> I was once at a dinner party where I met an HR director looking for
> programmers. Although she was looking for someone with Rails experience, we
> kept talking about the position as she was frustrated by not being able to
> find anyone.

> It turned out that the programmers at her company had done absolutely
> nothing to give her a lay of the land. She had never heard of 37signals and
> didn't realize that they had a job board exclusively for Rails jobs.

> Is this really her fault? I think we can all help make the system work
> better. Keep in mind that HR is responsible for filling all sorts of
> positions (accounting, marketing, legal, customer service, etc...), each
> requiring unique skill sets. If you know that a programming position is
> coming up in your department, make an effort to find whoever will be
> responsible for posting the ad and talk with them. Make sure they understand
> the primary function of the job, and tell them as much as you can about what
> kinds of applicants you'll be getting.

> -Joe

> On Feb 16, 2010, at 12:45 AM, Sandy Smith wrote:

> > So, random thoughts from a hiring manager, speaking entirely for myself,
> not for my company (My team has no open positions, though Forum One is
> hiring):

> > 1) This is perhaps not the best job ad in history but it is not that bad.
> "Mastery" is a very vague word, and nobody wants to advertise for someone
> who's "mediocre" at PHP, etc. So cut them a little slack that word, which
> seems to be the big problem for most people.

> > 2) Learn to read job ads for what they really want. They almost all must
> pass through an HR person who is NOT a programmer, and sometimes vetted
> language is helpfully "punched up" by some editor before going out, not
> realizing they're effectively changing the requirements by using more
> "positive" and "colorful" language. I'm going to use "needless" "quotes"
> some more, "here."

> > 3) When we've worked with recruiters--and I assure you as a hiring
> manager I see the same ratio of good/bad ones (hint: don't call me to ask
> about a position and then demonstrate that you never bothered to visit the
> company website to look at the description we have posted--and hint: when I
> say I don't deal with recruiters and you'll have to talk to the same HR
> person who didn't call you back the last time, you not getting a gig doesn't
> mean I'm suddenly empowered to deal with recruiters...so...don't call me),
> we've usually just supplied a position description to them. They didn't
> alter it much, so the wording may not have changed much if someone from the
> hiring org posted it themselves.

> > 4)  The years of experience and the main technologies mentioned are the
> important parts of a job ad, as are some of the "types of work environment"
> experience credentials. The extra stuff is usually requested by the HR
> person to give them a way to sort through the avalanche of applicants, most
> of whom are barely if at all qualified, who arrive in their inbox. So if
> there is, as I once abused a quasi-governmental agency for requesting, a
> 'magical pony who craps rainbow sherbet is flitting around a meadow
> somewhere thinking to itself, “You know, I think I’d rather have a
> government web job,”' they can find it.

> > 5) The key word is "Drupal." They're not really asking for somebody who
> can invent a new algorithm better than quicksort or even bridge C++ to Ada
> to PL/SQL to PHP or implement a perfect Strategy pattern using techniques
> borrowed from OCaml...they're asking for a PHP web developer who can
> configure, theme, and write some custom modules for Drupal that might work
> with some outside systems that others seem to be responsible for. Your best
> bet is to send in a competently formatted (and spell-checked--seriously, do
> not put "detail-oriented" and have spelling errors) resume and a cover
> letter addressing the important points and showing how your experience
> matches those points.

> > 6) And yeah, if you can't hang some Javascript and CSS with XHTML onto
> those template files, then you're probably not right for the job, and you
> should move on. And start Googling some tutorials because I know I expect
> basic Javascript, CSS, and X/HTML out of even backend PHP developers.

> > 7) There are a lot of people applying for much lower-paying jobs, but
> quite frankly, there are a lot of people who believe in spamming every open
> position they find with the same resume regardless of whether they're
> qualified or not. Trust me, it's really obvious to the people on the other
> side when you do this. You will get much better results if you target your
> application to the position, and skip ones that you know you're not really
> right for. I realize this is hard when you're not currently working, but a
> better effort on likely positions will get you more than minimal effort on
> every position you find.

> > 8) Not every technical team is that great, and even if they are, they
> aren't always great at finding the right people for the job, as the
> temptation is to hire someone like yourself, because hey, you're awesome!
> Even if someone like yourself isn't really right for the job. It's not
> smart, but it's really human. So while I have many issues with recruiters, I
> don't think you can always lay the blame at their feet for not making their
> clients smarter. Who among us hasn't had to swallow our pride and do
> something kinda dumb because the guy with the money said he didn't care, he
> just wanted it that way?

> > 9) If your organization is hiring for a PHP-centric position and you
> haven't posted the job ad here--and there's no legal/contractual reason you
> can't--for heaven's sake, why???

> > 10) None of this is to suggest that recruiters don't have problems of
> bullet-point matching that other people have brought up, or that they
> shouldn't  match candidates to positions using something better than what
> any random HR person can do in order to make them worth the money.

> > Hope this is useful to somebody,
> > Sandy

> > On Feb 15, 2010, at 10:46 PM, D Keith Casey Jr wrote:

> >> jproffer wrote:
> >>> I think its probably safe to say that Nancy isnt going to be posting
> any more jobs here - I know we're all pissed about the situation with
> employers today and how they undervalue our skills, but if we want
> recruiters to continue posting here perhaps we should find another punching
> bag to abuse ;)

> >> Agreed on this too. We should mind our manners.. myself included.
> Whether it's a "great" posting or not, we all benefit from having employers
> actively hunting to hire people on this list.

> >> That said, for recruiters out there, I have some suggestions:

> >> *  Learn a little about the list. Following the policies (which Nancy
> made a good shot at) is a good step.

> >> *  Track the other postings on the list and where they are in terms of
> skills and compensation. I can't imagine that a recruiter would skip this
> for competitive research reasons alone;

> >> *  If possible, bounce the posting off someone you trust in the field. I
> don't mean spam random contacts, but show the listing to the team it's going
> to and collect feedback.

> >> *  If members of said team are on the list, have them post it. I'm much
> more likely to read and potentially pass along a job post from [any one of
> ~40+ contributors] than some random recruiter.

> >> My 0.02,
> >> kc

> >> --
> >> D. Keith Casey, Jr.
> >> CEO, CaseySoftware, LLC
> >> http://CaseySoftware.com

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