Answering incomplete requests

[Bret Pettichord]

This is a note to those of you who are answering other people's
questions here. The rest of you can stop reading.

Really. If you stay I'll just hurt your feelings.

Ok. We need to have a frank discussion. We're getting a lot of crappy
questions.

There are a lot of requests for help coming in where the requester is
posting way too little information for any one to possibly help them.
And what's worse, you ask for more info and they reply with a lot of
blather, but don't actually give you the information that we need to
answer their questions.

I've been getting sucked into this myself lately. I feel bad for them. I
want to help. "When you say it doesn't work, are you getting an error
message?" How many times do we need to ask this here? And then they
reply, telling us they tried something else, but it didn't work either,
and they still don't give us an error message! Or they give us just part
of the error message. Or they leave out the stack trace. I guess they
assume that because the stack trace looks like a bunch of gibberish, it
won't help us either. You'd almost think that maybe they don't know
anything about testing software or how to write a bug report.

I learned how to extract a stack trace from a core file 20 years ago so
that I could include it in my bug reports. With Ruby it just gets
printed out. It's just a matter of cut and paste.

"Can we see your script?". "Have you read the FAQ?" "What have you
tried?" -- How many times do we have to ask these questions?

What can we do about it?

1. Stop responding to incomplete requests. Maybe they will repost with
more information. Maybe not. Anyway, just ignore them.
2. Humiliate them and question their right to claim to be a tester if
they can't even report a problem correctly. Make it clear that Watir is
only for testers who have some basic competence.
3. What else?

Bret

--
Bret Pettichord
Lead Developer, Watir, www.watir.com
Blog, www.io.com/~wazmo/blog
Twitter, www.twitter.com/bpettichord

[Chris]

> 1. Stop responding to incomplete requests. Maybe they will repost with
> more information. Maybe not. Anyway, just ignore them.
> 2. Humiliate them and question their right to claim to be a tester if
> they can't even report a problem correctly. Make it clear that Watir is
> only for testers who have some basic competence.
> 3. What else?

2. is a bad option. That one nearly killed the Perl community a
decade ago, and it's still an issue.

one option might be to emulate the Perl community of the time and
start a 'watir-beginners' list, with a commitment from some veterans
to spend time there, but emphasize that it is a list for newbies to
help each other.

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Bret Pettichord <br...@pettichord.com> wrote:
> 1. Stop responding to incomplete requests. Maybe they will repost with
> more information. Maybe not. Anyway, just ignore them.

Until I get some time for a longer reply, I just want to say I will ignore bad questions.

Željko
--
watir.com - community manager
watirpodcast.com - host

[Jason Trebilcock]

Seems to me, if we're receiving 'incomplete requests', then maybe there's a way to drive towards more complete requests.

In the LoadRunner forum on SQAForums, they're pretty militant about getting environment information upfront before they'll answer questions.

Maybe if we adopted some sort of a set of questions to be answered, then we might get some more thorough questions and be better able to provide answers.

Something akin to:

Ruby version:

Watir version:

OS/browser versions:

Code:

HTML:

What's wrong/not working/whatever (how 'bout an error message?):

Granted, there are some questions (and/or people) for whom this might be a little ridiculous...but it could make for an easy template to spit back at the incomplete request.

Like you said, it really isn't terribly different from someone logging a defect/enhancement/whatever. So a little pushback, I think, might get things moving in a better direction.

[Bret Pettichord]

Chris wrote:
>
> one option might be to emulate the Perl community of the time and
> start a 'watir-beginners' list, with a commitment from some veterans
> to spend time there, but emphasize that it is a list for newbies to
> help each other.

Any one interested in doing this?

