Identifying problems and proposing solutions for the Watir community

14 views
Skip to first unread message

Jason Darling

unread,
Sep 21, 2007, 1:49:38 AM9/21/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
To all Watir Users,

In the 1-2 years I have been using Watir, this community has grown very fast.  I believe we all are happy that this tool is growing in popularity and in acceptance with our respective employer(s).  However, I have seen- and disussed with other local Watir users- some growing pains.  In fact, from talking to our local Watir user group in Austin the other night, I know that there are qualified/experienced users who are not engaging the community because of some of these 'growing pains' mentioned below:

Growing Pains
1) a lot of duplicate emails/posts, especially by new users
2) emails/posts describing a situation and asking for assistance without including any code.  It can be difficult to understand and help people without the source HTML and/or Ruby code
3) a lack of respect for others by asking for help 'real time'
4) a lack of writing in English- I am referring to people using SMS, chatspeak, etc.  Examples of this are 'pls' = please, 'R U' = Are you, etc.  I personally find this very annoying.  I, like you, am a professional tester and find this to be unprofessional when communicating with colleagues.  This is not a chat room, but an email/post that is being composed on a computer with a full keyboard, not a cell phone or blackberry.


I, along with some of you, belong to the Software-Testing group by James Bach and Cem Kaner on yahoo.  Before one can join, there is list of rules and guidelines that you must read and agree to.  Then, you must send a reply back to them telling them your name and why you want to join the group.  Only then will they grant you permission to join the group.  While I am not suggesting- at least not yet- something so strict, I have come up with a list of solutions to assist in making this user-group better for both new and old members below:

Solutions
1) SEARCH before sending an email/writing a post;  chances are, someone has already asked the same question!
2) include Watir and HTML code in originating emails/posts as much as possible
3) use real names in posts/emails
4) be respectful of others;  remember, Bret, the core team, and advanced users are colleagues and do not work for you;  these people are volunteering their time and experience to help the community free of charge
5) no use of SMS/chatspeak
6) making a Wiki page for new users that must be read by all new users when they join.  This could include this set norms/guidelines I am suggesting, a link to the getting started page, or Bret's latest tutorial

Feel free to suggest more problems or solutions.

Cheers,
Jason Darling

Željko Filipin

unread,
Sep 21, 2007, 11:15:15 AM9/21/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
Jason,

Great post. I would like to add a thought or two.

When posting to Watir General, please give enough of information so we could understand your problem. A snippet of HTML that you have problem with and a line or two of your Ruby code that tries to do something with that HTML will do. Just to make myself clear:

- Do not give too much irrelevant information. The whole HTML of your page or your entire Ruby script is too much.
- Do not give too little information. Please, do not make me ask this questions again and again:
-- What did you do?
-- What did you expect?
-- Why do you mean by not working?
-- Can you please post relevant snippet of your HTML and Ruby code?  

Noticed relevant? I really do not have time to browse through entire HTML pages and Ruby scripts. Really.

I intended to make a page at Watir wiki with such information, but never got the time. Well, now that the content is here, creating wiki page is just a minute of work.

I am just not sure that Jason's post, this post, or wiki page will make a difference. Well, we can try.

Željko
--
ZeljkoFilipin.com

Bret Pettichord

unread,
Sep 26, 2007, 1:21:23 PM9/26/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
Jason wrote a thoughtful note, and i will respond in detail below.

Jason Darling wrote:
> To all Watir Users,
>
> In the 1-2 years I have been using Watir, this community has grown
> very fast. I believe we all are happy that this tool is growing in
> popularity and in acceptance with our respective employer(s). However,
> I have seen- and disussed with other local Watir users- some growing
> pains. In fact, from talking to our local Watir user group in Austin
> the other night, I know that there are qualified/experienced users who
> are not engaging the community because of some of these 'growing
> pains' mentioned below:
>

> /Growing Pains/


> 1) a lot of duplicate emails/posts, especially by new users

I agree. I mostly ignore these, especially when i know that there are
solutions in the archives and the sender gives no indication that they
have read the archives.


> 2) emails/posts describing a situation and asking for assistance
> without including any code. It can be difficult to understand and help
> people without the source HTML and/or Ruby code

Sometimes, I will ask for this, but I am finding myself actually
ignoring these posts more and more. One problem may simply be that
people don't know what to show. I'm not sure how to really make this better.


