* web2py's Brand *
Wobmofo
http://wiki.pylonshq.com/display/pylonscommunity/Brand+Strategy+Notes
There is one thing I haven't understood (if a native english speaker
could explain me) : Externalisation : How you come across.
I created a survey for web2py. GO answer it :
https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dEtDeUp1VFlqVnVXSFdORnlQY1o1MXc6MA
mdipierro
> I created a survey for web2py. GO answer it :https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dEtDeUp1VFlqVnVXSFdO...
Thadeus Burgess
-Thadeus
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "web2py-users" group.
> To post to this group, send email to web...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to web2py+un...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/web2py?hl=en.
>
>
Wobmofo
so far).
On Mar 2, 5:36 pm, Thadeus Burgess <thade...@thadeusb.com> wrote:
> When will you be releasing the results?
>
> -Thadeus
>
Wobmofo
Wobmofo
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKCyJuTYjVuWHWNFyPcZ51w&single=true&gid=0&output=html
http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewanalytics?formkey=dEtDeUp1VFlqVnVXSFdORnlQY1o1MXc6MA
In summary :
web2py is THE EASY web framework
django people don't like us
web2py's Authenticity and Passion is good
web2py's Identity (The art work, logos) need some works
web2py's Reputation is average
about half people here would wear a web2py T-Shirt
For those who haven't take the survey it's not too late :
https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dEtDeUp1VFlqVnVXSFdORnlQY1o1MXc6MA
mdipierro
exception.
Perhaps a web2py hat is better than a t-shirt. I lost mine last
summer. :-(
On Mar 3, 10:10 am, Wobmofo <muito...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is the results (from only 11 responses):
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tKCyJuTYjVuWHWNFyPcZ51w&single...
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/viewanalytics?formkey=dEtDeUp1VFlqVnVX...
>
> In summary :
> web2py is THE EASY web framework
> django people don't like us
> web2py's Authenticity and Passion is good
> web2py's Identity (The art work, logos) need some works
> web2py's Reputation is average
> about half people here would wear a web2py T-Shirt
>
> For those who haven't take the survey it's not too late :https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dEtDeUp1VFlqVnVXSFdO...
John Heenan
> Some of the answers are funny. Mostly they are consistent with one
> exception.
> Perhaps a web2py hat is better than a t-shirt. I lost mine last
> summer. :-(
>
Rather flippant given that someone has gone to some effort to set up a
survey to help out Web2py and that the survey responses were careful.
As I see it the real goal of Web2py is to become more popular than
Django. I do not see this as healthy.
Like it or not, for whatever reasons the Python community is
interested in Django and not in Web2py, as evidenced through
democratic votes of PyCon participants about what participants want to
attend presentations about.
Web2py says it is for the enterprise yet who can identify where the
enterprise is in web2py that will ensure its long term future and
suitability for those really unexciting and boring issues such as paid
guaranteed support? The support base is tiny and lacks well known
names.
I did not complete the survey. I find the concern over popularity
uncomfortable. I have never come anything of a comparable nature that
gets so anguished about its 'destiny'. To me it is a bad sign and
indicates a weakness. If the goal of Linux was to be more popular than
Windows then Linux would be long dead. There is some irony related to
issues I do not want to revive and never wanted raised, that Linux
lost the PR battle with Windows not because of Linux but because of
Apache. How dumb is that from those who obsessively hammered Windows
and Windows users as dumb?
John Heenan
Thadeus Burgess
is currently in the minds of the community and those using it, and
then where do we actually "want" to be.
We can't dial a Stargate unless we know the point of origin!
-Thadeus
Mengu
There are things that I agree with you and there are things that I
disagree with you. For example if PyCon participants are interested in
Django and not in web2py, isn't this for Django's popularity? If so,
how come the concern over popularity is uncomfortable? When selecting
a framework, I do not care about its popularity, I care about how
powerful it is, how easy it is, the tools it provides me and how it
makes me focus on development. However many people out there looking
for a framework start by popular ones. This is why we should care
about the framework popularity.
On people not liking web2py.. I have been in this community for a long
time I can say and I have never seen serious criticisms on the
framework except for Armin Ronacher's post. [1] People just talk about
web2py and this is all. For example I see people talking about DAL
being different and weird however if web2py's database side would be
like Django models or SQLAlchemy models they would surely say "yet
another orm, do we need it?" but now it is different and way more easy
to use they say "what is that? is it a joke?". We can never please
everybody and I think we don't have to. Just let web2py to be there in
its best form and let there be happy web2py users.