[Bret Pettichord]

Jason Trebilcock wrote:
> Seems to me, if we're receiving 'incomplete requests', then maybe
> there's a way to drive towards more complete requests.
>
> In the LoadRunner forum on SQAForums, they're pretty militant about
> getting environment information upfront before they'll answer questions.
>
> Maybe if we adopted some sort of a set of questions to be answered,
> then we might get some more thorough questions and be better able to
> provide answers.
>
> Something akin to:
> Ruby version:
> Watir version:
> OS/browser versions:
> Code:
> HTML:
> What's wrong/not working/whatever (how 'bout an error message?):
>
> Granted, there are some questions (and/or people) for whom this might
> be a little ridiculous...but it could make for an easy template to
> spit back at the incomplete request.
>
> Like you said, it really isn't terribly different from someone logging
> a defect/enhancement/whatever. So a little pushback, I think, might
> get things moving in a better direction.

I guess it feels like "a little pushback" is what we are doing now,
without much effect.
Check out the top paragraph here:
http://groups.google.com/group/watir-general

Bret

[Tiffany Fodor]

I try to give them a shot and ask for more information. If they don't
provide any, I ignore the question.

One of my favorite things about Watir is the group of really great
people who support it and the patience they showed me when I was just
learning. You're right, though, there are some people who will never
rtfm.

Maybe we could re-word the "Attention Please" section to be more
specific about the information we need and when people post questions
without it, we could just copy/paste that text into the thread. It
might save a bit of time in replying and let people know that we're
serious about including it.

-Tiffany

[Ethan]

Perhaps a wiki page on what information is needed from people in order for them to get help - the initial response could just be a link to that page, and if they don't reply with information that generally conforms to what is required, it gets ignored.

Of course, some people asking questions here don't even seem to know any ruby. Don't think there is much to be done for them, apart from maybe recommending a decent ruby book ... that could go on the wiki too. "Do you know ruby? If not, please read and understand one of these recommended ruby books and then come back to the Watir mailing list."

Ethan

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 11:01 PM, Ethan <note...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps a wiki page on what information is needed from people in order for them to get help

Take a look at the footer of every e-mail from this group. You will find this:

Before posting, please read the following guidelines: http://wiki.openqa.org/display/WTR/Support

[Bret Pettichord]

Bret Pettichord wrote:

> Jason Trebilcock wrote:
>
> Check out the top paragraph here:
> http://groups.google.com/group/watir-general
>
> Bret
>
>

The "guidelines" link was broken. I just fixed it. Maybe that will help.

[Nathan Lane]

Right now, I feel like humiliating people, but I don't really want to deep in my heart. In my about seven years of being a Quality Assurance Professional, I have worked for companies who hire anyone from "college students" to computer scientists to test their software. In my opinion, that may be the root of the problem here. Surprisingly many people who test software don't have a solid background in Computer Science, general programming, software architecture or any related field. For example in the first company I worked for, a lot of people liked to play video games and use social networking software, but I was the only one among twenty of us who had a background in Computer Science. I'm certain that was a reason for me not getting laid off with about half of them. Another problem may have to do with jargon. Because most testers, even if they write automation, are likely not programmers, they may not immediately understand the terminology, such as "stack trace". I do agree with the call for higher quality problem reports. I look often at what people are asking, and it is the same thing over and over again. Most of Watir's users appear not to understand the concept of looking over documentation or digging through a FAQ to determine whether their question was already answered. As a QA Professional, I pride myself in my ability to figure out whether a defect was already written up against a particular product before going on to write up a duplicate defect. But most of the people with whom I have worked over the years don't do this. And when we allow non-QA personnel to help us test, we get four or five dupes...every time!

We have tried to provide templates for users in the past like, Desktop environment, Ruby version, Watir version. But I haven't seen many people try and follow this pattern in asking their questions. What I think it boils down to though is that we have tons of up to date documentation. We should always encourage users to use the latest possible version of Ruby (supported by Watir) and the latest possible version of stable Watir. With Watir.com though, I am having a very hard time ignoring such behavior.

Nathan

--
Nathan Lane
Blog, http://blog.nathandelane.com

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 11:32 PM, Nathan Lane <natham...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Surprisingly many people who test software don't have a solid background in Computer Science, general programming, software architecture or any related field.

