Question about adornments
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Brian Freese
Apr 27, 2012, 4:29:17 PM4/27/12
to vl...@googlegroups.com
I’m a verger about to complete the EfM program, and I wanted to ask if anyone has applied School of Theology at Sewanee seal to their chimere as we do the Vergers Guild of the Episcopal Church seal? Is it proper for an EfM graduate to use that adornment on verger robes?
Here’s a link to the seal at CM Almy:
http://www.almy.com/Product1/zc0003600/category/WebNav-ProductCategory/parent/
Peace and grace in this Eastertide.
Brian
Robert Wilson
Apr 27, 2012, 4:55:40 PM4/27/12
to vl...@googlegroups.com, Brian Freese
I would think that if you are a graduate of the school it would be appropriate to wear the seal.
I've noticed English vergers wearing their military miniatures on the chimere. Is that appropriate in the US?
Bob Wilson, Verger & Sacristain
Church of the Ascensiion
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Rholliebig
Apr 29, 2012, 5:47:09 PM4/29/12
to bw...@sbcglobal.net, vl...@googlegroups.com, brianf...@gmail.com
Individual tastes vary, but I would suggest that the chimere is a liturgical vestment and since we serve at the pleasure of our rectors/deans/et al. in that liturgy, it would seem appropriate to consult with that individual as to his or her preference for parish wear. I, too, am an EfM graduate as well as a diocesan lay reader, and am proud of both appointments, but do I want my chimere to look like a Boy Scout merit badge sash?
Bob Thompson, M.D.
Verger, St. Andrew's Cathedral
Jackson, Mississippi
Hawkins Dallas g mail
Apr 29, 2012, 5:50:58 PM4/29/12
to Rholliebig, bw...@sbcglobal.net, vl...@googlegroups.com, brianf...@gmail.com
Having been to a national Vergers convention, we have seen just about everything in the way of emblems and patches on robes and chimers, it is a matter of preference and your own tastes.
My grandfather once told me that there were two kinds of people: those who do the work and those who take the credit. He told me to try to be in the first group; there was much less competition.
______________________________________________________________________________
Ron McKenzie
Apr 29, 2012, 7:55:32 PM4/29/12
to vl...@googlegroups.com
Bob,
You might, for comparison purposes, look at the tippet worn by your priest when s/he vests in cassock & surplice. It usually has the insignia of her/his seminary. So, if your educational insignia is tastefully used on your chimere I doubt that it will look like a merit badge sash.
shalom
Ron
Church of the Ascension
Orlando, FL
On 4/29/2012 5:47 PM, Rholliebig wrote:
You might, for comparison purposes, look at the tippet worn by your priest when s/he vests in cassock & surplice. It usually has the insignia of her/his seminary. So, if your educational insignia is tastefully used on your chimere I doubt that it will look like a merit badge sash.
shalom
Ron
Church of the Ascension
Orlando, FL
On 4/29/2012 5:47 PM, Rholliebig wrote:
�Individual tastes vary, but I would suggest that the chimere is a liturgical vestment and�since we serve at the pleasure of our rectors/deans/et al. in that liturgy, it would seem appropriate to consult with that individual as to his or her preference for parish wear.� I, too, am an� EfM graduate as well as a diocesan lay reader, and am proud of both appointments, but do I want my chimere to look like a Boy Scout merit badge sash?���������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� Bob Thompson, M.D.��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� Verger, St. Andrew's Cathedral��������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� Jackson, Mississippi
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Wilson <bw...@sbcglobal.net>
To: vlist <vl...@googlegroups.com>; Brian Freese <brianf...@gmail.com>
Sent: Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:55 pm
Subject: Re: [V-List] Question about adornments
From: Brian Freese <brianf...@gmail.com>
Subject: [V-List] Question about adornments
To: vl...@googlegroups.com
Date: Friday, April 27, 2012, 4:29 PM
Brian --
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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tomhurwitz
Apr 30, 2012, 1:12:39 PM4/30/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
I would differ on this question. Opposite of celebrating priests,
vergers should not be a focus of attention, our job is facilitate
worship by making it happen smoothly and in an orderly fashion. I
would add that we should draw as little attention to ourselves as
possible, so that the worshipers can devote their maximum attention to
worship and prayer, not to us and our vestments. They don't need to be
asking themselves what that crest means, or even who we are. At The
Cathedral, we limit adornment to one small silver pectoral cross in
addition to cassock and chimere; no hats or bonnets, no ruffs, no
badges or signs of personal membership or accomplishment. That helps
to maintain uniformity, which also helps us be less visible.
