Hi all, Not sure if anyone else put this up but I saw someone put it up on
twitter. Originally found on the applevis website, it's an article
explaining that a few days before ios 6 is released, the app store is
inaccessible in most areas.
Article below:
A Warning to VoiceOver Users Ahead of the Release of iOS 6
article region start
Submitted by David on 16 September 2012
Member of the AppleVis Editorial Team
As you should be aware, our stated policy is to allow no postings on this
site which would be a breach of Apple's Non Disclosure Agreement.
Essentially,
this Agreement places legal restrictions on what can be publicly revealed
about beta versions of Apple software.
Posting specific and detailed information about iOS 6 before it is released
to the public on 19 September would in most cases be a breach of this
Agreement,
and could place you at risk of legal action by Apple. However, we have been
alerted to a significant accessibility issue that is likely to be present in
iOS 6, and we believe that with the public release just a few days away, we
would be failing the community if we did not issue a warning.
There are likely to be some who will condemn our decision. All that we can
say is that it is not something we have done lightly and without much
discussion.
Here is the problem as we understand it:
At the time of writing, the App Store app is virtually unusable with
VoiceOver on the version of iOS 6 that was released to developers last week.
This release
is commonly referred to as the Gold Master, and is effectively the final
version.
This problem has been reported and replicated by several iPhone users. We
are unable to confirm whether the same problem exists on the iPad.
The App Store app has been significantly rewritten for iOS 6, with changes
made to the way that content is displayed and navigated.
There are 5 tabs in the app:
Featured
Top Charts
Genius
Search
Updates
Of these, only the Updates tab appears to be fully accessible with
VoiceOver.
Results on the Search tab are no longer displayed as a vertical list.
Instead, each app is displayed on its own page. When not using VoiceOver,
you flick
to the left or right to navigate through the search results. This allows for
more information about each app to be shown. We assume that it is also
considered
to be more visually appealing and engaging.
When using VoiceOver, only the first search result is easily accessible. If
you swipe right through the first search result, VoiceOver will read
subsequent
results in much the same way that it always has. However, visually, the
screen is still displaying the first result, and double-tapping on the name
of
subsequent apps will achieve nothing.
Each page in the search results indicates what page it is - 1 of 250 for
example. However, this is only recognized by VoiceOver on the first page if
you
tap directly on it or swipe left from the bottom bar of tab buttons.
Although this element might seem similar to the one present on your
iDevice's home
screen, it cannot be used with VoiceOver to move between pages.
To date, the only gesture that appears to work to move between pages is the
following - double-tap and hold with one finger. Whilst keeping that finger
pressed to the screen, use a second finger to flick left or right across the
screen. This is not a gesture that is likely to be intuitive to many
VoiceOver
users, and reports say that it can be difficult to action consistently.
The Genius tab exhibits the same problem. Again, suggested apps are
displayed one per page, and you cannot easily navigate to other pages with
VoiceOver.
A further issue in this section is the page element used to indicate that
you are not interested in a suggestion. Apart from not being reported by
VoiceOver
as an active page element, it gives no feedback on its selection status.
In the Top Charts tab, apps are listed in the more traditional vertical list
format. However, this does not automatically scroll as you swipe through the
list, meaning that only the first 4 apps are ever visually displayed on
screen and accessible with VoiceOver. This makes it impossible to browse
charts
or app categories. We are unaware of any gesture that will work to gain
access to apps below the first 4 in the list.
On the Featured tab are three rows of apps. Each has a small thumbnail icon,
along with its name, category and price. When not using VoiceOver, you use
you finger to slide this row of icons across the screen and reveal more
apps. This cannot be done with VoiceOver. Instead, when you swipe through
the row
of apps, VoiceOver will announce the four which are visually being shown on
screen, and the last right swipe will have focus jump back to the very first
app. Because of this, only by exploring the screen with your finger will you
learn that there are 2 further rows of apps and other items further down the
page..
It is not easy to explain in writing the nature and scope of these problems.
If they have not been fixed before the final version of iOS 6 is released,
we hope to have available a podcast demonstration.
The App Store app in iOS is different to most other native apps, in that it
is not hard-coded into iOS. The main content area of the app is delivered
dynamically
from Apple's servers, meaning that they can make changes at any time to how
this content is displayed and navigated. As a result, the accessibility
issues
described above could be fixed without the need for an update to iOS itself.
It is likely that Apple are working to do this right now, and it is possible
that it will be fixed by the time the public release of iOS 6 becomes
available.
If not, you should bear in mind before updating that you will no longer have
access to most features of the App Store directly from your iDevice. For
those
who only ever access the App Store this way, it means that in many instances
you will have to use iTunes on your Mac or PC.
Like everybody else, we hope that the problem can and will be fixed before
the public release of iOS 6. However, if that doesn't happen, we want people
to be able to make an informed decision about updating on Wednesday. Waiting
until Wednesday to post a warning would mean that many people would have
updated
before they knew of this potential problem.
We would also like to mention that people were already posting to our forum
about this problem, and we had been deleting these posts. This situation was
not tenable, as we simply couldn't remove those posts before some people had
read them. We either had to close the forum until Wednesday, allow those
posts
to remain, or take a position on this problem ourselves. The rest, as they
say, is history.
We will be sure to let you know as soon as this problem is fixed.
Remember, we do not know if it will be present on the iPad.
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of jeffry miller
Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 11:44 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: iHeart Radio:
yeah that is irritating
-- Jeff
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
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Yup, I can confirm this. I tend to do very specific searches so hadn't seen
the full implications of this before. So I apologise for my previous post
which didn't really convey the enormity of this. Updating apps work as I
described, but this is very serious. Let's hope something can be done
without actually updating the OS.
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Head
Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 2:16 p.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
Hi all, Not sure if anyone else put this up but I saw someone put it up on
twitter. Originally found on the applevis website, it's an article
explaining that a few days before ios 6 is released, the app store is
inaccessible in most areas.
Article below:
A Warning to VoiceOver Users Ahead of the Release of iOS 6 article region
start Submitted by David on 16 September 2012 Member of the AppleVis
Editorial Team
As you should be aware, our stated policy is to allow no postings on this
site which would be a breach of Apple's Non Disclosure Agreement.
Essentially,
this Agreement places legal restrictions on what can be publicly revealed
about beta versions of Apple software.
Posting specific and detailed information about iOS 6 before it is released
to the public on 19 September would in most cases be a breach of this
Agreement, and could place you at risk of legal action by Apple. However, we
have been alerted to a significant accessibility issue that is likely to be
present in iOS 6, and we believe that with the public release just a few
days away, we would be failing the community if we did not issue a warning.
There are likely to be some who will condemn our decision. All that we can
say is that it is not something we have done lightly and without much
discussion.
Here is the problem as we understand it:
At the time of writing, the App Store app is virtually unusable with
VoiceOver on the version of iOS 6 that was released to developers last week.
This release
is commonly referred to as the Gold Master, and is effectively the final
version.
This problem has been reported and replicated by several iPhone users. We
are unable to confirm whether the same problem exists on the iPad.
The App Store app has been significantly rewritten for iOS 6, with changes
made to the way that content is displayed and navigated.
There are 5 tabs in the app:
Featured
Top Charts
Genius
Search
Updates
Of these, only the Updates tab appears to be fully accessible with
VoiceOver.
Results on the Search tab are no longer displayed as a vertical list.
Instead, each app is displayed on its own page. When not using VoiceOver,
you flick to the left or right to navigate through the search results. This
allows for more information about each app to be shown. We assume that it is
also considered to be more visually appealing and engaging.
When using VoiceOver, only the first search result is easily accessible. If
you swipe right through the first search result, VoiceOver will read
subsequent results in much the same way that it always has. However,
visually, the screen is still displaying the first result, and
double-tapping on the name of subsequent apps will achieve nothing.
Each page in the search results indicates what page it is - 1 of 250 for
example. However, this is only recognized by VoiceOver on the first page if
you tap directly on it or swipe left from the bottom bar of tab buttons.
Although this element might seem similar to the one present on your
iDevice's home screen, it cannot be used with VoiceOver to move between
pages.