I am one of them. But I have a brain, and I know how to use it. Maybe that is the problem.

> With Watir.com though, I am having a very hard time ignoring such behavior.

I am not sure I understood this. Could you elaborate?

Željko

[Nathan Lane]

Hey Zeljko, I didn't mean to offend. By no means must one have a background in a Computer Science related field to understand software testing. I think it helps because in order to test software very effectively I think you must be able to understand it. Anyway, detail-oriented-ism and an eye for problems is far more important. I work with plenty of programmers who couldn't test software to save their lives. No offense to any programmers who can't test software very well either.

With my second statement, I simply mean to say that Watir.com provides a very complete center for learning about Watir, searching through previous posts to watir-general, and so on. There is no excuse for a beginner in my opinion not to first try and look over what documentation is available, including the wiki pages and watir-general. That is what I am trying to say by, "With Watir.com though, I am having a very hard time ignoring such behavior."

Sorry for any confusion.

Nathan

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Nathan Lane <natham...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't mean to offend.

I did not get it as an insult. :) I just wanted to say that I think you just need to have a brain, and you will be able to ask a good question. Maybe it is a language problem. Maybe people just do not know English enough. Maybe we need lists in other languages.

> With my second statement, I simply mean to say that Watir.com provides a very complete center for learning about Watir.

From your previous post I was not sure do you mean that, or that watir.com sucks. Now I know. :) Alister did a great job.

Željko

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:49 PM, Bret Pettichord <br...@pettichord.com> wrote:
> 2. Humiliate them and question their right to claim to be a tester if
> they can't even report a problem correctly. Make it clear that Watir is
> only for testers who have some basic competence.

I do not think this would be a good idea. Crappy questions bug me, but I would like to keep friendly note in the group.

Željko

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:02 PM, Chris <christoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2. is a bad option.  That one nearly killed the Perl community a
> decade ago, and it's still an issue.

+1

I do not want to become one of those cranky unix (and obviously perl) gurus with long beards that reply only with rtm or similar.

> one option might be to emulate the Perl community of the time and
> start a 'watir-beginners' list

We have such list. This is it. Big majority of the posts here (my rough estimate is 99%) are from people new to Watir. We have other lists (wtr-development and wtr-core) that are not for beginners.

> with a commitment from some veterans
> to spend time there

I have committed some time to help people here, but I can not read minds. I need data to help. The problem is not lack of will to help, the problem is that there are a lot of really bad questions.

> but emphasize that it is a list for newbies to
> help each other.

How would you do that?

Željko

[Alan Baird]

I'm for being more firm, but with limits.  We can't help people that can't help themselves - or at least none of us have the time for it.  I believe that people with legitimate questions, that don't know how to ask them or use the right words will keep trying if they are lead in the right direction.  These are the people we want to help.  As long as the prompting for the right information is not condescending, patronizing or rude, it should be fine to direct askers of questions to a canned section of the wiki for more info along with some hint of which guideline they are in violation of.  Those people that are really trying should at least be able to improve their questions.  If they can't figure this out, then my vote is for nobody to answer their e-mail unless the information is provided.

I readily admit that I haven't been as good at this as I should.  It's hard sometimes to realize when the question has been asked already in (several) different threads.  I'll try to be better.  

I think the webpage at: http://wiki.openqa.org/display/WTR/Support is probably sufficient for people to be redirected to.  Possibly subtitle it "why is nobody answering my question??".  I was thinking about one possible section to add: "things you can do that definitely will not get your question answered".  I could add this unless somebody objects.

Alan

[Željko Filipin]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Alan Baird <aba...@bairdsnet.net> wrote:
> I was thinking about one possible section to add: "things you can do that definitely will not get your question answered".  I could add this unless somebody objects.

Please do.

Željko

[Wesley Chen]

So, we will keep the same rule as before? :), I think it doesn't matter.
Everybody grows up from a kid.

Thanks.
Wesley Chen.
For life, the easier, the better.

[Jari Bakken]

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Ethan <note...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps a wiki page on what information is needed from people in order for
> them to get help - the initial response could just be a link to that page,
> and if they don't reply with information that generally conforms to what is
> required, it gets ignored.
>

I totally agree with this. Check out the "Before you ask" section
here: http://wiki.github.com/aslakhellesoy/cucumber/get-in-touch

[Bret Pettichord]

I really like the tone of that page. Maybe we could modify our support
page to sound a little more like this.

[Tim Koopmans]

I also like the tone of that page.

I think it's a really bad idea to either humiliate people or go over-
the-top with rules like SQAForums.

Maybe some people are lazy, others might just be ignorant but I try
not to judge as I don't know their circumstances. The questions I've
answered here and via justaddwatir.com were well placed and helped me
understand watir better in answering them so it's been a positive
experience for me. Guess what I'm saying, the choice is the collective
(ours) as to whether or not poorly described problems get answered!

Cheers
Tim

On Oct 26, 9:36 am, Bret Pettichord <b...@pettichord.com> wrote:
> Jari Bakken wrote:

[Željko Filipin]

I have been thinking about this for a long time, and it just came to me that it is related to this thread. I think the time has come to take Watir support to the next level.

Have you heard about site called Stack Overflow? I use it all the time. Created by Jeff Atwood and Joel Spolsky. If you do not know who they are just google them.

How it works? You log in with openid, ask question, tag it with watir. There is a feed for the tag. We subscribe to the feed and answer questions.

It is the future of support. It is a very useful merge of support forum, digg and wiki with features like tagging questions, closing duplicate questions (with link to original question), voting on good questions and answers (so good and interesting questions and answers float to the top). Since it is also a wiki, questions and answers can be edited (including adding and removing tags). When you type a title for the question and start typing the body, it automatically searches the site and displays similar questions under the title. Just what we need. No more "please search before you ask". The site searches for you.

There are some watir questions already there, but not much. I have put some to try things out:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/watir
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/firewatir

Watin folks use it much more:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/watin

You get points for each up vote you get. There are also badges. Makes answering questions more like a game.

There is added benefit. If we get a question that is for example more ruby related, we can tag it with ruby (if it is not already tagged) and then all users that follow that tag will see it and probably answer.

We could close this group, or leave it only for discussion, and move all support to Stack Overflow. We could make this group moderated, and approve only discussion posts, and reject all support with a note to post ti to Stack Overflow. If we agree on that, I volunteer to do that for the next month, and probably longer if needed.

More information:

http://stackoverflow.com/
http://blog.stackoverflow.com/
http://blog.stackoverflow.com/category/podcasts/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_Overflow

If anybody wants to know more about it, just ask. If this is not appropriate place to talk about it, sent your question to me directly.

What do you think? Has the time to move come? Or do you think we should stay here for now?

Željko

[Mark Anderson]

I also monitor the watir tag at stackoverflow.com.  There have been very few queries there, and if they are of slightly higher quality than the average question here, I think that it is because of the barriers to entry there (OpenID, website vs email, etc). 

 

There is another site that I think might make more sense than stackoverflow.  http://testing.stackexchange.com is a hosted stackoverflow solution that is specific to testing.  It is still young, and does not even have a watir tag yet.

 

I don’t think that either of these solutions is capable of replacing watir-general at this time.

 

I am willing to join and contribute to a watir-beginners list.

 

I also wonder whether some sort of FAQ posted on a regular basis, probably mainly pointing to the wiki/documentation, would help with these problems.

 

                                                /\/\ark

 

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[Željko Filipin]

Hi Mark,

My comments are inline.

2009/10/30 Mark Anderson <mand...@drillinginfo.com>

> I also monitor the watir tag at stackoverflow.com.  There have been very few queries there, and if they are of slightly higher quality than the average question here, I think that it is because of the barriers to entry there (OpenID, website vs email, etc).