> 3) a lack of respect for others by asking for help 'real time'

I never read posts with headlines such as "URGENT HELP NEEDED". Rather,
I respond based on the care that the poster has taken in writing their
request in a form that can be understood by others.


> 4) a lack of writing in English- I am referring to people using SMS,
> chatspeak, etc. Examples of this are 'pls' = please, 'R U' = Are you,
> etc. I personally find this very annoying. I, like you, am a
> professional tester and find this to be unprofessional when
> communicating with colleagues. This is not a chat room, but an
> email/post that is being composed on a computer with a full keyboard,
> not a cell phone or blackberry.

Personally, i don't find this to be a problem when all the other
elements of clear communication are in play. On the other hand, i do
find that this kind of short hand often indicates a lack of general
thoughtfulness in the writing.


> I, along with some of you, belong to the Software-Testing group by
> James Bach and Cem Kaner on yahoo. Before one can join, there is list
> of rules and guidelines that you must read and agree to. Then, you
> must send a reply back to them telling them your name and why you want
> to join the group. Only then will they grant you permission to join
> the group.

This group was never set up with similar rules. If someone wants to set
up a Watir list that is moderated and has a strict set of rules of play,
I would love to join it. But i don't have the time/energy right now to
moderate such a list. And I think this list should remain open, although
a set of guidelines are certainly welcome.


> While I am not suggesting- at least not yet- something so strict, I
> have come up with a list of solutions to assist in making this
> user-group better for both new and old members below:
>

> /Solutions/


> 1) SEARCH before sending an email/writing a post; chances are, someone
> has already asked the same question!

I agree.


> 2) include Watir and HTML code in originating emails/posts as much as
> possible

I agree. I do think that people often don't realize what they should be
showing us, but they certainly could be trying harder.


> 3) use real names in posts/emails

This is a requirement on Cem and James list, but has never been cited as
a requirement here. The only way to enforce this would be for someone to
moderate subscriptions. Currently this is not done. Does anyone want to
volunteer to do this? It's a lot of work.


> 4) be respectful of others; remember, Bret, the core team, and
> advanced users are colleagues and do not work for you; these people
> are volunteering their time and experience to help the community free
> of charge

Very true.


> 5) no use of SMS/chatspeak

Like i said before, this doesn't annoy me they way it annoy's Jason.
Shoot, i don't even capitalize "i".


> 6) making a Wiki page for new users that must be read by all new users
> when they join. This could include this set norms/guidelines I am
> suggesting, a link to the getting started page, or Bret's latest tutorial

+1. I would be happy to cite such a page so that new subscribers saw it
and also feature it prominently on wtr.rubyforge.org.


> Feel free to suggest more problems or solutions.

One of the problems you run into in a list like this is enforcement. Cem
and James' list is moderated and they won't post any emails that don't
meet their rules. Since this is an unmoderated list, how do you propose
to enforce rules such as these?

Anyway, thanks for raising these issues. The quality of discussion on
this list has declined over the past year, and i think it is worth while
to find ways to improve it.

Bret

--
Bret Pettichord
Lead Developer, Watir, http://wtr.rubyforge.org
Blog, http://www.io.com/~wazmo/blog

Željko Filipin

unread,
Sep 28, 2007, 6:53:02 AM9/28/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
On 9/26/07, Bret Pettichord <br...@pettichord.com> wrote:
Since this is an unmoderated list, how do you propose
to enforce rules such as these?

Well, I would not enforce anything. I think that this list should stay unmoderated.

What _could_ help:

- make a wiki page with guidelines for posting (I volunteer)
- send text of that page to all new users (I could not find that option at group settings page)
- send that text every first day of the month to the list, just like a reminder (I volunteer)
- when there is a post that does not follow guidelines, reply with a link to wiki page (I volunteer)

What do you think?

Željko

Željko Filipin

unread,
Sep 28, 2007, 10:47:40 AM9/28/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
On 9/28/07, Željko Filipin <zeljko....@gmail.com> wrote:
- make a wiki page with guidelines for posting (I volunteer)

The first draft.

http://wiki.openqa.org/display/WTR/Guidelines+for+Posting+to+Watir+General+Google+Group

Please take a look. It is a wiki page, so if you want something do add or edit (or delete), go ahead. The page is still not linked from anywhere, so I the community thinks it is not a good idea, we can always delete it.

