Who do we report to between priests?
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Dave Clayton
Apr 13, 2012, 7:29:11 PM4/13/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Our priest at St Patrick's will be leaving 31 May, 2012. We may be
using supply priests for an indefinite period. My priest and I thought
my ministry as a verger would provide stability in our liturgy since
we expect to change priests every three years. However a new priest
will probably not be in place on 1 June. Our understanding was that I
served
at the pleasure of my priest. With no priest-in-charge in place, to
whom do I report? The senior warden? Surely a verger is especially
important during a period of having supply priests. As an aside, I am
also a vestryman, charged with overseeing our worship committee with
our priest. Any observations or comments?
David Clayton,
Somerset, KY
using supply priests for an indefinite period. My priest and I thought
my ministry as a verger would provide stability in our liturgy since
we expect to change priests every three years. However a new priest
will probably not be in place on 1 June. Our understanding was that I
served
at the pleasure of my priest. With no priest-in-charge in place, to
whom do I report? The senior warden? Surely a verger is especially
important during a period of having supply priests. As an aside, I am
also a vestryman, charged with overseeing our worship committee with
our priest. Any observations or comments?
David Clayton,
Somerset, KY
Katherine Pendzuk
Apr 13, 2012, 7:48:37 PM4/13/12
to Dave Clayton, The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Hi Everyone,
I am currently in this situation. While our supply Clergy time was short, during that time I would touch base with the Warden to find out who was supplying and had agreed to open in the mornings and have everything ready to go for services. In between Supply and Interim I did clarify with the Warden, that I would be needed after the Interim arrived and not left out to dry. When our Interim Priest arrived, we sat down and had a conversation of what my role had been and whether or not I would continue to be part of the service. Needless to say, I have been more useful than even I had anticipated. From producing special bulletins, discussion about traditions and who is who amongst the congregation.
Feel free to call me if you would like to talk more.
Kate Pendzuk, FVGEC
Trinity - Ossining, NY
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George Carlson
Apr 13, 2012, 8:08:02 PM4/13/12
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Having been in a similar situation, here's what the departing Rector did.
He had a brief meeting with the Sr. Warden (who is officially in charge) and
me and said, "Can we safely say that the goal is to maintain as much
"normalcy" during this period as possible?" When we both indicated in the
affirmative, he said to the Sr. Warden, "Then I suggest that you let any
supply priest or interim know that any questions about liturgy should be
directed to the Verger." That made everything smooth as supply and interim
priests were happy to have a source for "how we do things" and I had the
backing of the Sr. Warden in the face of any challenges from others. While
I always offered to accommodate any preferences of the supply or interim
priests, their response was universally, "No, well do what you all are
accustomed to."
He had a brief meeting with the Sr. Warden (who is officially in charge) and
me and said, "Can we safely say that the goal is to maintain as much
"normalcy" during this period as possible?" When we both indicated in the
affirmative, he said to the Sr. Warden, "Then I suggest that you let any
supply priest or interim know that any questions about liturgy should be
directed to the Verger." That made everything smooth as supply and interim
priests were happy to have a source for "how we do things" and I had the
backing of the Sr. Warden in the face of any challenges from others. While
I always offered to accommodate any preferences of the supply or interim
priests, their response was universally, "No, well do what you all are
accustomed to."
In omnibus pax,
George Carlson, AVGEC
Former Verger, Holy Trinity, Melbourne, FL
Verger-without-portfolio, St. Paul's, Murfreesboro, TN
-----Original Message-----
From: vl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:vl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dave Clayton
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:29 PM
To: The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Subject: [V-List] Who do we report to between priests?
David Clayton,
Somerset, KY
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Janine Tinklenberg
Apr 13, 2012, 8:22:05 PM4/13/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
There is actually a mechanism in place for this. It's a position called "Lay Reader in Charge of the Congregation" which certainly could be the person who is the verger. This is usually the most senior lay reader in a parish which is without a priest. He or she is in charge of making sure the worship runs smoothly, interfacing with the supply priests, and setting the liturgy weekly. This position is referenced in "The Lay Reader's Manual: comprising directions
for rendering the services of divine worship permitted to be conducted
by lay readers in the Protestant Episcopal church in the United States
of America".
Janine Tinklenberg, Verger etc.
St. Elizabeth's Episcopal Church
Redford, MI
St. Elizabeth's Episcopal Church
Redford, MI
From: Dave Clayton <card...@hyperial.com>
To: The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List <vl...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 7:29 PM
Subject: [V-List] Who do we report to between priests?