As a web2py developer there are things that I don't like in the
framework but I simply don't use them and go with another way. For
example I don't create my forms with SQLFORM tool or FORM helper. I
don't use SQLFORM because I think it is not customizable and I don't
use FORM because I think writing pure html is a little bit faster than
using HTML helpers. (Not using HTML helpers is my principle, not
something related to web2py). Yet what do I do for improving SQLFORM?
Nothing. I just have couple of ideas but I just have and I don't do
anything about it. And when I'm in such situation how can I complain
about SQLFORM? It is not fair.
[1] http://groups.google.com/group/web2py/browse_thread/thread/e772b1e29f1cf833/fa2686e1c08be941?
mdipierro
On Mar 3, 7:23 pm, John Heenan <johnmhee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 4, 2:17 am, mdipierro <mdipie...@cs.depaul.edu> wrote:
>
> > Some of the answers are funny. Mostly they are consistent with one
> > exception.
> > Perhaps a web2py hat is better than a t-shirt. I lost mine last
> > summer. :-(
>
> Rather flippant given that someone has gone to some effort to set up a
> survey to help out Web2py and that the survey responses were careful.
Perhaps my comment did not come out right. This was a good idea. When
I said some some of the answers are "funny" I meant it in a positive
sense. Perhaps I did not translated the concept I have in my mind
("simpatiche" in Italian) in the proper english.
> As I see it the real goal of Web2py is to become more popular than
> Django. I do not see this as healthy.
I do not think this is the goal. I think the future of python
frameworks is correlated, not anti-correlated.
> Like it or not, for whatever reasons the Python community is
> interested in Django and not in Web2py, as evidenced through
> democratic votes of PyCon participants about what participants want to
> attend presentations about.
I was part of the process so I have something to add about this. For
three years there has been no talk and no tutorials about web2py,
although for three years I have submitted proposals. I was on a panel
discussion at PyCon 2009 because Guido stepped in and told them
excluding web2py was unfair. I was invited to a panel discussion at
PyCon 2010 but I did not go because 5 minutes of air time are not
worth the costs.
It is not the participants making the choice but a small set of
organizers. The decision process by the organizers is indeed
democratic (one person one vote) and I was one of them, but the rules
are debatable because the goal is unclear. One problem is that
basically few people participate to all rounds of discussions and in
practice it takes only one or two people to essentially veto a talk.
Some people when confronted with the choice tend to give a preference
to talks that they perceive to be more popular (for example Django vs
TG or web.py or web2py) and to "good speakers" defined as those who
have already presented at PyCon before. I have argued that the goal of
PyCon should be to broaden the audience (identify medium/large sub-
communities and give them representation) as opposed to consolidate
existing audience by giving a majority premium to largest communities
(such as ~24 hours of Django tutorials/talks and almost nothing to
other web frameworks). Of course the Django tutorials were the most
popular since by filtering out smaller communities the Django users
were the largest community represented at PyCon. The result is that
almost nobody from our list of 1600 people attended PyCon 2010. This
is not a problem for us as much as it is a problem for PyCon and the
Python community in general.
Although I have published some technical comparisons between web2py
and Django (as well as between web2py and other web frameworks) you
will not find any post from me or other members less than deferential
towards Django. Although, unfortunately, the opposite is not true,
negative remarks tend to come from the low end of the food chain. In
fact top Django developers and contributors are nice, intelligent and
friendly people.
Moreover I am not convinced at all that the Django community is
particularly hostile to web2py. It is just very large so it is more
likely that some particularly vocal people belong to it. The people
who have been most annoying online (and I know who they are) are not
Django cheerleaders either.
Some people have been offended by a few comments of mine like "[that
piece of software] is horrible" or "building an ORM is not rocket
science". In there first case the comment just did not come out right
and I apologized. In the second case I stand by what I said.
I personally care more about design and integrity of the framework
than its popularity.
Massimo
waTR
on building good web apps and websites using web2py. Let the work
speak for itself.
All we need is one or two big successes...
Thadeus Burgess
Something open source, that is better than wordpress, or trac, or
<insert other open source project out there currently written in
another language>?
Or something written in a corporate environment that can't be released
or even anything shared about it due to legality issues?
There are many web2py apps that are being used in business, much more
internal "enterprisey" (meaning used in business) than open source
web2py apps.
Web2py's aim is to be "enterprisey" not "open sourcey". Thats just my
impression however. And as stated, because of this, there will always
be less apps that are visible to the public that are actually a
success.