To date, the only gesture that appears to work to move between pages is the
following - double-tap and hold with one finger. Whilst keeping that finger
pressed to the screen, use a second finger to flick left or right across the
screen. This is not a gesture that is likely to be intuitive to many
VoiceOver users, and reports say that it can be difficult to action
consistently.
The Genius tab exhibits the same problem. Again, suggested apps are
displayed one per page, and you cannot easily navigate to other pages with
VoiceOver.
A further issue in this section is the page element used to indicate that
you are not interested in a suggestion. Apart from not being reported by
VoiceOver as an active page element, it gives no feedback on its selection
status.
In the Top Charts tab, apps are listed in the more traditional vertical list
format. However, this does not automatically scroll as you swipe through the
list, meaning that only the first 4 apps are ever visually displayed on
screen and accessible with VoiceOver. This makes it impossible to browse
charts or app categories. We are unaware of any gesture that will work to
gain access to apps below the first 4 in the list.
On the Featured tab are three rows of apps. Each has a small thumbnail icon,
along with its name, category and price. When not using VoiceOver, you use
you finger to slide this row of icons across the screen and reveal more
apps. This cannot be done with VoiceOver. Instead, when you swipe through
the row of apps, VoiceOver will announce the four which are visually being
shown on screen, and the last right swipe will have focus jump back to the
very first app. Because of this, only by exploring the screen with your
finger will you learn that there are 2 further rows of apps and other items
further down the page..
It is not easy to explain in writing the nature and scope of these problems.
If they have not been fixed before the final version of iOS 6 is released,
we hope to have available a podcast demonstration.
The App Store app in iOS is different to most other native apps, in that it
is not hard-coded into iOS. The main content area of the app is delivered
dynamically from Apple's servers, meaning that they can make changes at any
time to how this content is displayed and navigated. As a result, the
accessibility issues described above could be fixed without the need for an
update to iOS itself.
It is likely that Apple are working to do this right now, and it is possible
that it will be fixed by the time the public release of iOS 6 becomes
available.
If not, you should bear in mind before updating that you will no longer have
access to most features of the App Store directly from your iDevice. For
those who only ever access the App Store this way, it means that in many
instances you will have to use iTunes on your Mac or PC.
Like everybody else, we hope that the problem can and will be fixed before
the public release of iOS 6. However, if that doesn't happen, we want people
to be able to make an informed decision about updating on Wednesday. Waiting
until Wednesday to post a warning would mean that many people would have
updated before they knew of this potential problem.
We would also like to mention that people were already posting to our forum
about this problem, and we had been deleting these posts. This situation was
not tenable, as we simply couldn't remove those posts before some people had
read them. We either had to close the forum until Wednesday, allow those
posts to remain, or take a position on this problem ourselves. The rest, as
they say, is history.
We will be sure to let you know as soon as this problem is fixed.
Remember, we do not know if it will be present on the iPad.
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of jeffry miller
Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 11:44 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: iHeart Radio:
yeah that is irritating
--
Jeff
--
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I'm not sure who follows appleVis and reads the comments, but as I stated
there, the changes to any stores are dynamic, meaning apple can make changes
to them without having to release a completely new build of iOS. So if any
changes are going to be made, we'll see them without having to download
another version of the OS. Also, the stores aren't supposed to be rolled out
completely until the 19th, so it's quite possible they're going to make a
change within the next few days before the release goes public.
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Jonathan Mosen
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 9:23 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
Yup, I can confirm this. I tend to do very specific searches so hadn't seen
the full implications of this before. So I apologise for my previous post
which didn't really convey the enormity of this. Updating apps work as I
described, but this is very serious. Let's hope something can be done
without actually updating the OS.
Jonathan
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Head
Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 2:16 p.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
Hi all, Not sure if anyone else put this up but I saw someone put it up on
twitter. Originally found on the applevis website, it's an article
explaining that a few days before ios 6 is released, the app store is
inaccessible in most areas.
Article below:
A Warning to VoiceOver Users Ahead of the Release of iOS 6 article region
start Submitted by David on 16 September 2012 Member of the AppleVis
Editorial Team
As you should be aware, our stated policy is to allow no postings on this
site which would be a breach of Apple's Non Disclosure Agreement.
Essentially,
this Agreement places legal restrictions on what can be publicly revealed
about beta versions of Apple software.
Posting specific and detailed information about iOS 6 before it is released
to the public on 19 September would in most cases be a breach of this
Agreement, and could place you at risk of legal action by Apple. However, we
have been alerted to a significant accessibility issue that is likely to be
present in iOS 6, and we believe that with the public release just a few
days away, we would be failing the community if we did not issue a warning.
There are likely to be some who will condemn our decision. All that we can
say is that it is not something we have done lightly and without much
discussion.
Here is the problem as we understand it:
At the time of writing, the App Store app is virtually unusable with
VoiceOver on the version of iOS 6 that was released to developers last week.
This release
is commonly referred to as the Gold Master, and is effectively the final
version.
This problem has been reported and replicated by several iPhone users. We
are unable to confirm whether the same problem exists on the iPad.
The App Store app has been significantly rewritten for iOS 6, with changes
made to the way that content is displayed and navigated.
There are 5 tabs in the app:
Featured
Top Charts
Genius
Search
Updates
Of these, only the Updates tab appears to be fully accessible with
VoiceOver.
Results on the Search tab are no longer displayed as a vertical list.
Instead, each app is displayed on its own page. When not using VoiceOver,
you flick to the left or right to navigate through the search results. This
allows for more information about each app to be shown. We assume that it is
also considered to be more visually appealing and engaging.
When using VoiceOver, only the first search result is easily accessible. If
you swipe right through the first search result, VoiceOver will read
subsequent results in much the same way that it always has. However,
visually, the screen is still displaying the first result, and
double-tapping on the name of subsequent apps will achieve nothing.
Each page in the search results indicates what page it is - 1 of 250 for
example. However, this is only recognized by VoiceOver on the first page if
you tap directly on it or swipe left from the bottom bar of tab buttons.
Although this element might seem similar to the one present on your
iDevice's home screen, it cannot be used with VoiceOver to move between
pages.
To date, the only gesture that appears to work to move between pages is the
following - double-tap and hold with one finger. Whilst keeping that finger
pressed to the screen, use a second finger to flick left or right across the
screen. This is not a gesture that is likely to be intuitive to many
VoiceOver users, and reports say that it can be difficult to action
consistently.
The Genius tab exhibits the same problem. Again, suggested apps are
displayed one per page, and you cannot easily navigate to other pages with
VoiceOver.
A further issue in this section is the page element used to indicate that
you are not interested in a suggestion. Apart from not being reported by
VoiceOver as an active page element, it gives no feedback on its selection
status.
In the Top Charts tab, apps are listed in the more traditional vertical list
format. However, this does not automatically scroll as you swipe through the
list, meaning that only the first 4 apps are ever visually displayed on
screen and accessible with VoiceOver. This makes it impossible to browse
charts or app categories. We are unaware of any gesture that will work to
gain access to apps below the first 4 in the list.
On the Featured tab are three rows of apps. Each has a small thumbnail icon,
along with its name, category and price. When not using VoiceOver, you use
you finger to slide this row of icons across the screen and reveal more
apps. This cannot be done with VoiceOver. Instead, when you swipe through
the row of apps, VoiceOver will announce the four which are visually being
shown on screen, and the last right swipe will have focus jump back to the
very first app. Because of this, only by exploring the screen with your
finger will you learn that there are 2 further rows of apps and other items
further down the page..
It is not easy to explain in writing the nature and scope of these problems.
If they have not been fixed before the final version of iOS 6 is released,
we hope to have available a podcast demonstration.
The App Store app in iOS is different to most other native apps, in that it
is not hard-coded into iOS. The main content area of the app is delivered
dynamically from Apple's servers, meaning that they can make changes at any
time to how this content is displayed and navigated. As a result, the
accessibility issues described above could be fixed without the need for an
update to iOS itself.
It is likely that Apple are working to do this right now, and it is possible
that it will be fixed by the time the public release of iOS 6 becomes
available.
If not, you should bear in mind before updating that you will no longer have
access to most features of the App Store directly from your iDevice. For
those who only ever access the App Store this way, it means that in many
instances you will have to use iTunes on your Mac or PC.