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Sister Mary Winifred
Apr 13, 2012, 8:30:03 PM4/13/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
I believe this position does have to have the bishop's approval, does it
not? I mean, it's not automatic . . .
Sister Mary Winifred
Ascension Hermitage & Sanctuary
Diocese of Easton
Janine Tinklenberg
Apr 13, 2012, 8:47:43 PM4/13/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
I've been doing just that without anybody's approval for years now. Though I don't know that it is in any way official.
We've got a kind of Catch-22 when it comes to this sort of thing, at least in our diocese. In order for lay readers to be licensed, they have to be sponsored by the clergy in charge of the congregation. No one explains what you are supposed to do when there is not a clergy member to sponsor lay readers for licensure. After a year of being the only lay reader left in our parish after the last priest retired, I finally tapped a couple of people and trained them so they could help shoulder some of the burden. They are not licensed. I was licensed, but I imagine it expired at some point. We have been priestless since 2002, ten years now. We have a regular
supply priest, but since he's not officially our priest, we cannot be licensed through his sponsorship.
In the meantime, the bishop visits every other year and has never asked once if our lay readers were licensed or not. If he did, I guess I would ask him how we are supposed to manage it. At one point, we had a missioner working with our Total Ministry group who suggested we approach a neighboring parish with the thought of having him sponsor us. But then this particular priest decided to break with the diocese and take more than half his parish off to become part of the Anglican Mission of the Americas. Then the missioner ended up losing her job along with half the staff at the diocese. So what it comes down to is not enough people to keep track of what is needing to be done with small churches like ours, trying to keep the wagon rolling out here in the suburbs.
While I wouldn't mind being licensed again, in the long run the worship still needs to be planned, the liturgy still needs to be set, and lay readers still need to do what lay readers do, licenses or no. When the diocesan police show up to slap the cuffs on, maybe I'll stop then. ;-) I don't serve very often, as now I am also the Music Director/organist. It was interesting during Ash Wednesday, when I couldn't get a lay reader, so I did both. The organ is in the back of the church, the lectern at the front. Roller skates would have come in mighty handy.
Janine Tinklenberg, Verger etc.
St. Elizabeth's Episcopal Church
Redford, MI
St. Elizabeth's Episcopal Church
Redford, MI
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 8:30 PM
Hawkins Dallas g mail
Apr 13, 2012, 9:39:00 PM4/13/12
to Sister Mary Winifred, The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
She is correct
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
Dallas Hawkins
Michael Malone
Apr 14, 2012, 10:53:30 AM4/14/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
When our last priest left, I explained to the Senior Warden that, without a rector, I was no longer the verger, since I served at the rector's pleasure. The Senior Warden asked me to stay on as a sort of "Warden's Verger," to oversee worship and just make sure everything got done.
So, basically, I did everything I was doing before, except that now I was working with supply priests (we did not have an interim). The clergy who did our supply work really appreciated someone who knew the ropes of the local congregation.
Yes, having a verger in place can be a stabilizing influence during such a period. Consult with your Senior Warden to work out the details, and get the vestry to buy in. In the absence of a rector, responsibility for continuation of worship generally devolves to the vestry.
Mike Malone
Episcopal Church of the Holy Cross
Poplar Bluff, MO
> --
Danny Ray Meadors
Apr 15, 2012, 3:51:53 PM4/15/12
to Dave Clayton, The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Dave,
Our priest at St. Patrick's, Long Beach, Mississippi is leaving on Sunday,
April 22, 2012. We have supply priests line up to for our services through
July at the present time. Yes we serve at the pleasure of our Rector,
Vicar, Dean, Priest in Charge or whatever title the clergy person in charge
has. Remember when there is a vacancy that person is the Diocesan Bishop.
Another thing is the fact that the position of Verger is approved by the
Vestry at St. Patrick's. Oh another thing that makes it easy for me is the
Bishop's representative, the Canon to the Ordinary is the priest that fill
out my membership to the Verger's Guild. So after all that I will report to
Sr. Warden but will carry out all of my duties as Verger during our vacancy.
In this conversation mention of Lay Reader in Charge has come, I would like
to point out that the Canons of the Episcopal Church have been change to
clarify this position You will find that the license now is Pastoral Leader
.
Sec. 3. A Pastoral Leader is a lay person authorized to exercise
pastoral or administrative responsibility in a congregation under special
circumstances, as defined by the Bishop.