Željko

Max Russell

unread,
Sep 28, 2007, 10:50:34 AM9/28/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com

I think example DOs and DON’Ts next to the guideline entries might help;

 

For instance, if someone is newer to WATiR and/or coding in general, they may provide the whole of a script and the entire page, perhaps showing an example snippet of code and the page it relates to would make it clearer what is expected.

 

 

Jeezo. I must get better at punctuating sentences.

 


From: watir-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:watir-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Željko Filipin
Sent: 28 September 2007 15:48
To: watir-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [wtr-general] Re: Identifying problems and proposing solutions for the Watir community

eljko

 


Jason Darling

unread,
Sep 28, 2007, 11:17:35 AM9/28/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
Zeljko, Paul,

Nice work on the wiki. I agree completely that the list should be unmoderated. I like the idea of having it sent out monthly as well as having it seen by new users(if there is a setting to do so).

Good suggestion Max.

Cheers,
Jason

Željko Filipin

unread,
Oct 1, 2007, 1:29:51 PM10/1/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
The month has just started. It is a great time to send text of Guidelines for Posting to Watir General Google Group page to the group. Should I do it (this and every month)?

Željko

Jason Darling

unread,
Oct 1, 2007, 2:08:10 PM10/1/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
I say go for it Zeljko.

Jason

Jeff Fry

unread,
Oct 1, 2007, 3:04:11 PM10/1/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
I think the FAQ could theoretically help here as well...but it needs some maintenance.

I just added a section for AJAX, and updated How to search the mailing list to use the googlegroup, not the old list. I'll try to update at least some other low hanging fruits ( e.g. pointing to the old user guide) by next Monday.

Cheers,
Jeff

Randall Biagi

unread,
Oct 1, 2007, 3:14:33 PM10/1/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
Thanks Jeff! This is like the last issue I think I have to overcome before I can script tests for most of the site. I will look into it!
Best Regards-
Randy

Randall Biagi
Information Technology Branch
Calif. Department of Fish and Game
1807 13th Street, Suite 201
Sacramento, CA 95811-7137
USA
916-324-6305
rbi...@dfg.ca.gov


>>> "Jeff Fry" <jeff...@gmail.com> 10/1/2007 12:04 PM >>>


I think the FAQ could theoretically help here as well...but it needs some
maintenance.

I just added a section for AJAX, and updated How to search the mailing list
to use the googlegroup, not the old list. I'll try to update at least some

other low hanging fruits (e.g. pointing to the old user guide) by next
Monday.

Cheers,
Jeff

Bret Pettichord

unread,
Oct 1, 2007, 5:10:19 PM10/1/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
Željko Filipin wrote:
> The page is still not linked from anywhere...
I just added a link to this page from the Google Group welcome message,
which is on the group's home page and is also sent to new subscribers.

Željko Filipin

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 4:54:03 AM10/2/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
On 9/28/07, Max Russell <mrus...@inpses.co.uk> wrote:

I think example DOs and DON'Ts next to the guideline entries might help;

Sounds interesting.

perhaps showing an example snippet of code and the page it relates to would make it clearer what is expected.

Are you willing to post an example (or even add it to wiki)?

Željko

Max Russell

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 4:58:53 AM10/2/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com

Errrrmmmmm…..

 

Yes?

 

Won’t be immediately as I’ve got a fair amount to do, but I’ll try and get to it ASAP….

 


From: watir-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:watir-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Željko Filipin
Sent: 02 October 2007 09:54
To: watir-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [wtr-general] Re: Identifying problems and proposing solutions for the Watir community

 

On 9/28/07, Max Russell <mrus...@inpses.co.uk> wrote:

eljko


Željko Filipin

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 5:01:45 AM10/2/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com
On 10/2/07, Max Russell <mrus...@inpses.co.uk> wrote:

Yes?


Glad to hear that. :)

Won't be immediately as I've got a fair amount to do, but I'll try and get to it ASAP….


Take your time. There are no deadlines.

Željko

Max Russell

unread,
Oct 2, 2007, 5:02:57 AM10/2/07
to watir-...@googlegroups.com

There are NEVER deadlines, just milestones zipping past.

 


From: watir-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:watir-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Željko Filipin
Sent: 02 October 2007 10:02
To: watir-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [wtr-general] Re: Identifying problems and proposing solutions for the Watir community

 

On 10/2/07, Max Russell <mrus...@inpses.co.uk> wrote:

Yes?


Glad to hear that. :)

 

Won't be immediately as I've got a fair amount to do, but I'll try and get to it ASAP....


Take your time. There are no deadlines.

eljko

 


Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages