Improvements for vim.org/scripts

[Thomas Koch]

Hi,

by revising my .vim dir and creating a list of usefull vim scripts for
my collegues, I started thinking about vim.org/scripts. Let me assume,
that the many high quality scripts are a very important part of vim,
which makes vim the almighty tool you use every day.

Then the quality of vim in a whole depends on the quality not only of
individual scripts, but also on the ease of installing, updating,
maintaining and finding scripts.

The current vim.org/scripts site seems to have several critical flaws,
IMHO:

* you won't get informed of updates for your scripts
* collaboration on script development is next to impossible, because
* I can't upload a new version, must open a new script page
* No script I saw is under version control
* Many scripts lack licence informations
* scripts can not be browsed online, there are only downloadable
zip/rar/tar.gz/vba/vim
* User Feedback on scripts is not possible: no comments, mailing list to
much a barrier
* No issue tracker

Do you agree with me on this points? Should we do something about it?
Should we do build a better vim.org/scripts? Who would like to join the
effort?

Things that could be done:
* save scripts in a VCS
* add a webforum to each scripts page
* add an issue tracker
* add OpenId to vim.org
* politely inforce a default licence for scripts
* allow people to upload patches to scripts they have not initially
created

Best regards,
--
Thomas Koch, Software Developer
http://www.koch.ro

Young Media Concepts GmbH
Sonnenstr. 4
CH-8280 Kreuzlingen
Switzerland

Tel +41 (0)71 / 508 24 86
Fax +41 (0)71 / 560 53 89
Mobile +49 (0)170 / 753 89 16
Web www.ymc.ch

[François Beaubert]

Great idea !!!

I've see something in this spirit, have a look at:

http://vimpi.net/

But may I add another idea to your post: why not integrate a plugins
manager directly within vim to show you the plugins which could be
upgradeable or downloadable, etc

2008/10/22 Thomas Koch <tho...@koch.ro>:

[Thomas Koch]

Hi François,

there already is a plugin manager in vim: vimball. It does not support
automatic updating yet.

But even if vimball could update your scripts, it wouldn't be the best
solution. Debian want you to use apt to update vim scripts and I
consider this a good thing. So to make everybody happy, we need a good
upstream and so everybody can update his system as he likes.

Best regards,

Thomas Koch

[Charles Campbell]

François Beaubert wrote:
> Great idea !!!
>
> I've see something in this spirit, have a look at:
>
> http://vimpi.net/
>
> But may I add another idea to your post: why not integrate a plugins
> manager directly within vim to show you the plugins which could be
> upgradeable or downloadable, etc
>

Are you familiar with getscript.vim's :GLVS command? It seems to me
that it does some of that already, albeit only for those plugins that
you've expressed an interest in.

Regards,
Chip Campbell

[François Beaubert]

> But even if vimball could update your scripts, it wouldn't be the best
> solution.

why ... don't know that vimball could be used to update script

>Debian want you to use apt to update vim scripts and I
> consider this a good thing. So to make everybody happy, we need a good
> upstream and so everybody can update his system as he likes.
>

Indeed, an apt-get install my-favorite-vim-script would be amazing !
But for windows users perhaps not the best solution

Jedit, emacs, komodo have those kind of feature
IMHO it could be a great enhancement for vim too

Great idea Thomas

Regards

[François Beaubert]

just remember that there is

getscript.vba.gz from Dr Chip

see it at http://mysite.verizon.net/astronaut/vim/index.html#VimFuncs

2008/10/22 François Beaubert <francois...@gmail.com>:

[François Beaubert]

oop's I'm too late

[Tony Mechelynck]

On 22/10/08 21:23, François Beaubert wrote:
> just remember that there is
>
> getscript.vba.gz from Dr Chip
>
> see it at http://mysite.verizon.net/astronaut/vim/index.html#VimFuncs

... which is now distributed with recent versions of Vim, as
$VIMRUNTIME/plugin/getscriptPlugin.vim,
$VIMRUNTIME/autoload/getscript.vim and $VIMRUNTIME/doc/pi_getscript.txt

Best regards,
Tony.
--
hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:
220. Your wife asks for sex and you tell her where to find you on IRC.

[toomln]

> Debian want you to use apt to update vim scripts and I
> consider this a good thing.

On reddit there was this reference to (eek)
http://upsilon.cc/~zack/blog/posts/2008/10/from_Vim_to_Emacs_-_part_1/
and from there to
http://packages.debian.org/sid/vim-addon-manager

Don't know if that's of any help.

