OT: The so called "steep learning curve" of vim...

[meino....@gmx.de]

Hi,

it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...

I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...

I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
for the y-axis..
Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.

And watching this graph I would read it as
"Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."

So....why so many take this as a point of critic???

Using software which a needs a lot of time to learn
much lesser ... that is the problem I think...!

Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)

Best regards,
mcc

[Sven Guckes]

* <meino....@gmx.de> [2012-09-30 15:39]:

> it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
> Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...

oh my... here we go again...

> I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if
> I had to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
> I would take the time as measure for the x-axis
> and the amount of stuff I have learned about --
> for example -- vim as a measure for the y-axis..

it's been done:
page: http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/986/vim-vs-emacs-and-no-this-is-not-a-flame-war
link: http://mrozekma.com/editor-learning-curve.png

btw - the steepness of those curves all depend on what you think
a newbie should learn - and the time you'll give him for it. ;-)

Sven

--
what you should know about vi and vim:
(1) repeat with dot (2) number prefix
(3) command combinations (4) filter
(5) :g (global) and :s (substitute) commands
(6) undo+redo (7) visual mode and operators

[Chris Jones]

On Sun, Sep 30, 2012 at 09:37:34AM EDT, meino....@gmx.de wrote:

> Hi,

> it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
> Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
>
> I was thinking of this phrase and the graph I would draw if I had
> to show an example for such a "steep learning curve"...
>
> I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
> of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
> for the y-axis..
> Then I would draw that "steep learning curve" as an graph
> which goes -- say -- from 0,0 to 5,30.
>
> And watching this graph I would read it as
> "Using vim give one a great amount of knowledge in a very short time."

Precisely...

The nice thing is that the minute s/o mentions a steep learning curve in
relation to Vim, I know exactly what I'm dealing with and that it's time
to switch back to Vim's help files.

> So....why so many take this as a point of critic???

See above.. or refer to the wikipedia article.. :-)

[..]

CJ

--
Have a nice day!

[Tony Mechelynck]

A "steep" curve is meant to make you visualise climbing a mountainside,
where every step is an arduous effort. In that respect I would say (but
it is my private opinion) that Emacs, not Vim, has a steep learning
curve. Try as I may, even after finding how to do a certain thing with
Emacs, the next time I need the same command I have to look it up again.
And again. And again.

IOW, I'd suppose the y-axis is meant to represent the required effort,
and the x-axis what you have learnt: if the curve is steep, you need a
lot of effort to learn just the next single little thing.

With Vim, my take on the matter is that the learning curve is long
(there are many things to learn) but not steep (because the help is well
laid out, commands are easily learnt, and don't need an extraordinarily
big effort to remember): there is a long way to go from rank beginner to
Vim guru, but the individual steps along the way aren't hard (or don't
feel hard to me), especially now that the helphelp.txt helpfile (which
didn't yet exist when I came to Vim) summarizes in one place most of the
useful tricks to use when you get that needle-and-haystack feeling: you
know: �the paragraph I need is out there somewhere in that wonderful but
gigantic help; now how do I lay hands on it?� Well, even the answer to
that question is found in the help, at a place which is easy to find.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
5 out of 4 people have trouble with fractions.

[Gerald Klein]

I think I got that? I myself have found that any software that does to much for you give you less choice, the more it takes to learn the better the prize at the end (more control).

Yes?

--
You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

--

Gerald Klein DBA

Cont...@geraldklein.com

www.geraldklein.com

geraldklein.wordpress.com

j...@zognet.com

708-599-0352

Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.

Linux registered user #548580 

[meino....@gmx.de]

Gerald Klein <j...@zognet.com> [12-09-30 20:00]:

> Gerald Klein DBA****
>
> Cont...@geraldklein.com
>
> www.geraldklein.com <http://geraldklein.com/>****
>
> geraldklein.wordpress.com
>
> j...@zognet.com****
>
> 708-599-0352****

>
>
> Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.
>
> Linux registered user #548580
>

> --
> You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
> Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
> For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

Hi Gerald,

BROTHER!

yes YES YYYEEESSS!

You are abolutely right!

After years of computer experience I myself hate to be handled as a
totally newbie by certain operating system and certain software, which
in turn claimed to be "useable by intuition".
In this context "intuition" means "without the control of my mind".

That said I am happy that there is software like vim which appeals to my
mind instead to my intuition.

w!

Keep hacking!
mcc

[Gerald Klein]

Never got pinged before for top posting (or I didn't notice it) 

That said, All Hail 

Awesome, Ranger and VIM

Gerald Klein DBA

Cont...@geraldklein.com

www.geraldklein.com

geraldklein.wordpress.com

j...@zognet.com

708-599-0352

[Tim Chase]

On 09/30/12 08:37, meino....@gmx.de wrote:
> it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
> Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
>

> I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
> of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
> for the y-axis..
>

> Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)

I think the misinterpretation is that the x-axis should be labeled
"effort learning new stuff over time", not just "time"; and the
y-axis would be "productivity".

A "shallow" learning curve would then mean that, with minimal
effort, one achieves some corresponding level of productivity.

With Vim, the average user that hasn't gone through basic training
(vimtutor, reading man pages, etc) is usually pretty lost with
things as basic as quitting. So the graphs would look something like

Nano, other "easy" editors
P|
r|
o|
d|
u|
c|
t| . . Maxiumum editor capability . . . . . . .************
i| ****************
v| ****************
i| ********
t| ****
y|*
=+==========================================================
| Effort over time --->


cat
P|
r|
o|
d|
u|
c|
t|
i|
v|
i| . . Maxiumum editor capability . . . . . . . . . . . . .
t| ****
y|*
=+==========================================================
| Effort over time --->



Vim
P| **
r| **
o| **
d| *
u| *
c| *
t| *
i| *
v| * <-- the infamous steep curve
i| *
t| *
y| ***** <-- time spent learning before you can do anything
-+----------------------------------------------------------
| Effort over time --->

Emacs
P| **
r| **
o| **
d| **
u| **
c| **
t| **
i| **
v| **
i| **
t| **
y|**
-+----------------------------------------------------------
| Effort over time --->


-tim

[Tim Chase]

On 09/30/12 15:47, Tim Chase wrote:
> So the graphs would look something like...

As I pushed <send> I remembered stumbling across[1] with rather
similar graphs.

-tim

[1]
http://www.thejach.com/view/2012/07/vims_learning_curve_is_wrong

[Tony Mechelynck]

On 30/09/12 22:47, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 09/30/12 08:37, meino....@gmx.de wrote:
>> it is often said, taht certain software has a "steep learning curve".
>> Vi/vim is such an example for the use of this phrase...
>>
>> I would take the time as measure for the x-axis and the amount
>> of stuff I have learned about -- for example -- vim as a measure
>> for the y-axis..
>>
>> Or...what do I misinterpret here? ;)
>
> I think the misinterpretation is that the x-axis should be labeled
> "effort learning new stuff over time", not just "time"; and the
> y-axis would be "productivity".
>
> A "shallow" learning curve would then mean that, with minimal
> effort, one achieves some corresponding level of productivity.
>
> With Vim, the average user that hasn't gone through basic training
> (vimtutor, reading man pages, etc) is usually pretty lost with
> things as basic as quitting. So the graphs would look something like
>

[...]

>
> Vim
> P| **
> r| **
> o| **
> d| *
> u| *
> c| *
> t| *
> i| *
> v| * <-- the infamous steep curve
> i| *
> t| *
> y| ***** <-- time spent learning before you can do anything
> -+----------------------------------------------------------
> | Effort over time --->

[...]

How can it be "infamous" to suddenly become a lot more productive in no
time at all? (It's possible, let's say it suddenly all "clicks" and
makes sense in your mind.) Or maybe it's the part before that which is
"infamous", where it takes some non-negligible effort before you can do
anything at all? But then, why call it "steep" when one pictures it as
flat? No matter how I look at it, there's something I don't grok.

I would picture it this way:

^
| o
| o
| o
| o (2)
| o
| o
| o
| o
| ************* (1)
| ***************
| ****************
| ******* ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Your productivity takes off,
| ** / you literally start "running"
| ** / Learning by doing, in real conditions
| ** / (incl. learning-by-doing how to use the help)
E| * :
f| * :
f| * : Studying the vim-tutor
o| * : (OK, it takes some effort) (I suppose this is the so-called
r| * : "steep" learning curve, but puh-lease! Just studying the
t|* : included manual, and it would be too much?)
;o----------------------------------------------------------------------->
;; Productivity

(1) OK, I suppose there's a limit to how much you can do how fast, so
you stop here for a time: no additional effort, no additional productivity.
(2) But any time you want to study some more, or any time you put some
effort into combining stuff you already knew, you can increase your
productivity, maybe just a little at a time.

Best regards,
Tony.
--
Yes, but which self do you want to be?

[Gerald Klein]

What I think happens sometimes is that someone is perhaps is for the first time stuck with only his Linux tty and has to fix something. The only editor he has is vi/vim he knows how to pass a file as an argument. He opens the file and can't get it to edit or makes edits and can't close it.Swearing ensues, until he either figures it out or gives up, stating emphatically that he will never use that editor or "what the hell was that? How do people use that?" and another link in the chain is formed.

--
You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.
For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.php

--

[ping]

no matter what, I never understand "vim" & "emacs" part of that picture
- it doesn't make much sense. I think Tony's graph make more sense in
terms of "deep" , or , I think maybe this:


|
|
|productivity
|
|
| (VIM)
| |
| ++
| |
| ++
| |
| +-+
| |
| |
| |
| +-+
| |
| +-+
| |
| |
| +-+
| |
| +--+
|.......................................+.................(notepad)
| +----+
| +--+
| +-----+
| +-------+
| +------+
+----+ time/effort
+----------------------------------------------------------------->

On 10/01/2012 01:18 PM, Gerald Klein wrote:
> What I think happens sometimes is that someone is perhaps is for the
> first time stuck with only his Linux tty and has to fix something. The
> only editor he has is vi/vim he knows how to pass a file as an argument.
> He opens the file and can't get it to edit or makes edits and can't
> close it.Swearing ensues, until he either figures it out or gives up,
> stating emphatically that he will never use that editor or "what the
> hell was that? How do people use that?" and another link in the chain is
> formed.
>
> On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 12:07 PM, Tony Mechelynck
> <antoine.m...@gmail.com <mailto:antoine.m...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> On 30/09/12 22:47, Tim Chase wrote:
>
> On 09/30/12 08:37, meino....@gmx.de

> -+----------------------------__------------------------------

> ;o----------------------------__------------------------------__------------->

> ;; Productivity
>
> (1) OK, I suppose there's a limit to how much you can do how fast,
> so you stop here for a time: no additional effort, no additional
> productivity.
> (2) But any time you want to study some more, or any time you put
> some effort into combining stuff you already knew, you can increase
> your productivity, maybe just a little at a time.
>
> Best regards,
> Tony.
> --
> Yes, but which self do you want to be?
>
> --
> You received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.
> Do not top-post! Type your reply below the text you are replying to.

> For more information, visit http://www.vim.org/maillist.__php
> <http://www.vim.org/maillist.php>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Gerald Klein DBA____
>
> Cont...@geraldklein.com <mailto:Cont...@geraldklein.com>
>
> www.geraldklein.com <http://geraldklein.com/>____
>
> geraldklein.wordpress.com <http://geraldklein.wordpress.com>
>
> j...@zognet.com <mailto:j...@zognet.com>____
>
> 708-599-0352____

>
>
> Arch Awesome, Ranger & Vim the coding triple threat.
>
> Linux registered user #548580
>
>
>

[Boyko Bantchev]

In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to simple
albeit new concepts? Highly improbable. Are they not learning to
use many other and much more complex computer programs and their
ever changing new versions?
I remember I moved to Vim after using for years a very different
family of text editors (Kedit and THE) with which I was greatly
efficient. Yet, it only took a very short period of time and no
serious effort to change my view of text editing and my work habits.
Steep learning curve? Oh, please ...

[Tim Chase]

On 10/01/12 14:17, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
> is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
> potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to simple
> albeit new concepts?

I'm pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when
confronted with the editor without any previous experience.

A newbie user can approach Nano and see the "these are the things
you can do" at the bottom, as well as how to obtain help; or Notepad
and see that it offers the standard File/Edit/Help menu options to
click on. In both, typing does exactly what is expected: it enters
text.

In Vim, yes, the opening screen of a new editing session does point
to how to obtain help. But (1) if you invoke it on a filename (or
have $EDITOR or $VISUAL unset and another application uses vi(m) as
the default), you don't see the "here's how you get help", and (2)
while arrow keys in most cases, typing as one is accustomed to doing
in other text-editing programs (whether Notepad, Word, an email
client, or even just a text-entry box in a browser) doesn't have the
expected behavior.

So the "curve is steep" indicates that you have to read *some*
instructions before you can likely even do _anything_. Yes, vim
offers good tutorials like vimtutor and there are plenty of other
good tutorials and cheat-sheets a mere google away, but it does
require _some_ up-front learning.

-tim

[Charlie Kester]

On 10/01/2012 12:48 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 10/01/12 14:17, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
>> In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
>> is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
>> potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to simple
>> albeit new concepts?
>
> I'm pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when
> confronted with the editor without any previous experience.
>
> A newbie user can approach Nano and see the "these are the things
> you can do" at the bottom, as well as how to obtain help; or Notepad
> and see that it offers the standard File/Edit/Help menu options to
> click on. In both, typing does exactly what is expected: it enters
> text.
>

But the thing is, for the kind of users vim is aimed at, a text editor
isn't the kind of tool that is used so infrequently that the user is
always stuck at the newbie stage.

I think there's a place for "user-friendly" or "intuitively obvious"
applications, but it's for things that you don't use every day and
therefore don't have a chance to develop any "muscle memory" or other
expertise. A disk recovery app, for example, needs that kind of
interface because it's aimed at a problem that hopefully doesn't come up
very often. But when it does we're already frustrated and don't want to
have to learn how to use an arcane piece of software.

A software developer, on the other hand, spends a large portion of his
time in his text editor. It's his "home base." What Alan Cooper once
called a "sovereign app." With apps like that, what's wanted is an
interface that doesn't insist on calling attention to itself, but
instead recedes into the background so the user can focus all of his
attention on the task. Otherwise it's like trying to play the piano
while looking at your hands instead of the sheetmusic (or hearing the
song in your head.)

People who don't work with text all that much or very often can be quite
content with Nano, Notepad, or even simpler interfaces. You don't need
vim to send text messages or tweets!

But other people find those "user-friendly" apps too confining, and
almost as awkward to use as an on-screen keyboard to be pecked at with a
stylus.

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 15:04:15 -0700, Charlie Kester said:
> On 10/01/2012 12:48 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
> > On 10/01/12 14:17, Boyko Bantchev wrote:
> >> In my personal opinion, saying that "Vim's learning curve is steep"
> >> is nothing but a gross exaggeration. Why should it be? Are Vim's
> >> potential users computer illiterates, incapable of adapting to
> >> simple albeit new concepts?
> >
> > I'm pretty sure it stems on how productive one can be when
> > confronted with the editor without any previous experience.
> >
> > A newbie user can approach Nano and see the "these are the things
> > you can do" at the bottom, as well as how to obtain help; or Notepad
> > and see that it offers the standard File/Edit/Help menu options to
> > click on. In both, typing does exactly what is expected: it enters
> > text.
> >
>
> But the thing is, for the kind of users vim is aimed at, a text
> editor isn't the kind of tool that is used so infrequently that the
> user is always stuck at the newbie stage.

This is true, but it doesn't mean that saying Vim's learning curve is
steep is a gross exaggeration. The fact is, that for X amount of time,
the Vim newbie will be helpless with Vim. That's not true of Notepad or
GEdit.

>
> I think there's a place for "user-friendly" or "intuitively obvious"
> applications, but it's for things that you don't use every day and
> therefore don't have a chance to develop any "muscle memory" or other
> expertise. A disk recovery app, for example, needs that kind of
> interface because it's aimed at a problem that hopefully doesn't come
> up very often. But when it does we're already frustrated and don't
> want to have to learn how to use an arcane piece of software.

This is absolutely true, but doesn't refute Vim's steep learning curve.

>
> A software developer, on the other hand, spends a large portion of
> his time in his text editor. It's his "home base." What Alan Cooper
> once called a "sovereign app." With apps like that, what's wanted is
> an interface that doesn't insist on calling attention to itself, but
> instead recedes into the background so the user can focus all of his
> attention on the task. Otherwise it's like trying to play the piano
> while looking at your hands instead of the sheetmusic (or hearing the
> song in your head.)

:-) This is certainly true, but ...

>
> People who don't work with text all that much or very often can be
> quite content with Nano, Notepad, or even simpler interfaces. You
> don't need vim to send text messages or tweets!

True...

>
> But other people find those "user-friendly" apps too confining, and
> almost as awkward to use as an on-screen keyboard to be pecked at
> with a stylus.

True. That's exactly why we're all using Vim. Once you learn it, it's
*much* easier (and faster) than "user-friendly" apps.

Everything you write in this email is absolutely true, but none of it
supports the poster who claimed that talk of Vim's steep learning curve
is a gross exaggeration. There's going to be a certain amount of time
during which a brand new Vim user is completely nonproductive in Vim,
because all he's doing is learning, not using. The length of that
nonproductive time depends on a lot of details, including how well and
quickly one links specific keystrokes to specific tasks. Correct me if
I'm wrong, but when I use Vim, my fingers do the thinking -- my head
has no clue.

The other thing I'd point out is that I have a feeling those who
perceive Vim's learning curve the steepest might be those like me, who
learned on vi, and only came to Vim after gaining proficiency on vi. In
my opinion, vi has a steeper learning curve than Vim -- no blocking, no
mouse, no menu, no cursor or pageup keys, no helpful tools to do
something you have no idea how to do. My memories of learning vi might
play a role in my opinion that Vim's learning curve is extremely steep.

SteveT

Steve Litt * http://www.troubleshooters.com/
* http://twitter.com/stevelitt
Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance

[Boyko Bantchev]

On 2 October 2012 03:25, Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote:
> The fact is, that for X amount of time,
> the Vim newbie will be helpless with Vim. That's not true of Notepad or
> GEdit.

How is that a fact? If one only does in Vim the kind of "editing"
that they do in Notepad (e.g. when using Vim in easy mode), would
they even notice a difference?

> There's going to be a certain amount of time
> during which a brand new Vim user is completely nonproductive in Vim,
> because all he's doing is learning, not using.

To say that Vim, as a particular text editor, has a steep learning
curve, would mean that there are other editors that let their users
do similar things but require no or little learning. What are those
editors?

I strongly suspect that what is being perceived as "Vim's steepness"
is in fact the difficulty of learning to edit text efficaciously and
efficiently. That difficulty is not somehow specific to Vim alone,
but is essential to the task it solves. I'll agree that Vim has a
steep learning curve when I'm shown a text editor with similar
capabilities and a 'gradual' learning curve. Until then, I consider
it a myth, and one that is harmful to Vim's popularity.

[Marc Weber]

vim & emacs: Well - the whole discussion is pointless because we're not
talking about "what should be learned".

Even notepad can do things Vim can't: Open registry dump files!

So use the right tool for a job. And if you want to learn about Vim -
and you're helpless - then ask somebody knowing how to find the tool, or
use the website. Its not a Vim problem. Yes - at the beginning I didn't
knew how to quit Vim - yet I learned it. I even was too dump to
understand the press :q because ":" is often used as separator - and I
only experienced the Windows world before.

You all say productivity of Vim is great - well - yes after writing tons
of plugins (depending on what you do) - and even then you feel limited.
Or why do people start writing eclim like bridges (talking about
programming).

Now is Eclipse more productive than Vim?
Eclipse can highlight used and unused #ifdef regions, Vim cannot
(AFAIK).
Thus given infinite amount of time - which tool will be more productive
if your task is to understand fast which lines are actually used?

So don't forget that there are also other tools - and use what it fits
your needs.

And if you're worried that new users fail to get started with Vim - then
teach them how to use google instead of telling them where to find help.

Linux users will soon learn that there is "man", Windows users are used
to F1 and a Help menu - and everything exists and works.

However

:helpgrep mailinglist does not show anything - WHY?
:helpgrep irc shows nothing (but my own documentation of my plugins! [1])
:helpgrep chat (same)
:h community (does not exist)
:helpgrep community (one hit: on the netbeans page)

But its us helping new users and giving them those hints

Should we fix that?

So what about adding a help file about the community containing pointers
to the internet relay chat, and the mailinglist?

If "productivity" was the thing you want to measure - and if you're a
writer - and think "Vim is the tool I always tried to learn" - then also
have a look at plover: http://plover.stenoknight.com/
It may allow you to write with 200WPMs and more after some training.
Maybe that's providing a bigger "productivity boost" - than all Vim
knowledge.

So how do you feel about the community? Should we be mentioned in the
help files?

How much of you (readers of this mailinglist) would have benefited
knowing about this mailinglist or the #vim irc chat room earlier?

Marc Weber

[1]
vim-addon-haskell.txt|40 col 3| irc.freenode.net: MarcWeber
vim-addon-manager-additional-documentation.txt|1147 col 21| Of course #git on irc.freenode.net is willing to help if you have trouble
vim-addon-manager-getting-started.txt|38 col 6| Join irc.freenode.net, /join #vim. Ask there. VAM has many users
tovl.txt|145 col 16| MarcWeber on irc.freenode.org or mail: marco-...@gmx.de
lang_haskell.txt|133 col 16| MarcWeber on irc.freenode.org or mail: marco-...@gmx.de

[David H. Lynch Jr.]

Vi is present on nearly every *nix system in existance, from big
servers to whatever is in your refridgerator. It is also on OSX.
Vi is essentially a subset of vim. If you know vim you know vi. If you
constantly need to work on random systems anywhere - you are stuck
knowing the basics of Vi.
I think Vi without Vim is pretty bad as an editor - but I can still use
it. My fingers know what to do.
There is nothing else this is true of.
Vim is Vi on steroids.It is the default Vi in many places, but where it
isn't or windows where there is no decent text editor, Vim can easily be
installed when you are going to be working for more than a few
minutes.

I personally do not use but a fraction of the power of Vim, I have been
using it for almost a decade and I am a novice. some things are hard to
learn. but the power of even my limited knowledge is enormous. Sure
there are other editors that are really good. I have used and loved many
others, and some were friendlier. But none were everywhere.
So fine it takes a long time to get to the point where you can change
the 3rd to last word in each line to uppercase, prepend the first word
in the line, and append the line number in octal. But I am sure someone
here can tell you how to do that.

If you are going to live in eclipse and no where else - then you
probably should learn eclipses built in editor.
There are other editors that will be the best choice for other specific
scenarios.
My work dictates that I must know Vi fairly well. And Vim is available
- usually the default Vi in most of the places I work.
I don't care about the learning curve. I care more about the fact that
there are so many other tools like email, or ... that have their own
limited editing capability built in that do not work like Vim. Anyone
have a vim plugin for eclipse ? ThunderBird ?

[Charles Campbell]

Marc Weber wrote:
> <snip>

> Eclipse can highlight used and unused #ifdef regions, Vim cannot
> (AFAIK).
>

<snip>

Try Michael Gedde's "ifdef.vim" plugin --
http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=7 .

Regards,
C Campbell

[Christian Brabandt]

Hi Marc!

On Di, 02 Okt 2012, Marc Weber wrote:

> vim & emacs: Well - the whole discussion is pointless because we're not
> talking about "what should be learned".
>
> Even notepad can do things Vim can't: Open registry dump files!

Why can't Vim?

regards,
Christian
--
Wenn der kluge Mann mit dem Kopf durch die Wand will, so benutzt er dazu
einen anderen.

[Marc Weber]

Excerpts from Christian Brabandt's message of Tue Oct 02 21:29:28 +0200 2012:

> > Even notepad can do things Vim can't: Open registry dump files!
> Why can't Vim?

Hmm you're right. You could write a decode and use it (like showing
hexdumps ..) - still I use bvi whenever I want to edit binary files.

Try Win + R -> "regedit" click on any folder -> File export -> save as
.reg file. Then you have a binary format which you can open in Vim but
which is unreadable for humans. Notepad decodes it.

I hope nobody got me wrong - I love Vim - and almost all the time half
of my processes are running Vim instances .. Still there is a point when
you hit a "frontier" - when tools are missing.

Eg I like the WYSIWYG behaviour of lyx which Vim will never provide
(unless a lot of development takes place)
which is why I want to say: think about learning curves as much as you
want - but don't miss domain specific solutions beside Vim if
appropriate.

Marc Weber

[John Beckett]

Marc Weber wrote:
> Try Win + R -> "regedit" click on any folder -> File export
> -> save as .reg file. Then you have a binary format which you
> can open in Vim but which is unreadable for humans. Notepad
> decodes it.

On Windows (or most systems for that matter), your vimrc should
probably start with the following two lines:

set nocompatible
set encoding=utf-8

And, there should be nothing which sets fenc or fencs
(the 'fileencoding' and 'fileencodings' options).

You might have something to set fencs, but the defaults have
been sufficient for my modest needs.

With the above, Vim can correctly read a .reg file. After the
file is open, the following command shows that the .reg file
has file encoding utf-16le:

:set fenc?

John

[richard emberson]

Both Vim and GVim have menubars with menus and submenus and, in
addition, a popup menu that, at least for a very beginner, covers
(maybe) 90% of what they may want to do (once they've got
basic modal editing down).
Though, it is also true that they will quickly out grow the
menus and rapidly want to do something that requires a little
deeper knowledge.

Richard

--
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

[Marc Weber]

> > can open in Vim but which is unreadable for humans. Notepad
> > decodes it.

sorry - the binary output only happens if you export HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT
this way.

I'm going to stop participating in this thread for now.

Marc Weber