I do not think we will get better questions there. We will just have a better tool for dealing with bad questions. Automatic search while entering question might help too.

> There is another site that I think might make more sense than stackoverflow.  http://testing.stackexchange.com is a hosted stackoverflow solution that is specific to testing.

I would prefer that we use stackoverflow if we decide to go there. We get more ruby related questions than testing related.

> I don’t think that either of these solutions is capable of replacing watir-general at this time.

Why do you think so?

> I am willing to join and contribute to a watir-beginners list.

I do not think we need such list. watir-general is that list. You are welcome to contribute here.

> I also wonder whether some sort of FAQ posted on a regular basis, probably mainly pointing to the wiki/documentation, would help with these problems.

I have already tried that. One e-mail each month for months. This is just one thread:

http://groups.google.com/group/watir-general/browse_thread/thread/6252098614f59822

I did not notice any improvement.

Željko

[Bret Pettichord]

Good suggestion. I just set up a login for that site and will start
spending more time there.

Bret

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Bret Pettichord <br...@pettichord.com> wrote:
> Good suggestion. I just set up a login for that site and will start
> spending more time there.

Since three of four* top posters to this group (http://groups.google.com/group/watir-general/about) think moving to Stack Overflow is a good idea, I think it would be good to start the move there.

Since nobody except Bret any myself is really for it, I plan not make any drastic changes. I plan just to change all our documentation to say support is at Stack Overflow and I will leave this groups as it is, but it's use will be encouraged for discussions, while Stack Overflow will be for support. I plan to create a wiki page explaining how to use Stack Overflow.

Anybody thinks that is not a good idea?

Željko

--

* If you take a look at top posters list, you will see my name listed twice, because I have two accounts. I thought it would be more effective to say "three of four" than "top two". :)

[bpett...@gmail.com]

I guess for now, I would say that people should be told that they can
post questions in either location. There are very few people actually
answering watir questions on stackoverflow right now. Basically it is
just you Zeljko, although I did see Mark A make an appearance.

I would like to revise the tone of our support page to be more like
the cucumber page. I haven't really had the time for this, but maybe a
couple of people could work on this. I guess the place to start would
be what would you write in an email to a friend who was new to watir?

Bret

On Nov 2, 8:06 am, Željko Filipin <zeljko.fili...@wa-research.ch>
wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:28 PM, Bret Pettichord <b...@pettichord.com>

[Željko Filipin]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:00 AM, br...@pettichord.com <bpett...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I guess for now, I would say that people should be told that they can
> post questions in either location. There are very few people actually
> answering watir questions on stackoverflow right now. Basically it is
> just you Zeljko, although I did see Mark A make an appearance.

I am afraid if we do not push it, that change will not happen. I will add Stack Overflow to support in the next few days, and we will see if it picks up in the following weeks and months.

> I would like to revise the tone of our support page to be more like
> the cucumber page. I haven't really had the time for this, but maybe a
> couple of people could work on this. I guess the place to start would
> be what would you write in an email to a friend who was new to watir?

I will try to update one of these days, if nobody does it before me. A few people said they would like to help. If you have some time, please do it instead of me. I will do my best to help you with the wiki and all that if you are new. I would rather spend more time in helping somebody learn how to edit wiki than it would take me to edit it myself. I see that as investment in future contributions.

Željko

[Alan Baird]

Bret/Z* - I will update the help page today.

Alan

On Nov 3, 2009 3:23 AM, "Željko Filipin" <zeljko....@wa-research.ch> wrote:

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:00 AM, br...@pettichord.com <bpett...@gmail.com> wrote: > I guess for now...

I am afraid if we do not push it, that change will not happen. I will add Stack Overflow to support in the next few days, and we will see if it picks up in the following weeks and months.

> I would like to revise the tone of our support page to be more like > the cucumber page. I haven...

