The Google Groups mailing list still has problems that may be preventing people from joining.
I've exchanged some emails with Tim Chase who regularly posted on the old mailing lists.
Tim has tried a couple of times to subscribe, but he has not received nessages, and he cannot post.
I gave Tim the standard advice: - Try unsubscribing and subscribing again. - Some say they had to click the web link in the confirmation email. - Others say they had to reply to the confirmation email. - You could use a Google account. [get real!] - Maybe some ISPs block Google Groups mail as spam? [evidence?]
There's also the complication of x...@vim.org vs xxx@googlegroups.com vs the Google Groups web form.
Folks - this is not good enough! Tim is a smart guy with a valid email account. If he can't subscribe, it's quite likely that many others are having similar problems.
We need a couple of suitably-experienced people to do some quality tests using several spare email accounts. Is any support from Google Groups available? What about other Google Groups - do they have problems?
Can we email a sample of other people who seem to be missing, and ask if they have tried to subscribe but are having trouble? How many subscribers were on the old list (Google Groups says vim_use has 458 members)?
After some investigation, perhaps Bram could broadcast another explanatory email to the old vim.org mailing list subscribers.
BTW the main reason I care about this is that I've been waiting for the list to build up so I can start bombing it with requests to fix some of the Vim Tips at the wiki:
---Info from Tim--- I am subscribed [to vim_use], and my settings are set to "Email" (rather than "None", "Summary", or "Digest").
---Mail received by Tim--- Hello [Tim's email address]
We recently received a request from you to subscribe to the group vim_use.
We know you are excited about this group, but it looks like you are already subscribed to it.
---Mail received by Tim when he posts--- You do not have permission to post to group vim_use. You may need to join the group before being allowed to post, or this group may not be open to posting.
John Beckett wrote: > The Google Groups mailing list still has problems that may be preventing > people from joining.
> I've exchanged some emails with Tim Chase who regularly posted on the old > mailing lists.
> Tim has tried a couple of times to subscribe, but he has not received > nessages, and he cannot post.
> I gave Tim the standard advice: > - Try unsubscribing and subscribing again. > - Some say they had to click the web link in the confirmation email. > - Others say they had to reply to the confirmation email. > - You could use a Google account. [get real!] > - Maybe some ISPs block Google Groups mail as spam? [evidence?]
> There's also the complication of x...@vim.org vs xxx@googlegroups.com vs the > Google Groups web form.
> Folks - this is not good enough! Tim is a smart guy with a valid email > account. If he can't subscribe, it's quite likely that many others are > having similar problems.
> We need a couple of suitably-experienced people to do some quality tests > using several spare email accounts. Is any support from Google Groups > available? What about other Google Groups - do they have problems?
> Can we email a sample of other people who seem to be missing, and ask if > they have tried to subscribe but are having trouble? How many subscribers > were on the old list (Google Groups says vim_use has 458 members)?
> After some investigation, perhaps Bram could broadcast another explanatory > email to the old vim.org mailing list subscribers.
> BTW the main reason I care about this is that I've been waiting for the list > to build up so I can start bombing it with requests to fix some of the Vim > Tips at the wiki:
> ---Info from Tim--- > I am subscribed [to vim_use], and my settings are set to "Email" (rather > than "None", "Summary", or "Digest").
> ---Mail received by Tim--- > Hello [Tim's email address]
> We recently received a request from you to subscribe to the group vim_use.
> We know you are excited about this group, but it looks like you are already > subscribed to it.
> ---Mail received by Tim when he posts--- > You do not have permission to post to group vim_use. > You may need to join the group before being allowed to post, or this group > may not be open to posting.
> John
I've been having similar problems when I tried to post with a non-Gmail address. My Google Groups account knows about two addresses of mine: @gmail.com and @skynet.be. I've set the Gmail one as the one to which list mail is sent, because otherwise I don't get list mail reliably (I suspect Skynet is treating Google Groups as spam at least part of the time). Now the default from-address in my mail client is @skynet.be (it also gets mail from Gmail using POP). When replying to a list message, the identity is set to @gmail.com because that's where the message I'm replying to was addressed, aind it works OK. But when creating a new post, I need to be extra-super-hyper careful to set my identity to @gmail.com, or the message will be sent from @skynet.be and -- although that is my secondary address at Google Groups and I can even log in to Google Groups using it as my username -- I will get the "You aren't allowed to post" bounce.
If I were Tim, I would make sure that I have a gmail address, then point my browser to http://groups.google.com, and change the group settings to send mail to that @gmail.com address. Then I would make sure to use @gmail.com in the from-line when trying to post.
One hitch about browsers and the Google settings page: the Google browser-detection routine is faulty. It checks the name by which a browser announces itself, not the features which the browser supports. This means that "Firefox" is recognised (and presumably "Netscape" too), but "SeaMonkey" isn't, and neither are recent alpha and beta versions of Firefox because they call themselves "DeerPark", "BonEcho", "GranParadiso" or "Minefield" instead of "Firefox". I would expect that Debian's "IceWeasel" and "IceApe" (de-branded versions of Firefox and SeaMonkey respectively) wouldn't be recognised either; and also not the pre-SeaMonkey Mozilla Suite, which simply hasn't got any brand name at the end of its UA string. All of these use the same layout engine -- Mozilla's Gecko. The workaround (for these Gecko browsers) is to go to about:config and make sure that the user-agent string includes something that looks like a Firefox version. For versions built on Gecko 1.8 and above (as shown after rv: in the default user-agent string) you can do this by going to about:config, creating a new String preference named (for example) general.useragent.extra.google and setting its value to (for example) Firefox/2.0.0.5 (Gecko 1.7, as used among others in pre-SeaMonkey Mozilla and in Firefox 1.0.x, is obsolete anyway: if you're still using it, you should upgrade, if only to benefit of the security and stability bug fixes which have landed since then.)
Best regards, Tony. -- Do you realize how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?
On 8/8/07, John Beckett <johnb.beck...@gmail.com> wrote:
> - You could use a Google account. [get real!]
One could get a Google account and set it up to forward the mail. Then setup the whichever client one uses to reply to those mails using the gmail address. This should work, in theory ....
> John Beckett wrote: > > The Google Groups mailing list still has problems that may be preventing > > people from joining.
> > I've exchanged some emails with Tim Chase who regularly posted on the old > > mailing lists.
> > Tim has tried a couple of times to subscribe, but he has not received > > nessages, and he cannot post.
> > I gave Tim the standard advice: > > - Try unsubscribing and subscribing again. > > - Some say they had to click the web link in the confirmation email. > > - Others say they had to reply to the confirmation email. > > - You could use a Google account. [get real!] > > - Maybe some ISPs block Google Groups mail as spam? [evidence?]
> > There's also the complication of x...@vim.org vs xxx@googlegroups.com vs the > > Google Groups web form.
> > Folks - this is not good enough! Tim is a smart guy with a valid email > > account. If he can't subscribe, it's quite likely that many others are > > having similar problems.
> > John
> If I were Tim, I would make sure that I have a gmail address, then point my > browser to http://groups.google.com, and change the group settings to send > mail to that @gmail.com address. Then I would make sure to use @gmail.com in > the from-line when trying to post.
> Best regards, > Tony.
I agree with John, the current situation is not good enough. Furthermore, forcing people to get gmail accounts is not acceptable IMHO.
I, too, had significant problems subscribing, but have managed to do so after repeated failures, and I did not need a gmail account to subscribe.
What did _not_ work: email to vim-subscr...@vim.org, then reply to the confirmation message. I did receive the "Your subscription was successful" message, and subsequent attempts to re-subscribe without first unsubscribing gave a "you are already subscribed" response. I did not get any list mail, even though a sufficient quantity of messages showed up in the archive over several days. I did not attempt to post, so I don't know if that would have worked, but from Tim's and Tony's experience, I doubt it would.
I tried unsubscribing (which appeared to work) and re-subscribing the same way, and got the same results. I did this several times over a couple weeks, waiting for list mail each time.
*****
What _did_ work: email to vim-subscr...@vim.org (and vim-dev-subscribe) and then when the confirmation email arrived, instead of replying to the message, I used the web link. I started getting list mail immediately. (And assuming this message gets through, I am also able to post to the list. ;-) )
*****
I am cross-posting to vim-experiment@googlegroups.com so that anyone still lurking on that list while trying to subscribe to this list will see this message.
However, I think people should complain to Google about their email-based subscription failing. If someone knows how to get the word to someone at Google who will actually do something about it, let the list know (if a larger volume of complaints will get things moving faster).
On 08/08/2007, Marvin Renich <m...@renich.org> wrote:
> [...] > > I agree with John, the current situation is not good > enough. Furthermore, forcing people to get gmail accounts > is not acceptable IMHO.
And, on a related note, if you are using gmail for your email check the spam folder. I've had ~10 vim_use emails flagged as spam by gmail so far. --Antony
John Beckett wrote: > The Google Groups mailing list still has problems that may be preventing > people from joining.
> I've exchanged some emails with Tim Chase who regularly posted on the old > mailing lists.
> Tim has tried a couple of times to subscribe, but he has not received > nessages, and he cannot post.
> I gave Tim the standard advice: > - Try unsubscribing and subscribing again. > - Some say they had to click the web link in the confirmation email. > - Others say they had to reply to the confirmation email. > - You could use a Google account. [get real!] > - Maybe some ISPs block Google Groups mail as spam? [evidence?]
> There's also the complication of x...@vim.org vs xxx@googlegroups.com vs the > Google Groups web form.
> Folks - this is not good enough! Tim is a smart guy with a valid email > account. If he can't subscribe, it's quite likely that many others are > having similar problems.
> We need a couple of suitably-experienced people to do some quality tests > using several spare email accounts. Is any support from Google Groups > available? What about other Google Groups - do they have problems?
> Can we email a sample of other people who seem to be missing, and ask if > they have tried to subscribe but are having trouble? How many subscribers > were on the old list (Google Groups says vim_use has 458 members)?
> After some investigation, perhaps Bram could broadcast another explanatory > email to the old vim.org mailing list subscribers.
> BTW the main reason I care about this is that I've been waiting for the list > to build up so I can start bombing it with requests to fix some of the Vim > Tips at the wiki:
> ---Info from Tim--- > I am subscribed [to vim_use], and my settings are set to "Email" (rather > than "None", "Summary", or "Digest").
> ---Mail received by Tim--- > Hello [Tim's email address]
> We recently received a request from you to subscribe to the group vim_use.
> We know you are excited about this group, but it looks like you are already > subscribed to it.
> ---Mail received by Tim when he posts--- > You do not have permission to post to group vim_use. > You may need to join the group before being allowed to post, or this group > may not be open to posting.
We are aware of the problem. Unfortunately, it's not yet clear what the cause of the problem is, which is the first step towards fixing it.
It does help if you collect a complete log of what you did when it failed to work. That includes: - The full messages that were exchanged, including all headers (this makes it possible to see the timestamps, message IDs and machines involved). - A complete description of what you did with the times when you did it.
Send this to me in an attachment or archive. It currently works fine for me, so I can't reproduce it.
Hopefully we can then figure out where the problem happens exactly. Since it happens to only a few people I suspect there is one specific server that is behaving erratically. If we can pin down which server it is that already helps a lot.
-- From "know your smileys": <|-) Chinese <|-( Chinese and doesn't like these kind of jokes
Bram wrote: > It does help if you collect a complete log of what you did > when it failed to work. That includes: > - The full messages that were exchanged, including all headers > (this makes it possible to see the timestamps, message IDs > and machines involved). > - A complete description of what you did with the times when > you did it.
> Send this to me in an attachment or archive. It currently > works fine for me, so I can't reproduce it.
Catch 22. The people who have problems are frustrated and confused by all the things they've tried. They may not have time to go that one step further.
I'm using gmail with no trouble. I have one specific example of a very competent person (Tim Chase) who has tried and failed to subscribe using a valid email account.
We could argue that it's Tim's problem - if he wants to join the list he can always use gmail.
But surely the community can do better? I don't have the resources to properly investigate the matter, but I imagine someone here would do it if encouraged. We need some test accounts that fail (I've tried two, and they both work).
Can anyone throw some light on these issues: - Do other Google Groups have problems? - How many subscribers were on the old list compared with now? - Can we email a sample of other people who seem to be missing?
Bram said "We are aware of the problem". How about putting a separate page on vim.org with a problem overview, and put a prominent link from the mailing list page. At the moment, there is no hint of a problem at http://www.vim.org/maillist.php and it must be very frustrating for anyone who is having trouble.
If it would help, I would be happy to coordinate responses and keep an up to date summary of what is known, and what is recommended. A page on the wiki would be good for that.
On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 11:17:00 -0400, Marvin Renich <m...@renich.org> wrote:
> What did _not_ work: email to vim-subscr...@vim.org, then reply to the > confirmation message. I did receive the "Your subscription was > successful" message, and subsequent attempts to re-subscribe without > first unsubscribing gave a "you are already subscribed" response.
I tried that, and although the confirmation message arrived I received no response when I replied to it, and no list messages. Trying to confirm my subscription using the http link in the message resulted in the patronising "we know you're excited/already subscribed" page.
> What _did_ work: email to vim-subscr...@vim.org (and vim-dev-subscribe) > and then when the confirmation email arrived, instead of replying to the > message, I used the web link. I started getting list mail immediately. > (And assuming this message gets through, I am also able to post to the > list. ;-) )
That's what I did, also successfully.
Those were the second and third things I tried. My first attempt to subscribe was before I knew about the email method, so I tried to create an account with Google groups. It never sent out an account confirmation message. My ISP has no anti-spam filtering in place, so I'm confident that the messages were never sent. (My ISP does have spam _tagging_, but all messages are allowed through whether they're considered to be spam or not.) I tried a couple more times but no message was sent.
On Aug 8, 4:10 pm, Bram Moolenaar <B...@moolenaar.net> wrote:
> Hopefully we can then figure out where the problem happens exactly. > Since it happens to only a few people I suspect there is one specific > server that is behaving erratically. If we can pin down which server it > is that already helps a lot.
This is what I received while trying the vim-unsubscr...@vim.org address.
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- <vim-unsubscr...@vim.org> (reason: 554 5.7.1 Service unavailable; Client host [207.115.20.53] blocked using spam.dnsbl.sorbs.net; Spam Received See: http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml?207.115.20.53)
----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to ice.42.org.:
>>> DATA
<<< 554 5.7.1 Service unavailable; Client host [207.115.20.53] blocked using spam.dnsbl.sorbs.net; Spam Received See: http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml?207.115.20.53 554 5.0.0 Service unavailable <<< 554 5.5.1 Error: no valid recipients
I was able to subscribe / unsubscribe just fine using the vim_use- subscribe@googlegroups.com address.
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