, and later worked as an insurance claims adjuster handling hail damage claims before he became a home inspector 20 years ago. 

On Jul 15, 2023, at 1:54 PM, windemere...@googlegroups.com wrote:

windemere...@googlegroups.com

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• Roofing Inspection - 3 Updates

Roofing Inspection

Michele Bergh <mbe...@comcast.net>: Jul 14 04:38PM -0500 I am not able to attend the HOA meeting, however, I would like to express that I firmly disagree with a special loss assessment of $36,610. I have loss assessment coverage at what was the HOA ...more

Sandra Mikesell <smik...@gmail.com>: Jul 14 04:49PM -0600 Michelle,   I am sure the board will communicate the choices at the upcoming meeting, but your post is misleading. I was one of the homeowners that attended the meeting last week in which Advance ...more

"kyungk...@gmail.com" <kyungk...@gmail.com>: Jul 15 08:22AM -0700 Thanks, Sandy. This really helps as I was not able to joint the meeting last week. I spoke with my insurance agent and they have never heard of <$36K loss assessment.   Kyung ...more

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[Sandra Mikesell]

Michelle, 

The attachment that I linked last week did not work, but the letter that our insurance company sent out last March (which was similar to previous versions that were sent out when I was on the board) is now correctly attached. I would encourage all homeowners to read it - as our insurance agent wrote it and explains the HOA policy and important information for homeowners to know. It was in my email sent from Hammersmith on March 24th. The newsletter, which also advised homeowners to get $50,000 in HO6 coverage followed on March 29th. The recommendation in the previous year was for $30,000. The recommended HO6 value has been $25,000 or above for at least 3 or 4 years.

I understand the concerns that you raised, and they were raised by other homeowners at the meeting last week. I will try to summarize the board's considerations and the discussions that occured, from my memory and perspective as a homeowner present. 

Several homeowners discussed not fixing the roof or doing repairs other than a full replacement at length with the board and representatives present. As the reports notate, the industry standard that determines when it is more economical to replace versus repair is 10 hits in a 10 x10 foot area. Buildings and roofs were surveyed at random, and in all cases this threshold was exceeded. The roofs need repair or leaks will develop, and the roof will not age to their expected lifespan (they were under warranty for 30 years for most things except hail which is never covered). 

Why is it not possible to simply choose to not repair them? 

1. The HOA would become responsible for any interior damage to houses due to roof leaks. This could become very costly and significantly impact our reserves. 

2. We would not be able to sell our houses, or would have a significant loss of value. All home sales require an inspection and a buyer would likely run from a sale if the roof report showed damage at the threshold of replacement and we did not take action. 

3. The HOA would not be able to get their exterior homeowners insurance renewed!

4. The warranty for the roof (installed in 2016) would no longer be valid.

5. As your article pointed out - it is difficult to replace just the damaged shingles on a roof because the components are all integrated and replacement in part can lead to more leaks. The number of 10 hits is set as a metric to determine the threshold to replace in full. 

As far as your agent never having heard of deductibles that are as high, I would encourage you to reach out to Dane Hamilton, the HOA insurance broker. I am sure he can walk you through the trends, but Colorado has had a huge increase in the number of catastrophic (hail, wind, fire) related claims in the past 15 years which has created larger and larger deductibles for hail / wind coverage. 

You also have incorrect information in your response above about the cost. You said, "State Farm also took issue with the cost estimate. The average cost to repair or replace a roof should not be anywhere near $100,000 +/per 3000 square foot building." This is incorrect. 

It appears that the roofs were the only thing damaged in the May 10th storm. Replacing the roofs is estimated to cost 2 million dollars total (this was based on our building square footage). $2million / 40 buildings  = $50,000 per building per roof.  The total damage of $2 million is under the cost of the deductible, so the HOA will likely NOT file an insurance claim (even if they start the process with the insurance company). Thus each household is likely to be assessed approximately $17,000. 

I believe your misconception is coming from the full 4.3 million deductible, which would be just over $100,000 per building. If the May 10th storm had been more severe, with larger hail that damaged not only the roof but also stucco, siding, windows, and gutters, we would have had damages above the deductible amount and then homeowners could have been on the hook for a much larger assessment per household of $35,000! Any homeowner that was underinsured with less than the recommended HO6 loss assessment coverage should feel fortunate that the storm was not as severe - as I cannot imagine being underinsured by $25,000 dollars. It would definitely be a hit that would impact my household for years. I think you can likely breathe easy that the special assessment deductible for this storm will be under $20,000 per household based on the damage. So as long as you have loss assessment coverage for that value, you should be adequately covered. But count your lucky stars for this wake up call and up your coverage immediately to the recommended $50,000! And be alert for emails in the spring with insurance renewal information, as diligent homeowners should adjust their coverage accordingly. 

I hope this information helps..... 

Sincerely, 

Sandy Mikesell

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