I will try to update one of these days, if nobody does it before me. A few people said they would like to help. If you have some time, please do it instead of me. I will do my best to help you with the wiki and all that if you are new. I would rather spend more time in helping somebody learn how to edit wiki than it would take me to edit it myself. I see that as investment in future contributions.

Željko

--~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are su...

[Bret Pettichord]

Željko Filipin wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 2:00 AM, br...@pettichord.com

> <mailto:br...@pettichord.com> <bpett...@gmail.com

> <mailto:bpett...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > I guess for now, I would say that people should be told that they can
> > post questions in either location. There are very few people actually
> > answering watir questions on stackoverflow right now. Basically it is
> > just you Zeljko, although I did see Mark A make an appearance.
>
> I am afraid if we do not push it, that change will not happen. I will
> add Stack Overflow to support in the next few days, and we will see if
> it picks up in the following weeks and months.

We've been teaching the larger community to ask questions here for
years. If you ask a Watir question on one of the Ruby forums, you will
likely be sent here.

I'm still trying to understand the pros and cons of stack overflow.
You've convinced me to spend more time there. If you personally think it
is better and would prefer using it, you can tell people that that is
the best way to get an answer from you.

Bret

[Željko Filipin]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Bret Pettichord <br...@pettichord.com> wrote:
> If you personally think it
> is better and would prefer using it, you can tell people that that is
> the best way to get an answer from you.

Stack Overflow is to this group like Git is to trying to remember what you have changed in your code and not using version control.

I will do my best to answer any question tagged watir in Stack Overflow. I am not sure how I would advertise that.

Željko

[Bret Pettichord]

I think we need a page called "Support" at http://watir.com/

It should include Watir General, IRC, Jira and Stack Overflow. Some of
this stuff is on the community page already. Maybe the community page
could focus a little more on how to help (rather than get help).

I also think you are getting frustrated with some of the questions here.
I suggest that you see if maybe you can just reply less to requests that
annoy you. That's what I'm doing.

Bret

[Alan Baird]

I made a first pass at adding some additional stuff to http://wiki.openqa.org/display/WTR/Support.  Let me know what you think and if you can make it better please do.  

Alan

[Željko Filipin]

On Tue, Nov 3, 2009 at 5:49 PM, Bret Pettichord <br...@pettichord.com> wrote:
> I think we need a page called "Support" at http://watir.com/
> It should include Watir General, IRC, Jira and Stack Overflow.

Done. The page is not finished yet, I will work more on it next week. Feedback is welcome.

Željko

[Felipe Knorr Kuhn]

Hello,

Regarding the "Why isn't my question being answered?" section, could you add links to the "How to handle popups" Wiki page in the 4th paragraph?

FK

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[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 12:19 PM, Željko Filipin <zeljko....@wa-research.ch> wrote:
> Done. The page is not finished yet, I will work more on it next week. Feedback is welcome.

I did not post the link:

http://watir.com/support/

Željko

[Željko Filipin]

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:41 PM, Felipe Knorr Kuhn <fkn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Regarding the "Why isn't my question being answered?" section, could you add links to the "How to handle popups" Wiki page in the 4th paragraph?

Would you please do that yourself? It is just a wiki page, everybody can edit it. Please let me know if you need help with the wiki.

Željko

[Felipe Knorr Kuhn]

Done,

I had to reset password first because I haven't logged in ages. :)

FK

Željko

--

[Željko Filipin]

2010/3/5 Felipe Knorr Kuhn <fkn...@gmail.com>

> I had to reset password first because I haven't logged in ages. :)

Thanks for editing the page. I will review it the next week when I continue working on the support page.

Željko

[Tiffany Fodor]

The Support page on Watir.com and the guidelines page on the wiki look
great!

Thanks guys!

-Tiffany

On Mar 5, 6:28 am, Željko Filipin <zeljko.fili...@wa-research.ch>
wrote: