RE Welsh in need (reply to Jimmy Daniels)
Blewyn
"Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:lkW08.21523$WQ1.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > So you don't think that (for example) the iron grip of US film companies
> > over cinema distribution, to the detriment of non-Hollywood funded
> > productions, is anything to do with the advance of English.
>
> The advance of the English is of no blame on the English. The World has
> taken the language on board. what's your hang-up? Even Russia are becoming
> quite fluent.
So there you have it. Anyone who opposes the advance of McEnglish has
'hangups'. Anyone who wants to retain some local protection against the
all-devouring Anglo-Saxon multinational media corporations is quite clearly
full of 'hangups', as are those who simply want to protect their own way of
life.
McEnglish - We Own You (tm)
>
> > > I'm in business in N.E.Wales. Please put me in the right direction.
> Please
> > > show me what measures you would take to make Welsh businesses more
> > > profitable and prosperous. I'm all ears! Come on Blewyn, give us your
> > > up-dated policy applicable to Companies. Show everyone what you would
> omit
> > > and amend, to ensure that we are as you say not "dominated"
> >
> > Easy. I would elect a Welsh government, and appoint ministers with a
> brief
> > to develop and protect enterprise in Wales ONLY, rather than hoping that
> > whatever Westminster decides is best for its 58M people also happens to
be
> > beneficial for Wales.
>
> Easy you say,? but you fail to answer the question.
No I don't - the above is exactly the limit of my expertise, but it would be
enough for me to know that capable professionals were running the country
with the single aim of running Wales for the benefit of the Welsh economy
alone. That's your answer.
>
> > > Your note of freedom of speech, I could'nt agree more. Credibility
> somehow
> > > comes with as Jack has iterated to you, "doing as I do not do as I
say".
> > You
> > > left for money. You sold out and failed in Wales. If I experienced
your
> > > failure at any point, I hope that I could at least admit it and adopt
a
> > > philosophy that bore that in mind. You completely ignore this basic
> > > phenomenon and yet adopt the arrogance of what you believe others
should
> > do.
> > >
>
> > Do you have opinions on abortion ? You will never face the choice of
> whether
> > to have one or not - but I'll bet you've got an opinion on the subject.
>
> Who said I have never faced the choice? I did when I was 17.
YOU did NOT face a choice over removing a child from YOUR body. If you
didn't understand that this is the distinction I was making, then there's
really no point continuing this line of debate.
> So yes, I have
> an opinion and that opinion is that the decision is entirely down to the
> couple concerned. You really do need to lead by example Blewyn!
No, I don't - that's the whole point. No-one but Jesus ever lead by example
(and I'm not religious), but it hasn't stopped anyone from debating issues
properly. Moral right and wrongs, and academic arguments remain, no matter
what people do.
> > I'm putting forward an academic argument as to the best strategy for the
> > future of Wales, in an entirely objective manner. No-one has yet
> countered
> > my argument that the language itself is a powerful tool, not only in
> raising
> > the Welsh profile on the world stage (post-independence) but also as a
> > barrier against comptition within the EU.
>
> At last, the truth be told- You want a linguistic barrier.
Not really - more of a greater emphasis on commerce within the language, to
improve local homegrown prospects, output and interest and raise the
international profile of Wales.
There is no linguistic 'barrier' - after all, anyone can learn to speak any
language.
> Precisely the
> accusations delivered by Rod Richards, some three years ago. So this is
the
> linguistic tool that you want put in place for the sake of eliminating
free
> competition that would otherwise be a level keel.
Why not ? It's the right of any people to take advantage of those things
about them that may provide a source of commerce.
>Thank you Blewyn, I've
> waited some considerable time for a pro nationalist to admit to that. Good
> on you! Dear dear, a linguistic obstacle to combat competition. I really
do
> appreciate that you admit to this Blewyn. Credit due!
It's not an obstacle to combat competition - it's a separate commercial
market to which non-speakers do not have access. Presumably you think that
you have a moral right to impose English on everyone, in order that the
English may compete more effectively ?
What next - a demand for the Scottish to stop brewing Whisky, so that
England can produce more Gin ?
<snip>
> Deary me, we are making some progress today! Thank you again. Emergency
> measure eh?
Thinking you were Jack Sais, I was going to admonish you for your unusually
pompous tone. Be gei di gan mul ond cic, ynte Jimmy ?
> > > Answer these four questions for me Blewyn. -
>
> > > If others did in their droves, what you have done and left Wales for
the
> > > same reasons as you, do you think that Wales would be better or less
> > > prosperous for such action?
>
> > Less - although in my case there's no telling whether or not I would
have
> > contributed anythign to the economy by staying.
>
>
> > > Do you think that leaving Wales as you have done is a constructive
step
> > > towards the Language and Welsh Culture preservation?
> >
> > No
>
> Your honesty today overwhelms me
Try it sometime.
> > > Do you think that indeginous Welsh people leaving Wales in large
numbers
> > > would have any adverse or possitive effect towards Wales's perceived
> > Housing
> > > problem?
>
> > The problem is real if you're a native on a local wage, and the
departure
> of
> > indigenous natives has little bearing on the problem given the
tremendous
> > influence of external buying power.
>
> So the problem has nothing or very little to do with indeginous Welsh
people
> leaving. It's entirely the fault of wealthy Englanders? Is this what you
are
> saying?
Pretty much, given that the emigrants are leaving to search for work, and
therefore by definition cannot afford to buy. The prices are determined by
(as I said) external buying power.
> > > Would you feel comfortable in the company of those people who are
> fighting
> > > for the limitation of the influx of Engliah people into Wales?
>
> > I imagine that - as a person they would no doubt consider anglicised - I
> > would enjoy healthy and lively debates with them.
>
> Do you think that they could appreciate your reasons for leaving? If so,
do
> you also think that your particular reasons could be presented and
accepted
> by them if all departing indeginous Welsh presented to them the same
> scenario?
I'm sure that there are those who would not accept my reasons. It's still a
matter for the individual though, one which each and every person has to
abide with themselves. As far as I'm concerned, it's my business and no-one
else's.
What's really odd is that if I was to say "screw Wales they don't deserve a
thing" you and your cohorts would probably respect me more. How perverted
is that ?
Blewyn
--
Blewyn
Jimmy Daniels
Blewyn <ble...@SPAM-ME-NOTbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a21loc$6c1$1...@news0.ifb.net...
> References line getting too long 4 my server...
>
> "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:lkW08.21523$WQ1.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > The advance of the English is of no blame on the English. The World has
> > taken the language on board. what's your hang-up? Even Russia are
becoming
> > quite fluent.
> So there you have it. Anyone who opposes the advance of McEnglish has
> 'hangups'.
It is a hangup to actually oppose. Why should you oppose any language for
that matter. You seem to have it well ingrained in your mind that opposing
English, increases your Welshness. Nothing could be further from the truth.
> Anyone who wants to retain some local protection against the
> all-devouring Anglo-Saxon multinational media corporations is quite
clearly
> full of 'hangups', as are those who simply want to protect their own way
of
> life.
But the problem you have facing you is that the majority of people in Wales
are quite happy to further promote such. The writing is there on the wall
for you in the form that people will continue subscribing to that Anglo
Saxon muti-National media.
> McEnglish - We Own You (tm)
If you are paranoid, then yes.
> > Easy you say,? but you fail to answer the question.
> No I don't - the above is exactly the limit of my expertise, but it would
be
> enough for me to know that capable professionals were running the country
> with the single aim of running Wales for the benefit of the Welsh economy
> alone. That's your answer.
That's a vague reply to a question that asks you to be specific. Fair enough
if that's your limitation. On that note though, who are these capable
professionals that you refer to that perhaps are more capable than the
status quo?
> YOU did NOT face a choice over removing a child from YOUR body. If you
> didn't understand that this is the distinction I was making, then there's
> really no point continuing this line of debate.
You're clearly on a tangent. I answered your question on face value.
> > So yes, I have
> > an opinion and that opinion is that the decision is entirely down to the
> > couple concerned. You really do need to lead by example Blewyn!
> No, I don't - that's the whole point. No-one but Jesus ever lead by
example
> (and I'm not religious), but it hasn't stopped anyone from debating issues
> properly. Moral right and wrongs, and academic arguments remain, no
matter
> what people do.
What a load of waffle Blewyn! Nobody except Jesus lead by example. You are
taking the piss surely?
> > > I'm putting forward an academic argument as to the best strategy for
the
> > > future of Wales, in an entirely objective manner. No-one has yet
> > countered
> > > my argument that the language itself is a powerful tool, not only in
> > raising
> > > the Welsh profile on the world stage (post-independence) but also as a
> > > barrier against comptition within the EU.
> >
> > At last, the truth be told- You want a linguistic barrier.
>
> Not really - more of a greater emphasis on commerce within the language,
to
> improve local homegrown prospects, output and interest and raise the
> international profile of Wales.
Poorly dressed up second time round Blewyn. This is what you said and it's
in context -
"No-one has yet countered my argument that the language itself is a powerful
tool, not only in raising the Welsh profile on the world stage
(post-independence) but also as a barrier against comptition within the EU".
That's using the Language as an obstacle to disadvantage people who can not
speak the language. Hardly a point doing an "U" turn now.
> There is no linguistic 'barrier' - after all, anyone can learn to speak
any
> language.
But you would demand that all people in Wales learn Welsh regardless of the
fact that that is a call from within the 20% for the 80% to change their
ways. The linguistic barrier exists even more so today from people who
desire for example the IWP who advocate as seen on their opening Web page,
i.e Y Fro Gymraeg.
> > Precisely the
> > accusations delivered by Rod Richards, some three years ago. So this is
> the
> > linguistic tool that you want put in place for the sake of eliminating
> free
> > competition that would otherwise be a level keel.
> Why not ? It's the right of any people to take advantage of those things
> about them that may provide a source of commerce.
Why not you say? I'll suggest why not. You want it in place so that people
who fail to make their mark in Wales can play the easier game in life by
deliberately disadvantaging others who can. The tool used to achieve this is
the Welsh language. Is it any wonder that in many parts of Wales that adopt
this policy, end up with a second rate and amateurish workforce? No Country
can create a quality workforce without a multi-National acceptance.
Home-grown only, gives you homegrown crap and if Welsh only is what you
insist on then that's the quality you will get. Thank goodness this will not
spread and become reality
> >Thank you Blewyn, I've
> > waited some considerable time for a pro nationalist to admit to that.
Good
> > on you! Dear dear, a linguistic obstacle to combat competition. I really
> do
> > appreciate that you admit to this Blewyn. Credit due!
>
> It's not an obstacle to combat competition - it's a separate commercial
> market to which non-speakers do not have access. Presumably you think
that
> you have a moral right to impose English on everyone, in order that the
> English may compete more effectively ?
Hardly a point in backtracking now Blewyn. Time for you to realise Blewyn
that the English language is enforced on nobody. It's a choice people make,
regardless of your dissaproval. This is a choice you want to deny people.
You want to insist that a commercial market be adopted to which non-speakers
do not have access. Your words and apartheid at that.
> What next - a demand for the Scottish to stop brewing Whisky, so that
> England can produce more Gin ?
Relevance?
> > Deary me, we are making some progress today! Thank you again. Emergency
> > measure eh?
> Thinking you were Jack Sais, I was going to admonish you for your
unusually
> pompous tone. Be gei di gan mul ond cic, ynte Jimmy ?
Cic arall dwi'n meddwl. It's not a pompous tone Blewyn. Come on you are
talking a lot of twaddle.
> > Your honesty today overwhelms me
>
> Try it sometime.
I'm being honest.
> > So the problem has nothing or very little to do with indeginous Welsh
> people
> > leaving. It's entirely the fault of wealthy Englanders? Is this what you
are saying?
> Pretty much, given that the emigrants are leaving to search for work, and
> therefore by definition cannot afford to buy. The prices are determined
by
> (as I said) external buying power.
Incredible! I would suggest to you that the leaving indeginous are the cause
of the housing problem.
> > Do you think that they could appreciate your reasons for leaving? If so,
> do
> > you also think that your particular reasons could be presented and
> accepted
> > by them if all departing indeginous Welsh presented to them the same
> > scenario?
> I'm sure that there are those who would not accept my reasons. It's still
a
> matter for the individual though, one which each and every person has to
> abide with themselves. As far as I'm concerned, it's my business and
no-one
> else's.
I would suggest to you again that it's also up to the individual whether
they decide to move into Wales and with no preconditions that differ to any
preconditions that you may have experienced when you moved to England. Your
friend GabI wants to demand that the non-Welsh speaker pays up to ten times
their annual rates for the privelage of living over here. Do you agree with
that?
Whilst I'm on about GabI, please let me iterate word for Word the scathing
attack he received in the Daily Post Today -
Page 9 , centre column with photo-
Title - Introducing the Ideal party to beat the Winter Blues-
" Though this is indeed a miserable time of the year, you can always rely on
some people to lighten the mood. You know the sort, you meet them in the pub
and they're ready with a list of jokes as long as your arm. Before you know
it, you're in stitches and your troubles are all forgotten".
"The Independent wales Party are a bit like that. and their latest jolly
jape is targeting the Assembly seat to be vacated by Dafydd Wigley next
year".
"Oh someone get the Anaesthetic, I think that my sides have split. The idea
that the IWP could find someone from it's ranks to follow a man of the
stature of Dafydd Wigley, I tell you, this lot should be on the stand-up
comedy circuit, they would clean up."
"Laugh a minute ;- Gwilym ab Ioan defected from Plaid Cymru to the IWP, but
the idea of his new Party taking dafydd Wigley's Assembly seat is a joke!"
(END)
I reckon this journalist is spot on!
> What's really odd is that if I was to say "screw Wales they don't deserve
a
> thing" you and your cohorts would probably respect me more. How perverted
> is that ?
Very perverted and your thoughts and words, are'nt they?
Jack Sais
(in message <lq118.23883$WQ1.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>):
> But you would demand that all people in Wales learn Welsh regardless of the
> fact that that is a call from within the 20% for the 80% to change their
> ways. The linguistic barrier exists even more so today from people who
> desire for example the IWP who advocate as seen on their opening Web page,
> i.e Y Fro Gymraeg.
Ironic that the IWP's homepage is in English. That really MUST hurt...
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Blewyn
news:01HW.B86A5AAF0...@news.freeserve.net...
>
> Ironic that the IWP's homepage is in English. That really MUST hurt...
>
I expect it's because the party stands for the good of all Welsh people..and
wishes to address all Welsh people.
Blewyn
Jimmy Daniels
Jack Sais <engli...@wales.org> wrote in message
news:01HW.B86A5AAF0...@news.freeserve.net...
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2002 21:48:19 +0000, Jimmy Daniels wrote
> (in message <lq118.23883$WQ1.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>):
>
> > But you would demand that all people in Wales learn Welsh regardless of
the
> > fact that that is a call from within the 20% for the 80% to change their
> > ways. The linguistic barrier exists even more so today from people who
> > desire for example the IWP who advocate as seen on their opening Web
page,
> > i.e Y Fro Gymraeg.
>
> Ironic that the IWP's homepage is in English. That really MUST hurt...
Hurt is must surely do. Also a clear acceptance even by them, that even the
Welsh speaking Welsh prefer to read the English version. Most Welsh people
I know certainly do read and complete for example, the English version of
Bi-Lingual forms.
Blewyn
>
>
> Blewyn <ble...@SPAM-ME-NOTbtinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a21loc$6c1$1...@news0.ifb.net...
> > References line getting too long 4 my server...
> >
> > "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > news:lkW08.21523$WQ1.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> > > The advance of the English is of no blame on the English. The World
has
> > > taken the language on board. what's your hang-up? Even Russia are
> becoming
> > > quite fluent.
>
> > So there you have it. Anyone who opposes the advance of McEnglish has
> > 'hangups'.
>
> It is a hangup to actually oppose. Why should you oppose any language for
> that matter. You seem to have it well ingrained in your mind that opposing
> English, increases your Welshness. Nothing could be further from the
truth.
What utter nonsense. If English people were to develop a fascination for
French, and begin to adopt it nationwide, to the extent that by 2050 only
20% of England could speak English - would they still be just as English as
before ?
> > Anyone who wants to retain some local protection against the
> > all-devouring Anglo-Saxon multinational media corporations is quite
> clearly
> > full of 'hangups', as are those who simply want to protect their own way
> of
> > life.
>
> But the problem you have facing you is that the majority of people in
Wales
> are quite happy to further promote such. The writing is there on the wall
> for you in the form that people will continue subscribing to that Anglo
> Saxon muti-National media.
If a Welsh-controlled Welsh-based government were able to direct resources
and the focus of the public consciousness to events taking place within
Wales, rather than always looking to London as is currently the case, then
the local Welsh media would be able to compete more effectively against the
enormous production and distribution power of the worldwide Anglo-Saxon
media.
> > McEnglish - We Own You (tm)
>
> If you are paranoid, then yes.
One does not need to be paranoid to draw conclusions from the denudation of
Welsh private retail business in the face of English national chain stores.
A problem present in England as well, yes, but like I keep repeating
England's concerns are not at issue here.
ALL the profits earned in Welsh Tesco, Sainsburys, Safeways, ASDA, Dixons,
Currys et al stores flows directly OUT of Wales, never to return. There is
no recirculation of the profit earned, no multiplier effect, just a
straightforward drain on the Welsh economy.
> > > Easy you say,? but you fail to answer the question.
>
> > No I don't - the above is exactly the limit of my expertise, but it
would
> be
> > enough for me to know that capable professionals were running the
country
> > with the single aim of running Wales for the benefit of the Welsh
economy
> > alone. That's your answer.
>
> That's a vague reply to a question that asks you to be specific. Fair
enough
> if that's your limitation. On that note though, who are these capable
> professionals that you refer to that perhaps are more capable than the
> status quo?
No necessarily more capable than the current paid professionals, but
specifically mandated to develop the Welsh economy, focused on Welsh
development, and committed to Welsh prosperity. Our current leaders simply
regard the Welsh economy as a side issue that is only important insofar as
it's effects on the main English economy.
Do you really imagine that our Westminster leaders give a toss what happens
to the Welsh people ?
> > No, I don't - that's the whole point. No-one but Jesus ever lead by
> example
> > (and I'm not religious), but it hasn't stopped anyone from debating
issues
> > properly. Moral right and wrongs, and academic arguments remain, no
> matter
> > what people do.
>
> What a load of waffle Blewyn! Nobody except Jesus lead by example. You are
> taking the piss surely?
OK, who else...the guy that sat at the top of a pillar for years maybe, and
of course all those leaders who never set a moral example in the first
place, because they didn't believe in it...anyway this is OT so I won't
respond to this particular line anymore.
No, it's using the language as a powerful and advantageous marketing and
commerical tool to give the Welsh people (who can, of course all speak
English AS WELL) a comptitive advantage. Or maybe you think that the Welsh
people have no right to any kind of competitive advantages over anyone?
> > There is no linguistic 'barrier' - after all, anyone can learn to speak
> any
> > language.
>
> But you would demand that all people in Wales learn Welsh regardless of
the
> fact that that is a call from within the 20% for the 80% to change their
> ways.
To reclaim their heritage, the culture that has been eroded from under their
feet.
> The linguistic barrier exists even more so today from people who
> desire for example the IWP who advocate as seen on their opening Web page,
> i.e Y Fro Gymraeg.
Like I said, there is no barrier. Anyone can learn any language.
> > > Precisely the
> > > accusations delivered by Rod Richards, some three years ago. So this
is
> > the
> > > linguistic tool that you want put in place for the sake of eliminating
> > free
> > > competition that would otherwise be a level keel.
>
> > Why not ? It's the right of any people to take advantage of those things
> > about them that may provide a source of commerce.
>
> Why not you say? I'll suggest why not. You want it in place so that people
> who fail to make their mark in Wales can play the easier game in life by
> deliberately disadvantaging others who can.
Deliberately disadvantaging who ? I don't see you accusing the Germans or
French or Dutch of deliberately disadvantaging the English because they use
German, French and Dutch in business and literature. How does promoting the
commercial power of the Welsh language disadvantage the Welsh people ? Bear
in mind that the vast majority of current Welsh school leavers do have a
basic grounding in the language.
> The tool used to achieve this is
> the Welsh language. Is it any wonder that in many parts of Wales that
adopt
> this policy, end up with a second rate and amateurish workforce?
This is just an outright lie. Are you saying Welsh people don't work hard,
or are just not capable ?
> No Country
> can create a quality workforce without a multi-National acceptance.
Again, an outright lie. It depends entirely on what you're producing, and
even then it is arguable that within a population of 3m, one can find
high-quality personnel for any venture.
> Home-grown only, gives you homegrown crap and if Welsh only is what you
> insist on then that's the quality you will get. Thank goodness this will
not
> spread and become reality
So what you're saying is Welsh quality is crap quality. I don't agree - and
even if it were true, the solution is to work to improve that quality, not
just give the work and profits to someone else.
> > >Thank you Blewyn, I've
> > > waited some considerable time for a pro nationalist to admit to that.
> Good
> > > on you! Dear dear, a linguistic obstacle to combat competition. I
really
> > do
> > > appreciate that you admit to this Blewyn. Credit due!
> >
> > It's not an obstacle to combat competition - it's a separate commercial
> > market to which non-speakers do not have access. Presumably you think
> that
> > you have a moral right to impose English on everyone, in order that the
> > English may compete more effectively ?
>
> Hardly a point in backtracking now Blewyn. Time for you to realise Blewyn
> that the English language is enforced on nobody. It's a choice people
make,
> regardless of your dissaproval.
Wrong again. It's historically been forced on the Welsh people, and in
recent years only have the Welsh begun to shake off the culture of
inferiority that believes that English is the only serious language. One
has to ask - whom does it benefit not only for the Welsh to be able to use
English, but to actively give it preferential status over our own language ?
It may currently be a choice - albeit one which means loss of culture one
one hand or English aggression and/or reduced trade on the other - but
things are getting steadily better. Many English tourists nowadays are
delighted to see obvious Welshness (by which, in this context I mean
Cymreictod) and Welsh culture proudly displayed when they go to Wales, and I
believe that the English as a whole have far greater respect for a people
that stand up for themselves. The cliched English tourist that doesn't want
to 'eat any foreign muck' or simply speaks louder when foreigners don't
understand is rapidly becoming a thing of the past - outside Great Yarmouth
and Magaluf at least - and the Welsh need to realise that non-one's going to
thank them for scrificing their culture and individuality on the altar of
English commerce.
> This is a choice you want to deny people.
Anybody can choose to learn any language.
> You want to insist that a commercial market be adopted to which
non-speakers
> do not have access. Your words and apartheid at that.
Again, you are simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Apartheid is a system whereby a
section of a population are accorded reduced status because of something
about them which they cannot change and has no bearing on their ability - eg
skin colour, creed, eye colour etc
Access to any market is available to anyone who is willing to learn the
skills necessary to penetrate that market. This is perfectly normal in any
business.
> > What next - a demand for the Scottish to stop brewing Whisky, so that
> > England can produce more Gin ?
>
> Relevance?
OK let me spell it out. Scotland has a long tradition of brewing whisky, to
the extent that Scottish whisky is regarded as the only authentic whisky
available (notwithstanding bourbon). If Scotland were to unilaterally stop
brewing whisky, it is likely that English Gin sales in the UK, being a
competitor alcoholic drink, would rise. By your reasoning in this argument,
the Scottish industry is actually a barrier against English commerce, and
has a moral obligation to stop production so that the English Gin
manufacturers can compete more effectively.
Please answer the point of argument - I know the gin\whisky analogy isn't
the best, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.
> > > So the problem has nothing or very little to do with indeginous Welsh
> > people
> > > leaving. It's entirely the fault of wealthy Englanders? Is this what
you
> are saying?
>
> > Pretty much, given that the emigrants are leaving to search for work,
and
> > therefore by definition cannot afford to buy. The prices are determined
> by
> > (as I said) external buying power.
>
> Incredible! I would suggest to you that the leaving indeginous are the
cause
> of the housing problem.
Are you hard of understanding ? It's really quite simple - young Welsh
people leave because they can't get work, or because the local work doesn't
pay enough, and they can't buy property because it's too expensive. The
reason it's too expensive is because the price is determined by the buying
power of well-off individuals seeking second or retirement homes. These
well-off people tend to come from the urban centres of the UK, and tend to
be English. The English are historically shown to be particularly poor at
integration into the community, and holiday homes left unoccupied for large
portions of the year mean that local retailers have a reduced level of
trade. So if they move to live in Wales the language suffers, and if they
buy holiday homes local businesses suffer. Either way, the local properties
are rpiced out of the reach of local inhabitants. I don't know how to make
it any simpler.
> I would suggest to you again that it's also up to the individual whether
> they decide to move into Wales and with no preconditions that differ to
any
> preconditions that you may have experienced when you moved to England.
Your
> friend GabI wants to demand that the non-Welsh speaker pays up to ten
times
> their annual rates for the privelage of living over here. Do you agree
with
> that?
I understand his reasoning - the Welsh language is on the endangered list,
and drastic measures are warranted. I don't think I actually agree with the
tactic he proposes, it's too negative and controversial to be effectively
accepted.
I agree that individuals should be free to move without precondition (as we
all are within the EU), but that doesn't mean that the Welsh people cannot
take steps to ensure the continued use of the language. For example, if
someone wants to work in a bank in Caernarfon, they should be expected to
speak Welsh, as a required skill for the job. The customers will respond
better, the co-workers will be more comfortable, all will appreciate any
learning effort that may have been necessary, and the willingness to do it
in the first place demonstrates commitment and positivity, a willingness to
work as a team player.
Are you sure GabI was referring specifically to non-Welsh speakers, and not
specifically to holiday home owners (who I believe should pay vastly
increased rates).
> Whilst I'm on about GabI, please let me iterate word for Word the scathing
> attack he received in the Daily Post Today -
>
> Page 9 , centre column with photo-
>
> Title - The Party to Beat the Winter Blues-
>
> " Though this is indeed a miserable time of the year, you can always rely
on
> some people to lighten the mood. You know the sort, you meet them in the
pub
> and they're ready with a list of jokes as long as your arm. Before you
know
> it, you're in stitches and your troubles are all forgotten".
>
> "The Conservative Party are a bit like that. and their latest jolly
> jape is targeting the Assembly seat to be vacated by Dafydd Wigley next
> year".
>
> "Oh someone get the Anaesthetic, I think that my sides have split. The
idea
> that the Tories could find someone from it's ranks to follow a man of the
> stature of Dafydd Wigley, I tell you, this lot should be on the stand-up
> comedy circuit, they would clean up."
>
> "Laugh a minute ;- Nigel Smyth-Twaddle defected from Plaid Cymru to the
Tories, but
> the idea of his new Party taking dafydd Wigley's Assembly seat is a joke!"
> (END)
>
> I reckon this journalist is spot on!
Read the article again - you'll see that I have edited it. What does it
sound like now ? Yes, that's right, the kind of out-and-out propaganda that
even the posters on this NG wouldn't sink to, let alone a newspaper. Yet
it's OK to talk like this about the IWP, because it's OK to make
sheepshagger jokes about the Welsh and because the IWP must be mad if they
don't want to be with England. Your article contains not one single
referance to an actual policy, not even a general description of the party's
aims. A similar article about Labour or the Tories would be savaged by
other papers - but because they have nothing to gain from supporting the IWP
(who I know little about), it's perfectly Ok for the Daily Post to print
this drivel. For all they know there may be a person of Churchill's stature
in the IWP, but they blithely presume there isn't, because it's what they
want YOU to think.
Blewyn
Jimmy Daniels
Blewyn <ble...@SPAM-ME-NOTbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a23nbb$hfp$1...@news0.ifb.net...
>
> "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:lq118.23883$WQ1.3...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > It is a hangup to actually oppose. Why should you oppose any language
for
> > that matter. You seem to have it well ingrained in your mind that
opposing
> > English, increases your Welshness. Nothing could be further from the
> truth.
> What utter nonsense. If English people were to develop a fascination for
> French, and begin to adopt it nationwide, to the extent that by 2050 only
> 20% of England could speak English - would they still be just as English
as
> before ?
What a crap comparison! You've totally missed the point. Opposing someone
else's language does nothing to promote your own, never has done and never
will. You must sell it if survival is your aim. When certain radicals allow
this penny to drop, only then will there be a chance for Wales to progress
from the measly 20% representation. Opposing everything that's English for
the sake of it is only pissing further into the wind. Your piss, your
effort, you carry on!
> > But the problem you have facing you is that the majority of people in
> Wales
> > are quite happy to further promote such. The writing is there on the
wall
> > for you in the form that people will continue subscribing to that Anglo
> > Saxon muti-National media.
> If a Welsh-controlled Welsh-based government were able to direct
resources
> and the focus of the public consciousness to events taking place within
> Wales, rather than always looking to London as is currently the case, then
> the local Welsh media would be able to compete more effectively against
the
> enormous production and distribution power of the worldwide Anglo-Saxon
> media.
There are no current restrictions on the media to adopt what you suggest. No
government can change that. After saying that, what makes you think that the
media would support what you see fit? Look around you, where are these Welsh
media? How many Welsh Daily papers are there? Get real man! The fact of the
matter is, that the Welsh could'nt give a shit, however clouded your vision.
> > > McEnglish - We Own You (tm)
> >
> > If you are paranoid, then yes.
>
> One does not need to be paranoid to draw conclusions from the denudation
of
> Welsh private retail business in the face of English national chain
stores.
> A problem present in England as well, yes, but like I keep repeating
> England's concerns are not at issue here.
Need not be paranoid you say? With words like you've iterated above, that's
the impression you give. Come on Blewyn, English National stores bear fruit
due to people spending in them. Where are the Welsh store chains? Ah! it's
the fault of the English I hear you cry.
> ALL the profits earned in Welsh Tesco, Sainsburys, Safeways, ASDA, Dixons,
> Currys et al stores flows directly OUT of Wales, never to return. There
is
> no recirculation of the profit earned, no multiplier effect, just a
> straightforward drain on the Welsh economy.
The profits of these Companies can flow where the Companies desire. Many
Welsh people benefit in the form of share dividends as the English do and
stores based in Wales employ Welsh people. You fail to mention this. No
recirculation you say? Bollocks, you seem to have very limited commercial
knowledge Blewyn.
> > That's a vague reply to a question that asks you to be specific. Fair
> enough
> > if that's your limitation. On that note though, who are these capable
> > professionals that you refer to that perhaps are more capable than the
> > status quo?
> No necessarily more capable than the current paid professionals, but
> specifically mandated to develop the Welsh economy, focused on Welsh
> development, and committed to Welsh prosperity. Our current leaders
simply
> regard the Welsh economy as a side issue that is only important insofar as
> it's effects on the main English economy.
But you suggested more professional people. Again you decline to provide
specifics to improve on the status quo. Better this and better that just
convinces nobody.
> Do you really imagine that our Westminster leaders give a toss what
happens
> to the Welsh people ?
No more than I think that you give a toss about Westminster. Your point?
> OK, who else...the guy that sat at the top of a pillar for years maybe,
and
> of course all those leaders who never set a moral example in the first
> place, because they didn't believe in it...anyway this is OT so I won't
> respond to this particular line anymore.
You mentioned Jesus, not me.
> > That's using the Language as an obstacle to disadvantage people who can
> not
> > speak the language. Hardly a point doing an "U" turn now.
> No, it's using the language as a powerful and advantageous marketing and
> commerical tool to give the Welsh people (who can, of course all speak
> English AS WELL) a comptitive advantage.
Oh, tacky or what? Using the language as a powerful tool. It's abusing the
language as a deliberate barrier. Your argument just does'nt wash especially
with your additive (Who can of course speak english as well) They are
speaking it first Blewyn every one of Wales's 80%. Put things in perpective.
You want along with a tiny proportion of your former Wales to put barriers
in the path of the majority. The only desperate tool that you and your tiny
representation have left is the language. That's the truth I see.and that
very same truth will be the limitation of how IWP performs.
> Or maybe you think that the Welsh
> people have no right to any kind of competitive advantages over anyone?
The word advantage beyond merit in any business can not be associated with
competition. If you have the type of advantage you would like to put in
place, then there is no possible way I can see how you can count your
Laurels some way down the road when you know in your mind that you achieved
what you have primarily because of the deliberate use of putting a
linguistic barrier in front of the competition that you haver already
admitted to be failing to compete against. This would make you nothing other
than a king of a very small Castle. Bit like putting your football
opposition in chains.
> > But you would demand that all people in Wales learn Welsh regardless of
> the
> > fact that that is a call from within the 20% for the 80% to change their
> > ways.
> To reclaim their heritage, the culture that has been eroded from under
their
> feet.
I'll bet you my bottom dollar, you will not see any significant conversions
from the existing 80% You've a mountain to climb it seems.
> > The linguistic barrier exists even more so today from people who
> > desire for example the IWP who advocate as seen on their opening Web
page,
> > i.e Y Fro Gymraeg.
> Like I said, there is no barrier. Anyone can learn any language.
Easy for you and for me to say. Not everyone wants to learn Welsh and not
everyone has the ability to learn new languages. Growing up with it is
another matter and a piece of cake.
> > Why not you say? I'll suggest why not. You want it in place so that
people
> > who fail to make their mark in Wales can play the easier game in life by
> > deliberately disadvantaging others who can.
> Deliberately disadvantaging who ? I don't see you accusing the Germans or
> French or Dutch of deliberately disadvantaging the English because they
use
> German, French and Dutch in business and literature.
Totally different kettle of fish. In germany, German is the main language.
In the Netherlands, it's Dutch. In France it's French and in Wales albeit to
your utmost dissaproval, it's English.
> How does promoting the
> commercial power of the Welsh language disadvantage the Welsh people ?
At that stage it does'nt. I don't recall stating that promotion of the Welsh
language is a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Forcing the issue
against the free will of certain individuals, is hardly a constructive
method. It's a method that has failed and always will
>Bear
> in mind that the vast majority of current Welsh school leavers do have a
> basic grounding in the language.
Many of which make no use of it afterwards. Some do and some do not.
> > The tool used to achieve this is
> > the Welsh language. Is it any wonder that in many parts of Wales that
> adopt
> > this policy, end up with a second rate and amateurish workforce?
> This is just an outright lie. Are you saying Welsh people don't work
hard,
> or are just not capable ?
I'm certainly not. I just don't see any expertise in many areas that have
derived from the indeginous. You've only to look at the domination of
Doctors and Surgeons for example to see one example. Mind you I think that
the mix that we have is very healthy.
> > No Country
> > can create a quality workforce without a multi-National acceptance.
> Again, an outright lie. It depends entirely on what you're producing, and
> even then it is arguable that within a population of 3m, one can find
> high-quality personnel for any venture.
You need to mature a little Blewyn. It's not a lie, it's an opinion and a
conclusion that I reached several years ago. You disagree, that's ok with
me. You will not find high quality personnel in Wales for ANY venture, hence
the Brain Drain.
> > Home-grown only, gives you homegrown crap and if Welsh only is what you
> > insist on then that's the quality you will get. Thank goodness this will
> not
> > spread and become reality
> So what you're saying is Welsh quality is crap quality. I don't agree -
and
> even if it were true, the solution is to work to improve that quality, not
> just give the work and profits to someone else.
Good in some areas and pretty crap in others. Restaurants can be fom
moderate to diabolical, Garage Services, I'd say the same. Road Surfaces in
this Country are probable amongst the Worst in Europe. The lits endless and
anywhere from tolerable to crap.
> > Hardly a point in backtracking now Blewyn. Time for you to realise
Blewyn
> > that the English language is enforced on nobody. It's a choice people
> make,
> > regardless of your dissaproval.
> Wrong again. It's historically been forced on the Welsh people, and in
> recent years only have the Welsh begun to shake off the culture of
> inferiority that believes that English is the only serious language.
Who is forcing you to use it right now?
> One
> has to ask - whom does it benefit not only for the Welsh to be able to use
> English, but to actively give it preferential status over our own language
?
It goes further afield Blewyn. Welsh is practically useless beyond Wales and
even in certain Parts of Wales itself. Let's be honest about it?
(snipped)
> > You want to insist that a commercial market be adopted to which
> non-speakers
> > do not have access. Your words and apartheid at that.
> Again, you are simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Apartheid is a system whereby
a
> section of a population are accorded reduced status because of something
> about them which they cannot change and has no bearing on their ability -
eg
> skin colour, creed, eye colour etc
A superficial viewpoint you have on apartheid.
> Access to any market is available to anyone who is willing to learn the
> skills necessary to penetrate that market. This is perfectly normal in
any
> business.
It's an artificial skill created. it's not anecessity to function. Now if
you said that exist people that do not understand beyond the Welsh, then
fair enough. Call it anything you like buit it's hardly a necessity whereby
it's absence would mean the job would not be done.
> Please answer the point of argument - I know the gin\whisky analogy isn't
> the best, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.
I will not, it's an awful analogy.
> > Incredible! I would suggest to you that the leaving indeginous are the
> cause
> > of the housing problem.
> Are you hard of understanding ? It's really quite simple - young Welsh
> people leave because they can't get work, or because the local work
doesn't
> pay enough, and they can't buy property because it's too expensive.
So they leave and the house becomes vacant. Those who leave provide avacant
house. Jack sais comes along and buys it. Welsh radical is jealous and
screams murder! More like the hard hitting truth?
> The
> reason it's too expensive is because the price is determined by the buying
> power of well-off individuals seeking second or retirement homes.
Let's now tranlate this one to a more truthful reality- Welshman sells
property and sells to the highest bidder. Highest bidder just so happens to
be an English person. result? Much the same - Jealous Welsh radical cries
murder again and the irony of it all is that it's a Welsh person like
yourself has sold out and it's aso a Welsh person steered by greed that
takes the English money! and the real problem that's caused all this is
unemployment and piss poor jobs that the Welsh radical probably believes is
also the fault of anyone except their own.
> These
> well-off people tend to come from the urban centres of the UK, and tend to
> be English. The English are historically shown to be particularly poor at
> integration into the community, and holiday homes left unoccupied for
large
> portions of the year mean that local retailers have a reduced level of
> trade. So if they move to live in Wales the language suffers, and if they
> buy holiday homes local businesses suffer. Either way, the local
properties
> are rpiced out of the reach of local inhabitants. I don't know how to
make
> it any simpler.
What a load of Wank! Avoiding all responsibility at any cost!
> I understand his reasoning - the Welsh language is on the endangered list,
> and drastic measures are warranted. I don't think I actually agree with
the
> tactic he proposes, it's too negative and controversial to be effectively
> accepted.
Reasoning is what this idiot lacks. As for your latter part, I could'nt
agree more.
> I agree that individuals should be free to move without precondition (as
we
> all are within the EU), but that doesn't mean that the Welsh people cannot
> take steps to ensure the continued use of the language.
To this point, I agree.
> For example, if
> someone wants to work in a bank in Caernarfon, they should be expected to
> speak Welsh, as a required skill for the job. The customers will respond
> better, the co-workers will be more comfortable, all will appreciate any
> learning effort that may have been necessary, and the willingness to do it
> in the first place demonstrates commitment and positivity, a willingness
to
> work as a team player.
Your example is already complementing the status quo
> Are you sure GabI was referring specifically to non-Welsh speakers, and
not
> specifically to holiday home owners (who I believe should pay vastly
> increased rates).
Check out, the IWP opening Web-page. It's there for anyone to see.
> Read the article again - you'll see that I have edited it. What does it
> sound like now ? Yes, that's right, the kind of out-and-out propaganda
that
> even the posters on this NG wouldn't sink to, let alone a newspaper. Yet
> it's OK to talk like this about the IWP, because it's OK to make
> sheepshagger jokes about the Welsh and because the IWP must be mad if they
> don't want to be with England. Your article contains not one single
> referance to an actual policy, not even a general description of the
party's
> aims. A similar article about Labour or the Tories would be savaged by
> other papers - but because they have nothing to gain from supporting the
IWP
> (who I know little about), it's perfectly Ok for the Daily Post to print
> this drivel. For all they know there may be a person of Churchill's
stature
> in the IWP, but they blithely presume there isn't, because it's what they
> want YOU to think.
The original journal was much better and identified by many of it's readers
no doubt. Certainly my sentiments, even before they were written
Blewyn
On general principle I'd agree with you, but not in the case of English.
Time and time again it has been shown that it is not possible to sell the
idea of speaking Welsh to English-speaking people, because the British
culture is very insular and in general has only begun to recognise the value
in other cultures within the last 15 years. Familiarity with Italian
cuisine is now a fashionable trait, and many people make a point of being
able to pronounce the names of the various dishes correctly. Yet
newsreaders to this day often fail utterly to pronounce correctly the words
of the oldest living British language. It is this elevated status that
Welsh has failed utterly to capture in the English popular consciousness,
and it is entirely attributable to the fact that as a cultural nation we
have failed to show sufficient stubborness and resistance (your argument
about 'selling to survive' - the English mentality doesn't respect salesmen)
to the onslaught. DeGaulle didn't half get grief for sayin 'Non!', but
damned if the English don't respect him all the more for it.
I'm not advocating discrimination - but as a nation Wales must work within
legal limits to impose their will on incomers instead of just hoping for
goodwill. For every incomer that commits to learn and use our language
there are nine who balk at the prospect, and insist that we speak their
language instead.
> > If a Welsh-controlled Welsh-based government were able to direct
> resources
> > and the focus of the public consciousness to events taking place within
> > Wales, rather than always looking to London as is currently the case,
then
> > the local Welsh media would be able to compete more effectively against
> the
> > enormous production and distribution power of the worldwide Anglo-Saxon
> > media.
>
> There are no current restrictions on the media to adopt what you suggest.
No
> government can change that. After saying that, what makes you think that
the
> media would support what you see fit? Look around you, where are these
Welsh
> media? How many Welsh Daily papers are there? Get real man! The fact of
the
> matter is, that the Welsh could'nt give a shit, however clouded your
vision.
The whole point of my argument is that we should change the situation so
that they DO give a shit. Quite frankly, if a people don't give a shit
about themselves then there is no future for them.
> > > > McEnglish - We Own You (tm)
> > >
> > > If you are paranoid, then yes.
> >
> > One does not need to be paranoid to draw conclusions from the denudation
> of
> > Welsh private retail business in the face of English national chain
> stores.
> > A problem present in England as well, yes, but like I keep repeating
> > England's concerns are not at issue here.
>
> Need not be paranoid you say? With words like you've iterated above,
that's
> the impression you give. Come on Blewyn, English National stores bear
fruit
> due to people spending in them. Where are the Welsh store chains? Ah! it's
> the fault of the English I hear you cry.
You don't seem to have grasped the point I'm making, in illustration of the
fact that ownership is based in England. Naturally people spend in the
cheapest and best shops. National chains are able to sell cheaper and
source better food than smaller chains or single shops, in general. There
is no protection for the local retailer from national chain store
competitive power. Over the last 20 years, income from retail profit has
been taken out of the hands of local business owners (who then tended to
spend their income locally) and allowed to fall into the hands of people
like the Sainsbury family. All the profits from the 3 major food shops in
Caernarfon go straight to London, and never come back. 30 years ago, all
those same profits went to local pockets, and remained in the local economy,
to be recycled over and over again creating economic growth.
I know that this sad story could be repeated for many places in England, but
that's not the concern of this NG. My argument is that a Welsh government
would be a much more effective buffer against this kind of drain on the
Welsh economy, and would no doubt take a much keener interest in such 'small
town' problems than the urban-focused and media-obsessed Lodon government.
> > ALL the profits earned in Welsh Tesco, Sainsburys, Safeways, ASDA,
Dixons,
> > Currys et al stores flows directly OUT of Wales, never to return. There
> is
> > no recirculation of the profit earned, no multiplier effect, just a
> > straightforward drain on the Welsh economy.
>
> The profits of these Companies can flow where the Companies desire. Many
> Welsh people benefit in the form of share dividends as the English do and
> stores based in Wales employ Welsh people. You fail to mention this. No
> recirculation you say? Bollocks, you seem to have very limited commercial
> knowledge Blewyn.
On the contrary. I recommend that you read up about the multiplier effect
with regards to how an economy sustains itself. Share dividends. Do me a
favour.
> > > That's a vague reply to a question that asks you to be specific. Fair
> > enough
> > > if that's your limitation. On that note though, who are these capable
> > > professionals that you refer to that perhaps are more capable than the
> > > status quo?
>
> > No necessarily more capable than the current paid professionals, but
> > specifically mandated to develop the Welsh economy, focused on Welsh
> > development, and committed to Welsh prosperity. Our current leaders
> simply
> > regard the Welsh economy as a side issue that is only important insofar
as
> > it's effects on the main English economy.
>
> But you suggested more professional people. Again you decline to provide
> specifics to improve on the status quo. Better this and better that just
> convinces nobody.
Nonsense. It's obvious to the dimmest that a person who is mandated to
focus specifically on Wales, with no regard to a political master in
England, is bound to be more interested and committed to improving the Welsh
economy. What kind of specifics do you want ?
> > Do you really imagine that our Westminster leaders give a toss what
> happens
> > to the Welsh people ?
>
> No more than I think that you give a toss about Westminster. Your point?
My point being that Welsh people should realise that Westminster does not
represent their interests and that they would be better off running their
own affairs.
> > > That's using the Language as an obstacle to disadvantage people who
can
> > not
> > > speak the language. Hardly a point doing an "U" turn now.
>
> > No, it's using the language as a powerful and advantageous marketing and
> > commerical tool to give the Welsh people (who can, of course all speak
> > English AS WELL) a comptitive advantage.
>
> Oh, tacky or what? Using the language as a powerful tool. It's abusing the
> language as a deliberate barrier.
Business is business. Without a plummy English accent, surname and public
school background will I get a job with Coutts ? Is that a deliberate
barrier, or not ? Seems to me it's OK for some to use their skills to
exclude others, but not for the rest of us.
Whether you regard something as a valid skill or as a barrier depends on
your point of view. I say the Welsh should use what they have to make the
most that they can, instead of just giving it all away for no good reason.
> Your argument just does'nt wash especially
> with your additive (Who can of course speak english as well) They are
> speaking it first Blewyn every one of Wales's 80%. Put things in
perpective.
All the more reason to learn Welsh !
> > Or maybe you think that the Welsh
> > people have no right to any kind of competitive advantages over anyone?
>
> The word advantage beyond merit in any business can not be associated with
> competition.
Who defines merit ? A bank that talks to me in Welsh merits my business.
That's something I'll pay for. That's a competitive advantage my bank has.
> If you have the type of advantage you would like to put in
> place, then there is no possible way I can see how you can count your
> Laurels some way down the road when you know in your mind that you
achieved
> what you have primarily because of the deliberate use of putting a
> linguistic barrier in front of the competition that you haver already
> admitted to be failing to compete against. This would make you nothing
other
> than a king of a very small Castle. Bit like putting your football
> opposition in chains.
Fine. In that case, do you want to open the whole job market of the UK to
applicants from the whole world, including those engineers and doctors from
very poor countries who will gladly work 18 hours a day for half a UK wage ?
The only thing currently keeping them out is the entirely abstract and
man-made barrier of our passport control and employment laws.
>
> > > But you would demand that all people in Wales learn Welsh regardless
of
> > the
> > > fact that that is a call from within the 20% for the 80% to change
their
> > > ways.
>
> > To reclaim their heritage, the culture that has been eroded from under
> their
> > feet.
>
> I'll bet you my bottom dollar, you will not see any significant
conversions
> from the existing 80% You've a mountain to climb it seems.
The great majority of Welsh parents are very keen for their children to
learn and use Welsh at school, and express regret that they never learnt the
language themselves.
> > > The linguistic barrier exists even more so today from people who
> > > desire for example the IWP who advocate as seen on their opening Web
> page,
> > > i.e Y Fro Gymraeg.
>
> > Like I said, there is no barrier. Anyone can learn any language.
>
> Easy for you and for me to say. Not everyone wants to learn Welsh and not
> everyone has the ability to learn new languages. Growing up with it is
> another matter and a piece of cake.
Not everyone has the ability to sing - does that mean that we shouldn't
reward singers for their talents ?
> > > Why not you say? I'll suggest why not. You want it in place so that
> people
> > > who fail to make their mark in Wales can play the easier game in life
by
> > > deliberately disadvantaging others who can.
>
> > Deliberately disadvantaging who ? I don't see you accusing the Germans
or
> > French or Dutch of deliberately disadvantaging the English because they
> use
> > German, French and Dutch in business and literature.
>
> Totally different kettle of fish. In germany, German is the main language.
> In the Netherlands, it's Dutch. In France it's French and in Wales albeit
to
> your utmost dissaproval, it's English.
In Europe, the main language is English. My question stands.
> > How does promoting the
> > commercial power of the Welsh language disadvantage the Welsh people ?
>
> At that stage it does'nt. I don't recall stating that promotion of the
Welsh
> language is a bad thing. I think it's a good thing. Forcing the issue
> against the free will of certain individuals, is hardly a constructive
> method. It's a method that has failed and always will
Never said we should force the issue - but we don't have to make it
extra-easy for people to say 'no thanks', especially in Welsh-speaking
areas.
> >Bear
> > in mind that the vast majority of current Welsh school leavers do have a
> > basic grounding in the language.
>
> Many of which make no use of it afterwards. Some do and some do not.
Because they do not perceive any advantage in doing so. This is what we
have to change - after all , we all speak English so we have nothing to
lose.
> > > The tool used to achieve this is
> > > the Welsh language. Is it any wonder that in many parts of Wales that
> > adopt
> > > this policy, end up with a second rate and amateurish workforce?
>
> > This is just an outright lie. Are you saying Welsh people don't work
> hard,
> > or are just not capable ?
>
> I'm certainly not. I just don't see any expertise in many areas that have
> derived from the indeginous. You've only to look at the domination of
> Doctors and Surgeons for example to see one example. Mind you I think that
> the mix that we have is very healthy.
I'll agree that the indigenous culture has been slow to encourage many areas
of endeavour - but this can be fairly attributed to many internal and
external influences which I won't go into here for fear of inflaming another
"ya boo sucks" flame war. Suffice it to say that we should regard the
situation as something to be improved upon as we go forwards.
> > > No Country
> > > can create a quality workforce without a multi-National acceptance.
>
> > Again, an outright lie. It depends entirely on what you're producing,
and
> > even then it is arguable that within a population of 3m, one can find
> > high-quality personnel for any venture.
>
> You need to mature a little Blewyn. It's not a lie, it's an opinion and a
> conclusion that I reached several years ago. You disagree, that's ok with
> me. You will not find high quality personnel in Wales for ANY venture,
hence
> the Brain Drain.
How then do they run the Llanberis Hydro-Electric station, Wylfa power
station ? Who comprises the crew of the Rowan California oil rig (clue :
they're not Yanks). Come on JD, there may be a brain drain but surely this
argument is a little contrived to say the least.
> > > Home-grown only, gives you homegrown crap and if Welsh only is what
you
> > > insist on then that's the quality you will get. Thank goodness this
will
> > not
> > > spread and become reality
>
> > So what you're saying is Welsh quality is crap quality. I don't agree -
> and
> > even if it were true, the solution is to work to improve that quality,
not
> > just give the work and profits to someone else.
>
> Good in some areas and pretty crap in others. Restaurants can be fom
> moderate to diabolical,
Try the White Horse (I think) on the main road in Beaumaris.
> Garage Services, I'd say the same.
Garages are diabolical everywhere, Wales has no monopoly here.
> Road Surfaces in
> this Country are probable amongst the Worst in Europe.
Hahaha get a bloody grip. Go for a drive in Malta or Greece sometime.
> > > Hardly a point in backtracking now Blewyn. Time for you to realise
> Blewyn
> > > that the English language is enforced on nobody. It's a choice people
> > make,
> > > regardless of your dissaproval.
>
> > Wrong again. It's historically been forced on the Welsh people, and in
> > recent years only have the Welsh begun to shake off the culture of
> > inferiority that believes that English is the only serious language.
>
> Who is forcing you to use it right now?
No-one. I use Welsh too, but no point preaching to the converted.
> > One
> > has to ask - whom does it benefit not only for the Welsh to be able to
use
> > English, but to actively give it preferential status over our own
language
> ?
>
> It goes further afield Blewyn. Welsh is practically useless beyond Wales
and
> even in certain Parts of Wales itself. Let's be honest about it?
I take your point, but my question stands. Who gains if Welsh speakers stop
using Welsh ?
Put another way - I have a big box of plasters in my house. They never get
used, and I paid for them. Should I simply not buy them in future ?
I have a customer who speaks Welsh. All my competitors are English
speakers. Do I need to draw a picture ?
> > > You want to insist that a commercial market be adopted to which
> > non-speakers
> > > do not have access. Your words and apartheid at that.
>
> > Again, you are simply wrong, wrong, wrong. Apartheid is a system
whereby
> a
> > section of a population are accorded reduced status because of something
> > about them which they cannot change and has no bearing on their
ability -
> eg
> > skin colour, creed, eye colour etc
>
> A superficial viewpoint you have on apartheid.
Apartheid WAS superficial, that's the whole point about it. Look it up.
> > Access to any market is available to anyone who is willing to learn the
> > skills necessary to penetrate that market. This is perfectly normal in
> any
> > business.
>
> It's an artificial skill created. it's not a necessity to function.
Who defines whether a skill is 'artificial' or not ? Tracy Emin makes
thousands by making her bed an art installation. Is her skill 'artificial'
?
You say that speaking Welsh is an 'artificial' skill not necessary to
function. So's playing football, ballet dancing, singing, culinary
expertise, poetry.....the list goes on and on. The point is to learn the
skills that are in demand, or create the demand for the skills that you
have.
> Now if
> you said that exist people that do not understand beyond the Welsh, then
> fair enough. Call it anything you like buit it's hardly a necessity
whereby
> it's absence would mean the job would not be done.
Why take a utilitarian attitude to Welsh when so much of our economy is
based on luxury and fashion ? The Welsh people have very little to sell
that is not available in England - why not capitalise on the single biggest
competitive skill ? Or do you just want Wales to always be the poor relation
in the UK ?
> > Please answer the point of argument - I know the gin\whisky analogy
isn't
> > the best, but I'm sure you understand what I'm saying.
>
> I will not, it's an awful analogy.
Will you thcream and thcream and thcream ?
>
> > > Incredible! I would suggest to you that the leaving indeginous are the
> > cause
> > > of the housing problem.
>
> > Are you hard of understanding ? It's really quite simple - young Welsh
> > people leave because they can't get work, or because the local work
> doesn't
> > pay enough, and they can't buy property because it's too expensive.
>
> So they leave and the house becomes vacant. Those who leave provide
avacant
> house. Jack sais comes along and buys it. Welsh radical is jealous and
> screams murder! More like the hard hitting truth?
Wrong. Young people leave and parents stay behind. Eventually, parents die
and young people have by now settled elsewhere. House is bought by Jack
Sais.
>
> > The
> > reason it's too expensive is because the price is determined by the
buying
> > power of well-off individuals seeking second or retirement homes.
>
> Let's now tranlate this one to a more truthful reality- Welshman sells
> property and sells to the highest bidder. Highest bidder just so happens
to
> be an English person. result? Much the same - Jealous Welsh radical cries
> murder again and the irony of it all is that it's a Welsh person like
> yourself has sold out
I never sold anything in Wales, and I never will.
and it's aso a Welsh person steered by greed that
> takes the English money! and the real problem that's caused all this is
> unemployment and piss poor jobs that the Welsh radical probably believes
is
> also the fault of anyone except their own.
I'll concede this point, with a few qualifiers - unemployment and piss poor
jobs IS the fault of the UK government, the policy of which is decided by
English opinion. Currently, it's an extreme sacrifice to ask of a Welsh
person to forego thousands on a house sale, especially if they will then
face Anglo-inflated prices to find a new place to live. However, if a
coherent taxation policy designed to protect Welsh-speaking markets against
the incursion of urban English buying power seen in the last 20 years is
implemented, and the Welsh people understand that when they sell they will
also be able to buy at similar prices, would that not allow the Welsh
youngster who wants to continue working in the local garage but live in his
own place, to do so, and keep speaking his own language ?
> > These
> > well-off people tend to come from the urban centres of the UK, and tend
to
> > be English. The English are historically shown to be particularly poor
at
> > integration into the community, and holiday homes left unoccupied for
> large
> > portions of the year mean that local retailers have a reduced level of
> > trade. So if they move to live in Wales the language suffers, and if
they
> > buy holiday homes local businesses suffer. Either way, the local
> properties
> > are rpiced out of the reach of local inhabitants. I don't know how to
> make
> > it any simpler.
>
> What a load of Wank! Avoiding all responsibility at any cost!
Don't throw your dummy at me ! You obviously don't have any meaningful
counter to my argument.
> > I understand his reasoning - the Welsh language is on the endangered
list,
> > and drastic measures are warranted. I don't think I actually agree with
> the
> > tactic he proposes, it's too negative and controversial to be
effectively
> > accepted.
>
> Reasoning is what this idiot lacks. As for your latter part, I could'nt
> agree more.
Well you don't seem too ready to engage in the process of finding a solution
to what is clearly a serious and legitimate grievance, so I suggest you look
to home before criticising anyone's reasoning. The guy makes perfect sense
to me, because I understand where he's coming from.
How could you say it was 'better' ? All I did was replace "IWP" with "Tory"
!!
Blewyn
Jimmy Daniels
Blewyn <ble...@SPAM-ME-NOTbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a29o73$1tf$4...@news0.ifb.net...
> "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > What a crap comparison! You've totally missed the point. Opposing
They don't respect being forced either. Never did the arbitrary approach
bear fruit.
> I'm not advocating discrimination - but as a nation Wales must work within
> legal limits to impose their will on incomers instead of just hoping for
> goodwill. For every incomer that commits to learn and use our language
> there are nine who balk at the prospect, and insist that we speak their
> language instead.
What Wales must do will perhaps be an indication of how Wales votes.
Previous voting trends would suggest that the populace hardly agrees with
forcing this issue upon them. You've only to look at Plaid Cymru's very own
investigation into last years dismal election performance to see what
radical steps taken by some of it's members managed to achieve. Now we have
some of it's former members re-establishing themselves in the IWP with the
same agenda that has previously failed. I would add to what I say at the
beginning of this paragraph, that what you perceive as for the good of the
language cause, seem somewhat inconsistent with voting trends and hence
popularity amongst the people that make the difference before ideals become
policies, i.e the view of the majority that is desperately required for the
survival of the language. Current methods adopted by the radical
fundamentals are purely and simply futile.
> The whole point of my argument is that we should change the situation so
> that they DO give a shit. Quite frankly, if a people don't give a shit
> about themselves then there is no future for them.
That's the clear view of the majority, otherwise we'd see a different trend.
> > Need not be paranoid you say? With words like you've iterated above,
> that's
> > the impression you give. Come on Blewyn, English National stores bear
> fruit
> > due to people spending in them. Where are the Welsh store chains? Ah!
it's
> > the fault of the English I hear you cry.
> You don't seem to have grasped the point I'm making, in illustration of
the
> fact that ownership is based in England. Naturally people spend in the
> cheapest and best shops. National chains are able to sell cheaper and
> source better food than smaller chains or single shops, in general. There
> is no protection for the local retailer from national chain store
This applies to any small store, regardless of the geography.
> competitive power. Over the last 20 years, income from retail profit has
> been taken out of the hands of local business owners (who then tended to
> spend their income locally) and allowed to fall into the hands of people
> like the Sainsbury family.
This has happened because people chose to spend there. They are attracted
primarily by the choice and very often, a cheaper deal for the goods.
> All the profits from the 3 major food shops in
> Caernarfon go straight to London, and never come back. 30 years ago, all
> those same profits went to local pockets, and remained in the local
economy,
> to be recycled over and over again creating economic growth.
Again, who is to blame for this? Are the Welsh people that spend there
accountable for anything? Times have changed Blewyn and everyone has made a
contribution in that change. You seem to cry foul at London on all issues.
Never once to you honestly admit to the accountability of the people that
make them profitable. This is where I believe that your argument as heard by
many is left wide open to scrutiny. It's always someone else's fault.
> I know that this sad story could be repeated for many places in England,
but
> that's not the concern of this NG. My argument is that a Welsh government
> would be a much more effective buffer against this kind of drain on the
> Welsh economy, and would no doubt take a much keener interest in such
'small
> town' problems than the urban-focused and media-obsessed Lodon government.
If it's to remain beyond the concern of this NG, I would therefore suggest
to you that you cease to make comparisons with England.
> > The profits of these Companies can flow where the Companies desire.
Many
> > Welsh people benefit in the form of share dividends as the English do
and
> > stores based in Wales employ Welsh people. You fail to mention this. No
> > recirculation you say? Bollocks, you seem to have very limited
commercial
> > knowledge Blewyn.
> On the contrary. I recommend that you read up about the multiplier effect
> with regards to how an economy sustains itself. Share dividends. Do me a
> favour.
Share dividents are a multi-million pound industry. I note that you say
nothing of the thousands of Welsh people that are employed by these lare
Corporations? Of course this has no relevance whatsoever does it?
> > > No necessarily more capable than the current paid professionals, but
> > > specifically mandated to develop the Welsh economy, focused on Welsh
> > > development, and committed to Welsh prosperity. Our current leaders
> > simply
> > > regard the Welsh economy as a side issue that is only important
insofar
> as
> > > it's effects on the main English economy.
> >
> > But you suggested more professional people. Again you decline to provide
> > specifics to improve on the status quo. Better this and better that just
> > convinces nobody.
>
> Nonsense. It's obvious to the dimmest that a person who is mandated to
> focus specifically on Wales, with no regard to a political master in
> England, is bound to be more interested and committed to improving the
Welsh
> economy. What kind of specifics do you want ?
Specifics to justify your resentment beyond - "but specifically mandated to
develop the Welsh economy, focused on Welsh development, and committed to
Welsh prosperity."
Development of the welsh economy?
Focussed on Welsh development?
Commited to welsh prosperity?
Any one of the political parties can include these points in their mandate.
These points are as old as politics itself.
> > No more than I think that you give a toss about Westminster. Your point?
> My point being that Welsh people should realise that Westminster does not
> represent their interests and that they would be better off running their
> own affairs.
The electorate clearly does'nt agree with you. If they did agree with you,
they would also have to agree to gamble the status quo versus the comedians
at the Assembly. I seriously don't believe that the majority of Welsh people
want a fully devolved Wales. For that we'll have to wait unfortunately.
> > Oh, tacky or what? Using the language as a powerful tool. It's abusing
the
> > language as a deliberate barrier.
> Business is business. Without a plummy English accent, surname and public
> school background will I get a job with Coutts ? Is that a deliberate
> barrier, or not ? Seems to me it's OK for some to use their skills to
> exclude others, but not for the rest of us.
But Welsh business depends on trading freely with the UK. It hardly achieves
it's business solely on Welsh trade only. Now you attempt to make a direct
analogy between accents and the learning of a completely new language and
that's several paragraphs after saying that the English issue is hardly
applicable on this Newsgroup. It's convenient all of a sudden?
> Whether you regard something as a valid skill or as a barrier depends on
> your point of view. I say the Welsh should use what they have to make the
> most that they can, instead of just giving it all away for no good reason.
Making Welsh compulsory as you no doubt wish throughout the Principality
will not achieve any more success in commerce, except for those directly
involved in such an implementation.
> > Your argument just does'nt wash especially
> > with your additive (Who can of course speak english as well) They are
> > speaking it first Blewyn every one of Wales's 80%. Put things in
> perpective.
>
> All the more reason to learn Welsh !
An opinion no doubt shared amongst the few of the 20% who already speak it.
The problem facing you is that the remaining 80% are apparently doing just
fine without. Putting restrictions upon them to change that trend, is a
minority proportion putting restrictions on the majority for the sake of the
minority achieving their objectives. No doubt that democracy will prevail
and the current choice will continue to ensue as per the needs and
expectations of the majority.
> > > Or maybe you think that the Welsh
> > > people have no right to any kind of competitive advantages over
anyone?
> > The word advantage beyond merit in any business can not be associated
with
> > competition.
> Who defines merit ? A bank that talks to me in Welsh merits my business.
> That's something I'll pay for. That's a competitive advantage my bank
has.
Merit is something I would gauge as an achievement gained on a level keel.
Not an achievement gained whilst your competitors are handicapped. Bringing
the langage into the commercial arena in the form of a pre-requisite is
warranted only if that commercial environment demands such. At present you
can not claim that it's a necessity for the smooth running of Welsh
Commerce. It's not a necessity throughout Wales. You would make this a
pre-requisite to achieve two aims, namely to further the use of the Language
and to dissadvantage the competition for the sake of creating an unfair
environment, contrary to the current one you may well feel difficult to
compete in.
> > If you have the type of advantage you would like to put in
> > place, then there is no possible way I can see how you can count your
> > Laurels some way down the road when you know in your mind that you
> achieved
> > what you have primarily because of the deliberate use of putting a
> > linguistic barrier in front of the competition that you haver already
> > admitted to be failing to compete against. This would make you nothing
> other
> > than a king of a very small Castle. Bit like putting your football
> > opposition in chains.
> Fine. In that case, do you want to open the whole job market of the UK to
> applicants from the whole world, including those engineers and doctors
from
> very poor countries who will gladly work 18 hours a day for half a UK wage
?
It's already established Blewyn. Nurses from the Phillipines are already
here, filling a void in the NHS
> The only thing currently keeping them out is the entirely abstract and
> man-made barrier of our passport control and employment laws.
Passports are a necessity for National Security. Passports in Wales are the
concept of the Lunatics within the IWP.
> > I'll bet you my bottom dollar, you will not see any significant
> conversions
> > from the existing 80% You've a mountain to climb it seems.
> The great majority of Welsh parents are very keen for their children to
> learn and use Welsh at school, and express regret that they never learnt
the
> language themselves.
If what you claim is entirely true then perhaps in three decades, 80% of
Wales will be speaking Welsh? You know it' won't happen, because learning it
in school results in it's little use thereafter by the vasts that have
learned it. Others do what you have done and leave.
> > Easy for you and for me to say. Not everyone wants to learn Welsh and
not
> > everyone has the ability to learn new languages. Growing up with it is
> > another matter and a piece of cake.
> Not everyone has the ability to sing - does that mean that we shouldn't
> reward singers for their talents ?
That's another awfull analogy. Rewarding someone is one thing. Compulsory
restrictions and insistence that they learn is a completely different matter
and contrary to the interests of the majority you'd like to see change their
ways. You'll never force them Blewyn!
> > Totally different kettle of fish. In germany, German is the main
language.
> > In the Netherlands, it's Dutch. In France it's French and in Wales
albeit
> to
> > your utmost dissaproval, it's English.
>
> In Europe, the main language is English. My question stands.
So does my answer.
> Never said we should force the issue - but we don't have to make it
> extra-easy for people to say 'no thanks', especially in Welsh-speaking
> areas.
Whoe are these "We" you are making reference to? The minority? The majority?
The existing indeginous Welsh speakers living in Wales? or the existing
Welsh indeginous non-Welsh speakers living in Wales? or even the ex-Pats?
Who are the "we's" Blewyn?
> > Many of which make no use of it afterwards. Some do and some do not.
> Because they do not perceive any advantage in doing so. This is what we
> have to change - after all , we all speak English so we have nothing to
> lose.
Exactly! How do you propose that they see any advantage? Are you to tell
them that they can continue to have what they already have, provided that
they learn? or are you proposing something extra for them as an incentive?
> > I'm certainly not. I just don't see any expertise in many areas that
have
> > derived from the indeginous. You've only to look at the domination of
> > Doctors and Surgeons for example to see one example. Mind you I think
that
> > the mix that we have is very healthy.
> I'll agree that the indigenous culture has been slow to encourage many
areas
> of endeavour - but this can be fairly attributed to many internal and
> external influences which I won't go into here for fear of inflaming
another
> "ya boo sucks" flame war. Suffice it to say that we should regard the
> situation as something to be improved upon as we go forwards.
I agree.
> > You need to mature a little Blewyn. It's not a lie, it's an opinion and
a
> > conclusion that I reached several years ago. You disagree, that's ok
with
> > me. You will not find high quality personnel in Wales for ANY venture,
> hence
> > the Brain Drain.
> How then do they run the Llanberis Hydro-Electric station, Wylfa power
> station ? Who comprises the crew of the Rowan California oil rig (clue :
> they're not Yanks). Come on JD, there may be a brain drain but surely
this
> argument is a little contrived to say the least.
I never said that they do not exist, besides I meant to say "every" instead
of "any" in the above statement. It's hardly a contrived argument. You have
said that Wales does'nt complement your current skills on this very
Newsgroup. That very statemet you make, aligns with what I claim.
> > Good in some areas and pretty crap in others. Restaurants can be fom
> > moderate to diabolical,
> Try the White Horse (I think) on the main road in Beaumaris.
I could better that in the same village- The Bull (brasserie) but a standard
common and often bettered in the larger cities
> > Garage Services, I'd say the same.
> Garages are diabolical everywhere, Wales has no monopoly here.
May well be.
> > Road Surfaces in
> > this Country are probable amongst the Worst in Europe.
> Hahaha get a bloody grip. Go for a drive in Malta or Greece sometime.
They are an exception. Even their runways are poor.
> > Who is forcing you to use it right now?
>
> No-one. I use Welsh too, but no point preaching to the converted.
Precisely the point I'm making. You choose to write in English. How can you
expect others to do the contrary? You may well converse and write in the
Welsh medium, but I know for a fact that your usernet contributions as
clearly visible on google, is "almost" entirely in the English form. Yet you
were'nt forced were you? The forced argument is very weak during the
post-oppression era Blewyn. What matters most is what people are doing
right now and your trend is a typical Welsh trend despite being an ex-pat
and that very same trend makes no possitive contribution to what you portray
as important, hence the survival of the WL. You are doing precisely what the
majority are doing and that's fully utilising a language that you feel
dominates too much. How you move on from here to implement what I suspect
does'nt really bother you quite enough is entirely up to you.
> > It goes further afield Blewyn. Welsh is practically useless beyond Wales
> and
> > even in certain Parts of Wales itself. Let's be honest about it?
> I take your point, but my question stands. Who gains if Welsh speakers
stop
> using Welsh ?
I would'nt know. I speak Welsh daily. I could only speculate. Who loses if
everyone stops using Welsh except for Welsh teachers, professional
translators, printers and S4C? I would however remind you however, that I
certainly have no desire to see it's extinction. I simply see current
adopted methods by some groups I could mention as purely futile.
> Put another way - I have a big box of plasters in my house. They never
get
> used, and I paid for them. Should I simply not buy them in future ?
Don't bother, until you come close to running out of your current stock.
Your point? please tell me I've missed a good analogy?
> I have a customer who speaks Welsh. All my competitors are English
> speakers. Do I need to draw a picture ?
No you don't. So you feel you have an advantage. What would the bulk of your
customers (English) say to you if you said they "had to" learn Welsh? I'd
suggest that they'd say soemthing along the lines of FO Blewyn I'll go
somewhere else! Do I need to draw a picture?
> Apartheid WAS superficial, that's the whole point about it. Look it up.
You seem to need an update to your current dictionary. Apartheid is still
used as a description of segregation.
> > It's an artificial skill created. it's not a necessity to function.
> Who defines whether a skill is 'artificial' or not ? Tracy Emin makes
> thousands by making her bed an art installation. Is her skill
'artificial'
> ?
A skill is regarded as artificial if it's put in place in an environment
that can operate without it. As for Tracy Emin's bed, well some people will
appreciate anything after a few joints. It appeals to some I suppose.
> You say that speaking Welsh is an 'artificial' skill not necessary to
> function. So's playing football, ballet dancing, singing, culinary
> expertise, poetry.....the list goes on and on. The point is to learn the
> skills that are in demand, or create the demand for the skills that you
> have.
You are deliberately missing the point here. Show me examples whereby the
Welsh skill as you put it is an absolute essential skill for Wales to
operate it's daily functions? In other words Blewyn, show me examples
whereby people can not understand any means of communication in it's absence
in Wales? This is the "skill" you want put in place in every situation is it
not? Your football, ballet, dancing and singing examples are skills and so
is any language. They are all artificial at certain levels. People have had
to work on those skills and are only appropriate in certain environments all
the same. Yet your Welsh skill is somehow a necessity albeit contrary to the
current trend and demand. That's artificial.
> > Now if
> > you said that exist people that do not understand beyond the Welsh, then
> > fair enough. Call it anything you like buit it's hardly a necessity
> whereby
> > it's absence would mean the job would not be done.
> Why take a utilitarian attitude to Welsh when so much of our economy is
> based on luxury and fashion ?
Any different to anywhere else?
>The Welsh people have very little to sell
> that is not available in England - why not capitalise on the single
biggest
> competitive skill ? Or do you just want Wales to always be the poor
relation
> in the UK ?
You somehow manage to put the Welsh language and prosperity together as
though they were interchangeable. Increasing it's use is all well and good.
It has little to do with Wales's future prosperity. Mind you, I'm all ears.
(snip)
> > So they leave and the house becomes vacant. Those who leave provide
> avacant
> > house. Jack sais comes along and buys it. Welsh radical is jealous and
> > screams murder! More like the hard hitting truth?
> Wrong. Young people leave and parents stay behind. Eventually, parents
die
> and young people have by now settled elsewhere. House is bought by Jack
> Sais.
Did'nt say the contrary. You moan that Jack Sais buys what you left behind
and readilly admit that the ex-pat settles somewhere else
> > Let's now tranlate this one to a more truthful reality- Welshman sells
> > property and sells to the highest bidder. Highest bidder just so happens
> to
> > be an English person. result? Much the same - Jealous Welsh radical
cries
> > murder again and the irony of it all is that it's a Welsh person like
> > yourself has sold out
> I never sold anything in Wales, and I never will.
You sold yourself though?
> and it's also a Welsh person steered by greed that
> > takes the English money! and the real problem that's caused all this is
> > unemployment and piss poor jobs that the Welsh radical probably believes
> is
> > also the fault of anyone except their own.
> I'll concede this point, with a few qualifiers - unemployment and piss
poor
> jobs IS the fault of the UK government, the policy of which is decided by
> English opinion. Currently, it's an extreme sacrifice to ask of a Welsh
> person to forego thousands on a house sale, especially if they will then
> face Anglo-inflated prices to find a new place to live.
Come on Blewyn, it's an open market. Hardly a point in crying foul, just
because someone else other than you is prepared to pay more. Uk government
fault my arse.
> However, if a
> coherent taxation policy designed to protect Welsh-speaking markets
against
> the incursion of urban English buying power seen in the last 20 years is
> implemented, and the Welsh people understand that when they sell they will
> also be able to buy at similar prices, would that not allow the Welsh
> youngster who wants to continue working in the local garage but live in
his
> own place, to do so, and keep speaking his own language ?
Well now we have a situation whereby you are demanding that the Jack Sais
settler should also indirectly be your employer subsidiser. Shy should they?
Would you agree with the IWP proposal, i.e "While proposals cannot be
retrospective, holiday homes owned by in-comers with no family links to Y
Fro Gymraeg will pay five times the standard rate of Council Tax"....
Ł5,000 per anum Blewyn and Ł5000 per anum for Jack Sais? Is'nt this more of
an admission that some people simply have no get-up and go and are simply
down right passive, lazy, bone idle and incapable of initiative? And the
Welsh indeginous in these areas pay 1/5th of Jack's total. What a wonderful
initiative! What a convenient initiative for that matter! More importantly,
what a vote deterrent!
> Don't throw your dummy at me ! You obviously don't have any meaningful
> counter to my argument.
You don't have a strong argument Blewyn. All you manage to present are the
same excuses many have heard before and void of accepting any rersposibility
towards the failings of the indeginous.
> > Reasoning is what this idiot lacks. As for your latter part, I could'nt
> > agree more.
> Well you don't seem too ready to engage in the process of finding a
solution
> to what is clearly a serious and legitimate grievance, so I suggest you
look
> to home before criticising anyone's reasoning. The guy makes perfect
sense
> to me, because I understand where he's coming from.
I'd kick the lazy butts of the moaners into trying harder for themselves. As
for looking at home. I'm in Wales, making a living in Wales and employing
"WELSH" people. When you look to home you see East Angliaas an employee to a
gas Company. I'm not really concerned about East Anglia to be honest am
quite amazed how you are in the slighest bothered about this side of the
border. Not once have you acknowledged that these people should be
realistic, recognise their geographical spot and accept that prosperity and
back of certain beyonds simply will not mix. Yet you have the nerve to
suggest that Jack sais should make it as comfortable as possible for them in
the form of increased (Race taxation). Get real!
> How could you say it was 'better' ? All I did was replace "IWP" with
"Tory"
Because it's the original and more importantly applicable to the current
Lyn David Thomas
<jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote:
>What Wales must do will perhaps be an indication of how Wales votes.
>Previous voting trends would suggest that the populace hardly agrees with
>forcing this issue upon them. You've only to look at Plaid Cymru's very own
>investigation into last years dismal election performance to see what
>radical steps taken by some of it's members managed to achieve.
A 50% increase in the vote was not a dismal performance.
--
\/ Lyn David Thomas
Webpages start at:
http://www.cibwr.freeserve.co.uk
Jimmy Daniels
Lyn David Thomas <l...@cibwr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tcli4uc0043t2vc8l...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 21:51:24 -0000, "Jimmy Daniels"
> <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote:
>
> >What Wales must do will perhaps be an indication of how Wales votes.
> >Previous voting trends would suggest that the populace hardly agrees with
> >forcing this issue upon them. You've only to look at Plaid Cymru's very
own
> >investigation into last years dismal election performance to see what
> >radical steps taken by some of it's members managed to achieve.
>
> A 50% increase in the vote was not a dismal performance.
The point was that Plaid's own post mortem revealed a massive drop in
support from the previous Non-welsh speakers who had voted Plaid in the past
and also a drop amongst previous Welsh speaking voters. This was an
investigation that they carried out, resulting in blame directing at last
years controversial comments by some of it's members.
BTW how do you come up with a 50% increase on previous trends when Plaid
themselves initiated a survey to reveal reasons for what they saw as
disappointing?
Blewyn
"Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:jL028.51105$_x4.7...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Rubbish - the English have much greater respect for a powerful, determined
adversary than for a submissive ally. Witness the attention paid to Martin
McGuiness when he speaks - no 'bogtrotter' jokes for miles around.
> > I'm not advocating discrimination - but as a nation Wales must work
within
> > legal limits to impose their will on incomers instead of just hoping for
> > goodwill. For every incomer that commits to learn and use our language
> > there are nine who balk at the prospect, and insist that we speak their
> > language instead.
>
> What Wales must do will perhaps be an indication of how Wales votes.
> Previous voting trends would suggest that the populace hardly agrees with
> forcing this issue upon them. You've only to look at Plaid Cymru's very
own
> investigation into last years dismal election performance to see what
> radical steps taken by some of it's members managed to achieve. Now we
have
> some of it's former members re-establishing themselves in the IWP with the
> same agenda that has previously failed. I would add to what I say at the
> beginning of this paragraph, that what you perceive as for the good of the
> language cause, seem somewhat inconsistent with voting trends and hence
> popularity amongst the people that make the difference before ideals
become
> policies, i.e the view of the majority that is desperately required for
the
> survival of the language. Current methods adopted by the radical
> fundamentals are purely and simply futile.
The fact that most Welsh people currently simply follow the UK herd blindly
is not a counter to my argument about self-governance being more beneficial
for Wales. It just means that the idea needs to be thrust into the public
consciousness in a much more mature and determined fashion than has
previously been the case. Not an easy task, considering that the English
media is poised at all times to ridicule and tarnish the image of
well-meaning individuals like GabI, while giving ZERO positive coverage to
the pro-Welsh radicals.
> > The whole point of my argument is that we should change the situation so
> > that they DO give a shit. Quite frankly, if a people don't give a shit
> > about themselves then there is no future for them.
>
> That's the clear view of the majority, otherwise we'd see a different
trend.
The clear view of the majority is that they have no view. The argument for
self-governance is dominated by negative presumption on the part of those
who simply haven't given the idea any thought.
>
> > > Need not be paranoid you say? With words like you've iterated above,
> > that's
> > > the impression you give. Come on Blewyn, English National stores bear
> > fruit
> > > due to people spending in them. Where are the Welsh store chains? Ah!
> it's
> > > the fault of the English I hear you cry.
>
> > You don't seem to have grasped the point I'm making, in illustration of
> the
> > fact that ownership is based in England. Naturally people spend in the
> > cheapest and best shops. National chains are able to sell cheaper and
> > source better food than smaller chains or single shops, in general.
There
> > is no protection for the local retailer from national chain store
>
> This applies to any small store, regardless of the geography.
It does, like I've already said further down the post, and like I've already
said, that's doesn't alter the fact that this has happened throughout Wales.
As I keep saying, what happens in England is not really at issue here.
>
> > competitive power. Over the last 20 years, income from retail profit
has
> > been taken out of the hands of local business owners (who then tended to
> > spend their income locally) and allowed to fall into the hands of people
> > like the Sainsbury family.
>
> This has happened because people chose to spend there. They are attracted
> primarily by the choice and very often, a cheaper deal for the goods.
Again, I have already addressed this point further down the post.
> > All the profits from the 3 major food shops in
> > Caernarfon go straight to London, and never come back. 30 years ago,
all
> > those same profits went to local pockets, and remained in the local
> economy,
> > to be recycled over and over again creating economic growth.
>
> Again, who is to blame for this? Are the Welsh people that spend there
> accountable for anything? Times have changed Blewyn and everyone has made
a
> contribution in that change. You seem to cry foul at London on all issues.
> Never once to you honestly admit to the accountability of the people that
> make them profitable. This is where I believe that your argument as heard
by
> many is left wide open to scrutiny. It's always someone else's fault.
People cannot be expected to act in unison unless there is someone to lead
them. It is the government's job to do this. In the case above, the
government has clearly disregarded the interests of the people of Wales in
favour of those of Mr Sainsbury and his ilk, and in favour of London.
How many times do I have to repeat this - what happens is the responsibility
of those in control.
> > I know that this sad story could be repeated for many places in England,
> but
> > that's not the concern of this NG. My argument is that a Welsh
government
> > would be a much more effective buffer against this kind of drain on the
> > Welsh economy, and would no doubt take a much keener interest in such
> 'small
> > town' problems than the urban-focused and media-obsessed Lodon
government.
>
> If it's to remain beyond the concern of this NG, I would therefore suggest
> to you that you cease to make comparisons with England.
Any comparison I have drawn is specifically in reference to the fact that
Wales is governed, to all practical intents and purposes, by England.
> > > The profits of these Companies can flow where the Companies desire.
> Many
> > > Welsh people benefit in the form of share dividends as the English do
> and
> > > stores based in Wales employ Welsh people. You fail to mention this.
No
> > > recirculation you say? Bollocks, you seem to have very limited
> commercial
> > > knowledge Blewyn.
>
> > On the contrary. I recommend that you read up about the multiplier
effect
> > with regards to how an economy sustains itself. Share dividends. Do me
a
> > favour.
>
> Share dividents are a multi-million pound industry. I note that you say
> nothing of the thousands of Welsh people that are employed by these lare
> Corporations? Of course this has no relevance whatsoever does it?
You really do need to study some economics. The employment that you refer
to exists because there is a local demand from the services supplied. These
services can be supplied by companies based in Wales and owned in Wales just
as easily as they can by London-based nationals. The employment remains,
the only difference between the two cases is that if a company is based in
Wales and owned by the Welsh, then the profits and dividends are spent in
Wales, and recirculated around the local economy.
As for your point about dividends - yes, shares are available to all, but
what proportion of the low-wage low-wealth Welsh population do you think
benefot from dividends, compared to the population of England ?
If all the dividends generated by services and products bought in Wales and
England were added up, and the relative proportions calculated according to
the relative proportion of maney spent - do you think it would show a net
flow of money out of Wales, or into Wales ?
Your question is a diversionary tactic, and does not address my point.
National political parties can include these points in their manifesto,
yes, - but do they ? I put it to you that any attempts to improve the
standard of living within Wales are made strictly according to the desires
of the political leadership based in London only, and that our current
representives are too distracted by Westminster party politics and
intra-party politics to concentrate on really getting Wales up and running.
>
> > > No more than I think that you give a toss about Westminster. Your
point?
>
> > My point being that Welsh people should realise that Westminster does
not
> > represent their interests and that they would be better off running
their
> > own affairs.
>
> The electorate clearly does'nt agree with you. If they did agree with you,
> they would also have to agree to gamble the status quo versus the
comedians
> at the Assembly. I seriously don't believe that the majority of Welsh
people
> want a fully devolved Wales. For that we'll have to wait unfortunately.
The majority of Welsh people have never really considered the idea, or ever
really sat down and wondered whether the UK government really was trying to
improve the lot of Welsh people. When the idea is put to them, they
immediately feel threatened (especially if it's a Welsh-speaker putting it
to a non-speaker) by fear or the unknown. The challenge is to get the
Independence issue out into the public consciousness in a serious manner.
> > > Oh, tacky or what? Using the language as a powerful tool. It's abusing
> the
> > > language as a deliberate barrier.
>
> > Business is business. Without a plummy English accent, surname and
public
> > school background will I get a job with Coutts ? Is that a deliberate
> > barrier, or not ? Seems to me it's OK for some to use their skills to
> > exclude others, but not for the rest of us.
>
> But Welsh business depends on trading freely with the UK.
Trading freely throughout the EU, actually. There's no reason that should
stop - remember, we can all speak English AS WELL, right ?
> It hardly achieves
> it's business solely on Welsh trade only. Now you attempt to make a direct
> analogy between accents and the learning of a completely new language and
> that's several paragraphs after saying that the English issue is hardly
> applicable on this Newsgroup. It's convenient all of a sudden?
I'm demonstrating that what you call a "competitive barrier", implying that
it is somehow unfair, is a tactic already employed by business and commerce
in every market. The reason I chose a specifically English example is
because you were suggesting that it was morally wrong to remove the level
playing field for non-Welsh speakers. One rule for us and another for those
who already dominate their markets elsewhere ?
> > Whether you regard something as a valid skill or as a barrier depends on
> > your point of view. I say the Welsh should use what they have to make
the
> > most that they can, instead of just giving it all away for no good
reason.
>
> Making Welsh compulsory as you no doubt wish throughout the Principality
> will not achieve any more success in commerce, except for those directly
> involved in such an implementation.
I don't want to make it compulsory - although in some areas it already is
and should continue to be - I want to bring it into the centre of the Welsh
consciousness and make people realise that the English can never be relied
upon to share prosperity. we have to play to our own strengths, like the
Scots do and like the Irish do.
> > > Your argument just does'nt wash especially
> > > with your additive (Who can of course speak english as well) They are
> > > speaking it first Blewyn every one of Wales's 80%. Put things in
> > perpective.
> >
> > All the more reason to learn Welsh !
>
> An opinion no doubt shared amongst the few of the 20% who already speak
it.
> The problem facing you is that the remaining 80% are apparently doing just
> fine without. Putting restrictions upon them to change that trend, is a
> minority proportion putting restrictions on the majority for the sake of
the
> minority achieving their objectives. No doubt that democracy will prevail
> and the current choice will continue to ensue as per the needs and
> expectations of the majority.
Except if they can be persuaded otherwise, of course. The fact remains that
100% would be better off.
> > > > Or maybe you think that the Welsh
> > > > people have no right to any kind of competitive advantages over
> anyone?
>
> > > The word advantage beyond merit in any business can not be associated
> with
> > > competition.
>
> > Who defines merit ? A bank that talks to me in Welsh merits my business.
> > That's something I'll pay for. That's a competitive advantage my bank
> has.
>
> Merit is something I would gauge as an achievement gained on a level keel.
So my bank merited my custom.
You have an extremely naive view of business and competition. There is no
such thing as a level 'keel', there are only winners and losers. The job of
the government is to ensure that the winners are not allowed to remove
market competition because it stagnates the economy - a job it doesn't do
very well, in my opinion.
Example - Child A is raised in Henley, sent to Eton and Oxford, his/her
parents have many contacts in all manner of industries. Child B is raised
in Barnsley, on a council estate. Child B has a higher IQ than Child A.
Who merits advancement ?
> Not an achievement gained whilst your competitors are handicapped.
Losing competitors are always 'handicapped', in comparison to the winners.
I can't enter the airline business because I don't have enough money to buy
planes. Am I 'handicapped', in comparison to Freddie Laker ? Besides - are
you in favour of economic advancement for Wales or not ?
> Bringing
> the langage into the commercial arena in the form of a pre-requisite is
> warranted only if that commercial environment demands such. At present you
> can not claim that it's a necessity for the smooth running of Welsh
> Commerce. It's not a necessity throughout Wales. You would make this a
> pre-requisite to achieve two aims, namely to further the use of the
Language
> and to dissadvantage the competition for the sake of creating an unfair
> environment, contrary to the current one you may well feel difficult to
> compete in.
Unfair ? We're talking about business here ? What's this 'fairness' nonsense
you keep banging on about ? Do you want to compete more effectively against
the English or not ?
> > > If you have the type of advantage you would like to put in
> > > place, then there is no possible way I can see how you can count your
> > > Laurels some way down the road when you know in your mind that you
> > achieved
> > > what you have primarily because of the deliberate use of putting a
> > > linguistic barrier in front of the competition that you haver already
> > > admitted to be failing to compete against. This would make you nothing
> > other
> > > than a king of a very small Castle. Bit like putting your football
> > > opposition in chains.
>
> > Fine. In that case, do you want to open the whole job market of the UK
to
> > applicants from the whole world, including those engineers and doctors
> from
> > very poor countries who will gladly work 18 hours a day for half a UK
wage
> ?
>
> It's already established Blewyn. Nurses from the Phillipines are already
> here, filling a void in the NHS
Brought over specifically because not enough nurses could be recruited
locally (see it's cheaper than taking the steps necessary to make UK people
want to be nurses). Now answer the question properly.
> > The only thing currently keeping them out is the entirely abstract and
> > man-made barrier of our passport control and employment laws.
>
> Passports are a necessity for National Security. Passports in Wales are
the
> concept of the Lunatics within the IWP.
No-one is advocating passports in Wales. You fail utterly to answer my
point i.e. that abstract and contrived barriers to competition in the job
market already exist to protect UK jobs - at least what I propose is built
around a legitimate skill.
> > > I'll bet you my bottom dollar, you will not see any significant
> > conversions
> > > from the existing 80% You've a mountain to climb it seems.
>
> > The great majority of Welsh parents are very keen for their children to
> > learn and use Welsh at school, and express regret that they never learnt
> the
> > language themselves.
>
> If what you claim is entirely true then perhaps in three decades, 80% of
> Wales will be speaking Welsh? You know it' won't happen, because learning
it
> in school results in it's little use thereafter by the vasts that have
> learned it. Others do what you have done and leave.
This is why we have to make Welsh advantageous to people in adult life in
Wales.
> > > Easy for you and for me to say. Not everyone wants to learn Welsh and
> not
> > > everyone has the ability to learn new languages. Growing up with it is
> > > another matter and a piece of cake.
>
> > Not everyone has the ability to sing - does that mean that we shouldn't
> > reward singers for their talents ?
>
> That's another awfull analogy. Rewarding someone is one thing. Compulsory
> restrictions and insistence that they learn is a completely different
matter
> and contrary to the interests of the majority you'd like to see change
their
> ways. You'll never force them Blewyn!
No - but I might persuade them that forcing their children will make their
children richer when they grow up..and I might make them understand that
they will be more marketable in the job market if they learn it..
> > > Totally different kettle of fish. In germany, German is the main
> language.
> > > In the Netherlands, it's Dutch. In France it's French and in Wales
> albeit
> > to
> > > your utmost dissaproval, it's English.
> >
> > In Europe, the main language is English. My question stands.
>
> So does my answer.
NO, IT DOESN'T. Would you go to Germany and insist that all business should
take place in the dominant EU language, in order to remove 'unfair'
competition ?
> > Never said we should force the issue - but we don't have to make it
> > extra-easy for people to say 'no thanks', especially in Welsh-speaking
> > areas.
>
> Whoe are these "We" you are making reference to? The minority? The
majority?
> The existing indeginous Welsh speakers living in Wales? or the existing
> Welsh indeginous non-Welsh speakers living in Wales? or even the ex-Pats?
> Who are the "we's" Blewyn?
We - the Welsh people. Don't even think of carrying this line any further
'cos i'll just snip it.
> > > Many of which make no use of it afterwards. Some do and some do not.
>
> > Because they do not perceive any advantage in doing so. This is what we
> > have to change - after all , we all speak English so we have nothing to
> > lose.
>
> Exactly! How do you propose that they see any advantage? Are you to tell
> them that they can continue to have what they already have, provided that
> they learn? or are you proposing something extra for them as an incentive?
Aha - the crux of the matter..I'll bet you think anything other than
something extra is 'unfair', don't you ? Well sometimes life just ain't
fair. I'm not here to be fair - I'm here to propose ideas to improve the
propserity of Wales, and arrest the plebeian cultural and media onslaught
from England and America.
I want the Welsh people to realise that by taking back their control over
local jobs and sales to local people, they can begin to fight back against
UK national (ie English) business domination and ownership.
The fact that my skills do not currently find use in Wales doesn't mean that
you couldn't set up a company doing what mine does in Wales. In fact, it
means the opposite.
> > > Good in some areas and pretty crap in others. Restaurants can be fom
> > > moderate to diabolical,
>
> > Try the White Horse (I think) on the main road in Beaumaris.
>
> I could better that in the same village- The Bull (brasserie) but a
standard
> common and often bettered in the larger cities
I think that's the one I meant - and I wouldn't really agree that the
standard there is 'common and often bettered'. I eat regularly in Mayfair,
London at some very good restaurants. OK so you won't find Gordon Ramsay in
Llanberis anytime soon - but I think you're being very unfair and making a
rash generalisation about Welsh restaurants.
> > > Who is forcing you to use it right now?
> >
> > No-one. I use Welsh too, but no point preaching to the converted.
>
> Precisely the point I'm making. You choose to write in English. How can
you
> expect others to do the contrary? You may well converse and write in the
> Welsh medium, but I know for a fact that your usernet contributions as
> clearly visible on google, is "almost" entirely in the English form. Yet
you
> were'nt forced were you? The forced argument is very weak during the
> post-oppression era Blewyn. What matters most is what people are doing
> right now and your trend is a typical Welsh trend despite being an ex-pat
> and that very same trend makes no possitive contribution to what you
portray
> as important, hence the survival of the WL. You are doing precisely what
the
> majority are doing and that's fully utilising a language that you feel
> dominates too much. How you move on from here to implement what I suspect
> does'nt really bother you quite enough is entirely up to you.
I live and work in England with very little Welsh contact. What can I do ?
If but one person is swayed by reading my arguments here, then it's all
worthwhile. Besides, Llion/Nigel/RH et al put so much anti-Welsh drivel on
here, they simply cannot be left unopposed.
> > > It goes further afield Blewyn. Welsh is practically useless beyond
Wales
> > and
> > > even in certain Parts of Wales itself. Let's be honest about it?
>
> > I take your point, but my question stands. Who gains if Welsh speakers
> stop
> > using Welsh ?
>
> I would'nt know.
Non-Welsh speakers, of course.
> I speak Welsh daily. I could only speculate. Who loses if
> everyone stops using Welsh except for Welsh teachers, professional
> translators, printers and S4C? I would however remind you however, that I
> certainly have no desire to see it's extinction. I simply see current
> adopted methods by some groups I could mention as purely futile.
Maybe not entirely futile, but probably ineffectual in persuading the
mainstream Welsh population to think further than voting Lab/Con and hoping
for the best again..
> > Put another way - I have a big box of plasters in my house. They never
> get
> > used, and I paid for them. Should I simply not buy them in future ?
>
> Don't bother, until you come close to running out of your current stock.
> Your point? please tell me I've missed a good analogy?
My point being that plasters are hardly ever used - but they're very useful
when you need them.
> > I have a customer who speaks Welsh. All my competitors are English
> > speakers. Do I need to draw a picture ?
>
> No you don't. So you feel you have an advantage. What would the bulk of
your
> customers (English) say to you if you said they "had to" learn Welsh? I'd
> suggest that they'd say soemthing along the lines of FO Blewyn I'll go
> somewhere else! Do I need to draw a picture?
They don't have to. I speak English.
> > Apartheid WAS superficial, that's the whole point about it. Look it up.
>
> You seem to need an update to your current dictionary. Apartheid is still
> used as a description of segregation.
Yes - a specific type of segregation, based not on a bone fide skill but on
a contrived standard linked to an unchangeable physical difference over
which the segregated people have no control. Quite different to what I'm
talking about.
> > > It's an artificial skill created. it's not a necessity to function.
>
> > Who defines whether a skill is 'artificial' or not ? Tracy Emin makes
> > thousands by making her bed an art installation. Is her skill
> 'artificial'
> > ?
>
> A skill is regarded as artificial if it's put in place in an environment
> that can operate without it. As for Tracy Emin's bed, well some people
will
> appreciate anything after a few joints. It appeals to some I suppose.
But what if the aim is to change the environment, for one's own benefit ?
> > You say that speaking Welsh is an 'artificial' skill not necessary to
> > function. So's playing football, ballet dancing, singing, culinary
> > expertise, poetry.....the list goes on and on. The point is to learn
the
> > skills that are in demand, or create the demand for the skills that you
> > have.
>
> You are deliberately missing the point here. Show me examples whereby the
> Welsh skill as you put it is an absolute essential skill for Wales to
> operate it's daily functions?
It is essential for bank staff to speak Welsh in order to get my business.
Small example I know, but it's a start. The point of my argument is to work
to increase the market influence of Welsh. As a country, we can all only
benefit from it, both culturally and financially.
In other words Blewyn, show me examples
> whereby people can not understand any means of communication in it's
absence
> in Wales? This is the "skill" you want put in place in every situation is
it
> not? Your football, ballet, dancing and singing examples are skills and so
> is any language. They are all artificial at certain levels. People have
had
> to work on those skills and are only appropriate in certain environments
all
> the same. Yet your Welsh skill is somehow a necessity albeit contrary to
the
> current trend and demand. That's artificial.
I never said it was a necessity in all current situations. You're asking
the same question twice here, and I've already answered it above. Wales can
indeed get by without Welsh - but is 'getting by' all Welsh people want ?
What about securing some of that government administration spending, setting
up a financial centre in Cardiff, increasing the volume of Welsh media (in
both languages), increasing the local job market power of Welsh people,
securing MUCH more American/English/Australian tourist dollars ? The list
goes on and on...
> > > Now if
> > > you said that exist people that do not understand beyond the Welsh,
then
> > > fair enough. Call it anything you like buit it's hardly a necessity
> > whereby
> > > it's absence would mean the job would not be done.
>
> > Why take a utilitarian attitude to Welsh when so much of our economy is
> > based on luxury and fashion ?
>
> Any different to anywhere else?
No - but why take a utilitarian attitude to Welsh then ? Wouldn't it better
serve the Welsh economy if we could, for example, make it trendy ?
> >The Welsh people have very little to sell
> > that is not available in England - why not capitalise on the single
> biggest
> > competitive skill ? Or do you just want Wales to always be the poor
> relation
> > in the UK ?
>
> You somehow manage to put the Welsh language and prosperity together as
> though they were interchangeable. Increasing it's use is all well and
good.
> It has little to do with Wales's future prosperity. Mind you, I'm all
ears.
Please elaborate. Are you saying that we couldn't use the language to a)
Combat English competition in the job market b)Improve international profile
of Welsh culture ? The language, independence and prosperity ARE all
inherently linked. Without self-government there will be NO prosperity in
Wales over and above that which English popular opinion wants. Wales has
been the UK's poor relation for ever. The UK government has NO motive to
improve Welsh prosperity in relation to that of England, and plenty of
motive to do the opposite.
> > > So they leave and the house becomes vacant. Those who leave provide
> > avacant
> > > house. Jack sais comes along and buys it. Welsh radical is jealous and
> > > screams murder! More like the hard hitting truth?
>
> > Wrong. Young people leave and parents stay behind. Eventually, parents
> die
> > and young people have by now settled elsewhere. House is bought by Jack
> > Sais.
>
> Did'nt say the contrary. You moan that Jack Sais buys what you left behind
> and readilly admit that the ex-pat settles somewhere else
If there are no jobs in an area people will emigrate. If a rich person
wants a holiday home, then a local person will be priced out of the area.
We should work to reverse this trend, no ?
> > > Let's now tranlate this one to a more truthful reality- Welshman sells
> > > property and sells to the highest bidder. Highest bidder just so
happens
> > to
> > > be an English person. result? Much the same - Jealous Welsh radical
> cries
> > > murder again and the irony of it all is that it's a Welsh person like
> > > yourself has sold out
>
> > I never sold anything in Wales, and I never will.
>
> You sold yourself though?
Puhleeze, cut the meldrama. What do you want me to do - make a big personal
sacrifice, to satisfy the unevenly applied 'moral' standards of anti-Welsh
posters in this NG ? It don't work that way.
> > and it's also a Welsh person steered by greed that
> > > takes the English money! and the real problem that's caused all this
is
> > > unemployment and piss poor jobs that the Welsh radical probably
believes
> > is
> > > also the fault of anyone except their own.
>
> > I'll concede this point, with a few qualifiers - unemployment and piss
> poor
> > jobs IS the fault of the UK government, the policy of which is decided
by
> > English opinion. Currently, it's an extreme sacrifice to ask of a Welsh
> > person to forego thousands on a house sale, especially if they will then
> > face Anglo-inflated prices to find a new place to live.
>
> Come on Blewyn, it's an open market. Hardly a point in crying foul, just
> because someone else other than you is prepared to pay more. Uk government
> fault my arse.
It's an open market, but not a level playing field (as you consistently
demand). Now if prices were set as a proportion of the overall wealth of
the buyer - now there's a level playing field.
Who but the UK government has allowed the situation to arise whereby Welsh
properties are priced out of Welsh pockets ? A Welsh government would never
have allowed this to happen..
> > However, if a
> > coherent taxation policy designed to protect Welsh-speaking markets
> against
> > the incursion of urban English buying power seen in the last 20 years is
> > implemented, and the Welsh people understand that when they sell they
will
> > also be able to buy at similar prices, would that not allow the Welsh
> > youngster who wants to continue working in the local garage but live in
> his
> > own place, to do so, and keep speaking his own language ?
>
> Well now we have a situation whereby you are demanding that the Jack Sais
> settler should also indirectly be your employer subsidiser. Shy should
they?
Because they can stop once they can demonstrate a good conversational level
of Welsh, and then they will no longer be directly responsible for
destroying the language.
> Would you agree with the IWP proposal, i.e "While proposals cannot be
> retrospective, holiday homes owned by in-comers with no family links to Y
> Fro Gymraeg will pay five times the standard rate of Council Tax"....
Absolutely - that goes for any part of the UK, in my opinion.
> £5,000 per anum Blewyn and £5000 per anum for Jack Sais? Is'nt this more
of
> an admission that some people simply have no get-up and go and are simply
> down right passive, lazy, bone idle and incapable of initiative? And the
> Welsh indeginous in these areas pay 1/5th of Jack's total. What a
wonderful
> initiative! What a convenient initiative for that matter! More
importantly,
> what a vote deterrent!
You're not making any sense - why is this vote deterrent.
> > Don't throw your dummy at me ! You obviously don't have any meaningful
> > counter to my argument.
>
> You don't have a strong argument Blewyn.
So deconstruct it. Go on.
> > > Reasoning is what this idiot lacks. As for your latter part, I
could'nt
> > > agree more.
>
> > Well you don't seem too ready to engage in the process of finding a
> solution
> > to what is clearly a serious and legitimate grievance, so I suggest you
> look
> > to home before criticising anyone's reasoning. The guy makes perfect
> sense
> > to me, because I understand where he's coming from.
>
> I'd kick the lazy butts of the moaners into trying harder for themselves.
AH - now we're getting closer to the truth. You work hard and all the
people around you are lazy, right ? But you think they should work hard,
even though all their lives they have seen people around them work hard and
get nothing for it.
So you want to remove any advantage Wales may have over England, just to
make sure that these 'lazy moaners' don't get a head-start. Never mind the
fact that English competitve companies are always going to be better funded
and that many markets are already captured by them.
The truth about you, JD, is that you'd rather see your countrymen suffer
than prosper, because you feel it's unfair that you work so hard and some of
them don't.
As
> for looking at home. I'm in Wales, making a living in Wales and employing
> "WELSH" people.
I said 'look to home' as in 'sbia adra', ie. analyse your own behaviour
before you criticise others. You're not exactly a fount of reason, JD.
When you look to home you see East Angliaas an employee to a
> gas Company. I'm not really concerned about East Anglia to be honest am
> quite amazed how you are in the slighest bothered about this side of the
> border.
I'm Welsh.
> Not once have you acknowledged that these people should be
> realistic, recognise their geographical spot and accept that prosperity
and
> back of certain beyonds simply will not mix.
A loser's mentality. Shame on you. You want to deny any chance to the
Welsh people because you haven't the guts to consider standing up to the
English establishment.
> Yet you have the nerve to
> suggest that Jack sais should make it as comfortable as possible for them
in
> the form of increased (Race taxation). Get real!
Jack Sais make it comfortable !? I never said any such thing ! Screw what
Jack Sais wants or doesn't want - I say the Welsh people should recognise
what's good for them and TAKE it.
Blewyn
Shon
Blewyn <ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a2bvi1$q14$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:jL028.51105$_x4.7...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > Who are these "We" you are making reference to? The minority? The
> majority?
> > The existing indeginous Welsh speakers living in Wales? or the existing
> > Welsh indeginous non-Welsh speakers living in Wales? or even the
ex-Pats?
> > Who are the "we's" Blewyn?
>
> We - the Welsh people. Don't even think of carrying this line any further
> 'cos i'll just snip it.
It's pretty clear to anyone that has witnessed this particualr accusation at
you Blwyn that you have great difficulty dealing with some home truths. As
they say here in Wales- "Mae'r Gwir yn Lladd"! (The truth Kills). Since you
are a permanent resident of the East Anglia working for Transco or whoever,
I fail to see how on Earth you have the nerve to present yourself as Welsh.
You may also want to note that that since you left Caernarfon some years
ago, public opinion has somewhat changed since. Jimmy Daniels wrote in his
last post to you and claimed that the proposals put forward by the IWP were
a vote deterrent. I'll tell you what. I'll take note of what I'm about to
state and remind you, post next assembly Elections. The performance of the
IWP on that occassion, will undoubtedly conclude whether your views on
recent issues discussed in this thread are popular views. The housing policy
of the IWP will ensure that they will be slaughtered. Please take note of
that and I for one will certainly remind you after the votes have been
counted. Now perhaps you can commit yourself and suggest what you believe
the outcome will be on whether the former Plaid Cymru Splinter group, now
known as the IWP will gain enough support to enable them to tax the English
in Wales on Annual rates by the five fold they propose.
Shon
Rifleman
> known as the IWP will gain enough support to enable them to tax the
English
> in Wales on Annual rates by the five fold they propose.
>
>
> Shon
>
at best it was only a principality, its no more a seperate entity today than
cornwall or northumbria.
>
>
Taff
"Rifleman" <rifl...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:9zl28.51080$WQ1.8...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> now
> > Why ??? Wales is not a county, it never was, its only a region of
England,
> at best it was only a principality, its no more a seperate entity today
than
> cornwall or northumbria.
> >
LOL your not starting this one again are you rifleman
Blewyn
"Shon" <sh...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a2ci62$pn8$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
>
>
> Blewyn <ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a2bvi1$q14$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
>
> > "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > news:jL028.51105$_x4.7...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> > > Who are these "We" you are making reference to? The minority? The
> > majority?
> > > The existing indeginous Welsh speakers living in Wales? or the
existing
> > > Welsh indeginous non-Welsh speakers living in Wales? or even the
> ex-Pats?
> > > Who are the "we's" Blewyn?
> >
> > We - the Welsh people. Don't even think of carrying this line any
further
> > 'cos i'll just snip it.
>
> It's pretty clear to anyone that has witnessed this particualr accusation
at
> you Blwyn that you have great difficulty dealing with some home truths. As
> they say here in Wales- "Mae'r Gwir yn Lladd"! (The truth Kills). Since
you
> are a permanent resident of the East Anglia working for Transco or
whoever,
> I fail to see how on Earth you have the nerve to present yourself as
Welsh.
Who said I was a permanent resident of East Anglia ?
If you moved to Edinburgh, would that make you Scottish ? My family is from
Wales, has been for 400 years, I speak Welsh as a 1st language, and use the
language every day. I'm Welsh, whether you like it or not.
> You may also want to note that that since you left Caernarfon some years
> ago, public opinion has somewhat changed since. Jimmy Daniels wrote in his
> last post to you and claimed that the proposals put forward by the IWP
were
> a vote deterrent. I'll tell you what. I'll take note of what I'm about to
> state and remind you, post next assembly Elections. The performance of the
> IWP on that occassion, will undoubtedly conclude whether your views on
> recent issues discussed in this thread are popular views. The housing
policy
> of the IWP will ensure that they will be slaughtered. Please take note of
> that and I for one will certainly remind you after the votes have been
> counted. Now perhaps you can commit yourself and suggest what you believe
> the outcome will be on whether the former Plaid Cymru Splinter group, now
> known as the IWP will gain enough support to enable them to tax the
English
> in Wales on Annual rates by the five fold they propose.
Hold on, you seem to be under the impression I'm here on behalf of the IWP.
I'm not. And reiterating JD's point abouth their lack of popularity only
confirms my argument, ie that we need to get this issue in the open in a
contructive and mature manner. The IWP have made an easy target of
themselves for non-constructive whingers and vested interests.
And none of the above has anything to do with the topic of this thread -
that I believe that Wales would be culturally and economically better off
running it's own affairs.
Blewyn
Blewyn
news:9zl28.51080$WQ1.8...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
Wales is what the Welsh say it is, Sais Boy.
Blewyn
Lyn David Thomas
<ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote:
>And none of the above has anything to do with the topic of this thread -
>that I believe that Wales would be culturally and economically better off
>running it's own affairs.
Let's face it the current system has not served Wales well. We aren't
exactly rich as a result of our affairs being run by the UK
governments.
Newsgroup list trimmed
Steve Smith
And what are you doing here in England taking one of our jobs. Sod off back
to Wales you hypocrite.
alanG
<l...@cibwr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Jan 2002 11:51:11 +0000 (UTC), "Blewyn"
><ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>And none of the above has anything to do with the topic of this thread -
>>that I believe that Wales would be culturally and economically better off
>>running it's own affairs.
>
>
>Let's face it the current system has not served Wales well. We aren't
>exactly rich as a result of our affairs being run by the UK
>governments.
Nowhere outside of the SE of England has prospered in the last 60
years. Wales has declined along with all those other wealth creating
areas simply because the wealth has been siphoned off to fuel a SE
boom instead of being ploughed back into R&D in the local industries.
>
>Newsgroup list trimmed
Newsgroup list untrimmed
--
Alan G
Fight for a fairer tax system
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alan.goss/Index.html
My address is wrong
Rifleman
> Wales is what the Welsh say it is, Sais Boy.
>
> Blewyn
>
Rifleman
>
> If you moved to Edinburgh, would that make you Scottish ? My family is
from
> Wales, has been for 400 years, I speak Welsh as a 1st language, and use
the
> language every day. I'm Welsh, whether you like it or not.
>
If a dog is born in a stable is it a horse?
Its like african people saying they are English or british, It needs time
served in the country you claim blended with its culture over hundreds of
years, not what happened yesterday or 10 years ago.
Simon Archer
>> >
>
> And what are you doing here in England taking one of our jobs. Sod off back
> to Wales you hypocrite.
I think you'll find we're probably better at it than you are old son.
This is why most firms worth a toss in London are largely run by the
Welsh, Irish and Scots.And of course we practically own the BBC now.
We easily capable of not only running our own countries, but help you
keep England off it's knee's also.
alanG
<rifl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> If you moved to Edinburgh, would that make you Scottish ? My family is
>from
>> Wales, has been for 400 years, I speak Welsh as a 1st language, and use
>the
>> language every day. I'm Welsh, whether you like it or not.
>>
>If a dog is born in a stable is it a horse?
Nope
If it's born in a stable in scotland it will be a scottish dog
though.
>
>Its like african people saying they are English or british, It needs time
>served in the country you claim blended with its culture over hundreds of
>years, not what happened yesterday or 10 years ago.
>
Bollox
Rifleman
> Bollox
> --
> Alan G
Not at all, for decades after the Saxons invaded or the Vikings settled in
the country they did not claim to be Angles, Jutes, celt or Britons, it took
time , lots of time and much social interaction for them to meld into one
cohesive people, If an australian couple have a baby in England its a
british passport holder, but By god most Aussies would raise it as
Australian, Its the same with all nations that have strong cultural
identities, they can simply describe themselves as British they claim to be
Afro British, Carib Brits, just like in the US where they claim to be White
american, native American , hispanic american, or black american. I know
full well if a nglish couple had a child whilst living in wales,esp the
north it would not be accepted as Welsh by the local community, it would be
seen as and english kid born locally.
Blewyn
news:a2ehuj$10q5m3$1...@ID-123292.news.dfncis.de...
> And what are you doing here in England taking one of our jobs. Sod off
back
> to Wales you hypocrite.
'Your' jobs ? My work serves the whole UK, not just England. Besides, if
you want my job, you'll just have to compete with me for it...
Any EU citizen may live and work in any EU country.
Blewyn
Blewyn
> Its like african people saying they are English or british, It needs time
> served in the country you claim blended with its culture over hundreds of
> years, not what happened yesterday or 10 years ago.
Er..what are you saying here ?
If a black person is born and raised in London, and they say they are
English, then they are English.
Blewyn
Blewyn
> I know
> full well if a nglish couple had a child whilst living in wales,esp the
> north it would not be accepted as Welsh by the local community, it would
be
> seen as and english kid born locally.
That all depends on the English family. If they take part in the community
and integrate, especially if they learn Welsh, then they will soon be
considered local. Whether they want to call themselves Welsh or not is up
to them.
I had plenty of schoolfriends who had English parents, but they are as Welsh
as I am.
Blewyn
Rifleman
> If a black person is born and raised in London, and they say they are
> English, then they are English.
>
> Blewyn
>
for social behavour, along with the rest of their family, they have
inegrated completely into our way of life, but bring with them their own
culture to share with us, not to force their culture upon us, They do not
for example multilate there womens genitals, nor lock there women away,
there children are taught as equals not boys ahead of girls, etc etc you
have heard the debate before, anyway yes providing they blend in with us and
become an integral part of us without losing their original cultural heitage
yes they will qwuickly, within 4 or 5 generations become british britons,
Have a look at some africans who have lived in Cardiff and Glasgow since
the late 1800s they are as british as you or I, but look at some of them in
London,even after 30 years and three generations they are still Caribs,
Afghans, Nigerians etc but live in London, they have brit passports but in
no way are they british.
I spose I am going to get called a racist again now.
Trampus
--
"You are always a Joy"
"Blewyn" <ble...@SPAM-ME-NOTbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a2grdq$b8b$1...@news0.ifb.net...
> I had plenty of schoolfriends who had English parents, but they are as
Welsh
> as I am.
Poor Bastards!
Blewyn
Nearly, but not quite. Let me get this straight - if a 1st generation (ie
child of immigrant) Afro-Brit is born in the UK and adopts the UK way of
life, ie using the UK language (whichever it may be in their area) and
refraining from those practices which are unacceptable to the UK majority
(not including religious observances), then they are British ?
Blewyn
Rifleman
> child of immigrant) Afro-Brit is born in the UK and adopts the UK way of
> life, ie using the UK language (whichever it may be in their area) and
> refraining from those practices which are unacceptable to the UK majority
> (not including religious observances), then they are British ?
>
> Blewyn
>
become a good british citizen, following the norms of behavour and culture
for a north european country,
tries to integrate himself to our ways not alter us to forcibly accomodate
his needs, then i would classify him as british. Bugger me with a Bananna I
have met Indians and New zealanders who are more British than many of us..
I see Britishness as a way of life rather than a individual creed, He must
be free to follow his own faith and beliefs in the privacy of his own home
or church, but if as an example his religion called for him to chop the head
off a goat in the street, or to marry a child he has never met, and he
wishes to make us accept that into our society then I would not call him
british, just a foriegn guy with a brit passport.
Steve Smith
it.
Blewyn
Fair enough, I think there's quite a few who would agree with you on this,
myself included.
Blewyn
Blewyn
> "Blewyn" <ble...@SPAM-ME-NOTbtinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a2gpit$ank$1...@news0.ifb.net...
> >
> > Blewyn
> >
> >
> Except if you are English and want to live in Wales. Or so you would like
> it.
Just where do you derive this deranged conclusion from ?
Blewyn
Rifleman
> Fair enough, I think there's quite a few who would agree with you on this,
> myself included.
>
> Blewyn
>
> If I moved to Taffland and intended to stay there I would need to learn
local accepted customs and practise, not isolate myself in a ghetto full of
other English, If the natives spoke Taff, then I would have to learn Taff to
show the locals respect.
Taff
As he said any EU citizen may live and "WORK" in any EU country, the key
word being
WORK, it's not the fact that they're English it's the fact that they are
scrounging doley bastards that think they might as well be on the dole next
to the beach rather than in the town or city they have fucked up!
Steve Smith
Earlier postings mate...
In this case, all those
living in areas considered to be in need of protection from foreign buying
power would be classed as local. Note 'living in' not 'owning a property
in'. Even though the primary motivator is to protect Welsh from the advance
of McEnglishT, IMO any distinction as to purchasing rights should not be
drawn along cultural boundaries.
Blewyn
Or ...
Like I keep saying, the Welsh have a right to determine their own policies
and run their own country. What happens in England is the business of the
English.
Or ..
I don't see how this is related. The situation of the English economy is
the concern of the English.
Blewyn
I got bored reading through the great saying of Blewyn at this point.
Thought it quite funny though that his job involves the delivery of gas,
just the ticket for a welsh person I would have thought;-)
Rifleman
"Taff" <mar...@combatsupplies.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a2hu9a$4n2$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
So whats your view on the thousands of the Welsh Ex miners and steel workers
living off the dole?
ciderman
> So there you have it. Anyone who opposes the advance of McEnglish has
> 'hangups'. Anyone who wants to retain some local protection against the
> all-devouring Anglo-Saxon multinational media corporations is quite clearly
> full of 'hangups', as are those who simply want to protect their own way of
> life.
>
> McEnglish - We Own You (tm)
>
No one is being forced to speak English. Most Welsh people *chose* to
because it is more widely spoken and hence more useful. What's the
problem?
Lyn David Thomas
I don't think I have ever seen Blewyn say that English people should
not be permitted to live in Wales. Indeed I know several who have -
(including front bench Plaid Cymru Assembly members.
Taff
If they had up sticks and moved to your area simply because it was a nicer
place to be out of work and then became a burden on your local resources,
stretching the police, hospitals and other services I would be disgusted.
What did you expect me to say rifleman? Like I said I don't mind people
coming to work, but places like Rhyl Colwyn Bay etc they are all turning
into scouse and manc doley work-dodging scum infested drug pits.
Lyn David Thomas
Indeed - I live in Butetown in Cardiff, one of the few majority non
white areas in Wales. I have yet to here anyone describe themselves
as anything else other than Welsh - yes many of them may have other
cultural connections, but that doesn't lessen their own perception (or
mine) of them being Welsh.
Rifleman
> What did you expect me to say rifleman? Like I said I don't mind people
> coming to work, but places like Rhyl Colwyn Bay etc they are all turning
> into scouse and manc doley work-dodging scum infested drug pits.
>
> I see and understand but they say exctly the same thing about
Liverpudlians and welsh youngsters in Brighton and Hove, and some of
thesurfing areas of Cornwall are full of young displaced Welsh folk with no
hope of finfing jobs at home, they hang around the beaches and bars all day,
you will find hundreds of unemployed Geordies loafing around here and there
as well.
>
Rifleman
> I don't think I have ever seen Blewyn say that English people should
> not be permitted to live in Wales. Indeed I know several who have -
> (including front bench Plaid Cymru Assembly members.
I dont know why, its as much a part of England as Northumbria for example,
Wales has a regional identity much the same as yorkshire but its not an
independant country and never has been,, its only ever been a principality
at best. They must have rose tinted glasses on.
Blewyn
Wales is what the Welsh say it is - a distinct and separate nation, and in
the future a distinct and separate country, hopefully. It, along with
Cornwall and Scotland, it what remains of the British pre-Anglo-Saxon
culture. It has NEVER been part of England, and it NEVER will be part of
England.
Blewyn
Blewyn
news:9b8p4ukhqof8c9et7...@4ax.com...
> I don't think I have ever seen Blewyn say that English people should
> not be permitted to live in Wales. Indeed I know several who have -
> (including front bench Plaid Cymru Assembly members.
Can you provide quotes or references ?
Blewyn
Blewyn
And indeed to enjoy all that such linguistic participation has to offer -
but unfotunately there are legions of immigrants who simply don't think this
way.
Blewyn
Blewyn
At least I explain my position clearly, rather than making generalised
accusations and then running away. The first quote above relates
specifically to my belief that some local property markets should be
protected from purchase by those who would not support the community. Note
that there is no distinction drawn as to nationality - I would be restricted
from buying a second home in these areas just like anyone else.
The second and third quotes make the point that what happens in England
really is not the concern of this NG, and that it must not be used to define
what can be done within Wales.
Neither of these two arguments mean that I want to keep the English out of
Wales, and I have never said any such thing.
Blewyn
Blewyn
news:ae9cd66c.02012...@posting.google.com...
There is a very definite tradition of most Welsh people being forced to
speak English in order to participate in local government, in the law, and a
general arrogant insistence on the part of the English that the Welsh always
use English, even within Wales. Most Welsh people have lost their own
language through a combination of ignorance and fear, bred in a culture that
has been browbeaten and continually reminded of their 'poor cousin' status
for the last 800 years.
There is no problem - if you don't want prosperity for Wales and don't mind
Wales simply becoming West Anglia.
Blewyn
Rifleman
> accusations and then running away. The first quote above relates
> specifically to my belief that some local property markets should be
> protected from purchase by those who would not support the community.
Note
> that there is no distinction drawn as to nationality - I would be
restricted
> from buying a second home in these areas just like anyone else.
The same property price problems occur up here in the North east with rich
southerners buying up houses and pishing up prices so local geordies and
other northerners can not afford homes, so its not a welsh thing its a
national problem
NWT
Perhaps we should have trade and send them all back then we can sort out our
own problems.
I would like to see a ruling that if you relocate to a new place, if you
don't find permanent work within six months they should return back from
whence they came. That's as fair as you can get.
Jimmy Daniels
Blewyn <ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a2bvi1$q14$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> LONG POST
>
> "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:jL028.51105$_x4.7...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
A very long post that is about to be heavily snipped.
> > They don't respect being forced either.
> Rubbish - the English have much greater respect for a powerful, determined
> adversary than for a submissive ally. Witness the attention paid to
Martin
> McGuiness when he speaks - no 'bogtrotter' jokes for miles around.
If what you claim is more of a reality rather than sentiment, I for one will
settle for the performance of the IWP at the next election, since they
certainly do appear to me to be forcing the issue. Let's see what transpires
eh?
> The fact that most Welsh people currently simply follow the UK herd
blindly
> is not a counter to my argument about self-governance being more
beneficial
> for Wales. It just means that the idea needs to be thrust into the public
> consciousness in a much more mature and determined fashion than has
> previously been the case. Not an easy task, considering that the English
> media is poised at all times to ridicule and tarnish the image of
> well-meaning individuals like GabI, while giving ZERO positive coverage to
> the pro-Welsh radicals.
To accuse the majority of being like blind herds following the UK trend is
an arrogant assumption of a minority view. You may well have ignored that
their voting pattern is based on what they the majority consider as voting
for what they believe, hence contrary to your view. Another point you may
well have missed or deliberately ignored is that the view of anti-English
figures like GabI have been universally condemned by all the media, not just
the English derived. Not one paper or television source I've seen condones
GabI's anti-English ranting views and that includes the Welsh media albeit
to the few that exist. Perhaps you can produce a counter to that claim?
> The clear view of the majority is that they have no view. The argument
for
> self-governance is dominated by negative presumption on the part of those
> who simply haven't given the idea any thought.
More arrogance it seems. Your Halo is in need of a slight polish. No, not
there, left a bit, yup that's it.
> > This applies to any small store, regardless of the geography.
> It does, like I've already said further down the post, and like I've
already
> said, that's doesn't alter the fact that this has happened throughout
Wales.
> As I keep saying, what happens in England is not really at issue here.
It simply points to the fact that Wales is no different and can hardly be
presented as a hardship example
> People cannot be expected to act in unison unless there is someone to lead
> them. It is the government's job to do this. In the case above, the
> government has clearly disregarded the interests of the people of Wales in
> favour of those of Mr Sainsbury and his ilk, and in favour of London.
Well Mr Sainsbury, Mr Tesco and Mr Safeway employ a large number of Welsh
people in Wales. Stop moaning like a spoilt child. Perhaps these
organisations should be taken out of Wales and perhaps this time round
someone like yourself will show some conviction and set up an equivallent?
> How many times do I have to repeat this - what happens is the
responsibility
> of those in control.
What happens is consequential of who and how many provide support, i.e the
custom. They are the Welsh people and it's time for you to accept this.
> > If it's to remain beyond the concern of this NG, I would therefore
suggest
> > to you that you cease to make comparisons with England.
> Any comparison I have drawn is specifically in reference to the fact that
> Wales is governed, to all practical intents and purposes, by England.
So there is clearly much relevance. Let's have an element of consistency.
> > Share dividents are a multi-million pound industry. I note that you say
> > nothing of the thousands of Welsh people that are employed by these lare
> > Corporations? Of course this has no relevance whatsoever does it?
> You really do need to study some economics.
Er??? I'm a Welshman, living, working and employing Welsh people in Wales
Blewyn. I did'nt turn my back on it and went for the easier option of
working for someone else across the border. Believe me, I've a sound
knowledge of economics with a business CV of almost 20 years to prove it and
stretching right through the last recession. Many others have done likewise
and yet have to listen to your patronising naive rants.
> As for your point about dividends - yes, shares are available to all, but
> what proportion of the low-wage low-wealth Welsh population do you think
> benefot from dividends, compared to the population of England ?
Less, because we have less people living in Wales.
> If all the dividends generated by services and products bought in Wales
and
> England were added up, and the relative proportions calculated according
to
> the relative proportion of maney spent - do you think it would show a net
> flow of money out of Wales, or into Wales ?
Into Wales and also into England. I think you could have asked that question
a little different if you intended to receive a certain reply. Dividends are
not a result of products bought, They are the direct result of Company
performance related shares bought.
> I don't want to make it compulsory - although in some areas it already is
> and should continue to be - I want to bring it into the centre of the
Welsh
> consciousness and make people realise that the English can never be relied
> upon to share prosperity. we have to play to our own strengths, like the
> Scots do and like the Irish do.
If you want to bring it to the centre of the Welsh consciousness and be
taken seriously, you need to be here in Wales and not in the East Anglia.
You can cry foul again if you wish,
> > The problem facing you is that the remaining 80% are apparently doing
just
> > fine without. Putting restrictions upon them to change that trend, is a
> > minority proportion putting restrictions on the majority for the sake of
> the
> > minority achieving their objectives. No doubt that democracy will
prevail
> > and the current choice will continue to ensue as per the needs and
> > expectations of the majority.
> Except if they can be persuaded otherwise, of course. The fact remains
that
> 100% would be better off.
I disagree that 100% would be better off. Since when has your opinion become
fact?
> You have an extremely naive view of business and competition.
I must have a very naive view of business Blewyn. In business for almost 20
years. Have you run your "OWN" business? Until then you will also know very
little about competition. I don't think your qualified to be honest Blewyn.
You often waffle in areas you know very little about. Managing for someone
else is one thing. Running your own is quite a different kettle of fish,
especially in a geographic location you could'nt even get off the ground.
> > Not an achievement gained whilst your competitors are handicapped.
> Losing competitors are always 'handicapped', in comparison to the winners.
> I can't enter the airline business because I don't have enough money to
buy
> planes. Am I 'handicapped', in comparison to Freddie Laker ? Besides -
are
> you in favour of economic advancement for Wales or not ?
Losing competitors become handicapped to the superior performance of the
other. It's not a condition from the onset. This is what you want to create,
when you insist that the Welsh language becomes a necessity in Welsh
commerce, contrary to the current situation. I am in favour of economic
advancement in Wales and I'm also in favour of people using a little more
initiative, instead of waiting for governments to create an artificial
environment for them and holding their hand or in the environment you would
like to see implemented, i.e handcuffing the non-Welsh speaker.
> Unfair ? We're talking about business here ? What's this 'fairness'
nonsense
> you keep banging on about ? Do you want to compete more effectively
against
> the English or not ?
I'm competing against the English and the Welsh right now. I don't need to
disadvantage the competition. If anyone needs to do that, it's best that
they remain working for someone else, instead of being permanently molley
coddled in a false environment.
> > It's already established Blewyn. Nurses from the Phillipines are already
> > here, filling a void in the NHS
>
> Brought over specifically because not enough nurses could be recruited
> locally (see it's cheaper than taking the steps necessary to make UK
people
> want to be nurses). Now answer the question properly.
I've answered the question
> > If what you claim is entirely true then perhaps in three decades, 80% of
> > Wales will be speaking Welsh? You know it' won't happen, because
learning
> it
> > in school results in it's little use thereafter by the vasts that have
> > learned it. Others do what you have done and leave.
> This is why we have to make Welsh advantageous to people in adult life in
> Wales.
Like I've said, the "We" over here don't think so.
> > You'll never force them Blewyn!
> No - but I might persuade them that forcing their children will make their
> children richer when they grow up..and I might make them understand that
> they will be more marketable in the job market if they learn it..
Richer? What a load of twaddle. But if you think you can persuade them,
perhaps you need to consider coming home to do that? If that's too much of a
sacrifice for you, then you'll surely understand if people don't listen to
you?
> NO, IT DOESN'T. Would you go to Germany and insist that all business
should
> take place in the dominant EU language, in order to remove 'unfair'
> competition ?
This is an awful analogy. You still don't accept that in Germany, they speak
German. In France it's French and likewise in the Netherlands. In Wales it's
English. That is the main Commercial language. Now that is fact. This is
what you want to change.
> > Whoe are these "We" you are making reference to? The minority? The
> majority?
> > The existing indeginous Welsh speakers living in Wales? or the existing
> > Welsh indeginous non-Welsh speakers living in Wales? or even the
ex-Pats?
> > Who are the "we's" Blewyn?
>
> We - the Welsh people. Don't even think of carrying this line any further
> 'cos i'll just snip it.
Like Shon said- The truth hurts and that's blatantly obvious.
> > Exactly! How do you propose that they see any advantage? Are you to tell
> > them that they can continue to have what they already have, provided
that
> > they learn? or are you proposing something extra for them as an
incentive?
> Aha - the crux of the matter..I'll bet you think anything other than
> something extra is 'unfair', don't you ? Well sometimes life just ain't
> fair. I'm not here to be fair - I'm here to propose ideas to improve the
> propserity of Wales, and arrest the plebeian cultural and media onslaught
> from England and America.
I'm being realistic and totally ignoring the value of sentiment on this
issue. You need to have the support of the Welsh voter to achieve what you
wish and yet you appear to concede that what you would like to see
implemented offers them nothing in return. Time to wake up to reality Blewyn
> I want the Welsh people to realise that by taking back their control over
> local jobs and sales to local people, they can begin to fight back against
> UK national (ie English) business domination and ownership.
Wales never had control of the scale of today's commerce. What they had
control was nowhere near to today's growth and scale. Stop dreaming man.
> The fact that my skills do not currently find use in Wales doesn't mean
that
> you couldn't set up a company doing what mine does in Wales. In fact, it
> means the opposite.
Ah, so you want Wales to put some oil rigs in place for you?
> > majority are doing and that's fully utilising a language that you feel
> > dominates too much. How you move on from here to implement what I
suspect
> > does'nt really bother you quite enough is entirely up to you.
> I live and work in England with very little Welsh contact. What can I do
?
> If but one person is swayed by reading my arguments here, then it's all
> worthwhile. Besides, Llion/Nigel/RH et al put so much anti-Welsh drivel
on
> here, they simply cannot be left unopposed.
I don't see what they's written to be drivel, nor do I see what they say as
anti-Welsh. I see them as being more Welsh than you. They are in wales and
supprting the Welsh economy. You make no such contribution.
> Maybe not entirely futile, but probably ineffectual in persuading the
> mainstream Welsh population to think further than voting Lab/Con and
hoping
> for the best again..
Best of luck to you. I would imagine Labour masturbating at the moment with
the way Plaid have been split right down the middle with the recent
defections. How ironic it's all turned out. The once united Nationalists
have now been split into two, Plaid and the fundamental radicals - IWP.
> But what if the aim is to change the environment, for one's own benefit ?
Any idiot would presume that to be the motive anyway.
> > You are deliberately missing the point here. Show me examples whereby
the
> > Welsh skill as you put it is an absolute essential skill for Wales to
> > operate it's daily functions?
> It is essential for bank staff to speak Welsh in order to get my business.
> Small example I know, but it's a start. The point of my argument is to
work
> to increase the market influence of Welsh. As a country, we can all only
> benefit from it, both culturally and financially.
A pathetic example. If all Banks ignored your call, what would you do? Harly
essential and that's all you can come up with.?My goodness we have an
urgency for drastic changes to make Welsh mandatory, right across the board!
> I never said it was a necessity in all current situations. You're asking
> the same question twice here, and I've already answered it above. Wales
can
> indeed get by without Welsh - but is 'getting by' all Welsh people want ?
> What about securing some of that government administration spending,
setting
> up a financial centre in Cardiff, increasing the volume of Welsh media (in
> both languages), increasing the local job market power of Welsh people,
> securing MUCH more American/English/Australian tourist dollars ? The list
> goes on and on...
I've asked you to present examples whereby Welsh is "essential". You have
failed to do this.
> > You somehow manage to put the Welsh language and prosperity together as
> > though they were interchangeable. Increasing it's use is all well and
> good.
> > It has little to do with Wales's future prosperity. Mind you, I'm all
> ears.
> Please elaborate. Are you saying that we couldn't use the language to a)
> Combat English competition in the job market b)Improve international
profile
> of Welsh culture ? The language, independence and prosperity ARE all
> inherently linked. Without self-government there will be NO prosperity in
> Wales over and above that which English popular opinion wants. Wales has
> been the UK's poor relation for ever. The UK government has NO motive to
> improve Welsh prosperity in relation to that of England, and plenty of
> motive to do the opposite.
What you are suggesting is no more than eliminating the competition by using
a form of communication beyond the reach of the non-Welsh speaker. No matter
how you dress this one up, this is what you are suggesting. Language has
absolutely f*** all to do with prosperity and anyone who thinks otherwise is
in cuckoo land.
> > Did'nt say the contrary. You moan that Jack Sais buys what you left
behind
> > and readilly admit that the ex-pat settles somewhere else
> If there are no jobs in an area people will emigrate. If a rich person
> wants a holiday home, then a local person will be priced out of the area.
> We should work to reverse this trend, no ?
The only trend you need to reverse is the prosperity of the region and that
means jobs. Tell me how stopping Jack Sais's Welsh settlement achieves an
increase in availability of jobs. what you would end up with is a "Welsh
Only" Ghetto, unless the Welsh themselves initiate something to contradict
this no prosperity situation. You're in a dream World Blewyn.
> > > I never sold anything in Wales, and I never will.
> > You sold yourself though?
> Puhleeze, cut the meldrama. What do you want me to do - make a big
personal
> sacrifice, to satisfy the unevenly applied 'moral' standards of anti-Welsh
> posters in this NG ? It don't work that way.
Stay over there is what I want you to do. I know like many others what your
big sacrifice is. Stop moaning about what others do until you do make a
sacrifice. You did sell yourself, contrary to what you said when you
stated - "I never sold anything in Wales, and I never will".
> > Come on Blewyn, it's an open market. Hardly a point in crying foul, just
> > because someone else other than you is prepared to pay more. Uk
government
> > fault my arse.
> It's an open market, but not a level playing field (as you consistently
> demand). Now if prices were set as a proportion of the overall wealth of
> the buyer - now there's a level playing field.
Prices have gone up because the Welsh people selling them want more money
for their property and some of the English are prepared to pay. Now stop
bullshitting your way along trying to claim that the Housing market is
inflated for any other reason beyond that hard hitting truth you refuse to
face up to.
> Who but the UK government has allowed the situation to arise whereby Welsh
> properties are priced out of Welsh pockets ? A Welsh government would
never
> have allowed this to happen..
Naivety beyond belief. Answer as above.
> > Well now we have a situation whereby you are demanding that the Jack
Sais
> > settler should also indirectly be your employer subsidiser. Shy should
> they?
> Because they can stop once they can demonstrate a good conversational
level
> of Welsh, and then they will no longer be directly responsible for
> destroying the language.
I see, so now we are going back to the similar concept adopted by Seimon
Glyn on the Radio wales Interview which can only be interpreted as
"Intergrate and you will not receive a financial penalty" or "Do as we do
and you'll be ok" I can see it becoming policy Blewyn. Can I bollocks.
> > Would you agree with the IWP proposal, i.e "While proposals cannot be
> > retrospective, holiday homes owned by in-comers with no family links to
Y
> > Fro Gymraeg will pay five times the standard rate of Council Tax"....
> Absolutely - that goes for any part of the UK, in my opinion.
Wonderful. I've no doubt that the voters will show their disgust at the
ballot box.
> > £5,000 per anum Blewyn and £5000 per anum for Jack Sais? Is'nt this more
> of
> > an admission that some people simply have no get-up and go and are
simply
> > down right passive, lazy, bone idle and incapable of initiative? And the
> > Welsh indeginous in these areas pay 1/5th of Jack's total. What a
> wonderful
> > initiative! What a convenient initiative for that matter! More
> importantly,
> > what a vote deterrent!
> You're not making any sense - why is this vote deterrent.
Because the proposal will only achieve the support of the radical
anti-English voter. There are'nt enough of you. Makes plenty of sense to me.
> > You don't have a strong argument Blewyn.
>
> So deconstruct it. Go on.
Nothing has been built that's worthy of dismantling.
> > I'd kick the lazy butts of the moaners into trying harder for
themselves.
> AH - now we're getting closer to the truth. You work hard and all the
> people around you are lazy, right ?
No, many Welsh people work hard.
>But you think they should work hard,
> even though all their lives they have seen people around them work hard
and
> get nothing for it.
Are you suggesting some remain lazy? that's what it looks like
> So you want to remove any advantage Wales may have over England, just to
> make sure that these 'lazy moaners' don't get a head-start.
No lazy moaner should have any head start, regardless of where they are.
Again, are you suggesting otherwise? Again, it appears so.
> Never mind the
> fact that English competitve companies are always going to be better
funded
> and that many markets are already captured by them.
Oh, what a hardship. Time to catch up then is'nt it Blewyn. Na, we can't
have that can we, we want to go straight to the premier league and the only
way to achieve this is to handcuff the competition. pathetic!
> The truth about you, JD, is that you'd rather see your countrymen suffer
> than prosper, because you feel it's unfair that you work so hard and some
of
> them don't.
No Blewyn, the truth about me is that I love Wales enough to be here. I love
wales enough to do as many others do and employ Welsh people. I suppose I'm
making them really suffer are'nt I. Perhaps I should stop employing Welsh
people, do what you have done and try to find a better financial offer in
England? The truth about me, my arse! Look at yourself Blewyn!
> As
> > for looking at home. I'm in Wales, making a living in Wales and
employing
> > "WELSH" people.
> I said 'look to home' as in 'sbia adra', ie. analyse your own behaviour
> before you criticise others. You're not exactly a fount of reason, JD.
That's what I'm doing and it appears clear to me that I'm making more of a
contribution than you, the person that thinks that he's cast from the
ultimate Welsh mould. There's some real truths for you to ponder at
> When you look to home you see East Angliaas an employee to a
> > gas Company. I'm not really concerned about East Anglia to be honest am
> > quite amazed how you are in the slighest bothered about this side of the
> > border.
> I'm Welsh.
Fair enough, If Derby born Welsh MP Dafydd Wigley is perceived by some as
English, I suppose you could call yourself Welsh. I just don't see your
conviction.
> > Not once have you acknowledged that these people should be
> > realistic, recognise their geographical spot and accept that prosperity
> and
> > back of certain beyonds simply will not mix.
> A loser's mentality. Shame on you. You want to deny any chance to the
> Welsh people because you haven't the guts to consider standing up to the
> English establishment.
You have the naivety to believe that geographic location has no bearing on
prosperity. I heard Bill Gates is moving his entire empire over to
Llanaelhaearn
> Jack Sais make it comfortable !? I never said any such thing ! Screw what
> Jack Sais wants or doesn't want - I say the Welsh people should recognise
> what's good for them and TAKE it.
How you can say Screw the English and not expect criticism is beyond me.
Blewyn
Indeed - but this thread topic specifically relates to Wales and it's
relationship with England. If a bad situation exists in England, does that
mean that the Welsh should necessarily put up with the same ?
Blewyn
Lyn David Thomas
Indeed it is, which is why it is worth looking at what places like the
Lake District are doing. Again I live in a poor area where all the
new development is outside the ability of the locals to buy (or rent)
the new build property. There is an added dimension in Wales, one of
assimilating non-Welsh speakers into a predominantly Welsh speaking
community. This is an issue of awareness and resouces.
Lyn David Thomas
Then you are either ignorant or a troll, for it has been both an
independent state and a kingdom, it also has more than a regional
identity. To suggest that Wales is just a provice of England is at
best insulting. Which makes me think you are just a troll.
Lyn David Thomas
Bugger - bad editing on my part...
It should read that several English people who have settled in Wales
include people who are frontbench spokespeople for Plaid Cymru in the
National Assembly.
Rifleman
>
> Then you are either ignorant or a troll, for it has been both an
> independent state and a kingdom, it also has more than a regional
> identity. To suggest that Wales is just a provice of England is at
> best insulting. Which makes me think you are just a troll.
No sir, I am not trolling, I believe what i was taught in School as a child
and what my Welsh mother has told me over the years, Even on the History
channel only a few weeks ago was the same statement made by an academic who
is far better educated than I, He stated as I have been taught that the most
Wales has been in recent history isd a principality, not a country, what
happened on theses isles before King Arther and claims made upon those dates
are just wishful fantasy.
It like like the Ireland for the Irish tomfoolery spouted off by the
republicans, If we go back to ancient and interesting but silly history the
country tghey claim ownership belonged to the Scottis or the cots as they
are known now.
Claiming Wales as an independant country is really just romantic wishful
thinging at best, I dont wish to cause offence but in the realworld thats
the facts, Cornwall has a greater claim to soveriegnty than Wales, as does
Liverpool in the guise of Mercia, as does the ancient kingdom of Northumbria
land of the prince bishops.
Your dreams of an independant homeland for theWelsh is honourable and to be
respected, but in this modern world which we all have to live in with its
global market place Wales would be hard pushed to stand alone.Good luck to
you with your dreams though.
Rifleman
"Lyn David Thomas" <BTW attacking someone as a trioll simply because they do
not share your romantic and fanciful dreams is not on, most people can agree
to disagree with being petulant, But in the last few days it seams that does
not include the welsh.
Taff
> most people can agree to disagree with being petulant, But in the last few
days it seams that does
> not include the welsh.
Meeooowwww!!!
Err I don't see a team being entered from the kingdom of Northumbria into
the six NATIONS rugby competition! LOL
Rifleman
> Err I don't see a team being entered from the kingdom of Northumbria into
> the six NATIONS rugby competition! LOL
What the point we would win hands down, trhen find the welsh had burnt our
houses down whilst we were away:O)
>
>
>
Rifleman
we are shagging your women :o)
>
Taff
ciderman
Historically you have a point but is this still much of an issue?
>
> There is no problem - if you don't want prosperity for Wales and don't mind
> Wales simply becoming West Anglia.
How does discouraging the world's most useful language help to achieve
prosperity for Wales? Do you really have so little Welsh national
identity that you would consider yourself "West Anglian" but for your
language?
> Blewyn
Marc Living
>Meeooowwww!!!
Do you likewise believe that, because the Irish RFU totally ignored
the events of 1922 (and thereafter), the whole of Ireland therefore
remains part of the UK?
There are plenty of arguments available to those who wish to prove a
(former) separation between England and Wales - not least the fact
that, had they *not* once been considered separate countries, there
would have been nothing for Henry Tudor (a Welshman) to unite.
There are also arguments to the effect that the idea of there having
been separate and discrete countries depends on an idea of nationality
and nationalism which just didn't exist before the 18th century.
There are even arguments that, whatever once may have been the case,
the populations have become so intermingled that "welshness" and
"englishness" are no longer anything more than affectations - which
have more in common with (football-team-type) tribalism than
nationalism.
Either way. I don't think that the rules of the various RFUs have much
to contribute to the debate.
--
Marc Living (remove "bounceback" to reply)
"The first objective of any tyrant in Whitehall would be to make
Parliament utterly subservient to his will; and the next to overturn or
diminish trial by jury ..." Lord Devlin (http://www.holbornchambers.co.uk)
Taff
"Marc Living" <black...@ntlworld.BOUNCEBACK.com> wrote in message
news:s6m05u86djcut0dbj...@4ax.com...
It was a joke, please get a sense of humour you miserable git!! Or is
having a laugh banned on this NG now!
Lyn David Thomas
<rifl...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>No sir, I am not trolling, I believe what i was taught in School as a child
>and what my Welsh mother has told me over the years, Even on the History
>channel only a few weeks ago was the same statement made by an academic who
>is far better educated than I, He stated as I have been taught that the most
>Wales has been in recent history isd a principality, not a country, what
>happened on theses isles before King Arther and claims made upon those dates
>are just wishful fantasy.
Then the academic was plain wrong. We have a National Assembly, A
National Library and a National Museum - why do you think that is if
we are not a nation?
The law recognises that Wales is a nation, distinct from England - why
can't you?
>Claiming Wales as an independant country is really just romantic wishful
>thinging at best,
I don't claim that Wales is an independent country, it clearly isn't
politically independent of the UK. It is clearly a separate nation
though.
>Your dreams of an independant homeland for theWelsh is honourable and to be
>respected, but in this modern world which we all have to live in with its
>global market place Wales would be hard pushed to stand alone.
Who says I want Wales to stand alone in some sort of isolationism.
Independence in the modern world is not somthing that any country has.
We are all inderdependant. The only argument is at what level should
the Welsh people through their government be represented? As a part
of the UK or as a member state of the EU in its own right.
Stephen Kingston
Thomas" <l...@cibwr.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jan 2002 22:16:39 -0000, "Rifleman" <rifl...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
>
>> . . . He stated as I have been
>>taught that the most Wales has been in recent history isd a
>>principality, not a country, what happened on theses isles before King
>>Arther and claims made upon those dates are just wishful fantasy.
>
> Then the academic was plain wrong. We have a National Assembly, A
> National Library and a National Museum - why do you think that is if we
> are not a nation?
It seems to me that you are arguing at cross purposes here, but this is
not helped by "rifleman"'s equivocal and fallacious argument [see below].
Firstly, it is entirely possible to argue that the Welsh are a distinct
nation, whilst maintaining that the land of Wales is a principality and
not a country. To maintain this, we must give "country" a distinct and
unequivocal meaning, akin to state.
The difficulty here is that "country" is a loose term. To one person it
is synonymous with a state, whereas others will point to examples where
states and countries are not equivalent, and will talk about the nations
that occupy the land. The United States speak of themselves as "one
nation under God", and the land occupied by that union of states, but the
one nation, is their country.
Now this looseness of definition, as I said, makes for a loose and
equivocal argument. Thus:
Rifleman wrote:
>I dont know why, its as much a part of England as Northumbria for example,
>Wales has a regional identity much the same as yorkshire but its not an
>independant country and never has been,, its only ever been a principality
>at best. They must have rose tinted glasses on.
Now the equivocation is as follows:
Rifleman seems to assert the "independent country = independent state".
Thus he assumes here that country and state mean the same thing.
Next he asserts that Wales is a region of England, because it is not an
independent state, but his logic is in error, because he here assumes
that *England* *is* a country.
Now the state is the United Kingdom. Thus England is no more equivalent
to the state than Wales is, and has no more right to be called a country
under that line of reasoning.
He has equivocated in his definition of "country" and reduced the
argument to a nonsense, for Wales can no more be a region of England than
England can be a region of Wales.
Regards,
Stephen
Jack Sais
(in message <a2jbl7$ek4$1...@news0.ifb.net>):
So which "this NG" are you referring to? You crossposted to:
wales.politics.general, wales.politics.assembly, uk.politics.misc,
alt.politics.england.misc, alt.politics.british
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Jack Sais
(in message <b670f798.0201...@posting.google.com>):
> "Steve Smith" <steves...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:<a2ehuj$10q5m3$1...@ID-123292.news.dfncis.de>...
>>>>
>>
>> And what are you doing here in England taking one of our jobs. Sod off back
>> to Wales you hypocrite.
>
> I think you'll find we're probably better at it than you are old son.
> This is why most firms worth a toss in London are largely run by the
> Welsh, Irish and Scots.And of course we practically own the BBC now.
> We easily capable of not only running our own countries, but help you
> keep England off it's knee's also.
Well if you're running the damned show, it must be your fault that everyting
is run for the benefit of London/England/The South East (delete as
appropriate)
Or maybe you can't hold the logic together for long enough to see this...
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Blewyn
news:01HW.B88210510...@news.freeserve.net...
My mistake, I just replied to the thread without looking to see what groups
it was crossposted to.
Blewyn
Blewyn
>
>
> Blewyn <ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a2bvi1$q14$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
> > LONG POST
> >
> > "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > news:jL028.51105$_x4.7...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> A very long post that is about to be heavily snipped.
>
> > > They don't respect being forced either.
>
> > Rubbish - the English have much greater respect for a powerful,
determined
> > adversary than for a submissive ally. Witness the attention paid to
> Martin
> > McGuiness when he speaks - no 'bogtrotter' jokes for miles around.
>
> If what you claim is more of a reality rather than sentiment, I for one
will
> settle for the performance of the IWP at the next election, since they
> certainly do appear to me to be forcing the issue. Let's see what
transpires
> eh?
I'm sure you will, safe in the knowledge that their unwillingness to bomb
people combined with the inherent bias of the English media will ensure that
they are given little serious publicity.
> > The fact that most Welsh people currently simply follow the UK herd
> blindly
> > is not a counter to my argument about self-governance being more
> beneficial
> > for Wales. It just means that the idea needs to be thrust into the
public
> > consciousness in a much more mature and determined fashion than has
> > previously been the case. Not an easy task, considering that the
English
> > media is poised at all times to ridicule and tarnish the image of
> > well-meaning individuals like GabI, while giving ZERO positive coverage
to
> > the pro-Welsh radicals.
>
> To accuse the majority of being like blind herds following the UK trend is
> an arrogant assumption of a minority view. You may well have ignored that
> their voting pattern is based on what they the majority consider as voting
> for what they believe, hence contrary to your view. Another point you may
> well have missed or deliberately ignored is that the view of anti-English
> figures like GabI have been universally condemned by all the media, not
just
> the English derived.
You missed the half-page article in the Sunday Times that supported his
assertion that the people moving in to Wales are an economic drain ? How
convenient.
> > The clear view of the majority is that they have no view. The argument
> for
> > self-governance is dominated by negative presumption on the part of
those
> > who simply haven't given the idea any thought.
>
> More arrogance it seems. Your Halo is in need of a slight polish. No, not
> there, left a bit, yup that's it.
No arrogance - a simple truth. You just deny it because it happens to give
you the result you want.
> > > This applies to any small store, regardless of the geography.
>
> > It does, like I've already said further down the post, and like I've
> already
> > said, that's doesn't alter the fact that this has happened throughout
> Wales.
> > As I keep saying, what happens in England is not really at issue here.
>
> It simply points to the fact that Wales is no different and can hardly be
> presented as a hardship example
Again you miss the point. No-one's comparing Wales as an example of any
kind to any other area. I don't care what happens outside Wales. That Tyne
& Wear suffers economically doesn't mean that Welsh people shouldn't seek to
improve their lot.
> > People cannot be expected to act in unison unless there is someone to
lead
> > them. It is the government's job to do this. In the case above, the
> > government has clearly disregarded the interests of the people of Wales
in
> > favour of those of Mr Sainsbury and his ilk, and in favour of London.
>
> Well Mr Sainsbury, Mr Tesco and Mr Safeway employ a large number of Welsh
> people in Wales. Stop moaning like a spoilt child. Perhaps these
> organisations should be taken out of Wales and perhaps this time round
> someone like yourself will show some conviction and set up an equivallent?
Indeed ! That is precisely what should happen. Remove the rich foreign
competition and indigenous business will flourish. Every other European
country adopts this practice to one degree or another - why shouldn't Wales
?
> > How many times do I have to repeat this - what happens is the
> responsibility
> > of those in control.
>
> What happens is consequential of who and how many provide support, i.e the
> custom. They are the Welsh people and it's time for you to accept this.
The Welsh people have NEVER voted for a Tory government - yet the last Tory
parliament lasted 18 years. What happens is NOT the consequence of Welsh
political will.
> > > If it's to remain beyond the concern of this NG, I would therefore
> suggest
> > > to you that you cease to make comparisons with England.
>
> > Any comparison I have drawn is specifically in reference to the fact
that
> > Wales is governed, to all practical intents and purposes, by England.
>
> So there is clearly much relevance. Let's have an element of consistency.
There is relevance in that it is fair to point out what could be improved if
the Welsh ran their own affairs. It is not relevant to point out that some
parts of England suffer many of the same problems that Wales does. If
England has high unemployment, does that mean Welsh people shouldn't expect
to have jobs ?
> > > Share dividents are a multi-million pound industry. I note that you
say
> > > nothing of the thousands of Welsh people that are employed by these
lare
> > > Corporations? Of course this has no relevance whatsoever does it?
>
> > You really do need to study some economics.
>
> Er??? I'm a Welshman, living, working and employing Welsh people in Wales
> Blewyn. I did'nt turn my back on it and went for the easier option of
> working for someone else across the border. Believe me, I've a sound
> knowledge of economics with a business CV of almost 20 years to prove it
and
> stretching right through the last recession. Many others have done
likewise
> and yet have to listen to your patronising naive rants.
So how come you don't understand that centralisation of profit in the hands
of business owners in this country will always result in wealth being
transferred from Wales to SE England ?
> > As for your point about dividends - yes, shares are available to all,
but
> > what proportion of the low-wage low-wealth Welsh population do you think
> > benefot from dividends, compared to the population of England ?
>
> Less, because we have less people living in Wales.
Read the question again, this time pay attention to the word "proportion".
> > If all the dividends generated by services and products bought in Wales
> and
> > England were added up, and the relative proportions calculated according
> to
> > the relative proportion of maney spent - do you think it would show a
net
> > flow of money out of Wales, or into Wales ?
>
> Into Wales and also into England. I think you could have asked that
question
> a little different if you intended to receive a certain reply. Dividends
are
> not a result of products bought, They are the direct result of Company
> performance related shares bought.
They are an indication (supposedly) of company profits.
> > I don't want to make it compulsory - although in some areas it already
is
> > and should continue to be - I want to bring it into the centre of the
> Welsh
> > consciousness and make people realise that the English can never be
relied
> > upon to share prosperity. we have to play to our own strengths, like
the
> > Scots do and like the Irish do.
>
> If you want to bring it to the centre of the Welsh consciousness and be
> taken seriously, you need to be here in Wales and not in the East Anglia.
> You can cry foul again if you wish,
Indeed I could probably do more in Wales - but the least I can do from here
is post on this NG !
> > You have an extremely naive view of business and competition.
>
> I must have a very naive view of business Blewyn. In business for almost
20
> years. Have you run your "OWN" business? Until then you will also know
very
> little about competition. I don't think your qualified to be honest
Blewyn.
What a load of egotistical bollocks. Many people who don't own their own
businesses perform many of the functions of an owner-manager, and many such
people will be - as I am - operating in highly competitive markets. Simply
having run your own business doesn't instantly raise the validity of your
opinion over that of others - it still has to be well-reasoned and logical,
facets which are consistently absent from your knee-jerk rants.
> You often waffle in areas you know very little about. Managing for someone
> else is one thing. Running your own is quite a different kettle of fish,
> especially in a geographic location you could'nt even get off the ground.
No, it's not. You clearly have no imagination outside your own experience.
> > > Not an achievement gained whilst your competitors are handicapped.
>
> > Losing competitors are always 'handicapped', in comparison to the
winners.
> > I can't enter the airline business because I don't have enough money to
> buy
> > planes. Am I 'handicapped', in comparison to Freddie Laker ? Besides -
> are
> > you in favour of economic advancement for Wales or not ?
>
> Losing competitors become handicapped to the superior performance of the
> other. It's not a condition from the onset.
No - they're handicapped because of the larger capital of the other.
>This is what you want to create,
> when you insist that the Welsh language becomes a necessity in Welsh
> commerce, contrary to the current situation. I am in favour of economic
> advancement in Wales and I'm also in favour of people using a little more
> initiative, instead of waiting for governments to create an artificial
> environment for them and holding their hand or in the environment you
would
> like to see implemented, i.e handcuffing the non-Welsh speaker.
Er...just like the non-English speaker is 'handcuffed' at present ?
> > Unfair ? We're talking about business here ? What's this 'fairness'
> nonsense
> > you keep banging on about ? Do you want to compete more effectively
> against
> > the English or not ?
>
> I'm competing against the English and the Welsh right now. I don't need to
> disadvantage the competition. If anyone needs to do that, it's best that
> they remain working for someone else, instead of being permanently molley
> coddled in a false environment.
Me, me, me. I've done this, I've done that. What has your situation to do
with the clearly different situation of the majority of the people of Wales
? You seem to wallow in a self-righteous glow of contempt for anyone who
doesn't seem able or willing to compete commercially. Are you not aware
that established interests have an unfair advantage, not to mention the fact
that most Welsh people have little capital of their own ?
Besides, what has the competitive behaviour of foreigners to do with the
Welsh ? Wales should be run for the Welsh, not according to some
self-obsessed businessman's macho stance over competing with England..
> > > It's already established Blewyn. Nurses from the Phillipines are
already
> > > here, filling a void in the NHS
> >
> > Brought over specifically because not enough nurses could be recruited
> > locally (see it's cheaper than taking the steps necessary to make UK
> people
> > want to be nurses). Now answer the question properly.
>
> I've answered the question
No, you haven't. The nurses have been brought over by specific request by
the government, because their jobs are so bad that no British person is
willing to do it.
The question was - "do you believe that any foreigner should be allowed to
compete for any UK job" ?
> > > You'll never force them Blewyn!
>
> > No - but I might persuade them that forcing their children will make
their
> > children richer when they grow up..and I might make them understand that
> > they will be more marketable in the job market if they learn it..
>
> Richer? What a load of twaddle. But if you think you can persuade them,
> perhaps you need to consider coming home to do that? If that's too much of
a
> sacrifice for you, then you'll surely understand if people don't listen to
> you?
Plenty at home agree with me already, just fanning the fire..
> > NO, IT DOESN'T. Would you go to Germany and insist that all business
> should
> > take place in the dominant EU language, in order to remove 'unfair'
> > competition ?
>
> This is an awful analogy. You still don't accept that in Germany, they
speak
> German. In France it's French and likewise in the Netherlands. In Wales
it's
> English. That is the main Commercial language. Now that is fact. This is
> what you want to change.
Of course. Then Welsh people would have a commercial advantage over
incomers. I see nothing wrong with that.
> > > Whoe are these "We" you are making reference to? The minority? The
> > majority?
> > > The existing indeginous Welsh speakers living in Wales? or the
existing
> > > Welsh indeginous non-Welsh speakers living in Wales? or even the
> ex-Pats?
> > > Who are the "we's" Blewyn?
> >
> > We - the Welsh people. Don't even think of carrying this line any
further
> > 'cos i'll just snip it.
> > > Exactly! How do you propose that they see any advantage? Are you to
tell
> > > them that they can continue to have what they already have, provided
> that
> > > they learn? or are you proposing something extra for them as an
> incentive?
>
> > Aha - the crux of the matter..I'll bet you think anything other than
> > something extra is 'unfair', don't you ? Well sometimes life just ain't
> > fair. I'm not here to be fair - I'm here to propose ideas to improve
the
> > propserity of Wales, and arrest the plebeian cultural and media
onslaught
> > from England and America.
>
> I'm being realistic and totally ignoring the value of sentiment on this
> issue. You need to have the support of the Welsh voter to achieve what you
> wish and yet you appear to concede that what you would like to see
> implemented offers them nothing in return. Time to wake up to reality
Blewyn
What I proposed offers them an immediate economic boost simply from the fact
that wealth will again begin to recirculate in Wales, rather than leaking
out. In the longer term, what I propose offers their children a stable and
separate nation that can weather economic storms on its own, without having
to suffer the indifference of a media-obsessed London government.
> > I want the Welsh people to realise that by taking back their control
over
> > local jobs and sales to local people, they can begin to fight back
against
> > UK national (ie English) business domination and ownership.
>
> Wales never had control of the scale of today's commerce. What they had
> control was nowhere near to today's growth and scale. Stop dreaming man.
You keep saying 'stop dreaming', what are you afraid of ?
> > The fact that my skills do not currently find use in Wales doesn't mean
> that
> > you couldn't set up a company doing what mine does in Wales. In fact,
it
> > means the opposite.
>
> Ah, so you want Wales to put some oil rigs in place for you?
What do you mean ?
> > > majority are doing and that's fully utilising a language that you feel
> > > dominates too much. How you move on from here to implement what I
> suspect
> > > does'nt really bother you quite enough is entirely up to you.
>
> > I live and work in England with very little Welsh contact. What can I
do
> ?
> > If but one person is swayed by reading my arguments here, then it's all
> > worthwhile. Besides, Llion/Nigel/RH et al put so much anti-Welsh drivel
> on
> > here, they simply cannot be left unopposed.
>
> I don't see what they's written to be drivel, nor do I see what they say
as
> anti-Welsh. I see them as being more Welsh than you. They are in wales and
> supprting the Welsh economy. You make no such contribution.
They are in Wales profiting from the Welsh economy, yet consistently argue
that the language should not be supported and consistently argue against any
degree of self-government for the Welsh people. That tells me all I need to
know about the motives behind their reactionary drivel.
Haven't you noticed that all these people only ever post criticisms, never
ideas of their own ? The most they offer is a continuation of the status
quo.
> > Maybe not entirely futile, but probably ineffectual in persuading the
> > mainstream Welsh population to think further than voting Lab/Con and
> hoping
> > for the best again..
>
> Best of luck to you. I would imagine Labour masturbating at the moment
with
> the way Plaid have been split right down the middle with the recent
> defections. How ironic it's all turned out. The once united Nationalists
> have now been split into two, Plaid and the fundamental radicals - IWP.
It is ironic and sad, and entirely the fault of the Plaid leadership that
they allowed the pro-Labour media to prise them apart so easily. On the
other hand, the IWP are a new, harder voice in politics (albeit currently in
infancy) more reminiscent of the SNP than Plaid - and the SNP are held in
much higher regard than Plaid ever were.
> > But what if the aim is to change the environment, for one's own benefit
?
>
> Any idiot would presume that to be the motive anyway.
And that is entirely right and proper. The English have run the UK for
their own benefit for centuries.
> > > You are deliberately missing the point here. Show me examples whereby
> the
> > > Welsh skill as you put it is an absolute essential skill for Wales to
> > > operate it's daily functions?
>
> > It is essential for bank staff to speak Welsh in order to get my
business.
> > Small example I know, but it's a start. The point of my argument is to
> work
> > to increase the market influence of Welsh. As a country, we can all
only
> > benefit from it, both culturally and financially.
>
> A pathetic example. If all Banks ignored your call, what would you do?
Harly
> essential and that's all you can come up with.?My goodness we have an
> urgency for drastic changes to make Welsh mandatory, right across the
board!
You missed the point again. Going by your logic, speaking English is no
more essential than speaking Welsh, and we might as well all start speaking
German so we can all be identical EU citizens. I'm not interested in
efficiency on a UK-wide or even global perspective - I'm interested in the
idea that Welsh people should aggressively market their culture and language
as a commercial tool with which to beat the competition for jobs and
contracts. Remember - we can all speak their language, and get their jobs
and contracts..
> > I never said it was a necessity in all current situations. You're
asking
> > the same question twice here, and I've already answered it above. Wales
> can
> > indeed get by without Welsh - but is 'getting by' all Welsh people want
?
> > What about securing some of that government administration spending,
> setting
> > up a financial centre in Cardiff, increasing the volume of Welsh media
(in
> > both languages), increasing the local job market power of Welsh people,
> > securing MUCH more American/English/Australian tourist dollars ? The
list
> > goes on and on...
>
> I've asked you to present examples whereby Welsh is "essential". You have
> failed to do this.
The desire to use Welsh as a commercial tool doesn't have to be morally
justified on the basis of functional requirement to you or anyone else.
That's exactly what I'm proposing ! Just like every other country in the
EU, we should protect our own home markets from foreigners - how do the
Welsh people possibly benefit by making it easier for non-Welsh speakers to
compete ?
> > > Did'nt say the contrary. You moan that Jack Sais buys what you left
> behind
> > > and readilly admit that the ex-pat settles somewhere else
>
> > If there are no jobs in an area people will emigrate. If a rich person
> > wants a holiday home, then a local person will be priced out of the
area.
> > We should work to reverse this trend, no ?
>
> The only trend you need to reverse is the prosperity of the region and
that
> means jobs. Tell me how stopping Jack Sais's Welsh settlement achieves an
> increase in availability of jobs. what you would end up with is a "Welsh
> Only" Ghetto, unless the Welsh themselves initiate something to contradict
> this no prosperity situation. You're in a dream World Blewyn.
Simple. JS the holiday home owner actually reduces local trade because the
house goes unoccupied for much of the year, and because he tends to stock up
in England before coming to Wales for the weekend. JS the incomer - as was
pointed out by an English columnist in the Sunday Times, in more
media-friendly terms than GabI - tends to be a benefit claimant, 'artist' or
retiree, ie non-wealth-generating individuals after an easy ride in the
country.
> > > Well now we have a situation whereby you are demanding that the Jack
> Sais
> > > settler should also indirectly be your employer subsidiser. Shy should
> > they?
>
> > Because they can stop once they can demonstrate a good conversational
> level
> > of Welsh, and then they will no longer be directly responsible for
> > destroying the language.
>
> I see, so now we are going back to the similar concept adopted by Seimon
> Glyn on the Radio wales Interview which can only be interpreted as
> "Intergrate and you will not receive a financial penalty" or "Do as we do
> and you'll be ok" I can see it becoming policy Blewyn. Can I bollocks.
What your limited imagination can allow you to see is hardly relevant to
what could actually be done.
> > > Would you agree with the IWP proposal, i.e "While proposals cannot be
> > > retrospective, holiday homes owned by in-comers with no family links
to
> Y
> > > Fro Gymraeg will pay five times the standard rate of Council Tax"....
>
> > Absolutely - that goes for any part of the UK, in my opinion.
>
> Wonderful. I've no doubt that the voters will show their disgust at the
> ballot box.
Disgust ? Getting a bit emotional are we ? Why 'disgust' JD ?
> > > £5,000 per anum Blewyn and £5000 per anum for Jack Sais? Is'nt this
more
> > of
> > > an admission that some people simply have no get-up and go and are
> simply
> > > down right passive, lazy, bone idle and incapable of initiative? And
the
> > > Welsh indeginous in these areas pay 1/5th of Jack's total. What a
> > wonderful
> > > initiative! What a convenient initiative for that matter! More
> > importantly,
> > > what a vote deterrent!
>
> > You're not making any sense - why is this vote deterrent.
>
> Because the proposal will only achieve the support of the radical
> anti-English voter. There are'nt enough of you. Makes plenty of sense to
me.
Yeah right - so you think that Welsh people wouldn't jump at the chance to
make it more difficult for the English to come in and take their houses and
jobs..
> >But you think they should work hard,
> > even though all their lives they have seen people around them work hard
> and
> > get nothing for it.
>
> Are you suggesting some remain lazy? that's what it looks like
I'm suggesting a different tactic is required, so that hard work can be seen
to be rewarded.
> > So you want to remove any advantage Wales may have over England, just to
> > make sure that these 'lazy moaners' don't get a head-start.
>
> No lazy moaner should have any head start, regardless of where they are.
> Again, are you suggesting otherwise? Again, it appears so.
Not at all - I believe everyone should start a race at the same level.
Unfortunately, the average Welsh person starts in a working-class home with
no capital and no tradition of ownership or management, and no leadership.
Those in the UK who actually do own business (notwithstanding honourable
exceptions such as yourself, of course)usually start at a very different
point indeed. I have no qualms about giving the Welsh people a commercial
advantage over all others. The Americans are perfectly clear in their
intentions, always placing their own interests ahead of all others. I see
no reason why the Welsh shouldn't be the same.
> > Never mind the
> > fact that English competitve companies are always going to be better
> funded
> > and that many markets are already captured by them.
>
> Oh, what a hardship. Time to catch up then is'nt it Blewyn. Na, we can't
> have that can we, we want to go straight to the premier league and the
only
> way to achieve this is to handcuff the competition. pathetic!
What's pathetic about it ? Or do you think the Welsh people haven't the
right to take what's theirs ? I say these foreign companies have been
guests in our economy for long enough..
> > The truth about you, JD, is that you'd rather see your countrymen suffer
> > than prosper, because you feel it's unfair that you work so hard and
some
> of
> > them don't.
>
> No Blewyn, the truth about me is that I love Wales enough to be here. I
love
> wales enough to do as many others do and employ Welsh people. I suppose
I'm
> making them really suffer are'nt I. Perhaps I should stop employing Welsh
> people, do what you have done and try to find a better financial offer in
> England? The truth about me, my arse! Look at yourself Blewyn!
So why don't you want more Welsh people to prosper ?
> > As
> > > for looking at home. I'm in Wales, making a living in Wales and
> employing
> > > "WELSH" people.
>
> > I said 'look to home' as in 'sbia adra', ie. analyse your own behaviour
> > before you criticise others. You're not exactly a fount of reason, JD.
>
> That's what I'm doing and it appears clear to me that I'm making more of a
> contribution than you, the person that thinks that he's cast from the
> ultimate Welsh mould. There's some real truths for you to ponder at
You keep harping on about your massive contribution - has it occurred to you
that if you weren't doing what you are, then someone else would ? Do you
really employ that many people ? Do you pay them the same as their English
equivalents ?
Has any of the above got anything to do with taking steps to promote the
interests of the Welsh people ?
> > > Not once have you acknowledged that these people should be
> > > realistic, recognise their geographical spot and accept that
prosperity
> > and
> > > back of certain beyonds simply will not mix.
>
> > A loser's mentality. Shame on you. You want to deny any chance to the
> > Welsh people because you haven't the guts to consider standing up to the
> > English establishment.
>
> You have the naivety to believe that geographic location has no bearing on
> prosperity. I heard Bill Gates is moving his entire empire over to
> Llanaelhaearn
If Mohammed won't go to the mountain....who do you think controls economic
migration, through roadbuilding and market management ? The same people who
think that the Olympic Stadium should be in London simply because it's our
capital city, and had the right to all UK wealth.
> > Jack Sais make it comfortable !? I never said any such thing ! Screw
what
> > Jack Sais wants or doesn't want - I say the Welsh people should
recognise
> > what's good for them and TAKE it.
>
> How you can say Screw the English and not expect criticism is beyond me.
I didn't say "Screw The English", I said "Screw what Jack Sais wants or
doesn't want". Big difference. Maybe you should read less of the Sun and
more of the Economist, JD.
Blewyn
Daniels@virgin.net Jimmy Daniels
>
> "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:YJb38.1323$Ph2.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> will
> > settle for the performance of the IWP at the next election, since they
> > certainly do appear to me to be forcing the issue. Let's see what
> transpires
> > eh?
> I'm sure you will, safe in the knowledge that their unwillingness to bomb
> people combined with the inherent bias of the English media will ensure
that
> they are given little serious publicity.
Burning holiday cottages, who knows? Who mentioned bombs? They don't have
the technology do they? As for the English media, all you highlight as far
as I'm concerned is the total absence of the Welsh equivallent that could
perhaps sustain an element of equilibrium to contradict what you suggest the
English media are guilty of.
> > To accuse the majority of being like blind herds following the UK trend
is
> > an arrogant assumption of a minority view. You may well have ignored
that
> > their voting pattern is based on what they the majority consider as
voting
> > for what they believe, hence contrary to your view. Another point you
may
> > well have missed or deliberately ignored is that the view of
anti-English
> > figures like GabI have been universally condemned by all the media, not
> just
> > the English derived.
> You missed the half-page article in the Sunday Times that supported his
> assertion that the people moving in to Wales are an economic drain ? How
> convenient.
I missed the whole of the Times and totally dismiss any claim you do or
anyone else for that matter that long serving English PAYE contributors are
a drain on the Welsh economy.
> Again you miss the point. No-one's comparing Wales as an example of any
> kind to any other area. I don't care what happens outside Wales. That
Tyne
> & Wear suffers economically doesn't mean that Welsh people shouldn't seek
to
> improve their lot.
Not missing any point. Without any comparison whatsoever, you can not gauge
any hardships.
> > Well Mr Sainsbury, Mr Tesco and Mr Safeway employ a large number of
Welsh
> > people in Wales. Stop moaning like a spoilt child. Perhaps these
> > organisations should be taken out of Wales and perhaps this time round
> > someone like yourself will show some conviction and set up an
equivallent?
> Indeed ! That is precisely what should happen. Remove the rich foreign
> competition and indigenous business will flourish.
You can only remove the competition by competing against them. this is what
you and others are not prepared to do. All you can come up with is to
blindly remove the competition and just assume that the market will thencome
to you. Missed the boat? Then catch up! and stop showing your sheer envy
towards those that took the initiative whilst you and your kind simply sat
on your arse watching the World go by.
> Every other European
> country adopts this practice to one degree or another - why shouldn't
Wales
> ?
Europe is open for business and competition is wide open and unrestricted.
You want the competition removed, so you can survive on as minimal an effort
as possible.
> > What happens is consequential of who and how many provide support, i.e
the
> > custom. They are the Welsh people and it's time for you to accept this.
> The Welsh people have NEVER voted for a Tory government - yet the last
Tory
> parliament lasted 18 years. What happens is NOT the consequence of Welsh
> political will.
Moving goal posts and totally changing direction! The Welsh people support
these large Companies do they not? The Tories are incidental to their
existence and any other political party for that matter. We are still on the
same subject are'nt we?
> There is relevance in that it is fair to point out what could be improved
if
> the Welsh ran their own affairs. It is not relevant to point out that
some
> parts of England suffer many of the same problems that Wales does. If
> England has high unemployment, does that mean Welsh people shouldn't
expect
> to have jobs ?
No, but can not in that particular instance present examples of hardships
like you do from time to time that some English parts are flourishing whilst
Wales suffers. Can't have it both ways here Blewyn.
> > Er??? I'm a Welshman, living, working and employing Welsh people in
Wales
> > Blewyn. I did'nt turn my back on it and went for the easier option of
> > working for someone else across the border. Believe me, I've a sound
> > knowledge of economics with a business CV of almost 20 years to prove it
> and
> > stretching right through the last recession. Many others have done
> likewise
> > and yet have to listen to your patronising naive rants.
> So how come you don't understand that centralisation of profit in the
hands
> of business owners in this country will always result in wealth being
> transferred from Wales to SE England ?
It does'nt and that's the whole naivety on your part. These large companies
employ Welsh people. Not once have you acknowledged this. I do believe that
your naiveness would stretch to the extent that if these large Companies
were to register with Companies House in Cardiff instead of London, you'd
believe that Wales would be better off. More relevance for prosperity would
be biased towards the people directly working for their salaries than the HQ
of the relevant Company.
> > Into Wales and also into England. I think you could have asked that
> question
> > a little different if you intended to receive a certain reply. Dividends
> are
> > not a result of products bought, They are the direct result of Company
> > performance related shares bought.
>
> They are an indication (supposedly) of company profits.
I've just said that in more detail.
> > If you want to bring it to the centre of the Welsh consciousness and be
> > taken seriously, you need to be here in Wales and not in the East
Anglia.
> > You can cry foul again if you wish,
> Indeed I could probably do more in Wales - but the least I can do from
here
> is post on this NG !
Shame that will have an insignificant effect on the constitution.
> > > You have an extremely naive view of business and competition.
> >
> > I must have a very naive view of business Blewyn. In business for almost
> 20
> > years. Have you run your "OWN" business? Until then you will also know
> very
> > little about competition. I don't think your qualified to be honest
> Blewyn.
> What a load of egotistical bollocks. Many people who don't own their own
> businesses perform many of the functions of an owner-manager, and many
such
> people will be - as I am - operating in highly competitive markets.
I've managed elsewhere for several years before this career. Managing
someone elses business is a piece of cake compared to managing your own.
Accountability of the non-owner manager is limited to the job description
and void of the responsibility of the ultimate survival of that enterprise.
Don't sit there telling me they are the same.
> Simply
> having run your own business doesn't instantly raise the validity of your
> opinion over that of others - it still has to be well-reasoned and
logical,
> facets which are consistently absent from your knee-jerk rants.
Not ranting in the least. You're losing your rag because you're questioned
on your much limited commercial knowledge. Running your own does raise the
validity of the argument and is not for you to question if that business has
survived some considerable time and is successful. You have yet to do what
many have and yet you are trully a man for all Seasons and subjects.
Basically, you're becoming very frustrated yet again.
> > You often waffle in areas you know very little about. Managing for
someone
> > else is one thing. Running your own is quite a different kettle of fish,
> > especially in a geographic location you could'nt even get off the
ground.
> No, it's not. You clearly have no imagination outside your own
experience.
The absence of immagination is exactly what it takes to do what you have
done and left your Country for the English gravy train. The easy option.
Only tonight, Dafydd Iwan was criticising your kind on a special language
programme on S4C for running this Country into ruin. He suggested that the
ex-pats like yourself leave what you do, come back and put some effort into
it. I agreed with him on that point. The problem is that you are to selfish
to do that, despite your calls for the good of the Welsh cause. Lack the
ability and plenty to say. Words and words alone!
> > Losing competitors become handicapped to the superior performance of the
> > other. It's not a condition from the onset.
> No - they're handicapped because of the larger capital of the other.
Tough titty! There will always be someone else with access to more Capital
than you. Wake up to the real World.
> Er...just like the non-English speaker is 'handcuffed' at present ?
The non-English speaker could'nt communicate within the UK. The non-Welsh
speaker gets along just fine.
> > > Unfair ? We're talking about business here ? What's this 'fairness'
> > nonsense
> > > you keep banging on about ? Do you want to compete more effectively
> > against
> > > the English or not ?
> >
> > I'm competing against the English and the Welsh right now. I don't need
to
> > disadvantage the competition. If anyone needs to do that, it's best that
> > they remain working for someone else, instead of being permanently
molley
> > coddled in a false environment.
> Me, me, me. I've done this, I've done that.
You asked the question and I see what I previously expected when the answer
is given, SOUR GRAPES! Don't ask the question if the answer makes you pig
sick!
> What has your situation to do
> with the clearly different situation of the majority of the people of
Wales
You asked me a few questions and I answered. I never implied that my
scenario is the be all and end all. All I have indicated much earlier on is
that more Welsh people could get off their butts and have a go.
Unfortunately that's a trait not genetically shared by a few I could
mention, yourself included.
> ? You seem to wallow in a self-righteous glow of contempt for anyone who
> doesn't seem able or willing to compete commercially. Are you not aware
> that established interests have an unfair advantage, not to mention the
fact
> that most Welsh people have little capital of their own ?
Again, you've asked me a few questions which I've answered you. You appear
disturbed by the same replies. I've said to you that I had no advantages
over say, what you had when you were here in Wales and ready for work. You
mention able and also mention willing. Not willing to compete commercially
is something I have no sympathy for. Hardly contempt. Little Capital is not
ample reason to suggest the commercial unviablity of the potential business
person and I would dismiss that as a valid excuse as an inability.
> Besides, what has the competitive behaviour of foreigners to do with the
> Welsh ?
I don't believe I'm reading this. You keep ranting on about the advantages
that the foreign competition have time and time again over the Welsh
>Wales should be run for the Welsh, not according to some
> self-obsessed businessman's macho stance over competing with England..
Still blantantly sour? You stay as an employee matey! Suits you better. If
you did create your own business, watch out for some people that will
dislike you for it. Clearly it comes with the territory. You have been
warned. "Llwyddiant" is not welcome amongst the narrow minded. Your kind
feel more comfortable and secure in the company of the "dim Llwyddiant".
Many Welsh business people I speak to say exactly the same thing including a
succesful Caernarfon Insurance Broker that I don't doubt for one minute that
you would know and Garage owners on Anglesey and Llanwnda. All you can do
is knock because you just could'nt be arsed to try yourself. Sad!
> > I've answered the question
>
> No, you haven't. The nurses have been brought over by specific request by
> the government, because their jobs are so bad that no British person is
> willing to do it.
The question has been answered. They are here, regardless of the reason.
> The question was - "do you believe that any foreigner should be allowed to
> compete for any UK job" ?
Yes! They already do. I can compete with any Company in Europe if I could be
bothered to set base in another European Country. It's open for business.
Gwynedd Shipping (amongst many others) near Caernarfon are doing just that
right now. Mansel Davies fron West Wales is another example. Hundreds of
Welsh business divulge in this activity. Wake up!
> > Richer? What a load of twaddle. But if you think you can persuade them,
> > perhaps you need to consider coming home to do that? If that's too much
of
> a
> > sacrifice for you, then you'll surely understand if people don't listen
to
> > you?
> Plenty at home agree with me already, just fanning the fire..
Then it's no surprise that this "plenty" just does'nt amount to enough does
it? Judging from actual experience, language and prosperity share no
commonality.
> > This is an awful analogy. You still don't accept that in Germany, they
> speak
> > German. In France it's French and likewise in the Netherlands. In Wales
> it's
> > English. That is the main Commercial language. Now that is fact. This is
> > what you want to change.
> Of course. Then Welsh people would have a commercial advantage over
> incomers. I see nothing wrong with that.
You're a dreamer. Welsh people are managing now. If it takes a linguistic
barrier to achieve this success of yours, do you seriously think that this
so-called vital criteria is all that's stopping them becoming prosperous? If
they depend on that Blewyn, I'm afraid they just don't have the heart nor
the will.
> > I'm being realistic and totally ignoring the value of sentiment on this
> > issue. You need to have the support of the Welsh voter to achieve what
you
> > wish and yet you appear to concede that what you would like to see
> > implemented offers them nothing in return. Time to wake up to reality
> Blewyn
> What I proposed offers them an immediate economic boost simply from the
fact
> that wealth will again begin to recirculate in Wales,
But this is not fact though? It's merely your dream and one without
conviction from yourself. welsh people are'nt bothered about buying "only"
in Wales. I know of many people including Nationalists like I've said
before, that go across the border to do their big shopping sprees. You've
set yourself an impossible mountain to climb and far from reality.
> rather than leaking
> out. In the longer term, what I propose offers their children a stable
and
> separate nation that can weather economic storms on its own, without
having
> to suffer the indifference of a media-obsessed London government.
Yes yes yes and these are the figures to support your claim £ blank! You
keep making these outrageous claims and when questioned all you can come up
with is "Dissprove Me"
> > Wales never had control of the scale of today's commerce. What they had
> > control was nowhere near to today's growth and scale. Stop dreaming man.
>
> You keep saying 'stop dreaming', what are you afraid of ?
Certainly not afraid of running a business in Wales am I? You are! Like I
said earlier, Wales never had control of these large Corporations.
> > Ah, so you want Wales to put some oil rigs in place for you?
>
> What do you mean ?
You mean, you have another practical Welsh purpose?
> > I don't see what they's written to be drivel, nor do I see what they say
> as
> > anti-Welsh. I see them as being more Welsh than you. They are in wales
and
> > supprting the Welsh economy. You make no such contribution.
> They are in Wales profiting from the Welsh economy, yet consistently argue
> that the language should not be supported and consistently argue against
any
> degree of self-government for the Welsh people. That tells me all I need
to
> know about the motives behind their reactionary drivel.
Now lets get a couple of commercial facts straight here. They are profiting
from the welsh economy you say. Why did'nt you include that they may well be
employing Welsh people. They are in Wales and anyone that is in Wales and
employed are doing more than you. Glass houses spring to mind!
> Haven't you noticed that all these people only ever post criticisms, never
> ideas of their own ? The most they offer is a continuation of the status
> quo.
I think that you've had suggestios in the past by many of these posters.
I've given you examples of what the Welsh possibly could do. The problem is
that you take none of it on board. You just won't have it. Simple as that.
> > Best of luck to you. I would imagine Labour masturbating at the moment
> with
> > the way Plaid have been split right down the middle with the recent
> > defections. How ironic it's all turned out. The once united Nationalists
> > have now been split into two, Plaid and the fundamental radicals - IWP.
> It is ironic and sad, and entirely the fault of the Plaid leadership that
> they allowed the pro-Labour media to prise them apart so easily. On the
> other hand, the IWP are a new, harder voice in politics (albeit currently
in
> infancy) more reminiscent of the SNP than Plaid - and the SNP are held in
> much higher regard than Plaid ever were.
Do you expect anything different with so little strength. Glad you said that
it takes one Party to take them appart. then they were too weak then were'nt
they? Besides they were taken appart by the massive division within their
own ranks. It all started the day Simon Glyn walked into a Cardiff Studio
some time ago. that's what created the cracks that created the current
division. IWP? A friggin joke!
> > Any idiot would presume that to be the motive anyway.
> And that is entirely right and proper. The English have run the UK for
> their own benefit for centuries.
And allowing for free competition beyond your own back yard, you're left
with? what the English have done and the Welsh and the Scots and the Irish,
an open market. same as that non-Welsh gas transporting Company you are
working for Blewyn. Should they be removed from Wales? If so, are your
bosses aware of your views? Consistency please!
> You missed the point again. Going by your logic, speaking English is no
> more essential than speaking Welsh, and we might as well all start
speaking
> German so we can all be identical EU citizens.
English is more essential in Wales though. That goes without saying
>Remember - we can all speak their language, and get their jobs
> and contracts..
I know, we're doing it. What a shame that you feel that the only way you
could compete in Wales is by introducing a communication medium with them
that they can not understand.
> > I've asked you to present examples whereby Welsh is "essential". You
have
> > failed to do this.
> The desire to use Welsh as a commercial tool doesn't have to be morally
> justified on the basis of functional requirement to you or anyone else.
That's an adequate answer to me. I said it was not essential in Welsh
commerce and it clearly remains so. Neither does anyone have to justify to
you or anyone else why the language is widely ignored in the commercial
sector.
> > What you are suggesting is no more than eliminating the competition by
> using
> > a form of communication beyond the reach of the non-Welsh speaker. No
> matter
> > how you dress this one up, this is what you are suggesting. Language has
> > absolutely f*** all to do with prosperity and anyone who thinks
otherwise
> is
> > in cuckoo land.
> That's exactly what I'm proposing ! Just like every other country in the
> EU, we should protect our own home markets from foreigners - how do the
> Welsh people possibly benefit by making it easier for non-Welsh speakers
to
> compete ?
A Language that is not essential does'nt bring prosperity, full stop!
> > The only trend you need to reverse is the prosperity of the region and
> that
> > means jobs. Tell me how stopping Jack Sais's Welsh settlement achieves
an
> > increase in availability of jobs. what you would end up with is a "Welsh
> > Only" Ghetto, unless the Welsh themselves initiate something to
contradict
> > this no prosperity situation. You're in a dream World Blewyn.
> Simple. JS the holiday home owner actually reduces local trade because
the
> house goes unoccupied for much of the year, and because he tends to stock
up
> in England before coming to Wales for the weekend.
Ah I see! So the definition of your Welsh commerce is limited to Autie
Gwen's local grocery? I thought all along that you had a wider perpective of
potential prosperity to these poor areas than a grocery store and a couple
of extra staff. So that's why these areas are suffering? Wow, you learn
something new every day!
> JS the incomer - as was
> pointed out by an English columnist in the Sunday Times, in more
> media-friendly terms than GabI - tends to be a benefit claimant, 'artist'
or
> retiree, ie non-wealth-generating individuals after an easy ride in the
> country.
So the English media are ok all of a sudden are they? Or did they just so
happen to say a particular thing that pleases you? What's wrong with an easy
ride in the Country? I hope that I'm off to an easy ride in the Carribean
when I retire.
> > I see, so now we are going back to the similar concept adopted by Seimon
> > Glyn on the Radio wales Interview which can only be interpreted as
> > "Intergrate and you will not receive a financial penalty" or "Do as we
do
> > and you'll be ok" I can see it becoming policy Blewyn. Can I bollocks.
> What your limited imagination can allow you to see is hardly relevant to
> what could actually be done.
Your limited vision is quite incredible! 80% of Welsh people will not
benefit from what you suggest. Not even the remaining 20% would see you eye
to eye. In a Television survey out today, even the indeginous Welsh speakers
to the tune of a massive 30% do not speak Welsh to their children and yet
you feel there's hope of converting the existing 80% of non-Welsh speakers
to think as you do?
> > > > Fro Gymraeg will pay five times the standard rate of Council
Tax"....
> >
> > > Absolutely - that goes for any part of the UK, in my opinion.
> >
> > Wonderful. I've no doubt that the voters will show their disgust at the
> > ballot box.
>
> Disgust ? Getting a bit emotional are we ? Why 'disgust' JD ?
The lack of impartiality to an already unbiased and non-prejudicial free
market. If the won't feel any disgust, then no doubt the IWP are on to a
winner? I'll bet for the contrary though.
> > Because the proposal will only achieve the support of the radical
> > anti-English voter. There are'nt enough of you. Makes plenty of sense to
> me.
> Yeah right - so you think that Welsh people wouldn't jump at the chance to
> make it more difficult for the English to come in and take their houses
and
> jobs..
Some of the Welsh will, just not in sufficient numbers to have any
significant impact.
> > >But you think they should work hard,
> > > even though all their lives they have seen people around them work
hard
> > and
> > > get nothing for it.
> > Are you suggesting some remain lazy? that's what it looks like
> I'm suggesting a different tactic is required, so that hard work can be
seen
> to be rewarded.
But you've implied that some people would be deterred from working harder
because others around them have failed? Losers mentality? I quote you
again -
"But you think they should work hard, even though all their lives they have
seen people around them work hard and get nothing for it".
> > > So you want to remove any advantage Wales may have over England, just
to
> > > make sure that these 'lazy moaners' don't get a head-start.
> > No lazy moaner should have any head start, regardless of where they are.
> > Again, are you suggesting otherwise? Again, it appears so.
> Not at all - I believe everyone should start a race at the same level.
> Unfortunately, the average Welsh person starts in a working-class home
with
> no capital and no tradition of ownership or management, and no leadership.
So do people outside Wales. So what?
> Those in the UK who actually do own business (notwithstanding honourable
> exceptions such as yourself, of course)usually start at a very different
> point indeed.
That's utter bollocks. I'm a million miles away from the exception. You're
making it sound as an impossibility. Nothing could be further from the
truth.
> I have no qualms about giving the Welsh people a commercial
> advantage over all others. The Americans are perfectly clear in their
> intentions, always placing their own interests ahead of all others. I see
> no reason why the Welsh shouldn't be the same.
Neither do I. A level start as you suggest sounds pretty idylic and is a far
cry from reality, no matter where you are.
> > Oh, what a hardship. Time to catch up then is'nt it Blewyn. Na, we can't
> > have that can we, we want to go straight to the premier league and the
> only
> > way to achieve this is to handcuff the competition. pathetic!
> What's pathetic about it ? Or do you think the Welsh people haven't the
> right to take what's theirs ? I say these foreign companies have been
> guests in our economy for long enough..
Thes foreign Companies have perhaps employed Welsh people for too long?
Perhaps it's time they moved out just to see if your kind take the
initiative the tenth time round? That's what's pathetic!
> > No Blewyn, the truth about me is that I love Wales enough to be here. I
> love
> > wales enough to do as many others do and employ Welsh people. I suppose
> I'm
> > making them really suffer are'nt I. Perhaps I should stop employing
Welsh
> > people, do what you have done and try to find a better financial offer
in
> > England? The truth about me, my arse! Look at yourself Blewyn!
> So why don't you want more Welsh people to prosper ?
I do, just don't agree with your fantasy rules to achieve prosperity. If you
want more Welsh people to prosper, I suggest you move here and take some
actual action. Many have and so have I. Should I really continue to take
anything you say on this issue with anything but a pinch of salt? Come on
Blewyn, just a smidge of conviction would account for some credibility to
your position.
> > > I said 'look to home' as in 'sbia adra', ie. analyse your own
behaviour
> > > before you criticise others. You're not exactly a fount of reason,
JD.
> >
> > That's what I'm doing and it appears clear to me that I'm making more of
a
> > contribution than you, the person that thinks that he's cast from the
> > ultimate Welsh mould. There's some real truths for you to ponder at
>
> You keep harping on about your massive contribution -
But you tell me to look at the home front. I'm doing that. You are'nt! Every
time you say such, I'll remind you time and time again. it's not going away.
You need a bigger axe.
> has it occurred to you
> that if you weren't doing what you are, then someone else would ?
Yes and I've stated so. Funny that there's still no serious competition
though.
>Do you
> really employ that many people ? Do you pay them the same as their English
> equivalents ?
Yes.
> Has any of the above got anything to do with taking steps to promote the
> interests of the Welsh people ?
The above what? If you mean employment then clearly there is an interest for
the benefit of Welsh people. Unless you can prove otherwise of course?
> > You have the naivety to believe that geographic location has no bearing
on
> > prosperity. I heard Bill Gates is moving his entire empire over to
> > Llanaelhaearn
> If Mohammed won't go to the mountain....who do you think controls economic
> migration, through roadbuilding and market management ? The same people
who
> think that the Olympic Stadium should be in London simply because it's our
> capital city, and had the right to all UK wealth.
You just lack the ability to grasp the basics and waffle on regardless. Very
weak indeed. You fail to acknowledge the relevance between geographical
location and prosperity or the lack of it
> > How you can say Screw the English and not expect criticism is beyond me.
>
> I didn't say "Screw The English", I said "Screw what Jack Sais wants or
> doesn't want". Big difference.
Jack Sais is the equivallent of Jack English. NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER!
> Maybe you should read less of the Sun and
> more of the Economist, JD.
If I read the Sun and needed the assistance of the Economist, no doubt that
I would be in the same position as you and FAILED miserably in Wales!!
Thankfully I did'nt! BTW never bought a tabloid in my entire life.
Blewyn
news:2%Ca8.45918$as2.7...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
>
> "Blewyn" <ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:a4eeop$su5$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> >
> > "Jimmy Daniels" <jimmy....@virgin.net> wrote in message
> > news:YJb38.1323$Ph2.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > > If what you claim is more of a reality rather than sentiment, I for
one
> > will
> > > settle for the performance of the IWP at the next election, since they
> > > certainly do appear to me to be forcing the issue. Let's see what
> > transpires
> > > eh?
>
> > I'm sure you will, safe in the knowledge that their unwillingness to
bomb
> > people combined with the inherent bias of the English media will ensure
> that
> > they are given little serious publicity.
>
> Burning holiday cottages, who knows? Who mentioned bombs? They don't have
> the technology do they? As for the English media, all you highlight as far
> as I'm concerned is the total absence of the Welsh equivallent that could
> perhaps sustain an element of equilibrium to contradict what you suggest
the
> English media are guilty of.
>
> > > To accuse the majority of being like blind herds following the UK
trend
> is
> > > an arrogant assumption of a minority view. You may well have ignored
> that
> > > their voting pattern is based on what they the majority consider as
> voting
> > > for what they believe, hence contrary to your view. Another point you
> may
> > > well have missed or deliberately ignored is that the view of
> anti-English
> > > figures like GabI have been universally condemned by all the media,
not
> > just
> > > the English derived.
>
> > You missed the half-page article in the Sunday Times that supported his
> > assertion that the people moving in to Wales are an economic drain ? How
> > convenient.
>
> I missed the whole of the Times and totally dismiss any claim you do or
> anyone else for that matter that long serving English PAYE contributors
are
> a drain on the Welsh economy.
Income tax is paid centrally. NHS costs are paid locally. Older people
tend to have high usage of medical services, so the higher the proportion of
auld codgers in the local population, the higher the NHS spending per head.
Ergo, English pensioners retiring to Wales are a drain on the economy.
> > Again you miss the point. No-one's comparing Wales as an example of any
> > kind to any other area. I don't care what happens outside Wales. That
> Tyne
> > & Wear suffers economically doesn't mean that Welsh people shouldn't
seek
> to
> > improve their lot.
>
> Not missing any point. Without any comparison whatsoever, you can not
gauge
> any hardships.
Of course you can. Do you compare UK experience in the winter with that of
Moscow, and conclude that we shouldn't distibute extra coal to these
namby-pamby old people who don't know what cold is ? Welsh people should
define their own goal by their own standards - believe me, the English don't
wait to see if it's OK with Wales before taking a decison to improve their
lot !
> > > Well Mr Sainsbury, Mr Tesco and Mr Safeway employ a large number of
> Welsh
> > > people in Wales. Stop moaning like a spoilt child. Perhaps these
> > > organisations should be taken out of Wales and perhaps this time round
> > > someone like yourself will show some conviction and set up an
> equivallent?
>
> > Indeed ! That is precisely what should happen. Remove the rich foreign
> > competition and indigenous business will flourish.
>
> You can only remove the competition by competing against them. this is
what
> you and others are not prepared to do.
No - you can compete against them on their terms, or on your own. It's all
very easy for established concerns to turn around, once they have taken
advantage of an unjust and unfair system to simply acquire a critical mass
of capital power, and say "OK we'll compete fairly with you now". The
Danish government supports its homegrown Maersk corporation in a variety of
industries (including retail) for this very reason, in order to ensure that
Danish spending recirculates within Denmark.
> All you can come up with is to
> blindly remove the competition and just assume that the market will
thencome
> to you. Missed the boat? Then catch up! and stop showing your sheer envy
> towards those that took the initiative whilst you and your kind simply sat
> on your arse watching the World go by.
You've just got a huge chip on your shoulder about the fact that you've set
up your own company (in, by your own admission, an uncompetitve market) and
you don't want to see anyone else succeed without having to undergo the same
challenges and hardships as you did. This is entirely a selfish reactionary
view and nothing to do with what's best for the future of Wales.
I want prosperity for Wales, and I don't really care how Wales acquires that
prosperity - and I certainly don't care if Welsh people acquire that
prosperity by political imposition.
> > Every other European
> > country adopts this practice to one degree or another - why shouldn't
> Wales
> > ?
>
> Europe is open for business and competition is wide open and unrestricted.
Nonsense. Plenty of markets and products are still restricted by national
practice.
> You want the competition removed, so you can survive on as minimal an
effort
> as possible.
No - I want the unfair advantage of years and years of English domination
through capital spending power removed, and I want to see Welsh spending
recirculated within the Welsh economy, not removed to English pockets.
> > > What happens is consequential of who and how many provide support, i.e
> the
> > > custom. They are the Welsh people and it's time for you to accept
this.
>
> > The Welsh people have NEVER voted for a Tory government - yet the last
> Tory
> > parliament lasted 18 years. What happens is NOT the consequence of
Welsh
> > political will.
>
> Moving goal posts and totally changing direction! The Welsh people support
> these large Companies do they not? The Tories are incidental to their
> existence and any other political party for that matter. We are still on
the
> same subject are'nt we?
I thought you meant political support. The Welsh people support these large
companies indeed, and the blame for many closures can be laid at the feet of
short-sighted local businesses, but that doesn't alter the fact that the
current situation is unacceptable, that Welsh people deserve better. Unless
financial services and the stock exchange are relocated in Wales, the
situation will never change.
> > There is relevance in that it is fair to point out what could be
improved
> if
> > the Welsh ran their own affairs. It is not relevant to point out that
> some
> > parts of England suffer many of the same problems that Wales does. If
> > England has high unemployment, does that mean Welsh people shouldn't
> expect
> > to have jobs ?
>
> No, but can not in that particular instance present examples of hardships
> like you do from time to time that some English parts are flourishing
whilst
> Wales suffers. Can't have it both ways here Blewyn.
Yes I can. I can point out that the English-dominated government allows SE
England to flourish while Wales languishes, and I can point out that Welsh
people should seek to improve the quality of life in Wales without reference
to English economic standards.
> > > Er??? I'm a Welshman, living, working and employing Welsh people in
> Wales
> > > Blewyn. I did'nt turn my back on it and went for the easier option of
> > > working for someone else across the border. Believe me, I've a sound
> > > knowledge of economics with a business CV of almost 20 years to prove
it
> > and
> > > stretching right through the last recession. Many others have done
> > likewise
> > > and yet have to listen to your patronising naive rants.
>
> > So how come you don't understand that centralisation of profit in the
> hands
> > of business owners in this country will always result in wealth being
> > transferred from Wales to SE England ?
>
> It does'nt and that's the whole naivety on your part. These large
companies
> employ Welsh people.
Yes, the same Welsh people who, in the 1950s and 60s, were largely employed
by and/or owned local retailers, now long gone.
You do understand that this employment is not a gift of the supermarket,
bestowed upon the grateful people by Lord Sainsbury and his ilk, but a
privilege they enjoy by local consent ?
> Not once have you acknowledged this. I do believe that
> your naiveness would stretch to the extent that if these large Companies
> were to register with Companies House in Cardiff instead of London, you'd
> believe that Wales would be better off.
Wales might be a tiny tiny bit better off, but no, I don't think that. It
would take much more.
> More relevance for prosperity would
> be biased towards the people directly working for their salaries than the
HQ
> of the relevant Company.
Economic diversity depends to a large degree on the availability of
disposable income over and above survival levels. What I mean is, if you
want to have boat-builders, quality cafes and restaurants, independent car
manufacturers, quality furniture makers etc etc in an area, then you have to
have people who can afford to spend on luxury goods. These people - ie
those who are well paid - tend to work at centres of commerce, not branch
offices. So if a company has wealth-generating operations in Wales but has
the main HQ in England, that means that profits generated in Wales (money
from YOUR pocket) is used to pay for a costly overhead in England. Not only
that, but the salaries paid at HQ mean that English ancilliary services
prosper, while the only enterprises that prosper in Wales are those that the
working class can afford.
> > Indeed I could probably do more in Wales - but the least I can do from
> here
> > is post on this NG !
>
> Shame that will have an insignificant effect on the constitution.
Might, might not. You've heard of the Tokyo earthquake theory right ?
> > > > You have an extremely naive view of business and competition.
> > >
> > > I must have a very naive view of business Blewyn. In business for
almost
> > 20
> > > years. Have you run your "OWN" business? Until then you will also know
> > very
> > > little about competition. I don't think your qualified to be honest
> > Blewyn.
>
> > What a load of egotistical bollocks. Many people who don't own their
own
> > businesses perform many of the functions of an owner-manager, and many
> such
> > people will be - as I am - operating in highly competitive markets.
>
> I've managed elsewhere for several years before this career. Managing
> someone elses business is a piece of cake compared to managing your own.
> Accountability of the non-owner manager is limited to the job description
> and void of the responsibility of the ultimate survival of that
enterprise.
> Don't sit there telling me they are the same.
You obviously haven't worked in a sufficiently challenging business, or
aren't very good at managing your own.
> > Simply
> > having run your own business doesn't instantly raise the validity of
your
> > opinion over that of others - it still has to be well-reasoned and
> logical,
> > facets which are consistently absent from your knee-jerk rants.
>
> Not ranting in the least. You're losing your rag because you're questioned
> on your much limited commercial knowledge. Running your own does raise the
> validity of the argument and is not for you to question if that business
has
> survived some considerable time and is successful. You have yet to do what
> many have and yet you are trully a man for all Seasons and subjects.
> Basically, you're becoming very frustrated yet again.
>
None of which counters my point that having experience does not absolve one
from having to put forward a reasoned and rational argument. "I'm
experienced so just do what I say" simply isn't an arguement.
> > > You often waffle in areas you know very little about. Managing for
> someone
> > > else is one thing. Running your own is quite a different kettle of
fish,
> > > especially in a geographic location you could'nt even get off the
> ground.
>
> > No, it's not. You clearly have no imagination outside your own
> experience.
>
> The absence of immagination is exactly what it takes to do what you have
> done and left your Country for the English gravy train.
American and Scottish actually, but never mind. You obviously think that my
employers (oilfield American company) are in the habit of giving their
employees and easy ride, and that you're the hard-working pioneer. I don't
suppose for one minute that you haven't worked hard, but in this respect
you're really no different to anyone else.
> Only tonight, Dafydd Iwan was criticising your kind on a special language
> programme on S4C for running this Country into ruin. He suggested that the
> ex-pats like yourself leave what you do, come back and put some effort
into
> it. I agreed with him on that point. The problem is that you are to
selfish
> to do that, despite your calls for the good of the Welsh cause. Lack the
> ability and plenty to say. Words and words alone!
No point coming back to a country that hasn't the balls to stand up for
itself.
> > > Losing competitors become handicapped to the superior performance of
the
> > > other. It's not a condition from the onset.
>
> > No - they're handicapped because of the larger capital of the other.
>
> Tough titty! There will always be someone else with access to more Capital
> than you. Wake up to the real World.
Haha doesn't take long to reach the limit of your reasoning ability does it
?
> > Er...just like the non-English speaker is 'handcuffed' at present ?
>
> The non-English speaker could'nt communicate within the UK. The non-Welsh
> speaker gets along just fine.
Except when they apply for jobs where Welsh is a required skill...
> > > > Unfair ? We're talking about business here ? What's this 'fairness'
> > > nonsense
> > > > you keep banging on about ? Do you want to compete more effectively
> > > against
> > > > the English or not ?
> > >
> > > I'm competing against the English and the Welsh right now. I don't
need
> to
> > > disadvantage the competition. If anyone needs to do that, it's best
that
> > > they remain working for someone else, instead of being permanently
> molley
> > > coddled in a false environment.
Who said anything about 'permanent' ? Do you think then that American
companies are 'mollycoddled' because they are backed by the threat of
military action, in some industries ?
> > Me, me, me. I've done this, I've done that.
>
> You asked the question and I see what I previously expected when the
answer
> is given, SOUR GRAPES! Don't ask the question if the answer makes you pig
> sick!
Just pointing out your apparent inability to analyse the debate objectively,
without continuous and repetitive reference to your own situation and
circumstances.
> > What has your situation to do
> > with the clearly different situation of the majority of the people of
> Wales
>
> You asked me a few questions and I answered. I never implied that my
> scenario is the be all and end all. All I have indicated much earlier on
is
> that more Welsh people could get off their butts and have a go.
> Unfortunately that's a trait not genetically shared by a few I could
> mention, yourself included.
Haha you have NO idea what I've done so far, so you can shut yer hole on
that one right away. Your point about genetics is so utterly dumb that it
beggars belief. Do you think that national character is all nature and no
nurture ?
> > ? You seem to wallow in a self-righteous glow of contempt for anyone
who
> > doesn't seem able or willing to compete commercially. Are you not aware
> > that established interests have an unfair advantage, not to mention the
> fact
> > that most Welsh people have little capital of their own ?
>
> Again, you've asked me a few questions which I've answered you. You appear
> disturbed by the same replies. I've said to you that I had no advantages
> over say, what you had when you were here in Wales and ready for work. You
> mention able and also mention willing. Not willing to compete commercially
> is something I have no sympathy for. Hardly contempt. Little Capital is
not
> ample reason to suggest the commercial unviablity of the potential
business
> person and I would dismiss that as a valid excuse as an inability.
Try rewriting the above in either of the two languages we both understand.
> > Besides, what has the competitive behaviour of foreigners to do with the
> > Welsh ?
>
> I don't believe I'm reading this. You keep ranting on about the advantages
> that the foreign competition have time and time again over the Welsh
Doesn't mean the Welsh should organise themselves according to foreign
standards, does it ?
> >Wales should be run for the Welsh, not according to some
> > self-obsessed businessman's macho stance over competing with England..
>
> Still blantantly sour? You stay as an employee matey! Suits you better. If
> you did create your own business, watch out for some people that will
> dislike you for it. Clearly it comes with the territory. You have been
> warned. "Llwyddiant" is not welcome amongst the narrow minded. Your kind
> feel more comfortable and secure in the company of the "dim Llwyddiant".
> Many Welsh business people I speak to say exactly the same thing including
a
> succesful Caernarfon Insurance Broker that I don't doubt for one minute
that
> you would know and Garage owners on Anglesey and Llanwnda. All you can do
> is knock because you just could'nt be arsed to try yourself. Sad!
No doubt you all mentally masturbate each other at the Yacht Club, away from
the rabble, while all around you roads get swept, fields get planted,
children are taught and patients are healed. Insurance Broking in
Caernarfon, well well there's a heroic contribution to the local economy.
This is your world view of Wales : "I am a hero. All around me are
worthless undeserving failures. Best to get rid of them all."
That's it. You don't express any further view on the subject - failing
utterly to recognise, for example, that growing a successfuly Welsh economy
would further your own company, whereas allowing wholesale foreign ownership
and domination of markets will one day surely lead to someone like Ted
Turner simply squashing you out like a fly, without a second thought.
> > > I've answered the question
> >
> > No, you haven't. The nurses have been brought over by specific request
by
> > the government, because their jobs are so bad that no British person is
> > willing to do it.
>
> The question has been answered. They are here, regardless of the reason.
> > The question was - "do you believe that any foreigner should be allowed
to
> > compete for any UK job" ?
>
> Yes! They already do. I can compete with any Company in Europe if I could
be
> bothered to set base in another European Country. It's open for business.
> Gwynedd Shipping (amongst many others) near Caernarfon are doing just that
> right now. Mansel Davies fron West Wales is another example. Hundreds of
> Welsh business divulge in this activity. Wake up!
You've deliberately misunderstood the question yet again. Let me spell it
out unequivocally :
Do you believe that any foreigner should be able to apply and acquire
employment in the UK for any private employer, in direct competition with UK
citizens, with no restriction ?
> > > Richer? What a load of twaddle. But if you think you can persuade
them,
> > > perhaps you need to consider coming home to do that? If that's too
much
> of
> > a
> > > sacrifice for you, then you'll surely understand if people don't
listen
> to
> > > you?
>
> > Plenty at home agree with me already, just fanning the fire..
>
> Then it's no surprise that this "plenty" just does'nt amount to enough
does
> it? Judging from actual experience, language and prosperity share no
> commonality.
Judging from your total abscence of imagination outside your own experience,
I'm not surprised that you think that.
If you want to market a pop group in Italy, do you market them in Italian,
or English ?
> > > This is an awful analogy. You still don't accept that in Germany, they
> > speak
> > > German. In France it's French and likewise in the Netherlands. In
Wales
> > it's
> > > English. That is the main Commercial language. Now that is fact. This
is
> > > what you want to change.
>
> > Of course. Then Welsh people would have a commercial advantage over
> > incomers. I see nothing wrong with that.
>
> You're a dreamer. Welsh people are managing now. If it takes a linguistic
> barrier to achieve this success of yours, do you seriously think that this
> so-called vital criteria is all that's stopping them becoming prosperous?
If
> they depend on that Blewyn, I'm afraid they just don't have the heart nor
> the will.
No, the vital criteria is - as you allude to - is the common purpose and
will to build a nation of our own, which will stand on its own two feet and
will not allow other nations to simply profit from it and ridicule its
people. Language is an essential factor in achieving the critical mass of
opinion required to make this happen.
> > > I'm being realistic and totally ignoring the value of sentiment on
this
> > > issue. You need to have the support of the Welsh voter to achieve what
> you
> > > wish and yet you appear to concede that what you would like to see
> > > implemented offers them nothing in return. Time to wake up to reality
> > Blewyn
>
> > What I proposed offers them an immediate economic boost simply from the
> fact
> > that wealth will again begin to recirculate in Wales,
>
> But this is not fact though? It's merely your dream and one without
> conviction from yourself. welsh people are'nt bothered about buying "only"
> in Wales. I know of many people including Nationalists like I've said
> before, that go across the border to do their big shopping sprees. You've
> set yourself an impossible mountain to climb and far from reality.
They go across the border - to Chester, I presume - because the
Chester-based businesses know that they can locate there and capture
signifcant proportions of North Welsh shopping expenditure. National-run
business in North Wales may even close branches in Wales to maximise
profits, leaving people with no option but to shop in Chester.
An improved N-S road and a proper N-S rail link in Wales would increase
trade within Wales, and has the potential to make Aberystwyth a retail
mecca, given that it already has a University and given that it is and ideal
spot for quality leisure business.
> > rather than leaking
> > out. In the longer term, what I propose offers their children a stable
> and
> > separate nation that can weather economic storms on its own, without
> having
> > to suffer the indifference of a media-obsessed London government.
>
> Yes yes yes and these are the figures to support your claim £ blank! You
> keep making these outrageous claims and when questioned all you can come
up
> with is "Dissprove Me"
What figures ?
> > > Wales never had control of the scale of today's commerce. What they
had
> > > control was nowhere near to today's growth and scale. Stop dreaming
man.
> >
> > You keep saying 'stop dreaming', what are you afraid of ?
>
> Certainly not afraid of running a business in Wales am I? You are! Like I
> said earlier, Wales never had control of these large Corporations.
And you don't want it to....Many people run small businesses in Wales, so
what, it's domestic ownership or control of large-scale industry that
matters..
> > > I don't see what they's written to be drivel, nor do I see what they
say
> > as
> > > anti-Welsh. I see them as being more Welsh than you. They are in wales
> and
> > > supprting the Welsh economy. You make no such contribution.
>
> > They are in Wales profiting from the Welsh economy, yet consistently
argue
> > that the language should not be supported and consistently argue against
> any
> > degree of self-government for the Welsh people. That tells me all I
need
> to
> > know about the motives behind their reactionary drivel.
>
> Now lets get a couple of commercial facts straight here. They are
profiting
> from the welsh economy you say. Why did'nt you include that they may well
be
> employing Welsh people. They are in Wales and anyone that is in Wales and
> employed are doing more than you. Glass houses spring to mind!
I do believe the focus of the debate was Independence for Wales, not
whatever I might be doing or not doing...You say these people are 'employing
Welsh people', I say they are using a capital advantage to compete against
Welsh business.
The most oft-quoted example - the working class family from SE England who,
through no industry of their own, have seen the value of their house inflate
way above the relative value of Welsh houses in recent years. They sell,
move up and buy a pub or shop in Wales, so 'Y Goron' becomes'The Crown' etc
etc
> > Haven't you noticed that all these people only ever post criticisms,
never
> > ideas of their own ? The most they offer is a continuation of the status
> > quo.
>
> I think that you've had suggestios in the past by many of these posters.
> I've given you examples of what the Welsh possibly could do. The problem
is
> that you take none of it on board. You just won't have it. Simple as that.
What examples - not the tired old Norman Tebbit line again ?
> > > Best of luck to you. I would imagine Labour masturbating at the moment
> > with
> > > the way Plaid have been split right down the middle with the recent
> > > defections. How ironic it's all turned out. The once united
Nationalists
> > > have now been split into two, Plaid and the fundamental radicals -
IWP.
>
> > It is ironic and sad, and entirely the fault of the Plaid leadership
that
> > they allowed the pro-Labour media to prise them apart so easily. On the
> > other hand, the IWP are a new, harder voice in politics (albeit
currently
> in
> > infancy) more reminiscent of the SNP than Plaid - and the SNP are held
in
> > much higher regard than Plaid ever were.
>
> Do you expect anything different with so little strength. Glad you said
that
> it takes one Party to take them appart. then they were too weak then
were'nt
> they? Besides they were taken appart by the massive division within their
> own ranks. It all started the day Simon Glyn walked into a Cardiff Studio
> some time ago. that's what created the cracks that created the current
> division. IWP? A friggin joke!
So YOU keep saying, but then I guess your motives are clear. Nothing to
gain from increased use of Welsh in the commercial sector..
> > > Any idiot would presume that to be the motive anyway.
>
> > And that is entirely right and proper. The English have run the UK for
> > their own benefit for centuries.
>
> And allowing for free competition beyond your own back yard, you're left
> with? what the English have done and the Welsh and the Scots and the
Irish,
> an open market. same as that non-Welsh gas transporting Company you are
> working for Blewyn. Should they be removed from Wales? If so, are your
> bosses aware of your views? Consistency please!
The English have only ever permitted open competition when they were already
in a position of complete dominance, and have simply retained it ever since.
You evidently think I work for a gas-transporting compoany. I don't. My
company isn't in Wales, and indeed, if we were, I absolutely think that we
should be required to open a Welsh office.
> > You missed the point again. Going by your logic, speaking English is no
> > more essential than speaking Welsh, and we might as well all start
> speaking
> > German so we can all be identical EU citizens.
>
> English is more essential in Wales though. That goes without saying
Depends what you want to do. See you failed to answer the point, a-g-a-i-n.
Do you think we should all learn German then ? Or perhaps we should simply
so not keep using British English, like whatever...
> >Remember - we can all speak their language, and get their jobs
> > and contracts..
>
> I know, we're doing it. What a shame that you feel that the only way you
> could compete in Wales is by introducing a communication medium with them
> that they can not understand.
Not the only way - but definetely a huge competitve advanteg in some areas.
You are aware that there are industries different to yours in Wales, yes ?
> > > I've asked you to present examples whereby Welsh is "essential". You
> have
> > > failed to do this.
>
> > The desire to use Welsh as a commercial tool doesn't have to be morally
> > justified on the basis of functional requirement to you or anyone else.
>
> That's an adequate answer to me. I said it was not essential in Welsh
> commerce and it clearly remains so. Neither does anyone have to justify to
> you or anyone else why the language is widely ignored in the commercial
> sector.
The whole point is that Welsh people should make it essential, and turn the
situation to their own advantage. The fact that an English speaker can get
a job in Caernarfon, thereby imposing English on their co-workers, while it
is NOT possible to insist that one should not be required to speak English,
in the same town, is quite clearly morally wrong and quite clearly to the
detriment of the employment propspects of the local populace.
> > > What you are suggesting is no more than eliminating the competition by
> > using
> > > a form of communication beyond the reach of the non-Welsh speaker. No
> > matter
> > > how you dress this one up, this is what you are suggesting. Language
has
> > > absolutely f*** all to do with prosperity and anyone who thinks
> otherwise
> > is
> > > in cuckoo land.
>
> > That's exactly what I'm proposing ! Just like every other country in
the
> > EU, we should protect our own home markets from foreigners - how do the
> > Welsh people possibly benefit by making it easier for non-Welsh speakers
> to
> > compete ?
>
> A Language that is not essential does'nt bring prosperity, full stop!
Bollocks. It can make a world of difference.
> > > The only trend you need to reverse is the prosperity of the region and
> > that
> > > means jobs. Tell me how stopping Jack Sais's Welsh settlement achieves
> an
> > > increase in availability of jobs. what you would end up with is a
"Welsh
> > > Only" Ghetto, unless the Welsh themselves initiate something to
> contradict
> > > this no prosperity situation. You're in a dream World Blewyn.
>
> > Simple. JS the holiday home owner actually reduces local trade because
> the
> > house goes unoccupied for much of the year, and because he tends to
stock
> up
> > in England before coming to Wales for the weekend.
>
> Ah I see! So the definition of your Welsh commerce is limited to Autie
> Gwen's local grocery? I thought all along that you had a wider perpective
of
> potential prosperity to these poor areas than a grocery store and a couple
> of extra staff. So that's why these areas are suffering? Wow, you learn
> something new every day!
Don't be a twat JD..the density of local population affects every single
business in the area, due to the knock-on effect of spending. Do I really
have to explain this the the Business Master ? Empty houses means reduced
trade means no conservatory from local builder means no holiday from local
travel firm means no beer at local pub means lower fees for local accountant
means closure of local bank branch means lower take at local garage means
........it goes on and on and on. You are extremely fortunate in that your
business (evidently) does not depend on local spending in the same way as
most, yet still you fail utterly to see this..
> > JS the incomer - as was
> > pointed out by an English columnist in the Sunday Times, in more
> > media-friendly terms than GabI - tends to be a benefit claimant,
'artist'
> or
> > retiree, ie non-wealth-generating individuals after an easy ride in the
> > country.
>
> So the English media are ok all of a sudden are they?
No - the Times were simply using the story to highlight GabI's treatment at
the hands of Labour, and in order to put Labour in a bad light they had to
portray GabI as the underdog..
Or did they just so
> happen to say a particular thing that pleases you? What's wrong with an
easy
> ride in the Country?
I'm not interested in what's right or wrong for immigrants who want an easy
ride in the country, only in what's right or wrong for Wales..
> > > I see, so now we are going back to the similar concept adopted by
Seimon
> > > Glyn on the Radio wales Interview which can only be interpreted as
> > > "Intergrate and you will not receive a financial penalty" or "Do as we
> do
> > > and you'll be ok" I can see it becoming policy Blewyn. Can I bollocks.
>
> > What your limited imagination can allow you to see is hardly relevant to
> > what could actually be done.
>
> Your limited vision is quite incredible! 80% of Welsh people will not
> benefit from what you suggest. Not even the remaining 20% would see you
eye
> to eye. In a Television survey out today, even the indeginous Welsh
speakers
> to the tune of a massive 30% do not speak Welsh to their children and yet
> you feel there's hope of converting the existing 80% of non-Welsh speakers
> to think as you do?
That 30% can easily be accounted for by those who have married non-Welsh
speakers and are living in a predominantly English-speaking area, and those
who are just too plain thick to realise what they're losing. I guess if the
limit of your cultural participation and appreciation is voting on Pop Idol,
then the language doesn't have the same value..
> > > > > Fro Gymraeg will pay five times the standard rate of Council
> Tax"....
> > >
> > > > Absolutely - that goes for any part of the UK, in my opinion.
> > >
> > > Wonderful. I've no doubt that the voters will show their disgust at
the
> > > ballot box.
> >
> > Disgust ? Getting a bit emotional are we ? Why 'disgust' JD ?
>
> The lack of impartiality to an already unbiased and non-prejudicial free
> market. If the won't feel any disgust, then no doubt the IWP are on to a
> winner? I'll bet for the contrary though.
The boss of Eryri National Park was asked last night why he hadn't
implemented the same measures we now see on the table from Exmoor and
Pembroke. The answer "Because unlike Pembroke and Exmoor, we would have
been accused of racism."
The free market is nowhere near as important to Welsh prosperity as is Welsh
Independence and the Welsh language.
> > > Because the proposal will only achieve the support of the radical
> > > anti-English voter. There are'nt enough of you. Makes plenty of sense
to
> > me.
>
> > Yeah right - so you think that Welsh people wouldn't jump at the chance
to
> > make it more difficult for the English to come in and take their houses
> and
> > jobs..
>
> Some of the Welsh will, just not in sufficient numbers to have any
> significant impact.
If a mainstream party put forward such proposals, they would receive a
landslide victory.
> > > >But you think they should work hard,
> > > > even though all their lives they have seen people around them work
> hard
> > > and
> > > > get nothing for it.
>
> > > Are you suggesting some remain lazy? that's what it looks like
>
> > I'm suggesting a different tactic is required, so that hard work can be
> seen
> > to be rewarded.
>
> But you've implied that some people would be deterred from working harder
> because others around them have failed? Losers mentality? I quote you
> again -
>
> "But you think they should work hard, even though all their lives they
have
> seen people around them work hard and get nothing for it".
Indeed, which is why the situation needs to be altered so that people can
work and see tangible benefits from their work. You slag off the people you
see around you, but you don't imagine what the world looks like through
their eyes.
> > > > So you want to remove any advantage Wales may have over England,
just
> to
> > > > make sure that these 'lazy moaners' don't get a head-start.
>
> > > No lazy moaner should have any head start, regardless of where they
are.
> > > Again, are you suggesting otherwise? Again, it appears so.
>
> > Not at all - I believe everyone should start a race at the same level.
> > Unfortunately, the average Welsh person starts in a working-class home
> with
> > no capital and no tradition of ownership or management, and no
leadership.
>
> So do people outside Wales. So what?
All these people are clearly disadvantaged in comparison to those who are
given the financial and educational head-start in life traditionally
associated with the owning classes, not to mention the lack of parental
example in leadership and management. You yourself have, in this very post,
expressed the typical nouveau riche desire to abandon the home town of your
children for a Shangri-La, rather than sticking around to give them guidance
and fortitude in adult life. The people Wales needs to compete with are
empire-builders, not 'entrepreneurs', and this is the attitude that,
politically, Wales needs to take as a whole.
> > Those in the UK who actually do own business (notwithstanding honourable
> > exceptions such as yourself, of course)usually start at a very different
> > point indeed.
>
> That's utter bollocks. I'm a million miles away from the exception. You're
> making it sound as an impossibility. Nothing could be further from the
> truth.
Evidence to the contrary is all around. The vast majority of current owners
are descendants of owners.
> > I have no qualms about giving the Welsh people a commercial
> > advantage over all others. The Americans are perfectly clear in their
> > intentions, always placing their own interests ahead of all others. I
see
> > no reason why the Welsh shouldn't be the same.
>
> Neither do I. A level start as you suggest sounds pretty idylic and is a
far
> cry from reality, no matter where you are.
Agreed, far too idealistic for today - but we shouldn't let that stop us
from putting in place measures to increase Welsh ownership, to the detriment
of foreign 'investors'.
> > > Oh, what a hardship. Time to catch up then is'nt it Blewyn. Na, we
can't
> > > have that can we, we want to go straight to the premier league and the
> > only
> > > way to achieve this is to handcuff the competition. pathetic!
>
> > What's pathetic about it ? Or do you think the Welsh people haven't the
> > right to take what's theirs ? I say these foreign companies have been
> > guests in our economy for long enough..
>
> Thes foreign Companies have perhaps employed Welsh people for too long?
> Perhaps it's time they moved out just to see if your kind take the
> initiative the tenth time round? That's what's pathetic!
Today's generation of Welsh people are very first to be brought up with the
right and proper expectation that they might actually be more than working
class or academic fodder.
> > > No Blewyn, the truth about me is that I love Wales enough to be here.
I
> > love
> > > wales enough to do as many others do and employ Welsh people. I
suppose
> > I'm
> > > making them really suffer are'nt I. Perhaps I should stop employing
> Welsh
> > > people, do what you have done and try to find a better financial offer
> in
> > > England? The truth about me, my arse! Look at yourself Blewyn!
>
> > So why don't you want more Welsh people to prosper ?
>
> I do, just don't agree with your fantasy rules to achieve prosperity. If
you
> want more Welsh people to prosper, I suggest you move here and take some
> actual action. Many have and so have I. Should I really continue to take
> anything you say on this issue with anything but a pinch of salt? Come on
> Blewyn, just a smidge of conviction would account for some credibility to
> your position.
You're not prepared to take any political steps whatsoever to improve
commercial conditions for Welsh business, in the face of capital-rich
English and multinational competition. Seems to me you place foreign
business practices above the wellbeing of the Welsh people..
> > > > I said 'look to home' as in 'sbia adra', ie. analyse your own
> behaviour
> > > > before you criticise others. You're not exactly a fount of reason,
> JD.
> > >
> > > That's what I'm doing and it appears clear to me that I'm making more
of
> a
> > > contribution than you, the person that thinks that he's cast from the
> > > ultimate Welsh mould. There's some real truths for you to ponder at
> >
> > You keep harping on about your massive contribution -
>
> But you tell me to look at the home front. I'm doing that. You are'nt!
Every
> time you say such, I'll remind you time and time again. it's not going
away.
> You need a bigger axe.
>
> > has it occurred to you
> > that if you weren't doing what you are, then someone else would ?
>
> Yes and I've stated so. Funny that there's still no serious competition
> though.
Hang on, I thought you said you operated in a very competitive environment ?
Which is it ?
> > Has any of the above got anything to do with taking steps to promote the
> > interests of the Welsh people ?
>
> The above what? If you mean employment then clearly there is an interest
for
> the benefit of Welsh people. Unless you can prove otherwise of course?
No-all this harping on about your own achievements. You have managed to
succeed in current conditions. Does this mean you don't want to see your
children have it any easier ? Do you resent it when people have better lives
than you ?
> > > You have the naivety to believe that geographic location has no
bearing
> on
> > > prosperity. I heard Bill Gates is moving his entire empire over to
> > > Llanaelhaearn
>
> > If Mohammed won't go to the mountain....who do you think controls
economic
> > migration, through roadbuilding and market management ? The same people
> who
> > think that the Olympic Stadium should be in London simply because it's
our
> > capital city, and had the right to all UK wealth.
>
> You just lack the ability to grasp the basics and waffle on regardless.
Very
> weak indeed. You fail to acknowledge the relevance between geographical
> location and prosperity or the lack of it
Geography is relevant in that it influences the behaviour of the free
market. The purpose of government is to manage and limit the extreme
influences of the free market. Where the free makret does not benefit a
people, then they have every right to restrict it.
> > > How you can say Screw the English and not expect criticism is beyond
me.
> >
> > I didn't say "Screw The English", I said "Screw what Jack Sais wants or
> > doesn't want". Big difference.
>
> Jack Sais is the equivallent of Jack English. NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER!
Ok, seeing as you're having difficulty, one more time, I said "screw what
they want", not "screw them".
> > Maybe you should read less of the Sun and
> > more of the Economist, JD.
>
> If I read the Sun and needed the assistance of the Economist, no doubt
that
> I would be in the same position as you and FAILED miserably in Wales!!
> Thankfully I did'nt! BTW never bought a tabloid in my entire life.
You should try them, you might learn some new words.
Blewyn
Daniels@virgin.net Jimmy Daniels
"Blewyn" <ble...@SPAM-ME-NOTbtinternet.com> wrote in message
> "Jimmy Daniels" <Jimmy Dan...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:2%Ca8.45918$as2.7...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > Burning holiday cottages, who knows? Who mentioned bombs? They don't
have
> > the technology do they? As for the English media, all you highlight as
far
> > as I'm concerned is the total absence of the Welsh equivallent that
could
> > perhaps sustain an element of equilibrium to contradict what you suggest
> the
> > English media are guilty of.
> >
> Er..sorry but can you rewrite that so it amkes sense please ?
Makes plenty of sense. No I will not re-write it for you.
> > > You missed the half-page article in the Sunday Times that supported
his
> > > assertion that the people moving in to Wales are an economic drain ?
How
> > > convenient.
> > I missed the whole of the Times and totally dismiss any claim you do or
> > anyone else for that matter that long serving English PAYE contributors
> are
> > a drain on the Welsh economy.
> Income tax is paid centrally. NHS costs are paid locally. Older people
> tend to have high usage of medical services, so the higher the proportion
of
> auld codgers in the local population, the higher the NHS spending per
head.
> Ergo, English pensioners retiring to Wales are a drain on the economy.
You'll be old yourself some day. Don't be so selfish.
> > Not missing any point. Without any comparison whatsoever, you can not
> gauge
> > any hardships.
> Of course you can. Do you compare UK experience in the winter with that
of
> Moscow, and conclude that we shouldn't distibute extra coal to these
> namby-pamby old people who don't know what cold is ? Welsh people should
> define their own goal by their own standards - believe me, the English
don't
> wait to see if it's OK with Wales before taking a decison to improve their
> lot !
Here we go again. Moving the goalposts all the way to Moscow. The English
don't have their own government. It's a Uk government
> > > Indeed ! That is precisely what should happen. Remove the rich
foreign
> > > competition and indigenous business will flourish.
> > You can only remove the competition by competing against them. this is
> what
> > you and others are not prepared to do.
> No - you can compete against them on their terms, or on your own. It's
all
> very easy for established concerns to turn around, once they have taken
> advantage of an unjust and unfair system to simply acquire a critical mass
> of capital power, and say "OK we'll compete fairly with you now". The
> Danish government supports its homegrown Maersk corporation in a variety
of
> industries (including retail) for this very reason, in order to ensure
that
> Danish spending recirculates within Denmark.
You want the competition REMOVED. You can not compete against outsiders. You
should'nt enter the arena if you want to be pampered. what weakness!
> You've just got a huge chip on your shoulder about the fact that you've
set
> up your own company (in, by your own admission, an uncompetitve market)
and
> you don't want to see anyone else succeed without having to undergo the
same
> challenges and hardships as you did.
You're the one with one massive anti-English chip on your shoulder mate and
you are of the "pig sick" type when someone else succeeds. I've never
complained about hardships. LIAR!
> This is entirely a selfish reactionary
> view and nothing to do with what's best for the future of Wales.
Wales is'nt aligned with your train of thought. You're the selfish one who's
too weak to compete with the UK market.
> I want prosperity for Wales, and I don't really care how Wales acquires
that
> prosperity - and I certainly don't care if Welsh people acquire that
> prosperity by political imposition.
We all want prosperity for Wales. Your pathetic cuckoo land methods would
create nothing other than Welsh businesses that would depend entirely on
welsh only trade. If you remove the English competition from Wales, they'll
soon cease to do business with you and when you consider that the Welsh
don't give a shit who they deal with, you're on to yet another loser. You've
first to convince the Welsh to buy only Welsh produce. The don't! You are
that far away up your own arse you can't see it.
> > Europe is open for business and competition is wide open and
unrestricted.
>
> Nonsense. Plenty of markets and products are still restricted by national
> practice.
Absolute bollocks. List them! or are you to go into mute mode again?
> > You want the competition removed, so you can survive on as minimal an
> effort
> > as possible.
> No - I want the unfair advantage of years and years of English domination
> through capital spending power removed, and I want to see Welsh spending
> recirculated within the Welsh economy, not removed to English pockets.
Bullshit. Previous accusation still stands. Since you want money removed
from English pockets, does this mean that you feel guilty when you receive
money from American pockets in the form of your salary?
> I thought you meant political support. The Welsh people support these
large
> companies indeed, and the blame for many closures can be laid at the feet
of
> short-sighted local businesses, but that doesn't alter the fact that the
> current situation is unacceptable, that Welsh people deserve better.
Unless
> financial services and the stock exchange are relocated in Wales, the
> situation will never change.
Good enough of an admission to me that the Welsh play their role in
supporting these large Corporations.
> > No, but can not in that particular instance present examples of
hardships
> > like you do from time to time that some English parts are flourishing
> whilst
> > Wales suffers. Can't have it both ways here Blewyn.
> Yes I can. I can point out that the English-dominated government allows
SE
> England to flourish while Wales languishes, and I can point out that Welsh
> people should seek to improve the quality of life in Wales without
reference
> to English economic standards.
Why should the government restrict the S.E. of Enland? they have superior
access routes, near enough to Trevor McDonalds "The City" and nearer that we
are to the outside World. Prosperity just is't equal and geographic location
will play an important factor in this. You fail to mention that the cost of
living in the S.E of England is much higher than it is in Wales.
> >
> > It does'nt and that's the whole naivety on your part. These large
> companies
> > employ Welsh people.
> Yes, the same Welsh people who, in the 1950s and 60s, were largely
employed
> by and/or owned local retailers, now long gone.
They've gone because "choice" came on the scene and prices came down. Welsh
people supported the changes so you can stop blaming anyone else. The new
kids on the block were bigger and much better. All the same they employ much
larger numbers than your 1950-60's counterparts ever did.
> You do understand that this employment is not a gift of the supermarket,
> bestowed upon the grateful people by Lord Sainsbury and his ilk, but a
> privilege they enjoy by local consent ?
Same privilege they give in the form of product choice and employment to the
local people. Thank god someone took the initiative to take your kind out of
the dark ages. All we came up with was Kwiks.
> > Not once have you acknowledged this. I do believe that
> > your naiveness would stretch to the extent that if these large Companies
> > were to register with Companies House in Cardiff instead of London,
you'd
> > believe that Wales would be better off.
> Wales might be a tiny tiny bit better off, but no, I don't think that. It
> would take much more.
There is no link in where you register your LTD or PLC for that matter with
local prosperity. No relevance whatsoever.
> > More relevance for prosperity would
> > be biased towards the people directly working for their salaries than
the
> HQ
> > of the relevant Company.
> Economic diversity depends to a large degree on the availability of
> disposable income over and above survival levels.
Which your Sainsburys ilk example already provide us.
> What I mean is, if you
> want to have boat-builders, quality cafes and restaurants, independent car
> manufacturers, quality furniture makers etc etc in an area, then you have
to
> have people who can afford to spend on luxury goods. These people - ie
> those who are well paid - tend to work at centres of commerce, not branch
> offices. So if a company has wealth-generating operations in Wales but
has
> the main HQ in England, that means that profits generated in Wales (money
> from YOUR pocket) is used to pay for a costly overhead in England. Not
only
> that, but the salaries paid at HQ mean that English ancilliary services
> prosper, while the only enterprises that prosper in Wales are those that
the
> working class can afford.
The geographical HQ choice is the prerogative of the relevant Company and
not yours. this area of commerce is where you nor any governments can change
beyond the provision of capital grants to lure them. Hardly any point in
mentioing that to you when you've made it categorically clear that you want
competition removed. Or does money speak all languages afterall.?
> > > Indeed I could probably do more in Wales - but the least I can do from
> > here
> > > is post on this NG !
> > Shame that will have an insignificant effect on the constitution.
> Might, might not. You've heard of the Tokyo earthquake theory right ?
Yes and a Volkswagon Golf is a Ford Fiesta on steroids!
> > I've managed elsewhere for several years before this career. Managing
> > someone elses business is a piece of cake compared to managing your own.
> > Accountability of the non-owner manager is limited to the job
description
> > and void of the responsibility of the ultimate survival of that
> enterprise.
> > Don't sit there telling me they are the same.
> You obviously haven't worked in a sufficiently challenging business, or
> aren't very good at managing your own.
After everything I've answered to your questions, you deny my previous
efforts as not even a challenge. You failed here matey, I did'nt and I'll
keep on reminding you everytime you give me reason. managing for someone
else is a piece of cake especially when you can also manage to post so much
whilst being paid by your employers.
> >
> > Not ranting in the least. You're losing your rag because you're
questioned
> > on your much limited commercial knowledge. Running your own does raise
the
> > validity of the argument and is not for you to question if that business
> has
> > survived some considerable time and is successful. You have yet to do
what
> > many have and yet you are trully a man for all Seasons and subjects.
> > Basically, you're becoming very frustrated yet again.
> None of which counters my point that having experience does not absolve
one
> from having to put forward a reasoned and rational argument. "I'm
> experienced so just do what I say" simply isn't an arguement.
I'm having fun with you. Like Woody said to Buzz Lightyear, "you're a child
play thing"! having experience counts as everything. "Theory is a tool for
practice and practice is everything" as someone once said. This counts as
nothing to you as and when it suits, because all you have are words and
words alone. A bag of wind!
> > The absence of immagination is exactly what it takes to do what you have
> > done and left your Country for the English gravy train.
> American and Scottish actually, but never mind. You obviously think that
my
> employers (oilfield American company) are in the habit of giving their
> employees and easy ride, and that you're the hard-working pioneer. I
don't
> suppose for one minute that you haven't worked hard, but in this respect
> you're really no different to anyone else.
Never said I was any different except for being actually supporting Wales
which you have yet to do. You must be having an easy ride, you're
practically glued to the newsgroup.
> No point coming back to a country that hasn't the balls to stand up for
> itself.
That's better. I should frame that one! An absolute Gem!
> > Tough titty! There will always be someone else with access to more
Capital
> > than you. Wake up to the real World.
>
> Haha doesn't take long to reach the limit of your reasoning ability does
it
> ?
This is where you've run out yet again. It's called the real World, not the
World of sentiment which you're so accustomed with.
> > The non-English speaker could'nt communicate within the UK. The
non-Welsh
> > speaker gets along just fine.
> Except when they apply for jobs where Welsh is a required skill...
Yes Blewyn, where the welsh language has been made the number one skill
required by Local Authorities. Beyond the local Authority it seems you need
to adopt Plan "B". Scary eh?
> > > > I'm competing against the English and the Welsh right now. I don't
> need
> > to
> > > > disadvantage the competition. If anyone needs to do that, it's best
> that
> > > > they remain working for someone else, instead of being permanently
> > molley
> > > > coddled in a false environment.
>
> Who said anything about 'permanent' ? Do you think then that American
> companies are 'mollycoddled' because they are backed by the threat of
> military action, in some industries ?
Ah, so the molly coddle is a temporary measure?
> > You asked the question and I see what I previously expected when the
> answer
> > is given, SOUR GRAPES! Don't ask the question if the answer makes you
pig
> > sick!
> Just pointing out your apparent inability to analyse the debate
objectively,
> without continuous and repetitive reference to your own situation and
> circumstances.
Objectively is where I'm struggling with you. You talk total bollocks.
Speaking of your own experiences is better than speaking with no experience
whatsoever
> Haha you have NO idea what I've done so far, so you can shut yer hole on
> that one right away. Your point about genetics is so utterly dumb that it
> beggars belief. Do you think that national character is all nature and no
> nurture ?
Fuck all to Wales have you Blewyn? National character? i certainly do.
Germany make the best cars, no matter what the make they produce. I do
believe that certain areas have it more than others. So do you it seems,
afterallyou did say about Wales -"No point coming back to a country that
hasn't the balls to stand up for itself". The nature will ensure the
nurture!
> > Again, you've asked me a few questions which I've answered you. You
appear
> > disturbed by the same replies. I've said to you that I had no advantages
> > over say, what you had when you were here in Wales and ready for work.
You
> > mention able and also mention willing. Not willing to compete
commercially
> > is something I have no sympathy for. Hardly contempt. Little Capital is
> not
> > ample reason to suggest the commercial unviablity of the potential
> business
> > person and I would dismiss that as a valid excuse as an inability.
>
> Try rewriting the above in either of the two languages we both understand.
Beyond your comprehension, clearly!
> > > Besides, what has the competitive behaviour of foreigners to do with
the
> > > Welsh ?
> >
> > I don't believe I'm reading this. You keep ranting on about the
advantages
> > that the foreign competition have time and time again over the Welsh
> Doesn't mean the Welsh should organise themselves according to foreign
> standards, does it ?
No, just get organised with dealing with the rest of the World instead of
adopting your inward looking measures.
> No doubt you all mentally masturbate each other at the Yacht Club, away
from
> the rabble, while all around you roads get swept, fields get planted,
> children are taught and patients are healed. Insurance Broking in
> Caernarfon, well well there's a heroic contribution to the local economy.
He's employing Welsh people and yes dare I say it, more than you do. You
really are flawed regardless of the angle Blewyn. You'll even criticise a
business that employs Welsh people. You're a jealous little reject!
> This is your world view of Wales : "I am a hero. All around me are
> worthless undeserving failures. Best to get rid of them all."
No no no, that's your inferiority complex getting the better of you whilst
you fail to conceal it.
> That's it. You don't express any further view on the subject - failing
> utterly to recognise, for example, that growing a successfuly Welsh
economy
> would further your own company, whereas allowing wholesale foreign
ownership
> and domination of markets will one day surely lead to someone like Ted
> Turner simply squashing you out like a fly, without a second thought.
I'll be retired by then matey!
> You've deliberately misunderstood the question yet again. Let me spell it
> out unequivocally :
> Do you believe that any foreigner should be able to apply and acquire
> employment in the UK for any private employer, in direct competition with
UK
> citizens, with no restriction ?
Ok, regardless of your relentless goalpost shifting, YES I do, because
there's no legislation I can think of except for parts of Saudi Arabia
whereby you can not, unless you take on a local senior in your business. The
World is practically open for business. Imports and exports show a healthy
exchange in one way and Companies buy and sell to each other in another way
and you can practically set base anywhere. I totally agree witht this trend.
> > Then it's no surprise that this "plenty" just does'nt amount to enough
> does
> > it? Judging from actual experience, language and prosperity share no
> > commonality.
> Judging from your total abscence of imagination outside your own
experience,
> I'm not surprised that you think that.
Well, you've already conceded that the Welsh lack the balls. Imagination is
all you have it seems and a strange one at that.
> If you want to market a pop group in Italy, do you market them in Italian,
> or English ?
Don't know and don't care. Not in the music industry. if I was I'd market
them to incluse Italian because Italians speak Italian. In Wales they speak
English predominantly. Your point?
> > You're a dreamer. Welsh people are managing now. If it takes a
linguistic
> > barrier to achieve this success of yours, do you seriously think that
this
> > so-called vital criteria is all that's stopping them becoming
prosperous?
> If
> > they depend on that Blewyn, I'm afraid they just don't have the heart
nor
> > the will.
> No, the vital criteria is - as you allude to - is the common purpose and
> will to build a nation of our own, which will stand on its own two feet
and
> will not allow other nations to simply profit from it and ridicule its
> people.
Yes, fair enough, a common pupose as you say. It's not a common purpose is
it. You have a massive 80% speaking English only, a mere 20% speaking Welsh
and even 20% of them don't pass it onto their kids. It's never been further
from a common purpose has it? Plan "B" I'm afraid and time for you to adopt
a different approach to the failed ones.
> Language is an essential factor in achieving the critical mass of
> opinion required to make this happen.
With no relevance whatsoever to prosperity. You really do need to wake up!
> They go across the border - to Chester, I presume - because the
> Chester-based businesses know that they can locate there and capture
> signifcant proportions of North Welsh shopping expenditure.
That's right Blewyn and the Welsh do go there which is the relevant point I
made
> National-run
> business in North Wales may even close branches in Wales to maximise
> profits, leaving people with no option but to shop in Chester.
Quite possible. Who's fault is that, the Chester business or the Welsh
people who shop there?
> An improved N-S road and a proper N-S rail link in Wales would increase
> trade within Wales, and has the potential to make Aberystwyth a retail
> mecca,
Come on Blewyn? Aberystwyth? It's another mid-Wales town that will serve
it's immediate surroundings. look at the population per square mile. people
from Carnarfon, Bangor or Pwllheli won't bother in any significant numbers
when a superior Chester choice is only an hour on the A55
>given that it already has a University and given that it is and ideal
> spot for quality leisure business.
I travel through Aberystwyth quite often and see nothing out of the ordinary
there worth more of a mention than any other Welsh Town. at present it's
practically isolated with towns like Porthmadog Corris Machynlleth Glandyfi,
Fwrnais and Tal-Y-Bont. you mention rail I note, That's an absolute joke and
years from getting back on the rails.(No pun intended) The leisure industry
is all I could come up with that's of any practical use as well, given it's
relatively isolated geographical position
> > Certainly not afraid of running a business in Wales am I? You are! Like
I
> > said earlier, Wales never had control of these large Corporations.
> And you don't want it to....Many people run small businesses in Wales, so
> what, it's domestic ownership or control of large-scale industry that
> matters..
It needed initiative much earlier to accomplish the scale you'd like to see.
You can not take control. You earn it. You can't just demand Manweb and the
likes becomes Welsh.
> > Now lets get a couple of commercial facts straight here. They are
> profiting
> > from the welsh economy you say. Why did'nt you include that they may
well
> be
> > employing Welsh people. They are in Wales and anyone that is in Wales
and
> > employed are doing more than you. Glass houses spring to mind!
> I do believe the focus of the debate was Independence for Wales, not
> whatever I might be doing or not doing...You say these people are
'employing
> Welsh people', I say they are using a capital advantage to compete against
> Welsh business.
There's no pleasing you Blewyn. They are employing Welsh people and
Companies don't belong to the people except in the former communist Worlds.
> The most oft-quoted example - the working class family from SE England
who,
> through no industry of their own, have seen the value of their house
inflate
> way above the relative value of Welsh houses in recent years. They sell,
> move up and buy a pub or shop in Wales, so 'Y Goron' becomes'The Crown'
etc
> etc
So what? the Welshman sells for the highest bid. Greedy Welshman gets his
money and Jack Sais becomes the new kid on the block and you end up solely
blaming the buyer and not the seller.
> What examples - not the tired old Norman Tebbit line again ?
Tebbit? or the tired old "it's always Westminsters fault"?
> So YOU keep saying, but then I guess your motives are clear. Nothing to
> gain from increased use of Welsh in the commercial sector..
I've no motive. I'm just toying with you. Your kind will never be a threat.
> The English have only ever permitted open competition when they were
already
> in a position of complete dominance, and have simply retained it ever
since.
Any particular dates spring to mind?
> You evidently think I work for a gas-transporting compoany. I don't. My
> company isn't in Wales, and indeed, if we were, I absolutely think that we
> should be required to open a Welsh office.
But the Company you work for should'nt be allowed in Wales if your
philosophy was adopted. More hypocricy? or is that particular Company
excempt? and you'd conveniently drop this "rid the competition" rule?
> > English is more essential in Wales though. That goes without saying
>
> Depends what you want to do.
80% are managing just fine. I don't see the urgency in the hearts of the
majority.
> See you failed to answer the point, a-g-a-i-n.
> Do you think we should all learn German then ? Or perhaps we should
simply
> so not keep using British English, like whatever...
It's an attempt at yet another pathetic analogy. Learn German for what?
> > I know, we're doing it. What a shame that you feel that the only way you
> > could compete in Wales is by introducing a communication medium with
them
> > that they can not understand.
> Not the only way - but definetely a huge competitve advanteg in some
areas.
> You are aware that there are industries different to yours in Wales, yes ?
So you've broadened your imagination all of a sudden? Please enlighten me.
No Blewyn, my industry is the only one in existence in Wales!
> > That's an adequate answer to me. I said it was not essential in Welsh
> > commerce and it clearly remains so. Neither does anyone have to justify
to
> > you or anyone else why the language is widely ignored in the commercial
> > sector.
> The whole point is that Welsh people should make it essential, and turn
the
> situation to their own advantage.
Back to square one with at least an admission that you feel that you need to
"MAKE" something essential due to failures to compete with the real World.
> The fact that an English speaker can get
> a job in Caernarfon, thereby imposing English on their co-workers,
No more of an imposition that what you are suggesting on the 80% of the
current Welsh population. What a joke!
> > A Language that is not essential does'nt bring prosperity, full stop!
>
> Bollocks. It can make a world of difference.
Hey boss it's da plane again! Dream on or come up with something more
credible.
> > Ah I see! So the definition of your Welsh commerce is limited to Autie
> > Gwen's local grocery? I thought all along that you had a wider
perpective
> of
> > potential prosperity to these poor areas than a grocery store and a
couple
> > of extra staff. So that's why these areas are suffering? Wow, you learn
> > something new every day!
> Don't be a twat JD..the density of local population affects every single
> business in the area, due to the knock-on effect of spending. Do I really
> have to explain this the the Business Master ?
Well, all you've managed so far is to provide an "assumption" on your part
that the English stock-up before coming over here
> Empty houses means reduced
> trade means no conservatory from local builder means no holiday from local
> travel firm
Which local travel firms and which areas are you referring to?
> means no beer at local pub means lower fees for local accountant
> means closure of local bank branch means lower take at local garage means
> ........it goes on and on and on. You are extremely fortunate in that
your
> business (evidently) does not depend on local spending in the same way as
> most, yet still you fail utterly to see this..
But people like you move out! That's the ultimate crime.
> > So the English media are ok all of a sudden are they?
> No - the Times were simply using the story to highlight GabI's treatment
at
> the hands of Labour, and in order to put Labour in a bad light they had to
> portray GabI as the underdog..
Same difference, so they're ok to convey your point all of a sudden?
> Or did they just so
> > happen to say a particular thing that pleases you? What's wrong with an
> easy
> > ride in the Country?
> I'm not interested in what's right or wrong for immigrants who want an
easy
> ride in the country, only in what's right or wrong for Wales..
That's a contradictory statement if I heard one. You've highlighted the
actions of the immigrants and yet you say that you're not interested in this
trend? incredible.
> That 30% can easily be accounted for by those who have married non-Welsh
> speakers and are living in a predominantly English-speaking area,
Aha! that;'s where you are totally wrong. The survey conducted included
parents that were both fluent in the welsh language. I was part of that
survey as it happens.
> > The lack of impartiality to an already unbiased and non-prejudicial free
> > market. If they won't feel any disgust, then no doubt the IWP are on to
a
> > winner? I'll bet for the contrary though.
> The boss of Eryri National Park was asked last night why he hadn't
> implemented the same measures we now see on the table from Exmoor and
> Pembroke. The answer "Because unlike Pembroke and Exmoor, we would have
> been accused of racism."
Well that's what your up against I'm afraid. Why spoil a good story?
> The free market is nowhere near as important to Welsh prosperity as is
Welsh
> Independence and the Welsh language.
The free market will be the determining factor of Welsh prosperity and not
the language. Incredible naivety seems ever so apparent on your part Blewyn.
> > Some of the Welsh will, just not in sufficient numbers to have any
> > significant impact.
> If a mainstream party put forward such proposals, they would receive a
> landslide victory.
Agains whom?
> > But you've implied that some people would be deterred from working
harder
> > because others around them have failed? Losers mentality? I quote you
> > again -
> > "But you think they should work hard, even though all their lives they
> have
> > seen people around them work hard and get nothing for it".
> Indeed, which is why the situation needs to be altered so that people can
> work and see tangible benefits from their work.
You mean an easy ride that I've constantly accused you with wanting?
> You slag off the people you
> see around you, but you don't imagine what the world looks like through
> their eyes.
I'm only slagging you off and mainly because you advocate the contrary to
your practice.
(snipped repeated material)
> > That's utter bollocks. I'm a million miles away from the exception.
You're
> > making it sound as an impossibility. Nothing could be further from the
> > truth.
> Evidence to the contrary is all around. The vast majority of current
owners
> are descendants of owners.
I'm not and many others are'nt. Even if they were, would'nt you consider
passing your business to you your offspring when you do eventually find
another use to your head instead of just rubbing it?
> > Neither do I. A level start as you suggest sounds pretty idylic and is a
> far
> > cry from reality, no matter where you are.
> Agreed, far too idealistic for today - but we shouldn't let that stop us
> from putting in place measures to increase Welsh ownership, to the
detriment
> of foreign 'investors'.
Us don't want to implement your ideals. Are you getting the message yet?
> > These foreign Companies have perhaps employed Welsh people for too long?
> > Perhaps it's time they moved out just to see if your kind take the
> > initiative the tenth time round? That's what's pathetic!
> Today's generation of Welsh people are very first to be brought up with
the
> right and proper expectation that they might actually be more than working
> class or academic fodder.
Grasp the nettle and get on with it then.
> You're not prepared to take any political steps whatsoever to improve
> commercial conditions for Welsh business, in the face of capital-rich
> English and multinational competition. Seems to me you place foreign
> business practices above the wellbeing of the Welsh people..
I'd rather continue with the working practical steps than listen to what you
suggest. Foreign business is business in it's own right. Money speaks in all
languages. Your blinkered approach is destined to stay on the drawing board
I'm afraid.
> Hang on, I thought you said you operated in a very competitive environment
?
> Which is it ?
A competitive market that's void of Welsh competition.
> No-all this harping on about your own achievements. You have managed to
> succeed in current conditions. Does this mean you don't want to see your
> children have it any easier ? Do you resent it when people have better
lives
> than you ?
No I'm glad to see the Welsh "llwyddiant" contrary to the envy you've
blatantly diplayed so far.
> > You just lack the ability to grasp the basics and waffle on regardless.
> Very
> > weak indeed. You fail to acknowledge the relevance between geographical
> > location and prosperity or the lack of it
> Geography is relevant in that it influences the behaviour of the free
> market. The purpose of government is to manage and limit the extreme
> influences of the free market. Where the free makret does not benefit a
> people, then they have every right to restrict it.
Again, I can't see Bill Gates opening an office in say Tudweiliog. Access
and remoteness means a hell of a lot and bearing that in mind you will no
doubt eventually realise this one day. No large Corporation in it's right
mind will choose a remote location for the sake of it.
> >
> > Jack Sais is the equivallent of Jack English. NO DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER!
>
> Ok, seeing as you're having difficulty, one more time, I said "screw what
> they want", not "screw them".
Any difference?, so you said "Screw what the English want"
> You should try them, you might learn some new words.
I doubt that
Blewyn
> > Income tax is paid centrally. NHS costs are paid locally. Older people
> > tend to have high usage of medical services, so the higher the
proportion
> of
> > auld codgers in the local population, the higher the NHS spending per
> head.
> > Ergo, English pensioners retiring to Wales are a drain on the economy.
>
> You'll be old yourself some day. Don't be so selfish.
Selfish ? Why the hell should working people in Wales pay for the medical
care of pensioners who have never contributed to the area ?
> > > Not missing any point. Without any comparison whatsoever, you can not
> > gauge
> > > any hardships.
>
> > Of course you can. Do you compare UK experience in the winter with that
> of
> > Moscow, and conclude that we shouldn't distibute extra coal to these
> > namby-pamby old people who don't know what cold is ? Welsh people
should
> > define their own goal by their own standards - believe me, the English
> don't
> > wait to see if it's OK with Wales before taking a decison to improve
their
> > lot !
>
> Here we go again. Moving the goalposts all the way to Moscow. The English
> don't have their own government. It's a Uk government
It is a government dominated by England. Whatever England wants, England
gets, and the best Wales can do is hope that England happens to choose
policies that also benefit Wales. 18 years of Tory rule should be enough to
demonstrate how English opinion completely swamps Welsh democracy.
> > > > Indeed ! That is precisely what should happen. Remove the rich
> foreign
> > > > competition and indigenous business will flourish.
>
> > > You can only remove the competition by competing against them. this is
> > what
> > > you and others are not prepared to do.
>
> > No - you can compete against them on their terms, or on your own. It's
> all
> > very easy for established concerns to turn around, once they have taken
> > advantage of an unjust and unfair system to simply acquire a critical
mass
> > of capital power, and say "OK we'll compete fairly with you now". The
> > Danish government supports its homegrown Maersk corporation in a variety
> of
> > industries (including retail) for this very reason, in order to ensure
> that
> > Danish spending recirculates within Denmark.
>
> You want the competition REMOVED. You can not compete against outsiders.
You
> should'nt enter the arena if you want to be pampered. what weakness!
Nonsense - removing the competition is just a different commercial tactic,
used in business every day of the week.
> > You've just got a huge chip on your shoulder about the fact that you've
> set
> > up your own company (in, by your own admission, an uncompetitve market)
> and
> > you don't want to see anyone else succeed without having to undergo the
> same
> > challenges and hardships as you did.
>
> You're the one with one massive anti-English chip on your shoulder mate
and
> you are of the "pig sick" type when someone else succeeds. I've never
> complained about hardships. LIAR!
I never said you complained about them - but you certainly don't want to see
other people in your area becoming prosperous without undergoing the same.
> > This is entirely a selfish reactionary
> > view and nothing to do with what's best for the future of Wales.
>
> Wales is'nt aligned with your train of thought. You're the selfish one
who's
> too weak to compete with the UK market.
Selfish ? In that I want Welsh people to benefit from self-determination and
ownership ? How would that benefit me ?
> > I want prosperity for Wales, and I don't really care how Wales acquires
> that
> > prosperity - and I certainly don't care if Welsh people acquire that
> > prosperity by political imposition.
>
> We all want prosperity for Wales. Your pathetic cuckoo land methods would
> create nothing other than Welsh businesses that would depend entirely on
> welsh only trade.
As I have repeatedly stated, we can all use both languages, so there's no
question of any 'welsh only' businesses, except through choice (a welsh-only
publishing house, for example).
> If you remove the English competition from Wales, they'll
> soon cease to do business with you and when you consider that the Welsh
> don't give a shit who they deal with, you're on to yet another loser.
You're ranting. You've already said that the lower price usually wins, no
matter what the language.
> You've
> first to convince the Welsh to buy only Welsh produce. The don't! You are
> that far away up your own arse you can't see it.
Not at all. Welsh produce has to be marketed and sold just like imports -
but a Welsh government would provide a focus for the public consciousness
and business through which Welsh produce could be more effectively sold.
Did you know that the UK government markets English and Welsh tourism
overseas with no distinction drawn between the two ? No mention of Wales as
a separate nation and culture ? No play made on the highly commercial
celtic slant on Wales ?
> > > Europe is open for business and competition is wide open and
> unrestricted.
> >
> > Nonsense. Plenty of markets and products are still restricted by
national
> > practice.
>
> Absolute bollocks. List them! or are you to go into mute mode again?
Champagne, Roquefort, French pop music, German novels, Italian movies,
Skiing, cars, the list goes on and on..
> > > You want the competition removed, so you can survive on as minimal an
> > effort
> > > as possible.
>
> > No - I want the unfair advantage of years and years of English
domination
> > through capital spending power removed, and I want to see Welsh spending
> > recirculated within the Welsh economy, not removed to English pockets.
>
> Bullshit. Previous accusation still stands. Since you want money removed
> from English pockets,
No, I want Welsh market power to be improved.
does this mean that you feel guilty when you receive
> money from American pockets in the form of your salary?
I pay for myself, and the salary I receive comes directly out of the profit
I have made for my company. This is how business works. Perhaps you see
yourself as a benign benefactor of your employees, deigning to give them
money for which they should be grateful ? The truth, of course, is that they
support you, not vice-versa.
> > I thought you meant political support. The Welsh people support these
> large
> > companies indeed, and the blame for many closures can be laid at the
feet
> of
> > short-sighted local businesses, but that doesn't alter the fact that the
> > current situation is unacceptable, that Welsh people deserve better.
> Unless
> > financial services and the stock exchange are relocated in Wales, the
> > situation will never change.
>
> Good enough of an admission to me that the Welsh play their role in
> supporting these large Corporations.
So you can see how these foreign corporations profit from Wales ?
> > > No, but can not in that particular instance present examples of
> hardships
> > > like you do from time to time that some English parts are flourishing
> > whilst
> > > Wales suffers. Can't have it both ways here Blewyn.
>
> > Yes I can. I can point out that the English-dominated government allows
> SE
> > England to flourish while Wales languishes, and I can point out that
Welsh
> > people should seek to improve the quality of life in Wales without
> reference
> > to English economic standards.
>
> Why should the government restrict the S.E. of Enland? they have superior
> access routes, near enough to Trevor McDonalds "The City" and nearer that
we
> are to the outside World. Prosperity just is't equal and geographic
location
> will play an important factor in this.
Because it is the purpose of government to manage the country as a whole,
for the good of the country as a whole, and not for the good of the 'haves'
only.
>You fail to mention that the cost of
> living in the S.E of England is much higher than it is in Wales.
This is a circular argument. House prices are higher because people earn
more, because that's where the wealth is, and the whole thing snowballs and
feeds itself.
> > > It does'nt and that's the whole naivety on your part. These large
> > companies
> > > employ Welsh people.
>
> > Yes, the same Welsh people who, in the 1950s and 60s, were largely
> employed
> > by and/or owned local retailers, now long gone.
>
> They've gone because "choice" came on the scene and prices came down.
Welsh
> people supported the changes so you can stop blaming anyone else. The new
> kids on the block were bigger and much better. All the same they employ
much
> larger numbers than your 1950-60's counterparts ever did.
Have you ever noticed how 'choice' disappears once a market has been
captured and barriers to entry are in place ? The government clearly
tolerates the supermarket oligarchy so long as they continue to compete
amongst each other and continue to offer variety and quality. This is fine
for the UK as a whole - but what it means for Wales is that money
continually leaks from the economy, slowing growth and reducing wealth.
> > You do understand that this employment is not a gift of the supermarket,
> > bestowed upon the grateful people by Lord Sainsbury and his ilk, but a
> > privilege they enjoy by local consent ?
>
> Same privilege they give in the form of product choice and employment to
the
> local people. Thank god someone took the initiative to take your kind out
of
> the dark ages. All we came up with was Kwiks.
Do you think that homegrown businesses performing this service are absent
because
a) they're all inbred and all they can do is play the banjo ?
b) barriers to entry are impossibly high and allowed to remain so by UK Plc
?
In this day and age, would it not be possible to implement a REAL
competitive system whereby produce is sold through locally-owned outlets
purchasing from producers electronically, transported by hauliers selling
haulage electronically and by the square foot ? Might end up being a bit
more expensive that the current system in money terms, but on a
macroeconomic level, would this lead to improved local economic growth,
resulting in lower costs in real terms ?
> > > Not once have you acknowledged this. I do believe that
> > > your naiveness would stretch to the extent that if these large
Companies
> > > were to register with Companies House in Cardiff instead of London,
> you'd
> > > believe that Wales would be better off.
>
> > Wales might be a tiny tiny bit better off, but no, I don't think that.
It
> > would take much more.
>
> There is no link in where you register your LTD or PLC for that matter
with
> local prosperity. No relevance whatsoever.
Except that to register somewhere, you have to have an office there...
> > > More relevance for prosperity would
> > > be biased towards the people directly working for their salaries than
> the
> > HQ
> > > of the relevant Company.
>
> > Economic diversity depends to a large degree on the availability of
> > disposable income over and above survival levels.
>
> Which your Sainsburys ilk example already provide us.
A clear example of the harm caused, on a macroeconomic level, by unfettered
market domination. The provincial salaries are all very low - the shop
managers being the only people who can really afford luxury goods and
services. The real salaries are all paid at head office, and it is the
locality of this office that benefits from Welsh consumer spending.
> > What I mean is, if you
> > want to have boat-builders, quality cafes and restaurants, independent
car
> > manufacturers, quality furniture makers etc etc in an area, then you
have
> to
> > have people who can afford to spend on luxury goods. These people - ie
> > those who are well paid - tend to work at centres of commerce, not
branch
> > offices. So if a company has wealth-generating operations in Wales but
> has
> > the main HQ in England, that means that profits generated in Wales
(money
> > from YOUR pocket) is used to pay for a costly overhead in England. Not
> only
> > that, but the salaries paid at HQ mean that English ancilliary services
> > prosper, while the only enterprises that prosper in Wales are those that
> the
> > working class can afford.
>
> The geographical HQ choice is the prerogative of the relevant Company and
> not yours. this area of commerce is where you nor any governments can
change
> beyond the provision of capital grants to lure them.
Exactly. A Welsh government would do this with a view to furthering Welsh
interests only. Increased use of the language in commerce would provide
further reason for mulitnationals to invest in Welsh skills and labour,
rather than simply assuming that everything can be run from one
English-based office.
> > > > Indeed I could probably do more in Wales - but the least I can do
from
> > > here
> > > > is post on this NG !
>
> > > Shame that will have an insignificant effect on the constitution.
>
> > Might, might not. You've heard of the Tokyo earthquake theory right ?
>
> Yes and a Volkswagon Golf is a Ford Fiesta on steroids!
??
> > > I've managed elsewhere for several years before this career. Managing
> > > someone elses business is a piece of cake compared to managing your
own.
What a stupid thing to say. Is running the manufacturing division of an
electronics company a piece of cake compared to running your own newspaper
shop ? It all depends what you're actually doing.
> > You obviously haven't worked in a sufficiently challenging business, or
> > aren't very good at managing your own.
>
> After everything I've answered to your questions, you deny my previous
> efforts as not even a challenge.
Well you said it yourself, that managing for someone else is a piece of cake
compared to running your own show. I see where you're coming from, because
starting your own business is a risk few shoulder, but as far as day-to-day
life is concerned what you say is simply not true. It depends entirely on
what you're actually doing.
> You failed here matey, I did'nt and I'll
> keep on reminding you everytime you give me reason. managing for someone
> else is a piece of cake especially when you can also manage to post so
much
> whilst being paid by your employers.
Like I said, I make the time.
> > > Not ranting in the least. You're losing your rag because you're
> questioned
> > > on your much limited commercial knowledge. Running your own does raise
> the
> > > validity of the argument and is not for you to question if that
business
> > has
> > > survived some considerable time and is successful. You have yet to do
> what
> > > many have and yet you are trully a man for all Seasons and subjects.
> > > Basically, you're becoming very frustrated yet again.
>
> > None of which counters my point that having experience does not absolve
> one
> > from having to put forward a reasoned and rational argument. "I'm
> > experienced so just do what I say" simply isn't an arguement.
>
> I'm having fun with you. Like Woody said to Buzz Lightyear, "you're a
child
> play thing"! having experience counts as everything.
Depends entirely what the experience was. Have you got 20 years experience,
or 1 years experience 20 times ?
> > > The absence of immagination is exactly what it takes to do what you
have
> > > done and left your Country for the English gravy train.
>
> > American and Scottish actually, but never mind. You obviously think
that
> my
> > employers (oilfield American company) are in the habit of giving their
> > employees and easy ride, and that you're the hard-working pioneer. I
> don't
> > suppose for one minute that you haven't worked hard, but in this respect
> > you're really no different to anyone else.
>
> Never said I was any different except for being actually supporting Wales
> which you have yet to do. You must be having an easy ride, you're
> practically glued to the newsgroup.
What can I say, it was a quiet week...
> > No point coming back to a country that hasn't the balls to stand up for
> > itself.
>
> That's better. I should frame that one! An absolute Gem!
Well, what have you got to say about it ?
> > > Tough titty! There will always be someone else with access to more
> Capital
> > > than you. Wake up to the real World.
> >
> > Haha doesn't take long to reach the limit of your reasoning ability does
> it
> > ?
>
> This is where you've run out yet again. It's called the real World, not
the
> World of sentiment which you're so accustomed with.
You have to think outside the box to succeed, as I'm sure you know. No
reason this can't be done on a national political level, as well as
commercially.
> > > The non-English speaker could'nt communicate within the UK. The
> non-Welsh
> > > speaker gets along just fine.
>
> > Except when they apply for jobs where Welsh is a required skill...
>
> Yes Blewyn, where the welsh language has been made the number one skill
> required by Local Authorities. Beyond the local Authority it seems you
need
> to adopt Plan "B". Scary eh?
Not at all. Making Welsh a required skill for jobs where official
communication is necessary is a cheap and effective way to strengthen the
language and impede English immigration.
> > > > > I'm competing against the English and the Welsh right now. I don't
> > need
> > > to
> > > > > disadvantage the competition. If anyone needs to do that, it's
best
> > that
> > > > > they remain working for someone else, instead of being permanently
> > > molley
> > > > > coddled in a false environment.
> >
> > Who said anything about 'permanent' ? Do you think then that American
> > companies are 'mollycoddled' because they are backed by the threat of
> > military action, in some industries ?
>
> Ah, so the molly coddle is a temporary measure?
Not at all. What you call 'molly coddle' is referred to by Blair and Bush
as 'protecting our interests', when they take measures to promote their
economies overseas. Protectionism is alive and well, and everybody's doing
it except the Welsh.
> > > You asked the question and I see what I previously expected when the
> > answer
> > > is given, SOUR GRAPES! Don't ask the question if the answer makes you
> pig
> > > sick!
>
> > Just pointing out your apparent inability to analyse the debate
> objectively,
> > without continuous and repetitive reference to your own situation and
> > circumstances.
>
> Objectively is where I'm struggling with you. You talk total bollocks.
> Speaking of your own experiences is better than speaking with no
experience
> whatsoever
Maybe, if that's all you can do. Personally, I think that speaking
objectively from an impartial point of view about what's best for all, is
the proper way to debate.
> > Haha you have NO idea what I've done so far, so you can shut yer hole on
> > that one right away. Your point about genetics is so utterly dumb that
it
> > beggars belief. Do you think that national character is all nature and
no
> > nurture ?
>
> Fuck all to Wales have you Blewyn?
Care to make that into a sentence that actually means something ?
> National character? i certainly do.
> Germany make the best cars, no matter what the make they produce. I do
> believe that certain areas have it more than others. So do you it seems,
> afterallyou did say about Wales -"No point coming back to a country that
> hasn't the balls to stand up for itself". The nature will ensure the
> nurture!
So you think that the Welsh people are inherently genetically predestined to
fail, and that nothing can be done about it ?
> > > Again, you've asked me a few questions which I've answered you. You
> appear
> > > disturbed by the same replies. I've said to you that I had no
advantages
> > > over say, what you had when you were here in Wales and ready for work.
> You
> > > mention able and also mention willing. Not willing to compete
> commercially
> > > is something I have no sympathy for. Hardly contempt. Little Capital
is
> > not
> > > ample reason to suggest the commercial unviablity of the potential
> > business
> > > person and I would dismiss that as a valid excuse as an inability.
> >
> > Try rewriting the above in either of the two languages we both
understand.
>
> Beyond your comprehension, clearly!
Zzzz..
> > > > Besides, what has the competitive behaviour of foreigners to do with
> the
> > > > Welsh ?
> > >
> > > I don't believe I'm reading this. You keep ranting on about the
> advantages
> > > that the foreign competition have time and time again over the Welsh
>
> > Doesn't mean the Welsh should organise themselves according to foreign
> > standards, does it ?
>
> No, just get organised with dealing with the rest of the World instead of
> adopting your inward looking measures.
We should look further inward than we currently do, of that there is no
doubt. Welsh people should care about what happens in Wales, not Manchester
and London, and Welsh people should do business with the greater world, not
just depend on UK trade.
> > No doubt you all mentally masturbate each other at the Yacht Club, away
> from
> > the rabble, while all around you roads get swept, fields get planted,
> > children are taught and patients are healed. Insurance Broking in
> > Caernarfon, well well there's a heroic contribution to the local
economy.
>
> He's employing Welsh people and yes dare I say it, more than you do. You
> really are flawed regardless of the angle Blewyn. You'll even criticise a
> business that employs Welsh people. You're a jealous little reject!
I must confess to a smidge of envy towards people who get to speak the
language every day, and live in their own culture. That doesn't alter the
fact that punting insurance to people is hardly an honourable activity, no
matter where it is done.
> > This is your world view of Wales : "I am a hero. All around me are
> > worthless undeserving failures. Best to get rid of them all."
>
> No no no, that's your inferiority complex getting the better of you whilst
> you fail to conceal it.
Is it ? OK, what is your view of Wales then ?
> > That's it. You don't express any further view on the subject - failing
> > utterly to recognise, for example, that growing a successfuly Welsh
> economy
> > would further your own company, whereas allowing wholesale foreign
> ownership
> > and domination of markets will one day surely lead to someone like Ted
> > Turner simply squashing you out like a fly, without a second thought.
>
> I'll be retired by then matey!
And your employees ? What of them ?
> > You've deliberately misunderstood the question yet again. Let me spell
it
> > out unequivocally :
>
> > Do you believe that any foreigner should be able to apply and acquire
> > employment in the UK for any private employer, in direct competition
with
> UK
> > citizens, with no restriction ?
>
> Ok, regardless of your relentless goalpost shifting, YES I do, because
> there's no legislation I can think of except for parts of Saudi Arabia
> whereby you can not, unless you take on a local senior in your business.
The
> World is practically open for business. Imports and exports show a healthy
> exchange in one way and Companies buy and sell to each other in another
way
> and you can practically set base anywhere. I totally agree witht this
trend.
You're just so unbelievably plain wrong,wrong,wrong it's not true. I deal
with international business daily, from the US to Indonesia to Angola to
Algeria, and take it from someone who actually does know, the World is NOT
one big free market. Many countries have agency legislation, prohibit
foreign ownership and we in the west simply do not allow economic
immigration. Do you think your company could compete with an Indian-staffed
competitor, for example ?
> > If you want to market a pop group in Italy, do you market them in
Italian,
> > or English ?
>
> Don't know and don't care. Not in the music industry. if I was I'd market
> them to incluse Italian because Italians speak Italian. In Wales they
speak
> English predominantly. Your point?
My point being that Italian CD revenues and profits are to some degree
protected from foreign domination by Anglo-Saxon multinationals by virtue of
the fact that the people like to buy songs in Italian.
> > > You're a dreamer. Welsh people are managing now. If it takes a
> linguistic
> > > barrier to achieve this success of yours, do you seriously think that
> this
> > > so-called vital criteria is all that's stopping them becoming
> prosperous?
> > If
> > > they depend on that Blewyn, I'm afraid they just don't have the heart
> nor
> > > the will.
>
> > No, the vital criteria is - as you allude to - is the common purpose and
> > will to build a nation of our own, which will stand on its own two feet
> and
> > will not allow other nations to simply profit from it and ridicule its
> > people.
>
> Yes, fair enough, a common pupose as you say. It's not a common purpose is
> it. You have a massive 80% speaking English only, a mere 20% speaking
Welsh
> and even 20% of them don't pass it onto their kids. It's never been
further
> from a common purpose has it? Plan "B" I'm afraid and time for you to
adopt
> a different approach to the failed ones.
The common purpose hasn't been put in place yet, that's all. It only has to
happen once.
> > Language is an essential factor in achieving the critical mass of
> > opinion required to make this happen.
>
> With no relevance whatsoever to prosperity. You really do need to wake up!
The language can bring prosperity, I've said this plenty of times.
> > They go across the border - to Chester, I presume - because the
> > Chester-based businesses know that they can locate there and capture
> > signifcant proportions of North Welsh shopping expenditure.
>
> That's right Blewyn and the Welsh do go there which is the relevant point
I
> made
A Welsh government would plan infrastructure in such a way as to benefit
Wales, not Chester. What if transport links were improved with Ireland, and
along the West coast ? It might pull trade from Bangor/Pwllheli that
otherwise goes to Chester, like you say.
> > National-run
> > business in North Wales may even close branches in Wales to maximise
> > profits, leaving people with no option but to shop in Chester.
>
> Quite possible. Who's fault is that, the Chester business or the Welsh
> people who shop there?
If there's no choice, there's no choice. The blame lies with the government
for letting it happen.
> > An improved N-S road and a proper N-S rail link in Wales would increase
> > trade within Wales, and has the potential to make Aberystwyth a retail
> > mecca,
>
> Come on Blewyn? Aberystwyth? It's another mid-Wales town that will serve
> it's immediate surroundings. look at the population per square mile.
people
> from Carnarfon, Bangor or Pwllheli won't bother in any significant numbers
> when a superior Chester choice is only an hour on the A55
Precisely. What if Aberystwyth was only an hour away ?
> >given that it already has a University and given that it is and ideal
> > spot for quality leisure business.
>
> I travel through Aberystwyth quite often and see nothing out of the
ordinary
> there worth more of a mention than any other Welsh Town. at present it's
> practically isolated with towns like Porthmadog Corris Machynlleth
Glandyfi,
> Fwrnais and Tal-Y-Bont. you mention rail I note, That's an absolute joke
and
> years from getting back on the rails.(No pun intended)
What do you mean ?
> > > Certainly not afraid of running a business in Wales am I? You are!
Like
> I
> > > said earlier, Wales never had control of these large Corporations.
>
> > And you don't want it to....Many people run small businesses in Wales,
so
> > what, it's domestic ownership or control of large-scale industry that
> > matters..
>
> It needed initiative much earlier to accomplish the scale you'd like to
see.
> You can not take control. You earn it. You can't just demand Manweb and
the
> likes becomes Welsh.
No but you can subsidise homegrown industry to compete, or nationalise.
Other countries do it all the time.
> > > Now lets get a couple of commercial facts straight here. They are
> > profiting
> > > from the welsh economy you say. Why did'nt you include that they may
> well
> > be
> > > employing Welsh people. They are in Wales and anyone that is in Wales
> and
> > > employed are doing more than you. Glass houses spring to mind!
>
> > I do believe the focus of the debate was Independence for Wales, not
> > whatever I might be doing or not doing...You say these people are
> 'employing
> > Welsh people', I say they are using a capital advantage to compete
against
> > Welsh business.
>
> There's no pleasing you Blewyn. They are employing Welsh people and
> Companies don't belong to the people except in the former communist
Worlds.
The government is elected by the people, and private companies operate by
popular consent through government control.
> > The most oft-quoted example - the working class family from SE England
> who,
> > through no industry of their own, have seen the value of their house
> inflate
> > way above the relative value of Welsh houses in recent years. They
sell,
> > move up and buy a pub or shop in Wales, so 'Y Goron' becomes'The Crown'
> etc
> > etc
>
> So what? the Welshman sells for the highest bid. Greedy Welshman gets his
> money and Jack Sais becomes the new kid on the block and you end up solely
> blaming the buyer and not the seller.
No, I blame the government that allow the situation to arise in the first
place. A Welsh government would promote Welsh interests so that situations
like this were less likely to arise.
> > What examples - not the tired old Norman Tebbit line again ?
>
> Tebbit? or the tired old "it's always Westminsters fault"?
Westminster rules. Can't have it both ways.
> > So YOU keep saying, but then I guess your motives are clear. Nothing to
> > gain from increased use of Welsh in the commercial sector..
>
> I've no motive. I'm just toying with you. Your kind will never be a
threat.
You mean the Welsh people ar a threat to your bottom line ?
> > The English have only ever permitted open competition when they were
> already
> > in a position of complete dominance, and have simply retained it ever
> since.
>
> Any particular dates spring to mind?
What do you mean dates ?
> > You evidently think I work for a gas-transporting compoany. I don't.
My
> > company isn't in Wales, and indeed, if we were, I absolutely think that
we
> > should be required to open a Welsh office.
>
> But the Company you work for should'nt be allowed in Wales if your
> philosophy was adopted.
Of course it would. Never said foreign competiton should be prohibited..
> > > English is more essential in Wales though. That goes without saying
> >
> > Depends what you want to do.
>
> 80% are managing just fine. I don't see the urgency in the hearts of the
> majority.
Ask them if they want to be more prosperous, and ask them whether they would
want to learn welsh if it could make them more prosperous.
> > See you failed to answer the point, a-g-a-i-n.
> > Do you think we should all learn German then ? Or perhaps we should
> simply
> > so not keep using British English, like whatever...
>
> It's an attempt at yet another pathetic analogy. Learn German for what?
I don't know. Reinstate the parts of my post that you snipped, and I'll
remember what I was on about and i'll tell you.
> > > I know, we're doing it. What a shame that you feel that the only way
you
> > > could compete in Wales is by introducing a communication medium with
> them
> > > that they can not understand.
>
> > Not the only way - but definetely a huge competitve advanteg in some
> areas.
> > You are aware that there are industries different to yours in Wales, yes
?
>
> So you've broadened your imagination all of a sudden? Please enlighten me.
> No Blewyn, my industry is the only one in existence in Wales!
Is this supposed to be an answer ?
> > > That's an adequate answer to me. I said it was not essential in Welsh
> > > commerce and it clearly remains so. Neither does anyone have to
justify
> to
> > > you or anyone else why the language is widely ignored in the
commercial
> > > sector.
>
> > The whole point is that Welsh people should make it essential, and turn
> the
> > situation to their own advantage.
>
> Back to square one with at least an admission that you feel that you need
to
> "MAKE" something essential due to failures to compete with the real World.
Nothing wrong with making something essential in order to create a demand -
it's a valid commercial tactic used every day. How do you think cigarette
makers turn a profit ?
> > The fact that an English speaker can get
> > a job in Caernarfon, thereby imposing English on their co-workers,
>
> No more of an imposition that what you are suggesting on the 80% of the
> current Welsh population. What a joke!
Of course the language policy towards employers could be regionalised within
Wales, not just rolled out as a whole in one go.
> > > A Language that is not essential does'nt bring prosperity, full stop!
> >
> > Bollocks. It can make a world of difference.
>
> Hey boss it's da plane again! Dream on or come up with something more
> credible.
Your failure to imagine the selling possibilities belies the uncompetitive
nature of your business, methinks.
> > > Ah I see! So the definition of your Welsh commerce is limited to Autie
> > > Gwen's local grocery? I thought all along that you had a wider
> perpective
> > of
> > > potential prosperity to these poor areas than a grocery store and a
> couple
> > > of extra staff. So that's why these areas are suffering? Wow, you
learn
> > > something new every day!
>
> > Don't be a twat JD..the density of local population affects every single
> > business in the area, due to the knock-on effect of spending. Do I
really
> > have to explain this the the Business Master ?
>
> Well, all you've managed so far is to provide an "assumption" on your part
> that the English stock-up before coming over here
That was just one factor, and one which any idiot can see is quite relevant.
When you go away for the weekend to a self-catering chalet or cottage, do
you stock up with your favourite things, or gamble on the local shops having
them ?
> > Empty houses means reduced
> > trade means no conservatory from local builder means no holiday from
local
> > travel firm
>
> Which local travel firms and which areas are you referring to?
Fucking hell are you completely dense ? The locally-owned travel agency that
gets no business this year because the builder can't afford a holiday...
> > means no beer at local pub means lower fees for local accountant
> > means closure of local bank branch means lower take at local garage
means
> > ........it goes on and on and on. You are extremely fortunate in that
> your
> > business (evidently) does not depend on local spending in the same way
as
> > most, yet still you fail utterly to see this..
>
> But people like you move out! That's the ultimate crime.
People like me move out because we have no money to put in to the local
economy. If people could be confident that a Welsh government was looking
after Wales, that their businesses could not simply be underpriced with
loss-leaders until their market is captured, then perhaps more would stick
around.
> > > So the English media are ok all of a sudden are they?
>
> > No - the Times were simply using the story to highlight GabI's treatment
> at
> > the hands of Labour, and in order to put Labour in a bad light they had
to
> > portray GabI as the underdog..
>
> Same difference, so they're ok to convey your point all of a sudden?
What do you mean, exactly ?
> > Or did they just so
> > > happen to say a particular thing that pleases you? What's wrong with
an
> > easy
> > > ride in the Country?
>
> > I'm not interested in what's right or wrong for immigrants who want an
> easy
> > ride in the country, only in what's right or wrong for Wales..
>
> That's a contradictory statement if I heard one. You've highlighted the
> actions of the immigrants and yet you say that you're not interested in
this
> trend? incredible.
You're not making sense. I'm interested in what's good for the people of
Wales, not what's good for immigrants after an easy life.
> > That 30% can easily be accounted for by those who have married
non-Welsh
> > speakers and are living in a predominantly English-speaking area,
>
> Aha! that;'s where you are totally wrong. The survey conducted included
> parents that were both fluent in the welsh language. I was part of that
> survey as it happens.
Hmm...you've got me. Savour the moment, it won't happen often.
> > > The lack of impartiality to an already unbiased and non-prejudicial
free
> > > market. If they won't feel any disgust, then no doubt the IWP are on
to
> a
> > > winner? I'll bet for the contrary though.
>
> > The boss of Eryri National Park was asked last night why he hadn't
> > implemented the same measures we now see on the table from Exmoor and
> > Pembroke. The answer "Because unlike Pembroke and Exmoor, we would have
> > been accused of racism."
>
> Well that's what your up against I'm afraid. Why spoil a good story?
So you're saying it's right and proper that the English media should dictate
Welsh policy ?
> > The free market is nowhere near as important to Welsh prosperity as is
> Welsh
> > Independence and the Welsh language.
>
> The free market will be the determining factor of Welsh prosperity and not
> the language. Incredible naivety seems ever so apparent on your part
Blewyn.
The language can help build a nation. The free market will simply destroy
Wales.
> > > Some of the Welsh will, just not in sufficient numbers to have any
> > > significant impact.
>
> > If a mainstream party put forward such proposals, they would receive a
> > landslide victory.
>
> Agains whom?
The other mainstream party, of course.
> > > But you've implied that some people would be deterred from working
> harder
> > > because others around them have failed? Losers mentality? I quote you
> > > again -
>
> > > "But you think they should work hard, even though all their lives they
> > have
> > > seen people around them work hard and get nothing for it".
>
> > Indeed, which is why the situation needs to be altered so that people
can
> > work and see tangible benefits from their work.
>
> You mean an easy ride that I've constantly accused you with wanting?
No, just a levelling of the playing field.
> > You slag off the people you
> > see around you, but you don't imagine what the world looks like through
> > their eyes.
>
> I'm only slagging you off and mainly because you advocate the contrary to
> your practice.
None of the things I advocate would benefit me..
> > That's utter bollocks. I'm a million miles away from the exception.
> You're
> > > making it sound as an impossibility. Nothing could be further from the
> > > truth.
>
> > Evidence to the contrary is all around. The vast majority of current
> owners
> > are descendants of owners.
>
> I'm not and many others are'nt. Even if they were, would'nt you consider
> passing your business to you your offspring when you do eventually find
> another use to your head instead of just rubbing it?
Like I said, the majority of owners are descendants of owners.
> > > Neither do I. A level start as you suggest sounds pretty idylic and is
a
> > far
> > > cry from reality, no matter where you are.
>
> > Agreed, far too idealistic for today - but we shouldn't let that stop us
> > from putting in place measures to increase Welsh ownership, to the
> detriment
> > of foreign 'investors'.
>
> Us don't want to implement your ideals. Are you getting the message yet?
No, YOU don't want to work towards any ideals, because you're doing OK under
the current system. For most of Wales, this just isn't the case.
> > > These foreign Companies have perhaps employed Welsh people for too
long?
> > > Perhaps it's time they moved out just to see if your kind take the
> > > initiative the tenth time round? That's what's pathetic!
>
> > Today's generation of Welsh people are very first to be brought up with
> the
> > right and proper expectation that they might actually be more than
working
> > class or academic fodder.
>
> Grasp the nettle and get on with it then.
What is that, an argument ? What are you saying ?
> > You're not prepared to take any political steps whatsoever to improve
> > commercial conditions for Welsh business, in the face of capital-rich
> > English and multinational competition. Seems to me you place foreign
> > business practices above the wellbeing of the Welsh people..
>
> I'd rather continue with the working practical steps than listen to what
you
> suggest. Foreign business is business in it's own right. Money speaks in
all
> languages. Your blinkered approach is destined to stay on the drawing
board
> I'm afraid.
Yes, but you've made no justifying argument for this, commercial or
otherwise..
> > Hang on, I thought you said you operated in a very competitive
environment
> ?
> > Which is it ?
>
> A competitive market that's void of Welsh competition.
Haha you mean you have a monopoly but there are no barriers to entry...So
your heroic struggle to compete is more fairly described as 'getting away
with it..', no ?
> > No-all this harping on about your own achievements. You have managed to
> > succeed in current conditions. Does this mean you don't want to see
your
> > children have it any easier ? Do you resent it when people have better
> lives
> > than you ?
>
> No I'm glad to see the Welsh "llwyddiant" contrary to the envy you've
> blatantly diplayed so far.
What envy ? I'm doing OK thanks. If you're glad to see llwyddiant, why
don't you agree with taking political steps to increase it ?
> > > You just lack the ability to grasp the basics and waffle on
regardless.
> > Very
> > > weak indeed. You fail to acknowledge the relevance between
geographical
> > > location and prosperity or the lack of it
>
> > Geography is relevant in that it influences the behaviour of the free
> > market. The purpose of government is to manage and limit the extreme
> > influences of the free market. Where the free makret does not benefit a
> > people, then they have every right to restrict it.
>
> Again, I can't see Bill Gates opening an office in say Tudweiliog.
No, but he might employ a translator or two in Cardiff if we all started
using Office with Welsh menus and dialogs ?
>Access
> and remoteness means a hell of a lot and bearing that in mind you will no
> doubt eventually realise this one day. No large Corporation in it's right
> mind will choose a remote location for the sake of it.
Of course. This goes back to my point about the role of government.
Blewyn
Jimmy Daniels
Blewyn <ble...@nospampleasebtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a5bg0p$hve$1...@paris.btinternet.com...
> "Jimmy Daniels" <Jimmy Dan...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:biXa8.53099$as2.8...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > You'll be old yourself some day. Don't be so selfish.
> Selfish ? Why the hell should working people in Wales pay for the medical
> care of pensioners who have never contributed to the area ?
The NHS funding does not come from the PAYE contributions of the locality
alone. Ysbyty Gwynedd for example does not find it's funding from Gwynedd
alone. The pensioners have paid their taxes throughout their lives and
what's more, should Welsh people that have retired in England be denied
health care over there?
> > Here we go again. Moving the goalposts all the way to Moscow. The
English
> > don't have their own government. It's a Uk government
> It is a government dominated by England. Whatever England wants, England
> gets, and the best Wales can do is hope that England happens to choose
> policies that also benefit Wales.
That's utter bullshit. England does'nt just get what England wants. You've
only to look at lasts weeks NHS league tables to discover that Wales were
not amongst the UK's worst performers. It's a UK government whether you like
it or not.
>18 years of Tory rule should be enough to
> demonstrate how English opinion completely swamps Welsh democracy.
18 years of Tory rule undoubtedly showed some excellent examples of how not
do things as any government would after such a lengthy term in office. As
for their privatisation concepts, I think it brought the UK out of a Third
World status to being able to compete with the Global market and they
demonstrated without doubt that they knew a hell of a lot more about
business affairs than any other previous government you could mention.
> Nonsense - removing the competition is just a different commercial tactic,
> used in business every day of the week.
That's what I just said. you want the competition removed! And moreso, it
appears you are more than willing to allow the likes of your American Oil
Company access to Welsh commerce. Any of these "tacticts" applicable to
them?
> I never said you complained about them - but you certainly don't want to
see
> other people in your area becoming prosperous without undergoing the same.
What are you ranting on about then?. I never claimed to have undergone
hardships. When did I say that I did'nt want anyone else to prosper unless
they undergo my experiences?
> Selfish ? In that I want Welsh people to benefit from self-determination
and
> ownership ? How would that benefit me ?
No not selfinsh in that sense. Stop try to wriggle out of it. selfish in the
sense that you want to deny competition in an already competitive
environment in order that the least competitive by nature have an easy ride.
If you can't compete with anyone beyond your back yard, there goes a very
limited environment for you to deal with.
> As I have repeatedly stated, we can all use both languages, so there's no
> question of any 'welsh only' businesses, except through choice (a
welsh-only
> publishing house, for example).
Use both languages!! In your statement below, you advocate that the
non-Welsh speaker loses his salary if they fail to learn Welsh in six
months. Which businesses are you referring to Blewyn? Which businesses are
these that people are "expected" to be able to speak Welsh? All of them or
just businesses that are within the predominantly existing Welsh speaking
areas? Even these areas only have such demands in small pockets. I know of
even businesses in Pwllheli and Caernarfon that have proprietors that don't
speak a word of Welsh, yet they get by ok.
"Yn ogystal a hyn, 'tydw i'n gweld dim o'i le efo mynnu fod gweithwyr mewn
swyddi lle bydd disgwyl arnynt i gyfathrebu efo Cymry Cymraeg yn medru'r
Gymraeg, neu yn ei ddysgu (neu golli cyfran o gyflog) o fewn 6 mis."
> You're ranting. You've already said that the lower price usually wins, no
> matter what the language.
Well there goes your Welsh unity and loyalty. All the way to the wallet!
> > You've
> > first to convince the Welsh to buy only Welsh produce. The don't! You
are
> > that far away up your own arse you can't see it.
> Not at all. Welsh produce has to be marketed and sold just like imports -
> but a Welsh government would provide a focus for the public consciousness
> and business through which Welsh produce could be more effectively sold.
You still need to convert the Welsh consumer not will they need to change
their ways and spend within Wales, but that they also have more choice and
keener prices within their own environment.
> Did you know that the UK government markets English and Welsh tourism
> overseas with no distinction drawn between the two ?
Whilst they remain part and parcel of the UK why should they?
>No mention of Wales as
> a separate nation and culture ?
Looking at the oevrall picture of the Welsh, where's the difference in
Culture? Language is hardly an appropriate example since only 20% speak it
and as for the remainder, they read the same material as the rest of the UK
do and watch the same programmes as the rest of the UK do. Different
culture? Very little worth a mention
> > Absolute bollocks. List them! or are you to go into mute mode again?
> Champagne, Roquefort, French pop music, German novels, Italian movies,
> Skiing, cars, the list goes on and on..
Champagne? How can you call anything less than Champagne Champagne? French
pop? etc.. You've just listed bespoke areas of commerce appropriate to
relevant Countries.
> > Bullshit. Previous accusation still stands. Since you want money removed
> > from English pockets,
>
> No, I want Welsh market power to be improved.
Bullshit again. you've stated that you do not want to see Welsh money going
into English pockets
> does this mean that you feel guilty when you receive
> > money from American pockets in the form of your salary?
> I pay for myself, and the salary I receive comes directly out of the
profit
> I have made for my company. This is how business works.
But this philosophy of yours is no different to what any employee could say
about their job and how their salary comes about.
>Perhaps you see
> yourself as a benign benefactor of your employees, deigning to give them
> money for which they should be grateful ?
Not at all. their obligation is to complete their obligations which they
have agreed upon. My obligation is to ensure that they receive what they
have agreed in return. No gratitude expected despite that they are employed
and not left on the unemployed list as a burden to the working.
>he truth, of course, is that they
> support you, not vice-versa.
So I don't pay them. Is this what you are suggesting? what's this "support"
crap? Anything short of not dishing out the Company profits out to them at
the end of the year? Dreamer!
> > Good enough of an admission to me that the Welsh play their role in
> > supporting these large Corporations.
> So you can see how these foreign corporations profit from Wales ?
No more than I see how you profit in England. what's the problem with that?
Are you suggesting that foreign Corporations should provide free products to
the Welsh for this privelage of being here?
> > Why should the government restrict the S.E. of Enland? they have
superior
> > access routes, near enough to Trevor McDonalds "The City" and nearer
that
> we
> > are to the outside World. Prosperity just is't equal and geographic
> location
> > will play an important factor in this.
> Because it is the purpose of government to manage the country as a whole,
> for the good of the country as a whole, and not for the good of the
'haves'
> only.
But the "haves" and "have nots" will always exist. There will inevitably be
differences in for example the initiator of a Company and it's employees. It
will become blatantly apparent with the MD driving his Merc whilst the
employee may well be driving his Ford Focus. I would presume you see this as
unjust as well do you?
> >You fail to mention that the cost of
> > living in the S.E of England is much higher than it is in Wales.
> This is a circular argument. House prices are higher because people earn
> more, because that's where the wealth is, and the whole thing snowballs
and
> feeds itself.
Well there you go! All relative.
> > They've gone because "choice" came on the scene and prices came down.
> Welsh
> > people supported the changes so you can stop blaming anyone else. The
new
> > kids on the block were bigger and much better. All the same they employ
> much
> > larger numbers than your 1950-60's counterparts ever did.
> Have you ever noticed how 'choice' disappears once a market has been
> captured and barriers to entry are in place ?
Yes I have heard of this fear before. except that I've never seen it. I see
more choice now that I've ever seen.
>the government clearly
> tolerates the supermarket oligarchy so long as they continue to compete
> amongst each other and continue to offer variety and quality. This is
fine
> for the UK as a whole - but what it means for Wales is that money
> continually leaks from the economy, slowing growth and reducing wealth.
It provides employment to quantities that you could'nt find an alternative
for though
> Do you think that homegrown businesses performing this service are absent
> because
> a) they're all inbred and all they can do is play the banjo ?
No, there has been a market all along and it was'nt the Welsh who grasped
the nettle.
> b) barriers to entry are impossibly high and allowed to remain so by UK
Plc
> ?
Bar capital outlay, what are you ranting on about?
> In this day and age, would it not be possible to implement a REAL
> competitive system whereby produce is sold through locally-owned outlets
> purchasing from producers electronically, transported by hauliers selling
> haulage electronically and by the square foot ?
>Might end up being a bit
> more expensive that the current system in money terms, but on a
> macroeconomic level, would this lead to improved local economic growth,
> resulting in lower costs in real terms ?
Well if you are to seriously believe that the Welsh would unanimously
support such, perhaps so. Again you are advocating home grown only. what
about exports that is so vital, do you cease to practice such? And if so,
what about imports, do you cease to do this as well?
> > There is no link in where you register your LTD or PLC for that matter
> with
> > local prosperity. No relevance whatsoever.
> Except that to register somewhere, you have to have an office there...
No you don't. I know of many Welsh Companies that have registered in London
instead of Cardiff's Companies House. Many have for example dropped their
Cyf and became officially Ltd instead, for the sake of being recognised as
"Limited" by everyone in Wales and beyond.
> A clear example of the harm caused, on a macroeconomic level, by
unfettered
> market domination. The provincial salaries are all very low - the shop
> managers being the only people who can really afford luxury goods and
> services. The real salaries are all paid at head office, and it is the
> locality of this office that benefits from Welsh consumer spending.
Bullshit! Without the likes of these businesses, places like your former
Caernarfon would be without Tesco, Safeway, Iceland etc.. it's all very well
ranting on about consumer spending alone and not even a mention that without
these stores, Caernarfon and the like would become worse for wear in their
absence
> Exactly. A Welsh government would do this with a view to furthering Welsh
> interests only. Increased use of the language in commerce would provide
> further reason for mulitnationals to invest in Welsh skills and labour,
> rather than simply assuming that everything can be run from one
> English-based office.
Well please explain once and for all, how this linguistic thing of yours
brings prosperity. Come on, present your clear-cut case!
> What a stupid thing to say. Is running the manufacturing division of an
> electronics company a piece of cake compared to running your own newspaper
> shop ? It all depends what you're actually doing.
It was meant as like for like Blewyn. Take a tyre service as an example. Are
you telling me you can compare thelikes of an ATS manager with the
proprietor of say Teiars Gwynedd and tell me there is no difference.
> Well you said it yourself, that managing for someone else is a piece of
cake
> compared to running your own show. I see where you're coming from,
because
> starting your own business is a risk few shoulder, but as far as
day-to-day
> life is concerned what you say is simply not true. It depends entirely on
> what you're actually doing.
I've just said that.
> Depends entirely what the experience was. Have you got 20 years
experience,
> or 1 years experience 20 times ?
Since even a single day hugely differs to another. It's 20 years of
experience. The latter would be more applicable to a Council post.
> > > No point coming back to a country that hasn't the balls to stand up
for
> > > itself.
> > That's better. I should frame that one! An absolute Gem!
> Well, what have you got to say about it ?
It's an absolute Gem and testimony of your view of Wales and it's people.
> Not at all. Making Welsh a required skill for jobs where official
> communication is necessary is a cheap and effective way to strengthen the
> language and impede English immigration.
The English have no desire to impede your immigration to East Anglia do
they?
> Not at all. What you call 'molly coddle' is referred to by Blair and Bush
> as 'protecting our interests', when they take measures to promote their
> economies overseas. Protectionism is alive and well, and everybody's
doing
> it except the Welsh.
But your molly coddle includes steps to restrict the non-Welsh speaker. As
for everyone doing it except the Welsh, you well need to face the reality of
what is the real Welsh culture today.
> Maybe, if that's all you can do. Personally, I think that speaking
> objectively from an impartial point of view about what's best for all, is
> the proper way to debate.
But "us all" does'nt include you, nor does it have any genuine sense of
including the 80% of welsh people that don't speak your language.
> > Fuck all to Wales have you Blewyn?
> Care to make that into a sentence that actually means something ?
I can only repeat the fact that I've stated.
> So you think that the Welsh people are inherently genetically predestined
to
> fail, and that nothing can be done about it ?
Well according to you, they lack the balls do they not?
> We should look further inward than we currently do, of that there is no
> doubt.
If you'll look further inward, you'll deny the carrers of many in the
endoscopy units right across Wales!
>Welsh people should care about what happens in Wales, not Manchester
> and London, and Welsh people should do business with the greater world,
not
> just depend on UK trade.
Ah, that's more like it, Exclude Manchester, London and all the Other
English areas and yet take note of the rest of the World. Makes a lot of
sense at least in your profile composition.
> I must confess to a smidge of envy towards people who get to speak the
> language every day, and live in their own culture. That doesn't alter the
> fact that punting insurance to people is hardly an honourable activity, no
> matter where it is done.
So you are making more of a contribution to Wales than this Insurance Broker
that's employing fifteen or so Welsh people in Caernarfon are you?
> Is it ? OK, what is your view of Wales then ?
The people don't differ in the bone to anywhere else except that we are a
relatively passive Nation. If Wales were ever to be presented with a
situation whereby they receive no further subsidy, that passive nature would
have to become one of assertiveness which I doubt exists in not only in
enough quantity but in enough of a sense of this unity that you are
fantasising so much about.
> > I'll be retired by then matey!
> And your employees ? What of them ?
Still working? I don't know. Sorry, do I have an obligation after
retirement? or is retirement something that you would prohibit?
> You're just so unbelievably plain wrong,wrong,wrong it's not true. I deal
> with international business daily, from the US to Indonesia to Angola to
> Algeria, and take it from someone who actually does know, the World is NOT
> one big free market. Many countries have agency legislation, prohibit
> foreign ownership and we in the west simply do not allow economic
> immigration. Do you think your company could compete with an
Indian-staffed
> competitor, for example ?
List the Countries!
> My point being that Italian CD revenues and profits are to some degree
> protected from foreign domination by Anglo-Saxon multinationals by virtue
of
> the fact that the people like to buy songs in Italian.
They have the mafia and you want a Taffia.
> The common purpose hasn't been put in place yet, that's all. It only has
to
> happen once.
You can't even dream surely of getting the 80% majority to agree with you?
> The language can bring prosperity, I've said this plenty of times.
Said it many times you have, except you have yet to present your examples.
I'm working in Wales and I've said many times, it makes no difference
whatsoever
> A Welsh government would plan infrastructure in such a way as to benefit
> Wales, not Chester. What if transport links were improved with Ireland,
and
> along the West coast ? It might pull trade from Bangor/Pwllheli that
> otherwise goes to Chester, like you say.
But you still have to cling onto the hope that Welsh people will stay and
shop at home. they wo'nt
> > Quite possible. Who's fault is that, the Chester business or the Welsh
> > people who shop there?
> If there's no choice, there's no choice. The blame lies with the
government
> for letting it happen.
So the Welsh chester shoppers are'nt to be blamed for anything? It's
Westminster's fault again is it? pathetic!
> Precisely. What if Aberystwyth was only an hour away ?
It would be A.N. other place to go to. Bar the University, I could't see any
reason for anyone from say Gwynedd wanting to go there
> > I travel through Aberystwyth quite often and see nothing out of the
> ordinary
> > there worth more of a mention than any other Welsh Town. at present it's
> > practically isolated with towns like Porthmadog Corris Machynlleth
> Glandyfi,
> > Fwrnais and Tal-Y-Bont. you mention rail I note, That's an absolute joke
> and
> > years from getting back on the rails.(No pun intended)
>
> What do you mean ?
It has nothing currently going for it. What next Llanllwni?
> No but you can subsidise homegrown industry to compete, or nationalise.
> Other countries do it all the time.
Nationalised industry is dead and buried Blewyn. Not only is the NHS
steering towards becoming eventually entirely private, I reckon even Local
Authorities will eventually become entirely managed by the private sector.
You're going the other way.
> The government is elected by the people, and private companies operate by
> popular consent through government control.
Bollocks! Beyond the obligations of the HSE, the PAYE, NI, VAT and
registration, goverment effect is pretty minimal. Hardly control. If a
private sector businessman wants to work 20 hours a day, he can and without
any government or Union interference. If the same businessman wants to go to
the Caribbean for six months every year, again the government can not
intervene. The same could not be said for the government employee within the
public sector. You said Control? What a joke! It's the private sector that
runs this Country matey and not the other way round.
> > So what? the Welshman sells for the highest bid. Greedy Welshman gets
his
> > money and Jack Sais becomes the new kid on the block and you end up
solely
> > blaming the buyer and not the seller.
> No, I blame the government that allow the situation to arise in the first
> place. A Welsh government would promote Welsh interests so that
situations
> like this were less likely to arise.
Ah, I see, so the greedy Welshman who sells to the highest bidder is'nt part
and parcel of the problem? How convenient and how pathetic.
> You mean the Welsh people ar a threat to your bottom line ?
Not in the slightest. Like I've said the real competition derives from
otside Wales.
have only ever permitted open competition when they were
> > already
> > > in a position of complete dominance, and have simply retained it ever
> > since.
> >
> > Any particular dates spring to mind?
> What do you mean dates ?
When did all this trend of yours have effect?
> > But the Company you work for should'nt be allowed in Wales if your
> > philosophy was adopted.
> Of course it would. Never said foreign competiton should be prohibited..
Did'nt you? So you accept that any foreign Company are welcome in Wales?
> > 80% are managing just fine. I don't see the urgency in the hearts of the
> > majority.
> Ask them if they want to be more prosperous, and ask them whether they
would
> want to learn welsh if it could make them more prosperous.
They would undoubtedly declare that they would like to be more prosperous.
How would learning Welsh increase their prosperity? Do remember that you are
now addressing the 80% Que!
> Nothing wrong with making something essential in order to create a
demand -
> it's a valid commercial tactic used every day. How do you think cigarette
> makers turn a profit ?
Now this has to be one of your worst Waffle examples - "Making something
essential in order to create a demand"!
> > No more of an imposition that what you are suggesting on the 80% of the
> > current Welsh population. What a joke!
> Of course the language policy towards employers could be regionalised
within
> Wales, not just rolled out as a whole in one go.
But you've yet to adopt a policy for the private sector and you need to have
the agreement of the private sector. No mandotary policy will ever be
implemented unless more people think like you do. But we are just talking
about bits of Wales it seems. I could just see places like Cardiff giving
your ideas a welcoming response!
> > Well, all you've managed so far is to provide an "assumption" on your
part
> > that the English stock-up before coming over here
> That was just one factor, and one which any idiot can see is quite
relevant.
> When you go away for the weekend to a self-catering chalet or cottage, do
> you stock up with your favourite things, or gamble on the local shops
having
> them ?
Again, you are repeating yourself about Auntie Gwen's local store
significance and yet you belittle the efforts of a Caernarfon Insurance
Broker? I would'nt gamble on Places like a Tudweiliog store having anything
more than 1970 stock to be honest. And even most shops in these rural areas
have jumped on the "SPAR" bandwagon. there's initiative for you!
> > Which local travel firms and which areas are you referring to?
> Fucking hell are you completely dense ? The locally-owned travel agency
that
> gets no business this year because the builder can't afford a holiday...
Stuck in a corner again! Come on, you said local Travel Firms, which ones
and in which areas suffer because of the effects of Inmigration? LIST THEM!
> People like me move out because we have no money to put in to the local
> economy.
People like you take one look at the job scene and fuck off.
If people could be confident that a Welsh government was looking
> after Wales, that their businesses could not simply be underpriced with
> loss-leaders until their market is captured, then perhaps more would stick
> around.
Chzzzzzzz!
> > > I'm not interested in what's right or wrong for immigrants who want an
> > easy
> > > ride in the country, only in what's right or wrong for Wales..
> > That's a contradictory statement if I heard one. You've highlighted the
> > actions of the immigrants and yet you say that you're not interested in
> this
> > trend? incredible.
> You're not making sense. I'm interested in what's good for the people of
> Wales, not what's good for immigrants after an easy life.
Making plenty of sense matey. Read it again
> > Aha! that;'s where you are totally wrong. The survey conducted included
> > parents that were both fluent in the welsh language. I was part of that
> > survey as it happens.
>
> Hmm...you've got me. Savour the moment, it won't happen often.
It's a common pattern though Blewyn. Hardly anything out of the ordinary
worth savouring. I would'nt have an orgasm in winning one over you.
> > Well that's what your up against I'm afraid. Why spoil a good story?
> So you're saying it's right and proper that the English media should
dictate
> Welsh policy ?
People read what they want. There's no hope of media censorship. Previous
calls for such have failed miserably.
> The language can help build a nation. The free market will simply
destroy
> Wales.
That's an absolute myth. Not even the Welsh speaking community share that
philosophy and pull together. The free market however is on a Global scale.
> > You mean an easy ride that I've constantly accused you with wanting?
> No, just a levelling of the playing field.
But the initiatives are'nt even level. You've already conceded that the
Welsh lack the initiative and balls
> > I'm only slagging you off and mainly because you advocate the contrary
to
> > your practice.
> None of the things I advocate would benefit me..
That's irrelevant. I'm merely highlighting your sheer hypocricy time and
time again.
> > I'm not and many others are'nt. Even if they were, would'nt you consider
> > passing your business to you your offspring when you do eventually find
> > another use to your head instead of just rubbing it?
> Like I said, the majority of owners are descendants of owners.
Many yes, majority, I doubt it. Anyway it's further testimony of Welsh
initiative if it takes as many as you suggest to depend on being handed down
businesses.
> No, YOU don't want to work towards any ideals, because you're doing OK
under
> the current system. For most of Wales, this just isn't the case.
What you've presented to date is contradictory to existing Welsh businesses
and the fact that you are more than ready to contradict the interests of the
businesses of the 80%, it speaks volumes.
> > Grasp the nettle and get on with it then.
> What is that, an argument ? What are you saying ?
Stop ranting and take some purposeful action instead.
> > I'd rather continue with the working practical steps than listen to what
> you
> > suggest. Foreign business is business in it's own right. Money speaks in
> all
> > languages. Your blinkered approach is destined to stay on the drawing
> board
> > I'm afraid.
> Yes, but you've made no justifying argument for this, commercial or
> otherwise..
Some considerable time ago. You've yet to present your argument whereby it
makes any commercial sense whatsoever.
> > A competitive market that's void of Welsh competition.
> Haha you mean you have a monopoly but there are no barriers to entry...So
> your heroic struggle to compete is more fairly described as 'getting away
> with it..', no ?
Not at all and since you are a little on the dim side to say the least, I've
also said that I depend on the Englsih market as well have I not? That is
the real competitive side of the coin. Wales is the easiest to compete.
Shame the likes of you leave without realising that!
> > No I'm glad to see the Welsh "llwyddiant" contrary to the envy you've
> > blatantly diplayed so far.
> What envy ? I'm doing OK thanks. If you're glad to see llwyddiant, why
> don't you agree with taking political steps to increase it ?
I do. You've simply no credible alternative worth considering. You are naive
enough to suggest that the Welsh Dragon shits pound coins.
> > Again, I can't see Bill Gates opening an office in say Tudweiliog.
> No, but he might employ a translator or two in Cardiff if we all started
> using Office with Welsh menus and dialogs ?
What for? Why tranlate to people who would understand him and his SOFTWARE
anyway? For the sake of it eh? What priorities you have? Absolutely
unbelieveable!
> >Access
> > and remoteness means a hell of a lot and bearing that in mind you will
no
> > doubt eventually realise this one day. No large Corporation in it's
right
> > mind will choose a remote location for the sake of it.
>
> Of course. This goes back to my point about the role of government.
And for certain people to face some harsh realities that they may well live
in the geographical areas bespokely designed for the have nots.