Tom Hurwitz
Verger, Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine, New York
On Apr 29, 7:55 pm, Ron McKenzie <rmckenz...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> You might, for comparison purposes, look at the tippet worn by your
> priest when s/he vests in cassock & surplice. It usually has the
> insignia of her/his seminary. So, if your educational insignia is
> tastefully used on your chimere I doubt that it will look like a merit
> badge sash.
>
> shalom
>
> Ron
> Church of the Ascension
> Orlando, FL
>
> On 4/29/2012 5:47 PM, Rholliebig wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Individual tastes vary, but I would suggest that the chimere is a
> > liturgical vestment and since we serve at the pleasure of our
> > verger robes?
> > More information coming soon!
>
> > More information coming soon!
>
vergers should not be a focus of attention, our job is facilitate
worship by making it happen smoothly and in an orderly fashion. I
would add that we should draw as little attention to ourselves as
possible, so that the worshipers can devote their maximum attention to
worship and prayer, not to us and our vestments. They don't need to be
asking themselves what that crest means, or even who we are. At The
Cathedral, we limit adornment to one small silver pectoral cross in
addition to cassock and chimere; no hats or bonnets, no ruffs, no
badges or signs of personal membership or accomplishment. That helps
to maintain uniformity, which also helps us be less visible.
Tom Hurwitz
Verger, Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine, New York
On Apr 29, 7:55 pm, Ron McKenzie <rmckenz...@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> Bob,
>
> You might, for comparison purposes, look at the tippet worn by your
> priest when s/he vests in cassock & surplice. It usually has the
> insignia of her/his seminary. So, if your educational insignia is
> tastefully used on your chimere I doubt that it will look like a merit
> badge sash.
>
> shalom
>
> Ron
> Church of the Ascension
> Orlando, FL
>
> On 4/29/2012 5:47 PM, Rholliebig wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Individual tastes vary, but I would suggest that the chimere is a
> > rectors/deans/et al. in that liturgy, it would seem appropriate to
> > consult with that individual as to his or her preference for parish
> > wear. I, too, am an EfM graduate as well as a diocesan lay reader,
> > consult with that individual as to his or her preference for parish
> > and am proud of both appointments, but do I want my chimere to look
> > like a Boy Scout merit badge sash?
>
> > Bob Thompson, M.D.
> > like a Boy Scout merit badge sash?
>
>
> > Verger, St. Andrew's Cathedral
>
> > Verger, St. Andrew's Cathedral
>
> > Jackson, Mississippi
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Wilson <b...@sbcglobal.net>
> > To: vlist <vl...@googlegroups.com>; Brian Freese <brianfrees...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:55 pm
> > Subject: Re: [V-List] Question about adornments
>
> > I would think that if you are a graduate of the school it would be
> > appropriate to wear the seal.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robert Wilson <b...@sbcglobal.net>
> > To: vlist <vl...@googlegroups.com>; Brian Freese <brianfrees...@gmail.com>
> > Sent: Fri, Apr 27, 2012 3:55 pm
> > Subject: Re: [V-List] Question about adornments
>
> > I would think that if you are a graduate of the school it would be
> > appropriate to wear the seal.
> > I've noticed English vergers wearing their military miniatures on the
> > chimere. Is that appropriate in the US?
> > Bob Wilson, Verger & Sacristain
> > Church of the Ascensiion
> > Middletown, Ohio
>
> > --- On *Fri, 4/27/12, Brian Freese /<brianfrees...@gmail.com>/* wrote:
> > Church of the Ascensiion
> > Middletown, Ohio
>
>
> > From: Brian Freese <brianfrees...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: [V-List] Question about adornments
> > To: vl...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Friday, April 27, 2012, 4:29 PM
>
> > I�m a verger about to complete the EfM program, and I wanted to
> > ask if anyone has applied School of Theology at Sewanee seal to
> > their chimere as we do the Vergers Guild of the Episcopal Church
> > seal? Is it proper for an EfM graduate to use that adornment on
> > From: Brian Freese <brianfrees...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: [V-List] Question about adornments
> > To: vl...@googlegroups.com
> > Date: Friday, April 27, 2012, 4:29 PM
>
> > I�m a verger about to complete the EfM program, and I wanted to
> > ask if anyone has applied School of Theology at Sewanee seal to
> > their chimere as we do the Vergers Guild of the Episcopal Church
> > verger robes?
> > Here�s a link to the seal at CM Almy:
> > http://www.almy.com/Product1/zc0003600/category/WebNav-ProductCategor...
>
> > Peace and grace in this Eastertide.
>
> > Brian --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "V-List" group.
>
> > Peace and grace in this Eastertide.
>
> > Brian --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "V-List" group.
>
> > The 2012 VGEC Conference is October 11th through October 14, 2012
> > in Lakeland, Florida. Seehttp://vergers.org/conference/2012for
> > details. More information coming soon!
>
> > in Lakeland, Florida. Seehttp://vergers.org/conference/2012for
> > details. More information coming soon!
>
> > Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is
> > a free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail
> > news and information. Seehttp://www.vergers.org/join/vhappenings
> > a free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail
> > for more information.
>
> > Follow the VGEC on:
>
>
> > Follow the VGEC on:
>
> > http://vergers.org
> > http://facebook.com/vergerguild
> > http://twitter.com/vergerguild
> > http://youtube.com/vergertv
>
> > http://facebook.com/vergerguild
> > http://twitter.com/vergerguild
> > http://youtube.com/vergertv
>
> > For more options, visit this group at
> > http://groups.google.com/group/vlist?hl=en?hl=en
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "V-List" group.
>
> > http://groups.google.com/group/vlist?hl=en?hl=en
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "V-List" group.
>
> > The 2012 VGEC Conference is October 11th through October 14, 2012 in
> > Lakeland, Florida. Seehttp://vergers.org/conference/2012for details.
> > More information coming soon!
>
> > Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is a
> > free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and
> > information. Seehttp://www.vergers.org/join/vhappeningsfor more
> > free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and
> > information.
>
> > Follow the VGEC on:
>
>
> > Follow the VGEC on:
>
> >http://vergers.org
> >http://facebook.com/vergerguild
> >http://twitter.com/vergerguild
> >http://youtube.com/vergertv
>
> >http://facebook.com/vergerguild
> >http://twitter.com/vergerguild
> >http://youtube.com/vergertv
>
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/vlist?hl=en?hl=en
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "V-List" group.
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/vlist?hl=en?hl=en
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "V-List" group.
>
> > The 2012 VGEC Conference is October 11th through October 14, 2012 in
> > Lakeland, Florida. Seehttp://vergers.org/conference/2012for details.
> > More information coming soon!
>
> > Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is a
> > free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and
> > information. Seehttp://www.vergers.org/join/vhappeningsfor more
> > free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and
> > information.
