This group has been setup in response to my blog posting "Missing: The Business Case for PHP" [1].
To get started, I think the first thing we need to do is to compile a list of topics that the business case needs to cover. On my list I have:
* addressing concerns about PHP being open-source * addressing security concerns about PHP itself * addressing security concerns about software written in PHP * addressing performance and scalability * finding credible case studies / references for vertical markets (insurance, health, finance, etc etc)
Thanks for the shout out :-) - just a quick caveat that I'm not part of Zend's marketing team so I can give some pointers to some good stuff, but they aren't Zend official positions.
I'm not sure the topics you've listed are Business Case per se (which would normally have some ROI calculation) and are more like PHP in the Enterprise - which is certainly well covered in a variety of resources (just google) but certainly not distilled into one central resource online (yet).
For a fine example of such a resource check out the comprehensive work done by our friends at AFUP the French PHP user group which is one of the most active, organized and professional PHP user groups I've come across. If you're comfortable reading in French make sure you look at their white paper which is revised every year or so. You can find it here: http://afup.org/article.php3?id_article=264 . It also helps that 87% of the top companies in France are using PHP (in various ways), that's a nice stat you can throw around to demonstrate that with PHP you're not talking niche.
Regards,
David
On Feb 8, 7:48 pm, stuart.herb...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for joining the group, and for all of your encouragement to date.
On Feb 8, 9:54 pm, "davidgoul...@gmail.com" <davidgoul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure the topics you've listed are Business Case per se (which > would normally have some ROI calculation) and are more like PHP in the > Enterprise - which is certainly well covered in a variety of resources > (just google) but certainly not distilled into one central resource > online (yet).
You're quite right. To help clarify what I believe we're trying to achieve here, I've put together a first cut mission statement for the group. I'll start another thread for us to discuss it and refine it.
> For a fine example of such a resource check out the comprehensive work > done by our friends at AFUP the French PHP user group which is one of > the most active, organized and professional PHP user groups I've come > across. If you're comfortable reading in French make sure you look at > their white paper which is revised every year or so. > You can find it here:http://afup.org/article.php3?id_article=264. It > also helps that 87% of the top companies in France are using PHP (in > various ways), that's a nice stat you can throw around to demonstrate > that with PHP you're not talking niche.
Alas, my French is suffering from two decades of neglect, but I'll take a look and see if anyone in the office can help me with it. Anyone know of an English translation of their white paper?
> I don't know anyone in the AFUP. I'll drop them an email over the > weekend and ask them for their help and experience.
Cool
> > I've put some things in pages, not sure if this is a way forwards but > > it's at least a start to collect some thoughts in one place.
> Good idea. This is my first time using Google groups, so I'm still > finding my way around. I'll find some time today to add to what > you've started.
me 3 so let's see how it goes.
I forgot to mention that the initiative is brilliant, BIG thanks for getting the ball rolling! I'm based in Germany and so is Tobi so I think we should be able to get a draft version in German very early on. I think this will help quality assurance of the content and message and point us to things we may have missed.
We might want to note any national consideration that could be used in particular countries. I.e. Governmental acceptance of OS and or regulations.
> I forgot to mention that the initiative is brilliant, BIG thanks for > getting the ball rolling!
:)
> I'm based in Germany and so is Tobi so I think we should be able to > get a draft version in German very early on.
Excellent idea. I hadn't thought of translations at all.
> I think this will help quality assurance of the content and message > and point us to things we may have missed.
Definitely.
> We might want to note any national consideration that could be used in > particular countries. > I.e. Governmental acceptance of OS and or regulations.
Yes, another good idea.
Probably a good idea to start putting together a list of useful links on a page, so that we have references for everything that ends up in the final doc.
Perhaps a better way to look at this is to ask questions that a business would normally ask.
"Can I get support for a PHP app?" "Did I hear PHP is insecure somewhere?" "I thought PHP is just for websites?" "Will we need to buy some Linux servers to run PHP?" "The database is MsSQL, shouldn't we be using ASP?" "How can I trust the people that wrote PHP?"
(Any more?)
It's also worth bearing in mind the competition against PHP. Most software choices are language agnostic and are made against a product. I fell pretty confident in claiming that no company ever chose something written C++ over something written in C because it was written in C++. Well so long as we are talking about not IT companies anyway.
So perhaps there would be value in promoting selected PHP apps as a demonstration of reliability, usability etc. (Note, not phpBB)
Regards Richard
On Feb 8, 5:48 pm, stuart.herb...@gmail.com wrote:
<richard.a.fletc...@googlemail.com> wrote: > Hello all.
> Perhaps a better way to look at this is to ask questions that a > business would normally ask.
> "Can I get support for a PHP app?" > "Did I hear PHP is insecure somewhere?" > "I thought PHP is just for websites?" > "Will we need to buy some Linux servers to run PHP?" > "The database is MsSQL, shouldn't we be using ASP?" > "How can I trust the people that wrote PHP?"
These are good questions!
> It's also worth bearing in mind the competition against PHP. Most > software choices are language agnostic and are made against a product.
Unfortunately, our experience is different. We're finding that, as you sell into larger and larger organisations, the architecture board already has a preference (normally either J2EE or .NET), and can be resistant to other technologies (even though they're buying a shrink- wrapped product that won't be maintained by in-house developers).
> I fell pretty confident in claiming that no company ever chose > something written C++ over something written in C because it was > written in C++. Well so long as we are talking about not IT companies > anyway.
That I can't comment on. But I do know for certain that larger organisations have chosen solutions because they were written in Java and not in PHP. And *that* is exactly the obstacle I'm hoping we can help ISVs overcome.
> So perhaps there would be value in promoting selected PHP apps as a > demonstration of reliability, usability etc. (Note, not phpBB)
Hehe - definitely not phpBB :)
Seriously, having a showcase of high quality (and successful) solutions that are written in PHP is a very good idea. Does Zend currently maintain anything like this? If not, maybe we could take this on instead?
These are exactly the questions we get asked! I have the good fortune to work with Stu, and am excited about this whole initiative. As Stu says, we are increasily selling our software into large enterprises and we hit the questions you detail time & time again. I think the overall objective for us is to establish _credibility_ for PHP. It seems at the moment that during the sales cycle, we have to spend a lot of our timing 'educating' the market. I don't mean that in a patronising way; what I'm saying is that due to the lack of what is essentially 'marketing', suppliers such as ourselves have to 'educate' the consumer. This is both costly and rather depressing!
We usually follow two main strands in building credibility for PHP:
1) Authority (i.e. from Zend itself, and other large players such as Oracle & IBM) 2) Reputation/Perception (for example, who is using it; who is talking about and so on)
Anyway, just my two cents worth. We as a company are really excited about all of this, and look forward to working with you all!
Benno (Box UK)
On Feb 9, 10:18 am, stuart.herb...@gmail.com wrote:
> <richard.a.fletc...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Hello all.
> > Perhaps a better way to look at this is to ask questions that a > > business would normally ask.
> > "Can I get support for a PHP app?" > > "Did I hear PHP is insecure somewhere?" > > "I thought PHP is just for websites?" > > "Will we need to buy some Linux servers to run PHP?" > > "The database is MsSQL, shouldn't we be using ASP?" > > "How can I trust the people that wrote PHP?"
> These are good questions!
> > It's also worth bearing in mind the competition against PHP. Most > > software choices are language agnostic and are made against a product.
> Unfortunately, our experience is different. We're finding that, as > you sell into larger and larger organisations, the architecture board > already has a preference (normally either J2EE or .NET), and can be > resistant to other technologies (even though they're buying a shrink- > wrapped product that won't be maintained by in-house developers).
> > I fell pretty confident in claiming that no company ever chose > > something written C++ over something written in C because it was > > written in C++. Well so long as we are talking about not IT companies > > anyway.
> That I can't comment on. But I do know for certain that larger > organisations have chosen solutions because they were written in Java > and not in PHP. And *that* is exactly the obstacle I'm hoping we can > help ISVs overcome.
> > So perhaps there would be value in promoting selected PHP apps as a > > demonstration of reliability, usability etc. (Note, not phpBB)
> Hehe - definitely not phpBB :)
> Seriously, having a showcase of high quality (and successful) > solutions that are written in PHP is a very good idea. Does Zend > currently maintain anything like this? If not, maybe we could take > this on instead?
> <richard.a.fletc...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Hello all.
> > Perhaps a better way to look at this is to ask questions that a > > business would normally ask.
> > "Can I get support for a PHP app?" > > "Did I hear PHP is insecure somewhere?" > > "I thought PHP is just for websites?" > > "Will we need to buy some Linux servers to run PHP?" > > "The database is MsSQL, shouldn't we be using ASP?" > > "How can I trust the people that wrote PHP?"
> These are good questions!
Why, thank you!
> > It's also worth bearing in mind the competition against PHP. Most > > software choices are language agnostic and are made against a product.
> Unfortunately, our experience is different. We're finding that, as > you sell into larger and larger organisations, the architecture board > already has a preference (normally either J2EE or .NET), and can be > resistant to other technologies (even though they're buying a shrink- > wrapped product that won't be maintained by in-house developers).
OK. Your customers are probably bigger than mine, explaining the difference.
> > So perhaps there would be value in promoting selected PHP apps as a > > demonstration of reliability, usability etc. (Note, not phpBB)
> Hehe - definitely not phpBB :)
> Seriously, having a showcase of high quality (and successful) > solutions that are written in PHP is a very good idea. Does Zend > currently maintain anything like this? If not, maybe we could take > this on instead?
I think that Zend are only associated with PHP by knowledgeable types. If we're talking about communicating with people who do not know a lot about PHP, if anything, then I think we are talking about people who have never heard of Zend. If I am correct in this then it doesn't matter if Zend do anything like this or not. We need something separate.
Perhaps an annual award for PHP programs? The more awards we can come up with the better, to show depth in the uses of PHP. There would have to be meaningful competition within each category. If this idea was to run then we would require judges with seniority in the community. i.e. not me.
Perhaps a certification scheme for well coded programs? Although that could back fire if there was a serious security problem with a certified application. There are also practical problems. I have personally churned out 40k lines of code since last June and it would take a lot of work to go through that for an independent security check. Probably an unworkable idea, but I'm thinking out loud here :)