[Caleb Cushing]

On 10/22/08, Thomas Koch <tho...@koch.ro> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> by revising my .vim dir and creating a list of usefull vim scripts for
> my collegues, I started thinking about vim.org/scripts. Let me assume,
> that the many high quality scripts are a very important part of vim,
> which makes vim the almighty tool you use every day.
>
> Then the quality of vim in a whole depends on the quality not only of
> individual scripts, but also on the ease of installing, updating,
> maintaining and finding scripts.
>
> The current vim.org/scripts site seems to have several critical flaws,
> IMHO:
>
> * you won't get informed of updates for your scripts

> * collaboration on script development is next to impossible, because
> * I can't upload a new version, must open a new script page

you mean you can't update someone elses script, I agree this is a
problem as I believe a large number of vim scripts are unmaintained.
and without comments we can't tell people we've forked it elsewhere.

> * No script I saw is under version control

sql iabbr 2 is :P but there is no way built in for vim.org

> * Many scripts lack licence informations

I'm guessing scripts are public domain unless otherwise stated.

> * scripts can not be browsed online, there are only downloadable
> zip/rar/tar.gz/vba/vim

I don't see this as a huge problem...

> * User Feedback on scripts is not possible: no comments, mailing list to
> much a barrier

definitely should have comments below scripts like mozilla has for plugins

> * No issue tracker

yeah something would be nice...

> Do you agree with me on this points? Should we do something about it?
> Should we do build a better vim.org/scripts? Who would like to join the
> effort?
>
> Things that could be done:
> * save scripts in a VCS
> * add a webforum to each scripts page
> * add an issue tracker
> * add OpenId to vim.org
> * politely inforce a default licence for scripts
> * allow people to upload patches to scripts they have not initially
> created

would it be impossible to make a new scripts page? or even just
consider offloading scripts somewhere else? I'm managing mine on
github.

--
Caleb Cushing

[Thomas Koch]

Hi,

there is a vimonline development site[1] on sourceforge. The bugtracker
there states, that the last time an issue was closed was at 2007-07-30
and the oldest open issue is from 2001-09-13.
Isn't it, that vim.org needs and deserves more attention to reflect the
greatness of VIM? Since I'm a webdeveloper I'd like to volunter to build
a fresh new vim.org site with all the features mentioned below.
But this should not be a one time one man effort but a planed team
effort. So who is the current responsible behind vim.org and who would
like to join the team?

One new idea for vim.org/scripts: tags for scripts

[1] http://vimonline.sourceforge.net/

Best regards,

Thomas Koch

--

[Anton Sharonov]

2008/10/26, Thomas Koch <tho...@koch.ro>:

[Richard Hartmann]

On Sun, Oct 26, 2008 at 18:02, Thomas Koch <tho...@koch.ro> wrote:

> So who is the current responsible behind vim.org and who would
> like to join the team?

Bram is, but he is on holidays, atm.

Richard

[Bram Moolenaar]

Thomas Koch wrote:

> by revising my .vim dir and creating a list of usefull vim scripts for
> my collegues, I started thinking about vim.org/scripts. Let me assume,
> that the many high quality scripts are a very important part of vim,
> which makes vim the almighty tool you use every day.
>
> Then the quality of vim in a whole depends on the quality not only of
> individual scripts, but also on the ease of installing, updating,
> maintaining and finding scripts.
>
> The current vim.org/scripts site seems to have several critical flaws,
> IMHO:

Overal good observations. A few comments below.

> * you won't get informed of updates for your scripts

My personal preference is not to get interrupted by "new thing
available" messages. They mostly distract me from what I was actually
doing. Typing some command to check for updates is usually more
convenient. And as others noted: this already exists. :help getscript.

> * collaboration on script development is next to impossible, because
> * I can't upload a new version, must open a new script page
> * No script I saw is under version control
> * Many scripts lack licence informations
> * scripts can not be browsed online, there are only downloadable
> zip/rar/tar.gz/vba/vim
> * User Feedback on scripts is not possible: no comments, mailing list to
> much a barrier
> * No issue tracker

Currently nobody is actively updating the PHP and MySQL code of
www.vim.org. I've been fixing problems, just because nobody else does
it. It would be great to have an active maintainer again.

Note that this requires knowledge of:
- PHP
- MySQL
- security issues
- spammers

Especially the "add comment" feature will be sensitive for spamming.
I also suspect we need to make the creation of a login more safe, it's
only a matter of time until a spammer writes a script to work around the
current simple procedure and starts uploading garbage.

> Do you agree with me on this points? Should we do something about it?
> Should we do build a better vim.org/scripts? Who would like to join the
> effort?
>
> Things that could be done:
> * save scripts in a VCS

This doesn't need to be on www.vim.org. You can do it on any separate
site and only upload the result to www.vim.org. That gives a much more
convenient way to control access for each script separately.

> * add a webforum to each scripts page
> * add an issue tracker

This can also be separate. A link from the description would be
sufficient.

> * add OpenId to vim.org
> * politely inforce a default licence for scripts
> * allow people to upload patches to scripts they have not initially
> created

Some way to take over maintenance would be best. With some way to make
clear at what point it was taken over.

--
hundred-and-one symptoms of being an internet addict:

168. You have your own domain name.

/// Bram Moolenaar -- Br...@Moolenaar.net -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
/// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
\\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///

[Caleb Cushing]

> My personal preference is not to get interrupted by "new thing
> available" messages. They mostly distract me from what I was actually
> doing. Typing some command to check for updates is usually more
> convenient. And as others noted: this already exists. :help getscript.

I think this differs for everyone. My suggestion add an rss/atom
feed... also I'm not sure how feasible this is but if we could use
feedburner automagically with each script and have it's email service.
this gives people the option of being notified in various ways is they
choose.

> Currently nobody is actively updating the PHP and MySQL code of
> www.vim.org. I've been fixing problems, just because nobody else does
> it. It would be great to have an active maintainer again.

> Note that this requires knowledge of:
> - PHP
> - MySQL
> - security issues
> - spammers
>
> Especially the "add comment" feature will be sensitive for spamming.
> I also suspect we need to make the creation of a login more safe, it's
> only a matter of time until a spammer writes a script to work around the
> current simple procedure and starts uploading garbage.

>> there is a vimonline development site[1] on sourceforge. The bugtracker

>> there states, that the last time an issue was closed was at 2007-07-30
> > and the oldest open issue is from 2001-09-13.
> > Isn't it, that vim.org needs and deserves more attention to reflect the
> > greatness of VIM? Since I'm a webdeveloper I'd like to volunter to build
> > a fresh new vim.org site with all the features mentioned below.
> > But this should not be a one time one man effort but a planed team

> > effort. So who is the current responsible behind vim.org and who would
> > like to join the team?

I'd personally consider it. I'm of the mindset the site may need a
complete rebuild. Could we consider using something like drupal for
the basis? and then extend as needed.

also are we stuck with MySQL? Personally I prefer PostgreSQL but this
isn't my project, but I thought I'd raise it as an idea for discussion
if we are rebuilding from scratch.

> > Things that could be done:
> > * save scripts in a VCS
>
>
> This doesn't need to be on www.vim.org. You can do it on any separate
> site and only upload the result to www.vim.org. That gives a much more
> convenient way to control access for each script separately.

I think that many script maintainers may want to use the VCS they
prefer, I for example like git, while others may prever hg, bzr, etc.
However, I think it would be beneficial for us to provide a consistent
location on the page for links to offsite resources.

>
> > * add a webforum to each scripts page
> > * add an issue tracker
>
>
> This can also be separate. A link from the description would be
> sufficient.

I'll once again refer to needing a consistent area for offsite resources.

>
> > * add OpenId to vim.org

OpenID has it's own security problems, personally after thinking about
it, I don't care for OpenID, just create an account with the username
and password you always use. only once in a great while do I have
problems doing that.

> > * politely inforce a default licence for scripts
> > * allow people to upload patches to scripts they have not initially
> > created
>
>
> Some way to take over maintenance would be best. With some way to make
> clear at what point it was taken over.

well the clear point would be when that person uploads a newer script.

--
Caleb Cushing

[Thomas Koch]

I created a page on the vim-tipps wiki to continue this discussion:
http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Vim.org_relaunch
My aim is, to first create a requirements document that lists all things
we want to have on vim.org/scripts. After completing the requirements,
we can continue with concrete design questions.

[Tom Link]

> >  And as others noted: this already exists.  :help getscript.
>

> My suggestion add an rss/atom feed

I personally would prefer a BBS type of forum. Mozilla[1] and other
communities use forums to announce updates for plugins, user support
etc.

getscript didn't really work for me the last time I tried. The time I
got it to work the way I expected it to it looked like a perfect
solution to me.

> Could we consider using something like drupal for the basis?

If somebody is willing to do a major update every month or so.


[1] e.g. http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewforum.php?f=48

[Richard Hartmann]

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 15:56, Bram Moolenaar <Br...@moolenaar.net> wrote:

> My personal preference is not to get interrupted by "new thing
> available" messages. They mostly distract me from what I was actually
> doing. Typing some command to check for updates is usually more
> convenient. And as others noted: this already exists. :help getscript.

I don't care for this either, but a lot of people love it. RSS etc as
per Caleb's
suggestion would not hurt to have.

> Currently nobody is actively updating the PHP and MySQL code of
> www.vim.org. I've been fixing problems, just because nobody else does
> it. It would be great to have an active maintainer again.

Rebuilding the site from the ground up based on some CMS would also
be an option. Less work on the code site, more time for actual content.

> Especially the "add comment" feature will be sensitive for spamming.
> I also suspect we need to make the creation of a login more safe, it's
> only a matter of time until a spammer writes a script to work around the
> current simple procedure and starts uploading garbage.

That part should be relatively easy to fix.

>> * add an issue tracker
>
> This can also be separate. A link from the description would be
> sufficient.

RT aka Request Tracker [1] is extremely powerful in this regard. If you
want to use that as the issue tracker, I volunteer to do all work on it.

>> * add OpenId to vim.org

OpenID is a spam wave waiting to happen.

>> * allow people to upload patches to scripts they have not initially
>> created
>
> Some way to take over maintenance would be best. With some way to make
> clear at what point it was taken over.

A Big Large Redirection from script a to script b would work with the
existing system and be do-able in half an hour.

Richard

[Caleb Cushing]

> Rebuilding the site from the ground up based on some CMS would also
> be an option. Less work on the code site, more time for actual content.
>

Right, and if you ask me the entire site, not just scripts, needs
work. I suggested drupal but if anyone has other suggestions I'm open.

> >> * add an issue tracker
> >
> > This can also be separate. A link from the description would be
> > sufficient.
>
>
> RT aka Request Tracker [1] is extremely powerful in this regard. If you
> want to use that as the issue tracker, I volunteer to do all work on it.

I'd not heard of it before now, and don't know any sites that use it?
I didn't see any demo's on the homepage, do you know of any? or maybe
a site that uses it? I'm only against one issue tracker that I've used
and that's Trac, seems to be difficult to set up (never seems to be
done right the first time) and I've heard of other interesting issues.

>
> >> * add OpenId to vim.org
>
>
> OpenID is a spam wave waiting to happen.
>

I agree with this... I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet since sites
can be their own OpenID provider.

>
> A Big Large Redirection from script a to script b would work with the
> existing system and be do-able in half an hour.

sounds like a decent short term solution but I think we could do
better on the long term.

my suggestion is (quoting myself on the wiki)

we need to implement a upload permissions system and perhaps
something like githubs fork. We could make it so that the script
maintainer must allow others to upload scripts, in the event that the
script creator can't be reached within a certain period of time an
admin could assign a new person as the maintainer.

--
Caleb Cushing

[Richard Hartmann]

On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 06:36, Caleb Cushing <xenote...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Right, and if you ask me the entire site, not just scripts, needs
> work. I suggested drupal but if anyone has other suggestions I'm open.

That is what I meant, yes. As to which CMS, I am not qualified to
venture a guess.

> I'd not heard of it before now, and don't know any sites that use it?
> I didn't see any demo's on the homepage, do you know of any? or maybe
> a site that uses it? I'm only against one issue tracker that I've used
> and that's Trac, seems to be difficult to set up (never seems to be
> done right the first time) and I've heard of other interesting issues.

It's what CPAN & freenode use. There are other large installations,
a list of other entities can be found at [1]. You can test it at [2].
Note that it's main focus is a generic 'ticket' which can be pretty
much anything you want it to be. Issue tracking is only one of these.
I have to admit that until you have groked the mental model of what
the devs did, it's next to impossible to set up & customize RT, but
once you are past that, it's incredibly powerful. Kinda like Vim ;)

> I agree with this... I'm surprised we haven't seen it yet since sites
> can be their own OpenID provider.

Aye.

>> A Big Large Redirection from script a to script b would work with the
>> existing system and be do-able in half an hour.
>
> sounds like a decent short term solution but I think we could do
> better on the long term.

Aye.

> we need to implement a upload permissions system and perhaps
> something like githubs fork. We could make it so that the script
> maintainer must allow others to upload scripts, in the event that the
> script creator can't be reached within a certain period of time an
> admin could assign a new person as the maintainer.

That is basically what CPAN is doing. Unfortunately, its interface
is not ideal and too large & cumbersome for Vim scripts. Maybe
we could steal from somewhere else?

Richard

[1] http://bestpractical.com/rt/praise.html
[2] http://rt3.fsck.com/index.html

[Caleb Cushing]

so... how is it we are going to determine what of, if any of this happens?

[Thomas Koch]

Am Friday 07 November 2008 10:01:40 schrieb Caleb Cushing:
> so... how is it we are going to determine what of, if any of this happens?

I wanted to wait this weekend to give anybody time to add comments to
the wiki page( http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Vim.org_relaunch ).

If the requirements / wish list / feature requests are fixed, we can
start with a design discussion, based on the requirements.

The design discussion includes questions like:
- who
- on what server
- what programming language
- what CMS / Framework / ...
- programming process issues

But please do not talk about design issues, before the requirements are
fixed. And before starting the design I'd like Bram to bless the
requirements.

[Caleb Cushing]

bug tracking: anyone else think that a threaded comment system with
attachments might be enough of a bug tracker for /scripts? thing I'm
thinking is that there are so many thousands of scripts that most
users don't want to have to look for which one on a centralized
tracker. so a 'mini' tracker (meaning one for each script) would be
better. Perhaps just a mini forum system for each script.

I think a bug tracker for vim is kind of up to Bram, and other core
devs, as it's there choice as to whether they would even use it.

[Tom Link]

> bug tracking: anyone else think that a threaded comment system with
> attachments might be enough of a bug tracker for /scripts?

As I said before, IMHO some BBS/forum system would solve most of the
current short-comings.

[Caleb Cushing]

> As I said before, IMHO some BBS/forum system would solve most of the
> current short-comings.

Yeah but I'm thinking something a bit more embedded and closer to what
you see on mozilla's addon site. Except more threaded.

--
Caleb Cushing

[Richard Hartmann]

On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 10:01, Caleb Cushing <xenote...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> so... how is it we are going to determine what of, if any of this happens?

IMO, an endorsement by Bram.

Richard

[Gorilla3D]

Just wondering if anyone is actively working on this. If not I'll be
more then happy to join the effort, in programming this. I use vim
everyday and although I cant help the scripts that make vim so amazing
I can atleast help the site.

If your interested in some of my work http://gorilla3d.com/portfolio ,
most of my work is Php & Mysql

On Nov 7, 5:24 pm, "Richard Hartmann" <richih.mailingl...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Richard Hartmann]

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 03:27, Gorilla3D <sut...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just wondering if anyone is actively working on this. If not I'll be
> more then happy to join the effort, in programming this. I use vim
> everyday and although I cant help the scripts that make vim so amazing
> I can atleast help the site.

Afaik, there is nothing. :/

Richard

[Bram Moolenaar]

Gorilla3D (sutabi?) wrote:

> Just wondering if anyone is actively working on this. If not I'll be
> more then happy to join the effort, in programming this. I use vim
> everyday and although I cant help the scripts that make vim so amazing
> I can atleast help the site.
>
> If your interested in some of my work http://gorilla3d.com/portfolio ,
> most of my work is Php & Mysql

Well, in my browser that page mostly generates warnings and tells me a
plugin is missing. Not very portable...

In the spirit of Vim, the website should render properly on just about
any browser, without any plugin requirements. And preferably without
using any javascript.

And won't let anyone working on the Vim website without knowning their
real name.

--
Q: What's orange and sounds like a parrot?
A: A carrot

[Joseph Montanez]

Ok, well good luck on your vim website.

Thanks for all the fish!
- Joseph

On Dec 9, 5:05 am, Bram Moolenaar <B...@moolenaar.net> wrote:
> Gorilla3D (sutabi?) wrote:
> > Just wondering if anyone is actively working on this. If not I'll be
> > more then happy to join the effort, in programming this.  I use vim
> > everyday and although I cant help the scripts that make vim so amazing
> > I can atleast help the site.
>
> > If your interested in some of my workhttp://gorilla3d.com/portfolio,
> > most of my work is Php & Mysql
>
> Well, in my browser that page mostly generates warnings and tells me a
> plugin is missing.  Not very portable...
>
> In the spirit of Vim, the website should render properly on just about
> any browser, without any plugin requirements.  And preferably without
> using any javascript.
>
> And won't let anyone working on the Vim website without knowning their
> real name.
>
> --
> Q: What's orange and sounds like a parrot?
> A: A carrot
>

>  /// Bram Moolenaar -- B...@Moolenaar.net --http://www.Moolenaar.net  \\\
> ///        sponsor Vim, vote for features --http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/\\\
> \\\        download, build and distribute --http://www.A-A-P.org       ///