>
> > Follow the VGEC on:
>
>
> > Follow the VGEC on:
>
> >http://vergers.org
> >http://facebook.com/vergerguild
> >http://twitter.com/vergerguild
> >http://youtube.com/vergertv
>
> >http://facebook.com/vergerguild
> >http://twitter.com/vergerguild
> >http://youtube.com/vergertv
>
Brian Freese
Apr 30, 2012, 2:18:05 PM4/30/12
to tomhurwitz, The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Good points on all sides. Appreciation for the collective wisdom.
Sent from my iPhone
> The 2012 VGEC Conference is October 11th through October 14, 2012 in Lakeland, Florida. See http://vergers.org/conference/2012 for details. More information coming soon!
>
> Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is a free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and information. See http://www.vergers.org/join/vhappenings for more information.
Sent from my iPhone
>
> Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is a free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and information. See http://www.vergers.org/join/vhappenings for more information.
David Jette
Apr 30, 2012, 1:24:08 PM4/30/12
to tomhu...@tomh.com, vl...@googlegroups.com
Dear Vergers
I am usually silent on this list but faithfully follow the thread. I could not agree with Tom more. Our job and ministry is never about us but is focused on enabling the experience of worship for everyone. Our service to the clergy, lay servers and others is grounded in the liturgy as a holy communal action. Our "neutral" vestments support this approach. At Trinity Wall Street like our cathedral the vergers wear simple (black in our case) cassocks and verger's gowns-there are no badges or insignias of any kind. We all have wondrous personalities but we appropriately blend in and somewhat disappear on occasion in order to better provide what may be needed. The red gown I wear for conferences which does have the Trinity seal on the right shoulder is worn only on the great days. Our guild of late has encouraged a view that less is more and somehow that just seems right.
Bless you all. Don't forget to celebrate Ascension Day on May 17!
David
The 2012 VGEC Conference is October 11th through October 14, 2012 in Lakeland, Florida. See http://vergers.org/conference/2012 for details. More information coming soon!
Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is a free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and information. See http://www.vergers.org/join/vhappenings for more information.
I am usually silent on this list but faithfully follow the thread. I could not agree with Tom more. Our job and ministry is never about us but is focused on enabling the experience of worship for everyone. Our service to the clergy, lay servers and others is grounded in the liturgy as a holy communal action. Our "neutral" vestments support this approach. At Trinity Wall Street like our cathedral the vergers wear simple (black in our case) cassocks and verger's gowns-there are no badges or insignias of any kind. We all have wondrous personalities but we appropriately blend in and somewhat disappear on occasion in order to better provide what may be needed. The red gown I wear for conferences which does have the Trinity seal on the right shoulder is worn only on the great days. Our guild of late has encouraged a view that less is more and somehow that just seems right.
Bless you all. Don't forget to celebrate Ascension Day on May 17!
David
Be sure to also sign up for the V-Happenings e-mail list which is a free service that the Guild uses to send out periodic e-mail news and information. See http://www.vergers.org/join/vhappenings for more information.
Brian Freese
Apr 30, 2012, 2:19:50 PM4/30/12
to David Jette, tomhu...@tomh.com, vl...@googlegroups.com
For help in focusing on the original question, here it is again: If you are
a graduate of the Education for Ministry program at the Sewanee's Theology
School, is it appropriate to wear the seal of that school?
It's interesting to me that the vergers speaking for some cathedrals of our
Episcopal Church seem to be castigating me for the mere idea of affixing a
seal to my chimere. I'm having a hard time reconciling in my mind that the
affixing of any seal would offer the distraction and disruption being
suggested. In my limited experience the vestments in such cathedrals are
far more formal and elaborate than my modest cassock and chimere in simple
cotton blend.
Apart from that, I agree with the assessment of the verger's role being one
of silent service in the background of things liturgical, sort of speak, and
within the customary of a particular parish.
How about everyone else out there who, like me, serve in typical suburban
parish? Is the affixing of seals on chimeres equally distasteful as it
appears to be among our cathedral brethren?
And along the same train of thought, why does the national guild (and in my
case the local chapter) produce seals? Are they not to be affixed to the
chimere? If not, what's the purpose of having them?
Peace and grace in Eastertide,
Brian
a graduate of the Education for Ministry program at the Sewanee's Theology
School, is it appropriate to wear the seal of that school?
It's interesting to me that the vergers speaking for some cathedrals of our
Episcopal Church seem to be castigating me for the mere idea of affixing a
seal to my chimere. I'm having a hard time reconciling in my mind that the
affixing of any seal would offer the distraction and disruption being
suggested. In my limited experience the vestments in such cathedrals are
far more formal and elaborate than my modest cassock and chimere in simple
cotton blend.
Apart from that, I agree with the assessment of the verger's role being one
of silent service in the background of things liturgical, sort of speak, and
within the customary of a particular parish.
How about everyone else out there who, like me, serve in typical suburban
parish? Is the affixing of seals on chimeres equally distasteful as it
appears to be among our cathedral brethren?
And along the same train of thought, why does the national guild (and in my
case the local chapter) produce seals? Are they not to be affixed to the
chimere? If not, what's the purpose of having them?
Peace and grace in Eastertide,
Brian
david moltke-hansen
Apr 30, 2012, 2:30:53 PM4/30/12
to Brian Freese, David Jette, tomhu...@tomh.com, vl...@googlegroups.com
The EFM course certificate is not a degree, like the Master of Divinity. If one takes extension or continuing education courses at a local college, that does not entitle one to wear the robes of a graduate of that college. Affixing the seal may mislead viewers to believe one has a degree that one does not. To take pride in the completion of the program is fair, but to mislead is not.
Brian Freese
Apr 30, 2012, 3:01:14 PM4/30/12
to david moltke-hansen, David Jette, tomhu...@tomh.com, vl...@googlegroups.com
That’s the answer I was looking for. Thanks! Brian
O.W. Conner
Apr 30, 2012, 3:01:28 PM4/30/12
to Brian Freese, vl...@googlegroups.com
In our large suburban parish,
almost all our band of 12 Vergers wear the VGEC seal and the
majority of us also wear the Episcopal Church seal on our
gray chimere lapels (with black cassocks also). In the early 1990's
one of our former Vergers also wore the seal of the University of
the South as an EFM graduate. None of our other Vergers/EFM
graduates choose to do so. We see the wearing of seal(s) as a
personal choice rather than as a rubric.
In my opinion, the idea that the Verger blends into the background is honored much more in theory than in practice as evidenced by the bright array of vestments worn by so many of our fellow Vergers at our national conferences. Diocesan and clerical direction, local custom, and personal preference seem to be the guide.
O.W. Conner III, MD
Head Verger
St. James'; Jackson, MS
In my opinion, the idea that the Verger blends into the background is honored much more in theory than in practice as evidenced by the bright array of vestments worn by so many of our fellow Vergers at our national conferences. Diocesan and clerical direction, local custom, and personal preference seem to be the guide.
O.W. Conner III, MD
Head Verger
St. James'; Jackson, MS
Rholliebig
Apr 30, 2012, 3:43:26 PM4/30/12
to owco...@connersbewe.com, brianf...@gmail.com, vl...@googlegroups.com
Brian,
In this thread(no pun) there seems to be a multitude of opinions, all thoughtful. If I may return to the crux of my original comment, let's remember our workplace. If I were uncertain of the proper attire at my job, I'd ask my boss----------my priest. After all, we serve at the pleasure of our clergy and that should resolve any confusion.
Warm wishes,
Bob Thompson M.D.
David Deutsch
Apr 30, 2012, 5:29:48 PM4/30/12
to The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
Please don't misinterpret this. To help to that point, I'll say you
should do what you think best. BUT, getting one's certificate (and it
looks great!) for completing the EFM course (I did in 2004) does not
make you a graduate of The University of the South School of Theology.
It simply means you have completed an extension course. You can
probably go on-line to see the credit hours needed to graduate with an
MTS or MDiv degree.
A larger question might be: How flashy should vergers vestments be? Of
course, in full disclosure, I don't wear any vestments at St. Mark's
except Christmas and Easter (a black cassock). But at the Washington
National Cathedral, I do, but they are very simple an unadorned. BTW:
There is no right or wrong answer to this question, but in thinking
about it, one can start to get the heart of what it means to be a
verger in one's own mind.
Peace,
David Deutsch
On Apr 27, 4:29 pm, "Brian Freese" <brianfrees...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a verger about to complete the EfM program, and I wanted to ask if
> anyone has applied School of Theology at Sewanee seal to their chimere as we
> do the Vergers Guild of the Episcopal Church seal? Is it proper for an EfM
> graduate to use that adornment on verger robes?
>
> Here's a link to the seal at CM Almy:
>
> http://www.almy.com/Product1/zc0003600/category/WebNav-ProductCategor...
> t/
should do what you think best. BUT, getting one's certificate (and it
looks great!) for completing the EFM course (I did in 2004) does not
make you a graduate of The University of the South School of Theology.
It simply means you have completed an extension course. You can
probably go on-line to see the credit hours needed to graduate with an
MTS or MDiv degree.
A larger question might be: How flashy should vergers vestments be? Of
course, in full disclosure, I don't wear any vestments at St. Mark's
except Christmas and Easter (a black cassock). But at the Washington
National Cathedral, I do, but they are very simple an unadorned. BTW:
There is no right or wrong answer to this question, but in thinking
about it, one can start to get the heart of what it means to be a
verger in one's own mind.
Peace,
David Deutsch
On Apr 27, 4:29 pm, "Brian Freese" <brianfrees...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm a verger about to complete the EfM program, and I wanted to ask if
> anyone has applied School of Theology at Sewanee seal to their chimere as we
> do the Vergers Guild of the Episcopal Church seal? Is it proper for an EfM
> graduate to use that adornment on verger robes?
>
> Here's a link to the seal at CM Almy:
>
> t/
Janet McAlister
Apr 30, 2012, 6:15:01 PM4/30/12
to David Deutsch, The Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church V-List
I rarely dress out as verger. But for special occasions, I go all out. We have a ordination coming up for a soon-to-be Sewanee graduate and she wants me dressed out. My vestments are unadorned, and I will borrow a plain verge for the occasion. I completed EfM in 1986 and would not consider wearing a Sewanee patch on my vestments. I do, however, proudly display my diploma over my piano!
Janet McAlister
St Stephen's, Huntsville, AL
Hawkins Dallas g mail
Apr 30, 2012, 10:41:56 PM4/30/12
to David Jette, tomhu...@tomh.com, vl...@googlegroups.com
Nicely said Dave.
Blessings
Dallas
Sent from my iPhone
Dallas Hawkins
Blessings
Dallas
Sent from my iPhone
Dallas Hawkins
James Gooden
May 1, 2012, 11:19:18 AM5/1/12
to Hawkins Dallas g mail, David Jette, tomhu...@tomh.com, vl...@googlegroups.com
My Dear Friends,
In the age of "Whatever", in the time of "What About Me?", my VGEC badge reminds me that I am an Episcopalian and the inheritor of a 500 year old tradition. Tradition is, of course a two-way street. It should sustain our present and inform our future. A tradition that gazes passively into the past instead of boldly into the future has little purpose. Tradition tethers us to our space capsule as search for an even greater meaning in our ever changing universe. I proudly wear my VGEC badge on my otherwise muted vestment, that proclaims to all that this is an Episcopal Church, and that all are welcome. Sorry about the metaphors.
James
Asst. Verger
Grace-St.Paul's
Tucson
-JG
"Wherever we go in the mountains, or indeed any of God's wild fields, we find more than we seek." -John Muir
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