-Thadeus
John Heenan
and accepted brand.
Web2py is exclusively managed by a single academic who gets uptight
about issues that are not relevant to Web2py and for which the time he
puts into Web2py does not provide him with significant financial or
academic reward.
I expect it will only be a matter of time before Massimo decides he
has had enough and decides to moves on. I am not complaining. I am
only stating what I expect. Will web2py will continue to survive?
Hardly.
From an enterprise perspective having a project largely tied to a
single person is never good. For example I have seen an earnings
forecast from a multi billion dollar corporation pushing new
technologies stating a risk for prospectors is whether key personnel
continue to stay with the company or not.
I and many others do not care what the real motivations for web2py
are. Frankly they are irrelevant. The fact that Massimo has chosen in
his reply below to concentrate on a narrow and irrelevant aspect of
web2py speaks volumes. That irrelevant aspect is the failure of web2py
to be accepted in the desired manner at PyCon. PyCon itself is
irrelevant and unimportant to the vast majority of us.
John Heenan
villas
I'm sure that many of us are grateful for your own contributions with
slices etc and realise that you wouldn't be making them if you didn't
see any future; that wouldn't make any sense at all, so your comments
are probably a little tongue in cheek.
Similarly if you thought that Pycon was such an irrelevancy, perhaps
you shouldn't have brought up the topic in the first place. It seems
perverse to bring it up and then criticize someone else for discussing
it. But many of us will just smile at that!
You seem to have missed the fact that many great projects begin with
the inspiration of one person who picks up followers on his route to
success. Most of us believe that Web2py will be a great success, but
who knows? Many of us choose Web2py despite any extra future risk,
because we believe it has sufficient merits to compensate.
I am not sure about the relevancy of your own observations here about
multi-billion corporations, but one thing's for sure, they not
evolving at our pace, and most of us are streets behind Massimo!
--David
mdipierro
Even if a project is open source somebody must be responsible for
ownership of the trademark and copyright (even if it is declared to be
GPL somebody has to be responsible for making that statement). Usually
it is a company or a foundation (which is also a company) and
companies unless they are public are owned by one or few people (look
ate Rails and 37 signals). I have not formed a company yet because I
do not see what difference it makes if I own the trademark of if a
company that I own owns the trademark.
I am interested instead in forming a company or perhaps an association
or a consortium for the purpose of helping users get consulting
contracts, help them with legal matters, and prove long term support
to their clients.
I am not sure what the best way to go about this. I am not sure what
the legal status of such entity should be. One year ago we had long
discussion on this list about creating an Open Source Corporation,
whatever that means. Some have suggested a consortium of small
companies that provide web2py support, some have proposed an
association that provides certification. Nothing happened but I am
still very much interested in this and very much interested in
suggestions.
Massimo
Mengu
it releasing some widely used and mostly needed applications developed
with web2py? or a big web site that is developed with web2py? as far
as i know django doesn't power, for example a social network that is
widely used. but why people prefer django? because of its
documentation? because of it is advertised and suggested everywhere?
should we provide some command line tools? is appadmin a bad idea? are
people scared of it? do they just want to fire up their terminals and
start writing things? another question is what /should/ web2py have
that others don't. we can study on them, we can add more features. we
cannot say web2py is not growing, it is growing pretty fast, we are
seeing new faces every day in the group or IRC. more people know
web2py more they like it.
John Heenan
Feel good statements that "most of us are streets behind Massimo" is
frankly impractical and unhelpful. Nor do I like the implication that
somehow I am 'not behind Massimo'. Also the multi billion company I
was referring to as an example of the has nothing to do with web
technology. It is a company that is part of a ruthless multi trillion
dollar real economy that helps provides the cheap equipment and the
enormous cash that floats around, and so allows web developers to
indulge their fantasies.
Let me spell it out.
A) Web2py is not popular, as evidenced by PyCon.
B) I provided evidence that attempting to make web2py popular is not
healthy and will potentially lead to the destruction of web2py
C) Massimo appears angst ridden by the non inclusion of web2py at
PyCon to a desired level. Regrettably this still needs to be properly
resolved.
D) However PyCon is frankly irrelevant and unimportant to web2py and
to most of us. Who cares about a bunch of largely self-important nerds
who desperatley need to be told they are loved, valued and important,
although some of course are important? I have posted before on this
issue from a social perpective at
http://www.google.com/url?url=http://groups.google.com/g/4247fb7b/t/2581102cdc95e75a/d/b32649dc01623837%3Fq%3D%23b32649dc01623837&ei=85-QS6j-KpjYkATprYHqBg&sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&source=groups&usg=AFQjCNFPrtwZCs9f2TZc-oZEKx5CojE6VQ
E) Projects that depend on a single person are risky, whether they be
opens source projects or private propriety projects backed by multi
billion dollar corpoation who issues warnings to investors they are
dependent on key personnel.
F) We cannot reasonably expect Massimo to keep up the pace he is. Also
there appears to be little in the way of financial and academic reward
for his efforts
G) Web2py is sufficiently different in style and and approach that the
current skill level and interest does not exist to take the load off
Massimo and let him just accept or reject patches. This appears to be
the Linux model and to a certain extent the Python model. For example
Guido do not write the new version of the GIL following the exposure
of the 'Beazly Effect'.
H) Massimo is now open to discussion about a foundation.
As I said, we need to be realistic. Not well meaning.
John Heenan
mdipierro
As I argued that is not a good measure of popularity.
Using google trends I estimate we have passed TG and CherryPy as
popularity.
> C) Massimo appears angst ridden by the non inclusion of web2py at
> PyCon to a desired level. Regrettably this still needs to be properly
> resolved.
LOL. Not true. I just wish PyCon was organized as any of the "other"
conferences I go to. Where people submit papers and they are evaluated
by reviewers assigned blindly instead than by interested parties who
cherry pick what they want to review.
> D) However PyCon is frankly irrelevant and unimportant to web2py and
> to most of us.
Looking at growth of users I see a continuous exponential growth.
There is no jump associated to special events. This means that yes
PyCon is irrelevant as a means to achieve more popularity but it is
not irrelevant as a measure of such popularity. It is not a good
measure of popularity (as I argued above) but people perceive it as
such (you did for example).
Anyway. Please lets' stop brining up PyCon it is not healty.
> E) Projects that depend on a single person are risky, whether they be
> opens source projects or private propriety projects backed by multi
> billion dollar corpoation who issues warnings to investors they are
> dependent on key personnel.
web2py does not depend on a single person. There are at least 50
people here who really know how web2py works inside, have contributed
to it, and continue to improve it. If I were to go stop my involvement
(and it is not going to happen), they could pick up immediately.
Currently my job is not so much that of coding web2py as much as
keeping stuff out. Every one wants to push web2py is this or that
direction and, in order to keep it consistent with its original
philosophy sometime I have to say no. That is my job and I do not
believe this can be done efficiently by a committee.
> F) We cannot reasonably expect Massimo to keep up the pace he is. Also
> there appears to be little in the way of financial and academic reward
> for his efforts
Even if I did not it would not be a problem.
> G) Web2py is sufficiently different in style and and approach that the
> current skill level and interest does not exist to take the load off
> Massimo and let him just accept or reject patches. This appears to be
> the Linux model and to a certain extent the Python model. For example
> Guido do not write the new version of the GIL following the exposure
> of the 'Beazly Effect'.
Almost all of the changes I commit now are written by other people.
The logs reflect that.
> H) Massimo is now open to discussion about a foundation.
I am. I am always been. Although for different reasons that you want
it for. You advocate a legal entity for the purpose of deciding the
direction of web2py development. I do not. I advocate a legal entity
for the purpose of better serving users of the framework, not
developers.of the framework.
villas
> ... one thing's for sure, [multi-billion orporations] are not
> evolving at our pace, and most of us are streets behind Massimo!
You said:
>> Feel good statements that "most of us are streets behind Massimo"
>> is frankly impractical and unhelpful. Nor do I like the implication
>> that somehow I am 'not behind Massimo'.
John,
'Streets ahead/behind' is an expression which indicates a big
difference. It has nothing to do with 'feeling good' or 'supporting
someone'.
My statement above means that Web2py is evolving faster than the
systems in multi-billion dollar corporations, and Massimo is more
technically advanced than most of us.
Of course it is always up to the individual whether they take offence
when none is intended. This thread was created to examine the results
of the questionaire, which was clearly intended to be partly fun.
When you next have an attack of profound gravitas, you might consider
starting your own 'extremely serious' thread. Perhaps, 'Is Web2py
doomed?' or something like that. Just a suggestion, so we all might
know what we're walking into.
--David
mdipierro
I do own a software company (http://metacryption.com) but I always
kept web2py separated from it.
I own the trademark and copyright on web2py, not Metacryption.
Metacryption provides consulting services on web2py and sells long
term support contracts. This has been useful because a few people (in
particular government agencies) asked for that. This is not an
exclusivity of metacryption. Any of you can sell support contracts.
Metacryption predates web2py and was not founded with it in mind but
it is an LLC, has business insurance, a really nice office with desks
and conference room in Chicago. Although it serves me well, it was not
designed to serve this community. That is what needs to be addressed.
Massimo
John Heenan
is.
John Heenan
John Heenan
control taking its audience for idiots. It is almost enough to make me
want to move away from Web2py.
A lot of us would feel a lot safer if there was at least one well
known project using Web2py that generates a lot of money.
Django and Pylons are not as clever as Web2py. But they are used by
serious money making enterprises.
Linux is safe, it is used in serious enterprise. Python is safe. For
example Google's front end is built on Python.
We really need acceptance that there are real problems with the long
terms prospects of Web2py based on expected patterns. We don't need
glib answers. Goggle trends only proves Web2py has some measure of
relative popularity entry in the Google search engine. I notice you
did not include Django and Pylons in your trends. Not that it really
matters anyway.
Just one big money making project using Web2py would be enough to keep
a lot of us happy that Web2py MAY have a real future.
Web2py represents a serious investment in time for web developers. Web
developers want to know that the investment is worthwhile taking.
Those who employ web developers need to know that the infrastructure
developers put in place can be maintained and built upon. As things
stand, investing time in Django or Pylons looks like a far safer
investment, even though they are not as clever. This needs to be
acknowledged.
I started using Web2py because I really needed a quick solution. If my
web sites grows and I need to employ people I will seriously consider
porting the web site over to Django or Pylons first, if I don't see
better prospects for Web2py. Rather ironic, use Web2py for
prototyping, not the real world.
John Heenan
mdipierro
Anyway...
Do you see any technical reason why Django or Pylons would be better
than web2py for production sites other than size of their communities
at the time they have been around?
Is it true that the Pylons community is larger than the web2py one? Do
we have any data to compare? I find google trends useless for Django
and Pylons since they are common popular meaning other then the
frameworks.
Massimo
Mengu
people from ours. but turbogears is always around 50 people.
weheh
- The road to success for web2py is more / better doc and more /
better apps, whether private or public.
- John Heenan is correct in stating that web2py will only be
successful if, long term, there is support for its development and
enhancement by more than Massimo. I believe there is already such a
movement and that it already transcends Massimo.
- John's tone sounds cranky to me -- he may wish to moderate it if he
wants to be heard seriously.
- Also, John, just because you are unaware of contracts that are
paying money for web2py development doesn't mean that these don't
exist. In this case, it just means that you are not in the know.
- Massimo, do not worry about setting up a shell company to provide
support and protection for web2py-ers. I and other happy web2py-ers
are already executing on contracts that make them money for developing
and supporting web2py-based apps. Let the free market do its thing and
don't be concerned about providing us with a shell for protection. We
don't need it. If we're serious, we provide our own shell for
protection. At a minimum, it's called a LLC and costs less than $100
to set up.
- Web2py is already developing a brand. The key is to enable people
who are passionate about web2py to be able to carry on their work
uninterrupted. This means providing timely code updates with new
functionality, good support for bug fixes, and a vibrant forum for
sharing ideas and apps. Those who are passionate about it will extol
its virtues organically. Malicious detractors should be actively
debunked.
Energy seeks the lowest potential via the path of least resistance. If
web2py provides a much easier way to develop websites than other
methods, it will prevail. If it's only incrementally better and django
and others copy web2py, then there could be a fight and it's likely
the bigger player with most installed base will win. I think web2py
currently provides the lowest energy path to building rich, dynamic
sites. That's why I have and continue to be a big proponent of good
doc that's freely available. I think the new doc website is the single
most important thing to emerge in favor of web2py in the last year.
Yes, the word should be spread. Probably after apps have been built.
But in the mean time, if web2py is my secret weapon, then so be it.
When I can come back up for air from my web2py app development, I will
extol its virtues at Pycon or equivalent. But frankly, I have so many
things I want to do with web2py I would rather build than talk at this
time.
Thadeus Burgess
What do you constitute as a "Big Money Making Project"?
I work for a fairly large company, we use web2py for internal uses.
These internal applications generate the company millions of dollars a
year in savings by automating aspects of the business. You don't think
web2py is used in "Serious Enterprise"! If this is not "Serious
Enterprise" then I don't know what the hell is.
Would you consider this a "big money making project"? What you really
mean to say is you want a big project that is sold for public
consumption (like quickbooks) instead of internal usage (like UPS
routing software).
I also know handful of other developers on this list that use web2py
for internal usage. In fact, most of the apps that are created in
web2py are concealed behind NDA agreements, so obviously you wont hear
anything about them.
Your saying "If web2py isn't popular, then its not worth using, but
its not advantageous to make the framework popular". Your
contradicting yourself from one post to another. Though I agree, the
way to make web2py more popular is to make web2py better and let its
awesomeness get more users.
I am getting to know web2py quite well, unfortunately my time must be
devoted to developing my companies internal apps, instead of
contributing to web2py. Again, there are many other developers on this
list who know web2py just as well. In fact most of the latest commits
have been submitted by contributors, Massimo's job lately has only
been to approve/disapprove changes and to make sure nothing breaks
web2py idioms.
-Thadeus
villas
Suffice it to say, I am surprised you would be so rude and indignant
about your difficulty in understanding plain English and recognising
the extraordinary capabilities of your free 'prototyping' tool, and I
wish you every success in making sense of it all.
-David
Yarko Tymciurak
This is dangerously teetering on "name callng" - please be careful.
Everyone has the right to their opinion, strong or otherwise - there
is not need to attack / call names.
As for "plain english" - while I do not want anything with this
"marketing" discussion (I have seen this repeat over the years, to the
same benefit - none useful which I can discern) - I would agree that I
read the post which this original comment was directed towards, and
too had trouble finding "the point" --- but I suspect it was because
that post too, perhaps,
was littered with inuendos:
- streets ahead/behind ? not sure what you were driving at;
- evolving faster than corporations? maybe, but how is that relevant
to this discussion, what was the point? (I could not tell - nor do I
care to hear the answer)
- "always up the the individual" --- this looked like a sideways
attack to me; again, not sure for what point / purpose (to try to
socially "sensor" John, because you were uncomfortable with what he
said?)
- "profound gravitas": you seem to be asking, somewhat indirectly
the poster to stay out of your thread.
I am not interested in your response, nor do I need one.
But for the community at large, I would poitn out:
Despite your taste / distaste with the way the "maybe you had a
point" response was posted - nevertheless, it seems to have som
merit.
Name calling, "cat fighting" I (for one) definitely do not welcome -
here nor anywhere.
Reign yourselves in - a community works by listening, acceptance, and
tolerance - even, and most especially in the face of disagreements.
- Yarko
>
> -David
villas
IMO the central point here should be about rudeness rather than
clarity. You imply that it is correct to be rude about something
misunderstood, but I think you are wrong about that.
In any case, whether you are wrong or not, please accept my apologies
for any disquiet I have caused you :-)
Best wishes,
-David
Yarko Tymciurak
> Yarko, on reflection my post was not so clear, it is true. However,
> IMO the central point here should be about rudeness rather than
> clarity.
I appreciate this move on your part towards civility - ultimately, we
can only be responsible for nothing more than how _we_ ourselves
behave.
The central point here, I suggest, is about web2py topics. From
where I stood (and this is not to blame someone - it is how we humans
tend to be) what one might call rudeness came from more than one
place - and I can unequivocably say that name-calling, trying to
change someone elses behavior is in this camp (i.e. "rude", at least
by a dictionary definition of "being rough").
> You imply that it is correct to be rude about something
> misunderstood, but I think you are wrong about that.
I think rude has many cultural connotations, and what one finds rude,
another would not - however, owning your own behavior, refraining from
name-calling universally has impacts to which I always feel confident
in responding to.
> In any case, whether you are wrong or not, please accept my apologies
> for any disquiet I have caused you :-)
I appreciate your gesture. My disquiet is revolved around preserving
the sense of community in a ... well... community.
> Best wishes,
> -David
To civility! /*raises glass high*/
Kind regards,
Yarko
Richard
I totally agree with that comment. Trying to convince Django people is
not good use of time/resources - they already have a quite good
framework and have largely made a conscious choice to use it after
evaluating other solutions.
Better to go after the much larger body of PHP/ASP/JSP programmers who
aren't aware how productive Python/web2py is.
Richard
On Mar 2, 1:12 pm, Wobmofo <muito...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There is a very interesting Pylons page on branding:http://wiki.pylonshq.com/display/pylonscommunity/Brand+Strategy+Notes
> There is one thing I haven't understood (if a native english speaker
> could explain me) : Externalisation : How you come across.
>
> I created a survey for web2py. GO answer it :https://spreadsheets.google.com/viewform?formkey=dEtDeUp1VFlqVnVXSFdO...