In the Diocese of Mississippi, when churches are vacant applications for
license as Worship Leader, license Eucharistic Minister and license
Eucharistic Visitor are signed by the Sr. Warden and he or she submits to
the Vestry or Mission Committee for approval. After the Vestry or Mission
Committee approves the application the Sr. Warden sends application for
Worship Leader to me and applications for Eucharistic Minister and
Eucharistic Visitor to the Bishop.
Our priest at St. Patrick's, Long Beach, Mississippi is leaving on Sunday,
April 22, 2012. We have supply priests line up to for our services through
July at the present time. Yes we serve at the pleasure of our Rector,
Vicar, Dean, Priest in Charge or whatever title the clergy person in charge
has. Remember when there is a vacancy that person is the Diocesan Bishop.
Another thing is the fact that the position of Verger is approved by the
Vestry at St. Patrick's. Oh another thing that makes it easy for me is the
Bishop's representative, the Canon to the Ordinary is the priest that fill
out my membership to the Verger's Guild. So after all that I will report to
Sr. Warden but will carry out all of my duties as Verger during our vacancy.
In this conversation mention of Lay Reader in Charge has come, I would like
to point out that the Canons of the Episcopal Church have been change to
clarify this position You will find that the license now is Pastoral Leader
.
Sec. 3. A Pastoral Leader is a lay person authorized to exercise
pastoral or administrative responsibility in a congregation under special
circumstances, as defined by the Bishop.
In the Diocese of Mississippi, when churches are vacant applications for
license as Worship Leader, license Eucharistic Minister and license
Eucharistic Visitor are signed by the Sr. Warden and he or she submits to
the Vestry or Mission Committee for approval. After the Vestry or Mission
Committee approves the application the Sr. Warden sends application for
Worship Leader to me and applications for Eucharistic Minister and
Eucharistic Visitor to the Bishop.
Danny Ray Meadors
Verger
St. Patrick's Episcopal Church
Long Beach Mississippi
"Service in Worship and Worship through Service"
"One Church in Mission: Inviting, Transforming and Reconciling"
-----Original Message-----
From: vl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:vl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Dave Clayton
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:29 PM
To: The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Subject: [V-List] Who do we report to between priests?
David Clayton,
Somerset, KY
--
Dave Clayton
Apr 15, 2012, 7:56:04 PM4/15/12
to vl...@googlegroups.com
Thanks to all for the comments, opinions and general guidance. I spoke to my Priest today and we agreed to discuss the matter with our Senior Warden. We are supremely confident that he will allow me to continue to function in my current responsibilities since, if I don't, he has to figure out who will do what and he's got enough on his plate at the moment, what with the discernment process for a new Priest and all.
A secondary issue has also arisen that was touched on during this thread. Normally, when my priest is not available for Wednesday night Eucharist, He has asked me to lead Evening Prayer. I am licensed as a Eucharist Minister but not as a Worship Leader. This lack of a license hasn't seemed to concern him but I feel slightly uncomfortable about it. Would it be unseemly of me
to request to be licensed in this position? I really enjoy doing it and the 4-6 people who normally attend have expressed gratitude that I've been doing it.
Forgive me for my naivete and ignorance in some of these areas. I've only been in the Church two years. Having you all here has been a great help to me both in improving my confidence and perfecting my service to the Church.
Yours in Christ,
David Clayton
St. Patrick Episcopal Church
Somerset, KY
A secondary issue has also arisen that was touched on during this thread. Normally, when my priest is not available for Wednesday night Eucharist, He has asked me to lead Evening Prayer. I am licensed as a Eucharist Minister but not as a Worship Leader. This lack of a license hasn't seemed to concern him but I feel slightly uncomfortable about it. Would it be unseemly of me
to request to be licensed in this position? I really enjoy doing it and the 4-6 people who normally attend have expressed gratitude that I've been doing it.
Forgive me for my naivete and ignorance in some of these areas. I've only been in the Church two years. Having you all here has been a great help to me both in improving my confidence and perfecting my service to the Church.
Yours in Christ,
David Clayton
St. Patrick Episcopal Church
Somerset, KY
Dave,
Our priest at St. Patrick's, Long Beach, Mississippi is leaving on Sunday,
April 22, 2012. We have supply priests line up to for our services through
July at the present time. Yes we serve at the pleasure of our Rector,
Vicar, Dean, Priest in Charge or whatever title the clergy person in charge
has. Remember when there is a vacancy that person is the Diocesan Bishop.
Another thing is the fact that the position of Verger is approved by the
Vestry at St. Patrick's. Oh another thing that makes it easy for me is the
Bishop's representative, the Canon to the Ordinary is the priest that fill
out my membership to the Verger's Guild. So after all that I will report to
Sr. Warden but will carry out all of my duties as Verger during our vacancy.
-----Original Message-----
From: vl...@googlegroups.com [mailto:vl...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
dut...@comcast.net
Apr 16, 2012, 1:46:47 PM4/16/12
to vlist
Dave,
Before your rector leaves it might be a good idea to get him to have you licensed through your bishop as a Worship Leader. Canon 4 section 1a of the Canons of the Episcopal Church describes the various licenses and talks about licensing through the Bishop. Section 4 of the same canon describes a Worship Leader. If you going to be leading worship, Evening Prayer, for the congregation it is probably a good idea to go ahead and get licensed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Claude "Duke" DuTeil
Cathedral Head Verger
WASHINGTON NATIONAL CATHEDRAL
Massachusetts and Wisconsin Avenues, NW · Washington, DC 20016
Telephone (202) 537-6211 · Fax (202) 537-6678 · ddu...@cathedral.org
www.nationalcathedral.org
Bruce Thomas
Apr 27, 2012, 4:49:16 PM4/27/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Not to be pedantic, but just to be precise, there are multiple canons
with the name of Canon 4 in the Constitution and Canons of The
Episcopal Church.
The one of which Claude speaks is more formally called Canon III.4,
with the description "Of Licensed Ministries" and found under "Title
III: Ministry".
I recommend that all vergers, because they are invariably involved in
assisting with the Eucharistic ministers and lectors of their
parishes, should be familiar with Canon III.4 and the many licensed
(lay) ministries that it describes (including the fact that lectors
are no longer even mentioned in the canon!). The current version,
tied to the 2009 Convention, can be accessed online at
http://www.episcopalarchives.org/CnC_ToC_2009.html. Interesting
reading .... hmmmmm, I just noticed that there's a new licensed
ministry that I don't think was present in the 2006 version of the
canons: "Evangelist." ;-)
Bruce Thomas
St. David's, Roswell, GA
Diocese of Atlanta
On Apr 16, 1:46 pm, dut...@comcast.net wrote:
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Before your rector leaves it might be a good idea to get him to have you licensed through your bishop as a Worship Leader. Canon 4 section 1a of the Canons of the Episcopal Church describes the various licenses and talks about licensing through the Bishop. Section 4 of the same canon describes a Worship Leader. If you going to be leading worship, Evening Prayer, for the congregation it is probably a good idea to go ahead and get licensed .
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
with the name of Canon 4 in the Constitution and Canons of The
Episcopal Church.
The one of which Claude speaks is more formally called Canon III.4,
with the description "Of Licensed Ministries" and found under "Title
III: Ministry".
I recommend that all vergers, because they are invariably involved in
assisting with the Eucharistic ministers and lectors of their
parishes, should be familiar with Canon III.4 and the many licensed
(lay) ministries that it describes (including the fact that lectors
are no longer even mentioned in the canon!). The current version,
tied to the 2009 Convention, can be accessed online at
http://www.episcopalarchives.org/CnC_ToC_2009.html. Interesting
reading .... hmmmmm, I just noticed that there's a new licensed
ministry that I don't think was present in the 2006 version of the
canons: "Evangelist." ;-)
Bruce Thomas
St. David's, Roswell, GA
Diocese of Atlanta
On Apr 16, 1:46 pm, dut...@comcast.net wrote:
> Dave,
>
>
>
> Before your rector leaves it might be a good idea to get him to have you licensed through your bishop as a Worship Leader. Canon 4 section 1a of the Canons of the Episcopal Church describes the various licenses and talks about licensing through the Bishop. Section 4 of the same canon describes a Worship Leader. If you going to be leading worship, Evening Prayer, for the congregation it is probably a good idea to go ahead and get licensed .
>
>
> Claude "Duke" DuTeil
> Cathedral Head Verger
>
> WASHINGTON NATIONAL CATHEDRAL
> Massachusetts and Wisconsin Avenues, NW · Washington, DC 20016
> Telephone (202) 537-6211 · Fax (202) 537-6678 · ddut...@cathedral.orgwww.nationalcathedral.org> Claude "Duke" DuTeil
> Cathedral Head Verger
>
> WASHINGTON NATIONAL CATHEDRAL
> Massachusetts and Wisconsin Avenues, NW · Washington, DC 20016
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