Like everybody else, we hope that the problem can and will be fixed before
the public release of iOS 6. However, if that doesn't happen, we want people
to be able to make an informed decision about updating on Wednesday. Waiting
until Wednesday to post a warning would mean that many people would have
updated before they knew of this potential problem.
We would also like to mention that people were already posting to our forum
about this problem, and we had been deleting these posts. This situation was
not tenable, as we simply couldn't remove those posts before some people had
read them. We either had to close the forum until Wednesday, allow those
posts to remain, or take a position on this problem ourselves. The rest, as
they say, is history.
We will be sure to let you know as soon as this problem is fixed.
Remember, we do not know if it will be present on the iPad.
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of jeffry miller
Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 11:44 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: iHeart Radio:
yeah that is irritating
--
Jeff
--
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Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
something I always fear with their redesigns, especially now that
Steve Jobs is no longer with us. Obviously I'm trying not to jump the
gun but the changes sometimes make me wonder if accessibility concerns
will gradually fall by the wayside as the company moves forward. It
seems like nothing this big would've slipped through the cracks
before.
Then again, I'd like to think Apple has enough people using VO to make
it part of their bottom line/priority list. All the good press it
creates is also beneficial to the company so they'd be wise to keep
our needs into consideration.
I'll still be downloading IOS 6.0 on the day of release so fingers
crossed that they fix these problems in the meantime. I think it all
depends on developper reports so any of you guys with a GM please
e-mail Apple about this!
-Marc
On 9/16/12, Andrew Head <coldeskim...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all, Not sure if anyone else put this up but I saw someone put it up on
> twitter. Originally found on the applevis website, it's an article
> explaining that a few days before ios 6 is released, the app store is
> inaccessible in most areas.
> Article below:
> A Warning to VoiceOver Users Ahead of the Release of iOS 6
> article region start
> Submitted by David on 16 September 2012
> Member of the AppleVis Editorial Team
> As you should be aware, our stated policy is to allow no postings on this
> site which would be a breach of Apple's Non Disclosure Agreement.
> Essentially,
> this Agreement places legal restrictions on what can be publicly revealed
> about beta versions of Apple software.
> Posting specific and detailed information about iOS 6 before it is released
> to the public on 19 September would in most cases be a breach of this
> Agreement,
> and could place you at risk of legal action by Apple. However, we have been
> alerted to a significant accessibility issue that is likely to be present
> in
> iOS 6, and we believe that with the public release just a few days away, we
> would be failing the community if we did not issue a warning.
> There are likely to be some who will condemn our decision. All that we can
> say is that it is not something we have done lightly and without much
> discussion.
> Here is the problem as we understand it:
> At the time of writing, the App Store app is virtually unusable with
> VoiceOver on the version of iOS 6 that was released to developers last
> week.
> This release
> is commonly referred to as the Gold Master, and is effectively the final
> version.
> This problem has been reported and replicated by several iPhone users. We
> are unable to confirm whether the same problem exists on the iPad.
> The App Store app has been significantly rewritten for iOS 6, with changes
> made to the way that content is displayed and navigated.
> There are 5 tabs in the app:
> Featured
> Top Charts
> Genius
> Search
> Updates
> Of these, only the Updates tab appears to be fully accessible with
> VoiceOver.
> Results on the Search tab are no longer displayed as a vertical list.
> Instead, each app is displayed on its own page. When not using VoiceOver,
> you flick
> to the left or right to navigate through the search results. This allows
> for
> more information about each app to be shown. We assume that it is also
> considered
> to be more visually appealing and engaging.
> When using VoiceOver, only the first search result is easily accessible. If
> you swipe right through the first search result, VoiceOver will read
> subsequent
> results in much the same way that it always has. However, visually, the
> screen is still displaying the first result, and double-tapping on the name
> of
> subsequent apps will achieve nothing.
> Each page in the search results indicates what page it is - 1 of 250 for
> example. However, this is only recognized by VoiceOver on the first page if
> you
> tap directly on it or swipe left from the bottom bar of tab buttons.
> Although this element might seem similar to the one present on your
> iDevice's home
> screen, it cannot be used with VoiceOver to move between pages.
> To date, the only gesture that appears to work to move between pages is the
> following - double-tap and hold with one finger. Whilst keeping that finger
> pressed to the screen, use a second finger to flick left or right across
> the
> screen. This is not a gesture that is likely to be intuitive to many
> VoiceOver
> users, and reports say that it can be difficult to action consistently.
> The Genius tab exhibits the same problem. Again, suggested apps are
> displayed one per page, and you cannot easily navigate to other pages with
> VoiceOver.
> A further issue in this section is the page element used to indicate that
> you are not interested in a suggestion. Apart from not being reported by
> VoiceOver
> as an active page element, it gives no feedback on its selection status.
> In the Top Charts tab, apps are listed in the more traditional vertical
> list
> format. However, this does not automatically scroll as you swipe through
> the
> list, meaning that only the first 4 apps are ever visually displayed on
> screen and accessible with VoiceOver. This makes it impossible to browse
> charts
> or app categories. We are unaware of any gesture that will work to gain
> access to apps below the first 4 in the list.
> On the Featured tab are three rows of apps. Each has a small thumbnail
> icon,
> along with its name, category and price. When not using VoiceOver, you use
> you finger to slide this row of icons across the screen and reveal more
> apps. This cannot be done with VoiceOver. Instead, when you swipe through
> the row
> of apps, VoiceOver will announce the four which are visually being shown on
> screen, and the last right swipe will have focus jump back to the very
> first
> app. Because of this, only by exploring the screen with your finger will
> you
> learn that there are 2 further rows of apps and other items further down
> the
> page..
> It is not easy to explain in writing the nature and scope of these
> problems.
> If they have not been fixed before the final version of iOS 6 is released,
> we hope to have available a podcast demonstration.
> The App Store app in iOS is different to most other native apps, in that it
> is not hard-coded into iOS. The main content area of the app is delivered
> dynamically
> from Apple's servers, meaning that they can make changes at any time to how
> this content is displayed and navigated. As a result, the accessibility
> issues
> described above could be fixed without the need for an update to iOS
> itself.
> It is likely that Apple are working to do this right now, and it is
> possible
> that it will be fixed by the time the public release of iOS 6 becomes
> available.
> If not, you should bear in mind before updating that you will no longer
> have
> access to most features of the App Store directly from your iDevice. For
> those
> who only ever access the App Store this way, it means that in many
> instances
> you will have to use iTunes on your Mac or PC.
> Like everybody else, we hope that the problem can and will be fixed before
> the public release of iOS 6. However, if that doesn't happen, we want
> people
> to be able to make an informed decision about updating on Wednesday.
> Waiting
> until Wednesday to post a warning would mean that many people would have
> updated
> before they knew of this potential problem.
> We would also like to mention that people were already posting to our forum
> about this problem, and we had been deleting these posts. This situation
> was
> not tenable, as we simply couldn't remove those posts before some people
> had
> read them. We either had to close the forum until Wednesday, allow those
> posts
> to remain, or take a position on this problem ourselves. The rest, as they
> say, is history.
> We will be sure to let you know as soon as this problem is fixed.
> Remember, we do not know if it will be present on the iPad.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of jeffry miller
> Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 11:44 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: iHeart Radio:
> yeah that is irritating
> --
> Jeff
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone"
> Google
> Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
> Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
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-- “There is no shame in being who you are. There’s only shame in not
going down swinging to protect it”
Is this the app store the only native app that is potentially inaccessible
to voiceover? I'll hold off on updating till others can give a review of OS 6.
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Andrew Head
Sent: September-16-12 8:16 PM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
Hi all, Not sure if anyone else put this up but I saw someone put it up on
twitter. Originally found on the applevis website, it's an article
explaining that a few days before ios 6 is released, the app store is
inaccessible in most areas.
Article below:
A Warning to VoiceOver Users Ahead of the Release of iOS 6
article region start
Submitted by David on 16 September 2012
Member of the AppleVis Editorial Team
As you should be aware, our stated policy is to allow no postings on this
site which would be a breach of Apple's Non Disclosure Agreement.
Essentially,
this Agreement places legal restrictions on what can be publicly revealed
about beta versions of Apple software.
Posting specific and detailed information about iOS 6 before it is released
to the public on 19 September would in most cases be a breach of this
Agreement,
and could place you at risk of legal action by Apple. However, we have been
alerted to a significant accessibility issue that is likely to be present in
iOS 6, and we believe that with the public release just a few days away, we
would be failing the community if we did not issue a warning.
There are likely to be some who will condemn our decision. All that we can
say is that it is not something we have done lightly and without much
discussion.
Here is the problem as we understand it:
At the time of writing, the App Store app is virtually unusable with
VoiceOver on the version of iOS 6 that was released to developers last week.
This release
is commonly referred to as the Gold Master, and is effectively the final
version.
This problem has been reported and replicated by several iPhone users. We
are unable to confirm whether the same problem exists on the iPad.
The App Store app has been significantly rewritten for iOS 6, with changes
made to the way that content is displayed and navigated.
There are 5 tabs in the app:
Featured
Top Charts
Genius
Search
Updates
Of these, only the Updates tab appears to be fully accessible with
VoiceOver.
Results on the Search tab are no longer displayed as a vertical list.
Instead, each app is displayed on its own page. When not using VoiceOver,
you flick
to the left or right to navigate through the search results. This allows for
more information about each app to be shown. We assume that it is also
considered
to be more visually appealing and engaging.
When using VoiceOver, only the first search result is easily accessible. If
you swipe right through the first search result, VoiceOver will read
subsequent
results in much the same way that it always has. However, visually, the
screen is still displaying the first result, and double-tapping on the name
of
subsequent apps will achieve nothing.
Each page in the search results indicates what page it is - 1 of 250 for
example. However, this is only recognized by VoiceOver on the first page if
you
tap directly on it or swipe left from the bottom bar of tab buttons.
Although this element might seem similar to the one present on your
iDevice's home
screen, it cannot be used with VoiceOver to move between pages.
To date, the only gesture that appears to work to move between pages is the
following - double-tap and hold with one finger. Whilst keeping that finger
pressed to the screen, use a second finger to flick left or right across the
screen. This is not a gesture that is likely to be intuitive to many
VoiceOver
users, and reports say that it can be difficult to action consistently.
The Genius tab exhibits the same problem. Again, suggested apps are
displayed one per page, and you cannot easily navigate to other pages with
VoiceOver.
A further issue in this section is the page element used to indicate that
you are not interested in a suggestion. Apart from not being reported by
VoiceOver
as an active page element, it gives no feedback on its selection status.
In the Top Charts tab, apps are listed in the more traditional vertical list
format. However, this does not automatically scroll as you swipe through the
list, meaning that only the first 4 apps are ever visually displayed on
screen and accessible with VoiceOver. This makes it impossible to browse
charts
or app categories. We are unaware of any gesture that will work to gain
access to apps below the first 4 in the list.
On the Featured tab are three rows of apps. Each has a small thumbnail icon,
along with its name, category and price. When not using VoiceOver, you use
you finger to slide this row of icons across the screen and reveal more
apps. This cannot be done with VoiceOver. Instead, when you swipe through
the row
of apps, VoiceOver will announce the four which are visually being shown on
screen, and the last right swipe will have focus jump back to the very first
app. Because of this, only by exploring the screen with your finger will you
learn that there are 2 further rows of apps and other items further down the
page..
It is not easy to explain in writing the nature and scope of these problems.
If they have not been fixed before the final version of iOS 6 is released,
we hope to have available a podcast demonstration.
The App Store app in iOS is different to most other native apps, in that it
is not hard-coded into iOS. The main content area of the app is delivered
dynamically
from Apple's servers, meaning that they can make changes at any time to how
this content is displayed and navigated. As a result, the accessibility
issues
described above could be fixed without the need for an update to iOS itself.
It is likely that Apple are working to do this right now, and it is possible
that it will be fixed by the time the public release of iOS 6 becomes
available.
If not, you should bear in mind before updating that you will no longer have
access to most features of the App Store directly from your iDevice. For
those
who only ever access the App Store this way, it means that in many instances
you will have to use iTunes on your Mac or PC.
Like everybody else, we hope that the problem can and will be fixed before
the public release of iOS 6. However, if that doesn't happen, we want people
to be able to make an informed decision about updating on Wednesday. Waiting
until Wednesday to post a warning would mean that many people would have
updated
before they knew of this potential problem.
We would also like to mention that people were already posting to our forum
about this problem, and we had been deleting these posts. This situation was
not tenable, as we simply couldn't remove those posts before some people had
read them. We either had to close the forum until Wednesday, allow those
posts
to remain, or take a position on this problem ourselves. The rest, as they
say, is history.
We will be sure to let you know as soon as this problem is fixed.
Remember, we do not know if it will be present on the iPad.
-----Original Message-----
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of jeffry miller
Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 11:44 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: iHeart Radio:
yeah that is irritating
-- Jeff
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
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To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
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To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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Hi. I might also wait for others to report if the App Store issue is fixed. I hate the fact that if I want to install an app I have to connect my iPhone to Itunes. It's a load of crap in my opinion.
Shawn
Sent from my white Mac Book
On 2012-09-16, at 11:19 PM, viphone@googlegroups.com wrote:
And I can confirm the fact that APple can make backend changes without releasing a new app. THis is also true with iTunes and the Mac App store (obviously for the Mac). I have seen issues in the app that was corrected without a new version being downloaded which leads me to believe there is some html code that can be changed. So, I suspect these types of fixes are much easier than if it required changes to the code of the app.
On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:26 PM, Daniel Miller <miller...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure who follows appleVis and reads the comments, but as I stated
> there, the changes to any stores are dynamic, meaning apple can make changes
> to them without having to release a completely new build of iOS. So if any
> changes are going to be made, we'll see them without having to download
> another version of the OS. Also, the stores aren't supposed to be rolled out
> completely until the 19th, so it's quite possible they're going to make a
> change within the next few days before the release goes public.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Jonathan Mosen
> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2012 9:23 PM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
> Yup, I can confirm this. I tend to do very specific searches so hadn't seen
> the full implications of this before. So I apologise for my previous post
> which didn't really convey the enormity of this. Updating apps work as I
> described, but this is very serious. Let's hope something can be done
> without actually updating the OS.
> Jonathan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Andrew Head
> Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 2:16 p.m.
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
> Hi all, Not sure if anyone else put this up but I saw someone put it up on
> twitter. Originally found on the applevis website, it's an article
> explaining that a few days before ios 6 is released, the app store is
> inaccessible in most areas.
> Article below:
> A Warning to VoiceOver Users Ahead of the Release of iOS 6 article region
> start Submitted by David on 16 September 2012 Member of the AppleVis
> Editorial Team
> As you should be aware, our stated policy is to allow no postings on this
> site which would be a breach of Apple's Non Disclosure Agreement.
> Essentially,
> this Agreement places legal restrictions on what can be publicly revealed
> about beta versions of Apple software.
> Posting specific and detailed information about iOS 6 before it is released
> to the public on 19 September would in most cases be a breach of this
> Agreement, and could place you at risk of legal action by Apple. However, we
> have been alerted to a significant accessibility issue that is likely to be
> present in iOS 6, and we believe that with the public release just a few
> days away, we would be failing the community if we did not issue a warning.
> There are likely to be some who will condemn our decision. All that we can
> say is that it is not something we have done lightly and without much
> discussion.
> Here is the problem as we understand it:
> At the time of writing, the App Store app is virtually unusable with
> VoiceOver on the version of iOS 6 that was released to developers last week.
> This release
> is commonly referred to as the Gold Master, and is effectively the final
> version.
> This problem has been reported and replicated by several iPhone users. We
> are unable to confirm whether the same problem exists on the iPad.
> The App Store app has been significantly rewritten for iOS 6, with changes
> made to the way that content is displayed and navigated.
> There are 5 tabs in the app:
> Featured
> Top Charts
> Genius
> Search
> Updates
> Of these, only the Updates tab appears to be fully accessible with
> VoiceOver.
> Results on the Search tab are no longer displayed as a vertical list.
> Instead, each app is displayed on its own page. When not using VoiceOver,
> you flick to the left or right to navigate through the search results. This
> allows for more information about each app to be shown. We assume that it is
> also considered to be more visually appealing and engaging.
> When using VoiceOver, only the first search result is easily accessible. If
> you swipe right through the first search result, VoiceOver will read
> subsequent results in much the same way that it always has. However,
> visually, the screen is still displaying the first result, and
> double-tapping on the name of subsequent apps will achieve nothing.
> Each page in the search results indicates what page it is - 1 of 250 for
> example. However, this is only recognized by VoiceOver on the first page if
> you tap directly on it or swipe left from the bottom bar of tab buttons.
> Although this element might seem similar to the one present on your
> iDevice's home screen, it cannot be used with VoiceOver to move between
> pages.
> To date, the only gesture that appears to work to move between pages is the
> following - double-tap and hold with one finger. Whilst keeping that finger
> pressed to the screen, use a second finger to flick left or right across the
> screen. This is not a gesture that is likely to be intuitive to many
> VoiceOver users, and reports say that it can be difficult to action
> consistently.
> The Genius tab exhibits the same problem. Again, suggested apps are
> displayed one per page, and you cannot easily navigate to other pages with
> VoiceOver.
> A further issue in this section is the page element used to indicate that
> you are not interested in a suggestion. Apart from not being reported by
> VoiceOver as an active page element, it gives no feedback on its selection
> status.
> In the Top Charts tab, apps are listed in the more traditional vertical list
> format. However, this does not automatically scroll as you swipe through the
> list, meaning that only the first 4 apps are ever visually displayed on
> screen and accessible with VoiceOver. This makes it impossible to browse
> charts or app categories. We are unaware of any gesture that will work to
> gain access to apps below the first 4 in the list.
> On the Featured tab are three rows of apps. Each has a small thumbnail icon,
> along with its name, category and price. When not using VoiceOver, you use
> you finger to slide this row of icons across the screen and reveal more
> apps. This cannot be done with VoiceOver. Instead, when you swipe through
> the row of apps, VoiceOver will announce the four which are visually being
> shown on screen, and the last right swipe will have focus jump back to the
> very first app. Because of this, only by exploring the screen with your
> finger will you learn that there are 2 further rows of apps and other items
> further down the page..
> It is not easy to explain in writing the nature and scope of these problems.
> If they have not been fixed before the final version of iOS 6 is released,
> we hope to have available a podcast demonstration.
> The App Store app in iOS is different to most other native apps, in that it
> is not hard-coded into iOS. The main content area of the app is delivered
> dynamically from Apple's servers, meaning that they can make changes at any
> time to how this content is displayed and navigated. As a result, the
> accessibility issues described above could be fixed without the need for an
> update to iOS itself.
> It is likely that Apple are working to do this right now, and it is possible
> that it will be fixed by the time the public release of iOS 6 becomes
> available.
> If not, you should bear in mind before updating that you will no longer have
> access to most features of the App Store directly from your iDevice. For
> those who only ever access the App Store this way, it means that in many
> instances you will have to use iTunes on your Mac or PC.
> Like everybody else, we hope that the problem can and will be fixed before
> the public release of iOS 6. However, if that doesn't happen, we want people
> to be able to make an informed decision about updating on Wednesday. Waiting
> until Wednesday to post a warning would mean that many people would have
> updated before they knew of this potential problem.
> We would also like to mention that people were already posting to our forum
> about this problem, and we had been deleting these posts. This situation was
> not tenable, as we simply couldn't remove those posts before some people had
> read them. We either had to close the forum until Wednesday, allow those
> posts to remain, or take a position on this problem ourselves. The rest, as
> they say, is history.
> We will be sure to let you know as soon as this problem is fixed.
> Remember, we do not know if it will be present on the iPad.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of jeffry miller
> Sent: Monday, 17 September 2012 11:44 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: iHeart Radio:
> yeah that is irritating
> --
> Jeff
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
> Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs, and so forth I think it is important to point out:
1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon accessibility.
3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets attention.
5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested so heavily into accessibility.
6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed. I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to address problems.
On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com> wrote:
Shawn, Why do you have to connect your phone to iTune to instal an app? I
never do that. I just click on "install" and enter my password. Is there a
setting that you might be able to change so you don't need to connect to
iTunes?
Sandy
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shawn Krasniuk
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:21 AM
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
Hi. I might also wait for others to report if the App Store issue is fixed.
I hate the fact that if I want to install an app I have to connect my iPhone
to Itunes. It's a load of crap in my opinion.
Shawn
Sent from my white Mac Book
On 2012-09-16, at 11:19 PM, viphone@googlegroups.com wrote:
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
Group.
To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
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He doesn't have to at the moment; I assume he's talking about the app
store in iOs6 as per the discussion in this thread. Has anyone who is
running this noticed any improvements? As others have said this is
something that can be fixed without pushing out another update, but if
Apple do intend to fix this, surely they would have done so or will do
so very soon since we're looking at just over 24 hours before it goes
live.
Cheers,
Ben.
On 9/17/12, Sandy Finley <finleykn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Shawn, Why do you have to connect your phone to iTune to instal an app? I
> never do that. I just click on "install" and enter my password. Is there a
> setting that you might be able to change so you don't need to connect to
> iTunes?
> Sandy
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Shawn Krasniuk
> Sent: Monday, September 17, 2012 2:21 AM
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
> Hi. I might also wait for others to report if the App Store issue is fixed.
> I hate the fact that if I want to install an app I have to connect my
> iPhone
> to Itunes. It's a load of crap in my opinion.
> Shawn
> Sent from my white Mac Book
> On 2012-09-16, at 11:19 PM, viphone@googlegroups.com wrote:
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone"
> Google
> Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
> Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
of it.
I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
-Marc
On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
> accessibility.
> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
> attention.
> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
> so heavily into accessibility.
> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
> development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
> address problems.
> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
> Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
-- “There is no shame in being who you are. There’s only shame in not
going down swinging to protect it”
Just two other points here. Accessibility like any other project may
have it's priority rise and fall as other projects priorities change or
as Apple perceives it's lead in the accessibility area growing or
shrinking. this is no different than any other project.
I agree that Apple has done a lot as a main stream company with respect
to accessibility, but I'm not positive that their investment is light
years ahead of other main stream companies. I know for example, Google
has quite a bit invested in accessibility right now between ChromeVox,
Android and their on line services, such as Google Docs. IBM also came
out with their own screen reader for OS/2, which I know is ancient
history, but their investment to accessibility has continued with
contributions to FireFox and the accessibility of products such as Lotus
Notes, Sametime and Symphony.
I also don't see Apple changing on a dime just because Steve Jobs is no
longer with them. Who knows how this will effect Apple in the long run,
but I'm sure he delegated some things before his death, and I'm sure
there are others at Apple who shared and understood his vision.
> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
> of it.
> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
> -Marc
> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Marc,
>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>> accessibility.
>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>> attention.
>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>> so heavily into accessibility.
>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>> development protocols etc I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>> address problems.
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
>> Group.
>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
You know I've not been much a fan of Chrome or the ChromVox, but you know I understand it is still early in its development. WHat I am pleased by is the fact that GOogle also is investing in accessibility and I hope other companies will see the benefits and jump on the wagon as well. Do I want to see vendors such as FS or GW Micro go out of business? No, but at the same time if that were to happen it means that finally accessibility has reached a "mainstream" status and that can be a good (as well as a bad ) thing. All this means is if you looked back just five or so years ago, who ever thought we would have access to these touch-screen devices to the level we do today. Actually when you consider the entire 20 plus years of screen reading technology and look just in the last five or six years at what has been accomplished, well it is pretty amazing.
On Sep 17, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just two other points here. Accessibility like any other project may
> have it's priority rise and fall as other projects priorities change or
> as Apple perceives it's lead in the accessibility area growing or
> shrinking. this is no different than any other project.
> I agree that Apple has done a lot as a main stream company with respect
> to accessibility, but I'm not positive that their investment is light
> years ahead of other main stream companies. I know for example, Google
> has quite a bit invested in accessibility right now between ChromeVox,
> Android and their on line services, such as Google Docs. IBM also came
> out with their own screen reader for OS/2, which I know is ancient
> history, but their investment to accessibility has continued with
> contributions to FireFox and the accessibility of products such as Lotus
> Notes, Sametime and Symphony.
> I also don't see Apple changing on a dime just because Steve Jobs is no
> longer with them. Who knows how this will effect Apple in the long run,
> but I'm sure he delegated some things before his death, and I'm sure
> there are others at Apple who shared and understood his vision.
> On 17/09/12 09:36, Marc Rocheleau wrote:
>> Hey Scott,
>> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
>> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
>> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
>> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
>> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
>> of it.
>> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
>> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
>> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
>> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
>> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
>> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
>> -Marc
>> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Marc,
>>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>>> accessibility.
>>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>>> attention.
>>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>>> so heavily into accessibility.
>>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>>> development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>>> address problems.
>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
>>> Group.
>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> -- > Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
Hi Sandy. Yes, I was talking about the App Store in IOS 6. If I have to plug my phone in to buy apps and everything like that, I'll just wait until they fix it and then I'll upgrade.
Shawn
Sent from my white Mac Book
On 2012-09-17, at 10:39 AM, viphone@googlegroups.com wrote:
Hi Shawn, assuming this issue isn't fixed for a while, you wouldn't have to
plug your phone in. Wireless syncing is available in iOS, plus, if you
enable automatic downloads, you can purchase something in iTunes and it will
be pushed to your phone automatically. Not at all underplaying the issue,
just offering work-arounds for a situation that I very much hope is
temporary.
Jonathan
_____
From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Shawn Krasniuk
Sent: Tuesday, 18 September 2012 6:15 a.m.
To: viphone@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
Hi Sandy. Yes, I was talking about the App Store in IOS 6. If I have to plug
my phone in to buy apps and everything like that, I'll just wait until they
fix it and then I'll upgrade.
Shawn
Sent from my white Mac Book
On 2012-09-17, at 10:39 AM, viphone@googlegroups.com wrote:
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
Group.
To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> Hi Shawn, assuming this issue isn't fixed for a while, you wouldn't have to plug your phone in. Wireless syncing is available in iOS, plus, if you enable automatic downloads, you can purchase something in iTunes and it will be pushed to your phone automatically. Not at all underplaying the issue, just offering work-arounds for a situation that I very much hope is temporary.
> Jonathan
> From: viphone@googlegroups.com [mailto:viphone@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Krasniuk
> Sent: Tuesday, 18 September 2012 6:15 a.m.
> To: viphone@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: a warning to voice over users concerning IOS 6
> Hi Sandy. Yes, I was talking about the App Store in IOS 6. If I have to plug my phone in to buy apps and everything like that, I'll just wait until they fix it and then I'll upgrade.
> Shawn
> Sent from my white Mac Book
> On 2012-09-17, at 10:39 AM, viphone@googlegroups.com wrote:
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
Do not consider 100,000 iPhones to blind folk to be much of a market in this case. This number represents 0.3% of 1 quarter year of Apple's iPhone sales, but includes all models of iPhones for the past 3 years. In other words, if Apple were to stop supporting VO, they wouldn't even notice the tiny bump to their profits. Apple is not supporting concepts of universal access for their bottom line.
They may well be partially using an accessibility model for social credit, but that doesn't explain their truly phenomenal demonstrated continuing commitment to universal access. Apple is the market leader for universal access.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 18/09/2012, at 2:36, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
> of it.
> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
> -Marc
> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Marc,
>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>> accessibility.
>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>> attention.
>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>> so heavily into accessibility.
>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>> development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>> address problems.
>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
>> Group.
>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> -- > “There is no shame in being who you are. There’s only shame in not
> going down swinging to protect it”
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
maybe this is the new big supricing bug for ios6. now the maybe fixed the tts lost bug from ios5. ;)
in every ios release there is one bug that is very annoying and take apple a year to fix. :)
think of the misspronauntiation of the tts in ios4> :)
hopefully I'm wrong ;)
Mvg
-Peter Durieux
Op 17-sep.-2012 om 20:15 heeft Shawn Krasniuk <bigbigshawn....@gmail.com> het volgende geschreven:
> Hi Sandy. Yes, I was talking about the App Store in IOS 6. If I have to plug my phone in to buy apps and everything like that, I'll just wait until they fix it and then I'll upgrade.
> Shawn
> Sent from my white Mac Book
> On 2012-09-17, at 10:39 AM, viphone@googlegroups.com wrote:
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
I must differ with you about Apple's accessibility compared with other mainstream companies.
Apple is unique in that they are making all of their physical products as accessible as possible (we cannot say all of their products since iCloud accessibility online is only partial).
IBM would come closest to Apple's commitment with OS2, but Lotus products only became accessible after considerable social and legal pressure against IBM. That said, IBM developed Home Page Reader as an accessible web browser when it was needed.
Google is trying to catch up to Apple's accessibility. I hope Google develops accessibility as a core corporate value, but they do not yet appear to be making all of their product / product lines accessible.
Many other companies have dabbled in accessibility. Several of them give up after losing various amounts of moneys in accessibility-related projects. One example is Texas Instruments (if memory serves) who developed an interesting possibility for refreshable braille using light reactive polymers. A blindness organisation so completely trashed and ridiculed them that they stated they would never work on development around access again (as told to me by one of their VPs 12 years ago).
Interestingly, Apple's touch-based screen-reader was criticised when it first came out by prominent blindness people. Fortunately, Apple ignored such comments the way they tend to ignore all of their critics.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 18/09/2012, at 2:48, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just two other points here. Accessibility like any other project may
> have it's priority rise and fall as other projects priorities change or
> as Apple perceives it's lead in the accessibility area growing or
> shrinking. this is no different than any other project.
> I agree that Apple has done a lot as a main stream company with respect
> to accessibility, but I'm not positive that their investment is light
> years ahead of other main stream companies. I know for example, Google
> has quite a bit invested in accessibility right now between ChromeVox,
> Android and their on line services, such as Google Docs. IBM also came
> out with their own screen reader for OS/2, which I know is ancient
> history, but their investment to accessibility has continued with
> contributions to FireFox and the accessibility of products such as Lotus
> Notes, Sametime and Symphony.
> I also don't see Apple changing on a dime just because Steve Jobs is no
> longer with them. Who knows how this will effect Apple in the long run,
> but I'm sure he delegated some things before his death, and I'm sure
> there are others at Apple who shared and understood his vision.
> On 17/09/12 09:36, Marc Rocheleau wrote:
>> Hey Scott,
>> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
>> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
>> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
>> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
>> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
>> of it.
>> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
>> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
>> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
>> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
>> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
>> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
>> -Marc
>> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Marc,
>>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>>> accessibility.
>>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>>> attention.
>>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>>> so heavily into accessibility.
>>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>>> development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>>> address problems.
>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
>>> Group.
>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> -- > Christopher (CJ)
> chaltain at Gmail
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
The fact is, before apple came out with their revolutionary touch-based screen reader, it was not believed blind people could work with touch screens in such a way. The closest thing was Mobile Speak who turned the touch-screen in to 4 large buttons, and created an invisible talking keyboard that covered the entire display. The professional research questions were all focused around how to ad tactile feedback in a way that would be meaningful to blind people. The basic premise has been that blind people could not effectively adapt to an ever-changing visual interface. As I read through the professional research and literature, this theme remains constant.
David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
Sent from my iPhone
On 18/09/2012, at 3:28, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You know I've not been much a fan of Chrome or the ChromVox, but you know I understand it is still early in its development. WHat I am pleased by is the fact that GOogle also is investing in accessibility and I hope other companies will see the benefits and jump on the wagon as well. Do I want to see vendors such as FS or GW Micro go out of business? No, but at the same time if that were to happen it means that finally accessibility has reached a "mainstream" status and that can be a good (as well as a bad ) thing. All this means is if you looked back just five or so years ago, who ever thought we would have access to these touch-screen devices to the level we do today. Actually when you consider the entire 20 plus years of screen reading technology and look just in the last five or six years at what has been accomplished, well it is pretty amazing.
> On Sep 17, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just two other points here. Accessibility like any other project may
>> have it's priority rise and fall as other projects priorities change or
>> as Apple perceives it's lead in the accessibility area growing or
>> shrinking. this is no different than any other project.
>> I agree that Apple has done a lot as a main stream company with respect
>> to accessibility, but I'm not positive that their investment is light
>> years ahead of other main stream companies. I know for example, Google
>> has quite a bit invested in accessibility right now between ChromeVox,
>> Android and their on line services, such as Google Docs. IBM also came
>> out with their own screen reader for OS/2, which I know is ancient
>> history, but their investment to accessibility has continued with
>> contributions to FireFox and the accessibility of products such as Lotus
>> Notes, Sametime and Symphony.
>> I also don't see Apple changing on a dime just because Steve Jobs is no
>> longer with them. Who knows how this will effect Apple in the long run,
>> but I'm sure he delegated some things before his death, and I'm sure
>> there are others at Apple who shared and understood his vision.
>> On 17/09/12 09:36, Marc Rocheleau wrote:
>>> Hey Scott,
>>> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
>>> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
>>> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
>>> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
>>> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
>>> of it.
>>> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
>>> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
>>> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
>>> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
>>> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
>>> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
>>> -Marc
>>> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Marc,
>>>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>>>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>>>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>>>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>>>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>>>> accessibility.
>>>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>>>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>>>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>>>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>>>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>>>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>>>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>>>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>>>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>>>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>>>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>>>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>>>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>>>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>>>> attention.
>>>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>>>> so heavily into accessibility.
>>>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>>>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>>>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>>>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>>>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>>>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>>>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>>>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>>>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>>>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>>>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>>>> development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>>>> address problems.
>>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
>>>> Group.
>>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
>> -- >> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at Gmail
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
True, but my point is that although a small portion of the overall sales, APple still considers this segment worth the investment. I would love to know what the real numbers are across all Apple products including the Macs.
On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:19 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do not consider 100,000 iPhones to blind folk to be much of a market in this case. This number represents 0.3% of 1 quarter year of Apple's iPhone sales, but includes all models of iPhones for the past 3 years. In other words, if Apple were to stop supporting VO, they wouldn't even notice the tiny bump to their profits. Apple is not supporting concepts of universal access for their bottom line.
Yes and that is why APple is so innovative. I have always felt that there would be a way for blind people to use a touch interface and Apple made it happen in a much more meaningful way than Code Factory did with their approach. I'm not saying CF was wrong in their approach necessarily, but it certainly did not provide the type of meaningful interface that would bring the level of productivity that iOS has.
Of course this is just my opinion. :)
On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:01 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The fact is, before apple came out with their revolutionary touch-based screen reader, it was not believed blind people could work with touch screens in such a way. The closest thing was Mobile Speak who turned the touch-screen in to 4 large buttons, and created an invisible talking keyboard that covered the entire display. The professional research questions were all focused around how to ad tactile feedback in a way that would be meaningful to blind people. The basic premise has been that blind people could not effectively adapt to an ever-changing visual interface. As I read through the professional research and literature, this theme remains constant.
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> On 18/09/2012, at 3:28, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You know I've not been much a fan of Chrome or the ChromVox, but you know I understand it is still early in its development. WHat I am pleased by is the fact that GOogle also is investing in accessibility and I hope other companies will see the benefits and jump on the wagon as well. Do I want to see vendors such as FS or GW Micro go out of business? No, but at the same time if that were to happen it means that finally accessibility has reached a "mainstream" status and that can be a good (as well as a bad ) thing. All this means is if you looked back just five or so years ago, who ever thought we would have access to these touch-screen devices to the level we do today. Actually when you consider the entire 20 plus years of screen reading technology and look just in the last five or six years at what has been accomplished, well it is pretty amazing.
>> On Sep 17, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Just two other points here. Accessibility like any other project may
>>> have it's priority rise and fall as other projects priorities change or
>>> as Apple perceives it's lead in the accessibility area growing or
>>> shrinking. this is no different than any other project.
>>> I agree that Apple has done a lot as a main stream company with respect
>>> to accessibility, but I'm not positive that their investment is light
>>> years ahead of other main stream companies. I know for example, Google
>>> has quite a bit invested in accessibility right now between ChromeVox,
>>> Android and their on line services, such as Google Docs. IBM also came
>>> out with their own screen reader for OS/2, which I know is ancient
>>> history, but their investment to accessibility has continued with
>>> contributions to FireFox and the accessibility of products such as Lotus
>>> Notes, Sametime and Symphony.
>>> I also don't see Apple changing on a dime just because Steve Jobs is no
>>> longer with them. Who knows how this will effect Apple in the long run,
>>> but I'm sure he delegated some things before his death, and I'm sure
>>> there are others at Apple who shared and understood his vision.
>>> On 17/09/12 09:36, Marc Rocheleau wrote:
>>>> Hey Scott,
>>>> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
>>>> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
>>>> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
>>>> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
>>>> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
>>>> of it.
>>>> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
>>>> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
>>>> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
>>>> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
>>>> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
>>>> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
>>>> -Marc
>>>> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Marc,
>>>>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>>>>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>>>>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>>>>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>>>>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>>>>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>>>>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>>>>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>>>>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>>>>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>>>>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>>>>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>>>>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>>>>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>>>>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>>>>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>>>>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>>>>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>>>>> attention.
>>>>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>>>>> so heavily into accessibility.
>>>>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>>>>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>>>>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>>>>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>>>>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>>>>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>>>>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>>>>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>>>>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>>>>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>>>>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>>>>> development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>>>>> address problems.
>>>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>>>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
>>>>> --
>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
>>>>> Group.
>>>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
>>> -- >>> Christopher (CJ)
>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
But you will agree or some of you will, Code Factory did start the possibility of touch screen and may be Apple did learn something from them don't some of you think?
On 17 Sep 2012, at 22:09, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes and that is why APple is so innovative. I have always felt that there would be a way for blind people to use a touch interface and Apple made it happen in a much more meaningful way than Code Factory did with their approach. I'm not saying CF was wrong in their approach necessarily, but it certainly did not provide the type of meaningful interface that would bring the level of productivity that iOS has.
> Of course this is just my opinion. :)
> On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:01 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The fact is, before apple came out with their revolutionary touch-based screen reader, it was not believed blind people could work with touch screens in such a way. The closest thing was Mobile Speak who turned the touch-screen in to 4 large buttons, and created an invisible talking keyboard that covered the entire display. The professional research questions were all focused around how to ad tactile feedback in a way that would be meaningful to blind people. The basic premise has been that blind people could not effectively adapt to an ever-changing visual interface. As I read through the professional research and literature, this theme remains constant.
>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> On 18/09/2012, at 3:28, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You know I've not been much a fan of Chrome or the ChromVox, but you know I understand it is still early in its development. WHat I am pleased by is the fact that GOogle also is investing in accessibility and I hope other companies will see the benefits and jump on the wagon as well. Do I want to see vendors such as FS or GW Micro go out of business? No, but at the same time if that were to happen it means that finally accessibility has reached a "mainstream" status and that can be a good (as well as a bad ) thing. All this means is if you looked back just five or so years ago, who ever thought we would have access to these touch-screen devices to the level we do today. Actually when you consider the entire 20 plus years of screen reading technology and look just in the last five or six years at what has been accomplished, well it is pretty amazing.
>>> On Sep 17, 2012, at 10:48 AM, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Just two other points here. Accessibility like any other project may
>>>> have it's priority rise and fall as other projects priorities change or
>>>> as Apple perceives it's lead in the accessibility area growing or
>>>> shrinking. this is no different than any other project.
>>>> I agree that Apple has done a lot as a main stream company with respect
>>>> to accessibility, but I'm not positive that their investment is light
>>>> years ahead of other main stream companies. I know for example, Google
>>>> has quite a bit invested in accessibility right now between ChromeVox,
>>>> Android and their on line services, such as Google Docs. IBM also came
>>>> out with their own screen reader for OS/2, which I know is ancient
>>>> history, but their investment to accessibility has continued with
>>>> contributions to FireFox and the accessibility of products such as Lotus
>>>> Notes, Sametime and Symphony.
>>>> I also don't see Apple changing on a dime just because Steve Jobs is no
>>>> longer with them. Who knows how this will effect Apple in the long run,
>>>> but I'm sure he delegated some things before his death, and I'm sure
>>>> there are others at Apple who shared and understood his vision.
>>>> On 17/09/12 09:36, Marc Rocheleau wrote:
>>>>> Hey Scott,
>>>>> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
>>>>> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
>>>>> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
>>>>> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
>>>>> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
>>>>> of it.
>>>>> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
>>>>> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
>>>>> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
>>>>> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
>>>>> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
>>>>> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
>>>>> -Marc
>>>>> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Marc,
>>>>>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>>>>>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>>>>>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>>>>>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>>>>>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>>>>>> accessibility.
>>>>>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>>>>>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>>>>>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>>>>>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>>>>>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>>>>>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>>>>>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>>>>>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>>>>>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>>>>>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>>>>>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>>>>>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>>>>>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>>>>>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>>>>>> attention.
>>>>>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>>>>>> so heavily into accessibility.
>>>>>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>>>>>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>>>>>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>>>>>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>>>>>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>>>>>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>>>>>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>>>>>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>>>>>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>>>>>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>>>>>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>>>>>> development protocols etc… I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>>>>>> address problems.
>>>>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>>>>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google
>>>>>> Group.
>>>>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit
>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>>>> viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
>>>> -- >>>> Christopher (CJ)
>>>> chaltain at Gmail
>>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
>>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
>>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
>> To search the VIPhone public archive, visit http://www.mail-archive.com/viphone@googlegroups.com/.
>> To post to this group, send email to viphone@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to viphone+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/viphone?hl=en.
> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "VIPhone" Google Group.
> To search the VIPhone public
I agree with David here, but I also wonder how much of Apple's sales are
effected by their commitment to accessibility. For example, how many
government sales or small business sales or educational sales wouldn't
have even been possible if they weren't able to demonstrate that they
had an accessible solution and meet the various regulations and laws, at
least here in the US? I think this would explode the 100K figure by
quite a bit, although I'm not sure it's possible to capture such a
number. I also don't mean to take away from Apple's commitment to
accessibility. I think their commitment goes beyond just bottom line
dollars and cents, although they are a business, and I don't think
they're doing it entirely out of the kindness of their corporate hearts.
On 17/09/12 16:05, Scott Howell wrote:
> David,
> True, but my point is that although a small portion of the overall sales, APple still considers this segment worth the investment. I would love to know what the real numbers are across all Apple products including the Macs.
> On Sep 17, 2012, at 4:19 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Do not consider 100,000 iPhones to blind folk to be much of a market in this case. This number represents 0.3% of 1 quarter year of Apple's iPhone sales, but includes all models of iPhones for the past 3 years. In other words, if Apple were to stop supporting VO, they wouldn't even notice the tiny bump to their profits. Apple is not supporting concepts of universal access for their bottom line.
I agree with everything you said. I never meant to imply that any one
was doing as much as Apple. I just wanted to point out that their are
other companies who do have a commitment to accessibility.
Furthermore, I think part of Apple's justification was related to
governmental regulations (not unlike IBM's and Google's) and the fact
that there was a time when there was no screen reader for any Apple
products. MS may not have had a screen reader themselves, but they could
point to 3rd party screen readers at a time when Apple didn't even have
that option.
Again, I don't mean to take anything away from Apple here. I'm not sure
how much governmental regulations played into their going after
accessibility, but I definitely feel like they're doing more than what
would minimally be required for them to bid on a government contract.
> I must differ with you about Apple's accessibility compared with other mainstream companies.
> Apple is unique in that they are making all of their physical products as accessible as possible (we cannot say all of their products since iCloud accessibility online is only partial).
> IBM would come closest to Apple's commitment with OS2, but Lotus products only became accessible after considerable social and legal pressure against IBM. That said, IBM developed Home Page Reader as an accessible web browser when it was needed.
> Google is trying to catch up to Apple's accessibility. I hope Google develops accessibility as a core corporate value, but they do not yet appear to be making all of their product / product lines accessible.
> Many other companies have dabbled in accessibility. Several of them give up after losing various amounts of moneys in accessibility-related projects. One example is Texas Instruments (if memory serves) who developed an interesting possibility for refreshable braille using light reactive polymers. A blindness organisation so completely trashed and ridiculed them that they stated they would never work on development around access again (as told to me by one of their VPs 12 years ago).
> Interestingly, Apple's touch-based screen-reader was criticised when it first came out by prominent blindness people. Fortunately, Apple ignored such comments the way they tend to ignore all of their critics.
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> On 18/09/2012, at 2:48, Christopher Chaltain <chalt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just two other points here. Accessibility like any other project may
>> have it's priority rise and fall as other projects priorities change or
>> as Apple perceives it's lead in the accessibility area growing or
>> shrinking. this is no different than any other project.
>> I agree that Apple has done a lot as a main stream company with respect
>> to accessibility, but I'm not positive that their investment is light
>> years ahead of other main stream companies. I know for example, Google
>> has quite a bit invested in accessibility right now between ChromeVox,
>> Android and their on line services, such as Google Docs. IBM also came
>> out with their own screen reader for OS/2, which I know is ancient
>> history, but their investment to accessibility has continued with
>> contributions to FireFox and the accessibility of products such as Lotus
>> Notes, Sametime and Symphony.
>> I also don't see Apple changing on a dime just because Steve Jobs is no
>> longer with them. Who knows how this will effect Apple in the long run,
>> but I'm sure he delegated some things before his death, and I'm sure
>> there are others at Apple who shared and understood his vision.
>> On 17/09/12 09:36, Marc Rocheleau wrote:
>>> Hey Scott,
>>> I totally understand what you mean. Like I said, I'm trying not to
>>> jump the gun or anything -- it's more a paranoia of mine than a valid
>>> fear. I fully acknowledge that Apple has too much money to lose if
>>> they drop accessibility from their products, especially with the
>>> communities that have been created online (such as this one) because
>>> of it.
>>> I think it's more a case of it feeling too good to be true still. No
>>> other mainstream companies provide this level of support for the
>>> blind/visually-impaired, imo, and sometimes it feels like the other
>>> shoe should be dropping at any second. I know Apple does it for money
>>> but I don't really care as long as I am getting value for my money.
>>> There's a reason I'm switching to an iMac in the coming months, after all. :)
>>> -Marc
>>> On 9/17/12, Scott Howell <scottn3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Marc,
>>>> Before folks go running off on a tangent about accessibility, Steve Jobs,
>>>> and so forth I think it is important to point out:
>>>> 1. Steve Jobs, although a great man, was not the exclusive determining
>>>> factor for Voiceover in Apple's products.
>>>> 2. Just because Steve has passed on does not mean Apple will abandon
>>>> accessibility.
>>>> 3. There has been articles posted by the U.S. Department of Treasury (a year
>>>> or two ago) that indicates there are over 100,000 blind/visually impaired
>>>> users of iPhones. Note iPhones and the article did not mention iPads etc.
>>>> 4. Apple has to balance accessibility against all the other projects that
>>>> are ongoing. There are resources dedicated to many projects and some
>>>> projects get more resources than others. Fact is accessibility may not get
>>>> the same level of resources as other projects; however, you have to
>>>> understand it is always a challenge trying to be sure resources are managed
>>>> in such a way to ensure overall mission/goals/objectives are addressed
>>>> without impacting the largest user community. I may not be explaining that
>>>> as well as I could, but the idea is you put the resources on whatever will
>>>> maximize profits and make no mistake that Apple is about making money. Oh
>>>> and I'm all for Apple making money and buckets of it. MOre money means more
>>>> resources and more resources means more likelihood accessibility gets
>>>> attention.
>>>> 5. Apple is the only "mainstream" company to my knowledge that has invested
>>>> so heavily into accessibility.
>>>> 6. A lot of developers have committed to making their apps accessible, so
>>>> accessibility has really gained such a considerable amount of attention that
>>>> there is support beyond even this community. You can bet if Apple ever
>>>> decided to drop accessibility, we would have a good deal of support.
>>>> I'm not lecturing you here Marc, but merely pointing out (because this comes
>>>> up on the list from time to time) that APple has committed to accessibility
>>>> and like any other aspect of software things get broken and hopefully fixed.
>>>> I think a lot of the issues we all have experienced from time to time and
>>>> still do in some cases is not being ignored. When you consider the size and
>>>> scope of a project such as iOS itself, you can imagine the number of people
>>>> working on such a project. Add to that the layers of management and
>>>> development protocols etc I'm not surprised that it takes a while to
>>>> address problems.
>>>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Marc Rocheleau <marcrochelea...@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Wow, I sincerely hope that app developers who use VoiceOver have been
>>>>> reporting these problems to Apple's accessibility team. This is
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>> -- >> Christopher (CJ)
>> chaltain at Gmail
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