Problems with Vim lists on Google Groups
Bram Moolenaar
Hello Vim users,
A few weeks ago the Vim maillists were moved to the Google Groups
system. For most people this worked well, but some experienced problems
receiving and posting messages. That means one is successfully
subscribed, but messages are not received and posting is not allowed.
It took a while to figure out what went wrong. It turned out that it
was caused by a denied mass-subscribe request. At first I had tried to
automatically subscribe the subscribers of the old maillists at Google
Groups. The requests that were denied have resulted in a special flag
for the e-mail addresses in these lists. That caused the problems.
I have sent this message to the people in the denied requests, but
I got quite a few bounces. Thus I'm repeating the message here for
others that appear to be in this situation.
If you have the problems described, you can do one of these:
- Subscribe with another e-mail address.
- Some people reported that it started working after creating a Google
account.
- Contact Groups support at this URL:
http://groups.google.com/support/bin/request.py
I'm very sorry we caused these problems and it took so long to figure
out what went wrong.
--
If Microsoft would build a car...
... the oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would
all be replaced by a single "General Protection Fault" warning light.
/// Bram Moolenaar -- Br...@Moolenaar.net -- http://www.Moolenaar.net \\\
/// sponsor Vim, vote for features -- http://www.Vim.org/sponsor/ \\\
\\\ download, build and distribute -- http://www.A-A-P.org ///
\\\ help me help AIDS victims -- http://ICCF-Holland.org ///
Tony Mechelynck
>
> Hello Vim users,
>
> A few weeks ago the Vim maillists were moved to the Google Groups
> system. For most people this worked well, but some experienced problems
> receiving and posting messages. That means one is successfully
> subscribed, but messages are not received and posting is not allowed.
>
> It took a while to figure out what went wrong. It turned out that it
> was caused by a denied mass-subscribe request. At first I had tried to
> automatically subscribe the subscribers of the old maillists at Google
> Groups. The requests that were denied have resulted in a special flag
> for the e-mail addresses in these lists. That caused the problems.
>
> I have sent this message to the people in the denied requests, but
> I got quite a few bounces. Thus I'm repeating the message here for
> others that appear to be in this situation.
>
> If you have the problems described, you can do one of these:
> - Subscribe with another e-mail address.
> - Some people reported that it started working after creating a Google
> account.
> - Contact Groups support at this URL:
> http://groups.google.com/support/bin/request.py
>
> I'm very sorry we caused these problems and it took so long to figure
> out what went wrong.
>
I "may" be victim of that mass subscribe -- I don't rightly know. Here's what
I experience:
- My gmail account "knows" that I am both antoine.m...@gmail.com and
antoine.m...@skynet.be
- My Google Groups are set to send email to the former but know about the
latter (it appears in the drop-down).
- My @skynet.be address used to be my address-of-record for Vim lists before
the switch to Google groups.
- I can post with @gmail.com in my from-line, but @skynet.be gets a bounce.
I don't really need help, since I can use @gmail.com to post, and Thunderbird
(which reads my Google mail by POP) correctly sets the from-address to
@gmail.com when I reply to a vim-list post. The only time I must pay attention
to which identity I send mail from is when creating a new thread.
Best regards,
Tony.
--
Living in LA is like not having a date on Saturday night.
-- Candice Bergen
Georg Dahn
There is still one little problem I have: I want to receive my own
emails, too. Since I have got answers, I at least know that posting to
the new lists work. How can I change that behavior? I have looked for an
option, but have not found anything.
Best wishes,
Georg
Tony Mechelynck
I do receive my own posts, and like you, my from-line is set to @gmail.com. I
wonder what you and I do differently? I read my Google mail by POP, Gmail
forwarding is disabled, and my Google Groups are set to Email to my @gmail
address. Is there anything suspicious in your gmail or Google Groups settings?
http://mail.google.com/mail?view=pr&fs=1
http://groups.google.com/groups/mysubs
Best regards,
Tony.
--
As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not
certain, and as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality.
-- Albert Einstein
Georg Dahn
> I do receive my own posts, and like you, my from-line is set to @gmail.com. I
> wonder what you and I do differently? I read my Google mail by POP, Gmail
> forwarding is disabled, and my Google Groups are set to Email to my @gmail
> address. Is there anything suspicious in your gmail or Google Groups settings?
>
> http://mail.google.com/mail?view=pr&fs=1
> http://groups.google.com/groups/mysubs
Thanks for your answer! Unfortunately, I cannot see anything suspicious
and anything I do differently. However, I am subscribed to another
Google group where I am using my Yahoo-email and there everything works
fine. At the beginning I used my Yahoo-email for the Vim groups, too,
but did not receive any email at all. I could try to unsubscribe and
subscribe again... Maybe it helps.
Best wishes,
Georg
Fuzzy Logic
Gmail web interface, you will not see a copy of your own message
reappear.
This is a feature of Gmail and is not changeable.
Fuzzy
Fuzzy Logic
message, not the message after it has passed through Google Groups.
Look closely, and you will see that none of your own messages posted
via SMTP or the web interface have the blurb at the bottom about "You
received this message from the "vim_use" maillist.", but everyone
else's do have it.
Fuzzy
Tony Mechelynck
Yes, they do have it, but as I use a mail signature (headed by a
dash-dash-space line) that blurb appears as part of my sig (and at its end).
When I reply to a Google group message, I usually intentionally clip that
advertisement, because spam fighting is one of my persuasions. This time,
exceptionally, I didn't.
Here's an excerpt from the mail headers of a recent post of mine, as I got it
back on the vim_use list. These headers show that the mail did pass through
the google mail servers. As you can see below, I send mail to the vim-lists
through my ISP's SMTP servers (my ADSL connection blocks SMTP access to any
other servers than those of Belgacom Skynet SA/NV) and it comes back to me
from Google's POP servers.
Standards mandate that the received-lines appear in "latest first" sequence.
Received: by 10.82.107.17 with SMTP id f17cs146598buc;
Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:38:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.114.24.1 with SMTP id 1mr1036301wax.1187365102879;
Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:38:22 -0700 (PDT)
Return-Path:
<grbounce-kKpDswUAAAD87BKvZoWWIqgvt2_Vg0cp=antoine.mechelynck=gmai...@googlegroups.com>
Received: from wa-out-0708.google.com (wa-out-0708.google.com [209.85.146.248])
by mx.google.com with ESMTP id k21si2340905waf.2007.08.17.08.38.21;
Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:38:22 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of
grbounce-kKpDswUAAAD87BKvZoWWIqgvt2_Vg0cp=antoine.mechelynck=gmai...@googlegroups.com
designates 209.85.146.248 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.146.248;
Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of
grbounce-kKpDswUAAAD87BKvZoWWIqgvt2_Vg0cp=antoine.mechelynck=gmai...@googlegroups.com
designates 209.85.146.248 as permitted sender)
smtp.mail=grbounce-kKpDswUAAAD87BKvZoWWIqgvt2_Vg0cp=antoine.mechelynck=gmai...@googlegroups.com
Received: by wa-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id n36so2533250wag
for <antoine.m...@gmail.com>; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:38:21 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.115.92.2 with SMTP id u2mr1534031wal.1187365095230;
Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:38:15 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.44.112.32 with SMTP id k32gr996hsc;
Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:38:08 -0700 (PDT)
X-Sender: antoine.m...@gmail.com
X-Apparently-To: vim...@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.36.18.3 with SMTP id 3mr3034794nzr.1187365087592; Fri, 17 Aug
2007 08:38:07 -0700 (PDT)
Return-Path: <antoine.m...@gmail.com>
Received: from mailrelay001.isp.belgacom.be (mailrelay001.isp.belgacom.be
[195.238.6.51]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id
20si3963156nzu.2007.08.17.08.38.07; Fri, 17 Aug 2007 08:38:07 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 195.238.6.51 is neither permitted nor
denied by domain of antoine.m...@gmail.com) client-ip=195.238.6.51;
Received: from 142.19-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be (HELO [87.64.19.142])
([87.64.19.142]) by mailrelay001.isp.belgacom.be with ESMTP; 17 Aug 2007
17:38:06 +0200
Best regards,
Tony.
--
There are revolutions that are sweeping the world and we in America
have been in a position of trying to stop them. With all the wealth of
America, with all of the military strength of America, those
revolutions are revolutions against a form of political and economic
organization in the countries of Asia and the Middle East that are
oppressive. They are revolutions against feudalism. [1952]
-- Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
Tony Mechelynck
I post by SMTP, sending to my ISP's SMTP servers a message addressed to (for
instance) vim...@googlegroups.com
I never access the Google webmail interface, except to check or change my
Google mail settings.
I cannot use Google's SMTP servers (nor yahoo.co.uk's, for that matter)
because even though I have an email account there, my ADSL connection blocks
all SMTP access except to relay.skynet.be or relay.belgacom.net
Best regards,
Tony.
--
"To be responsive at this time, though I will simply say, and therefore
this is a repeat of what I said previously, that which I am unable to
offer in response is based on information available to make no such
statement."
Fuzzy Logic
DOESN'T have the trailer, but the message I'm replying to does.
Tony Mechelynck
> Look at the message I'm replying to. You'll notice that your copy
> DOESN'T have the trailer, but the message I'm replying to does.
>
> Fuzzy
On the contrary, I see the trailer, unquoted, in the message I got (when I
quote your message it gets ONE quote mark), which I interpret as meaning that
my copy does include the trailer, though, maybe because you snipped it, the
message you're replying to doesn't.
And don't tell me you know better than me how the messages appear to me when
Thunderbird fetches them from Google.
Oh, you boast that your logic is fuzzy, don't you? Well, it is.
Regards,
Tony.
--
Preudhomme's Law of Window Cleaning:
It's on the other side.
Suresh Govindachar
Fuzzy's and Tony's argument has involved the presence or absence
of Google-Groups' trailer message. I am just trying to see if
Google Groups is smart enough to ensure, at least in some
situations, that there are no duplicate trailer messages.
As I send it, this message has one quoted trailer about being
from vim_use. And this message does not have any "signature-
indicator" line (meaning a "^-- " line); it does have a
"^ > -- " line.
--Suresh
Tony wrote:
> Fuzzy Logic wrote:
>> Look at the message I'm replying to. You'll notice that your copy
>> DOESN'T have the trailer, but the message I'm replying to does.
>>
>> Fuzzy
>
> On the contrary, I see the trailer, unquoted, in the message I got
(when I
> quote your message it gets ONE quote mark), which I interpret as
meaning that
> my copy does include the trailer, though, maybe because you snipped
it, the
> message you're replying to doesn't.
>
> And don't tell me you know better than me how the messages appear to
me when
> Thunderbird fetches them from Google.
>
> Oh, you boast that your logic is fuzzy, don't you? Well, it is.
>
Tony Mechelynck
As I send it back, with no snipping, it has one trailer above my reply.
Apparently Google _is_ smart enough.
Best regards,
Tony.
--
Living on Earth includes an annual free trip around the Sun.
Fuzzy Logic
Gmail discards messages with duplicate Message-IDs. Period. I was told
this, unequivocally by a Gmail engineer.
Since you are sending through your SMTP server, and looking at your
headers, it looks like the message never passes through Gmail until
AFTER it has passed through googlegroups.
Please think before you insult people. There is no call for being rude.
As for my name, fuzzy logic is based on set theory. It's making
decisions for complex problems based on reasonable approximations.
It's not as "fuzzy" as you think.
Fuzzy
Suresh Govindachar
Fuzzy wrote complaining that Tony was rude to him.
Actually Fuzzy, you were rude to Tony first, and
here's how:
Tony wrote that when he sees posts, they have the
Google trailer and he sent back his post intact with
the Google trailer he was seeing.
When you got the post, you saw only one trailer, not
two. If you had respected Tony's remark you would
have tried to figure out how the trailer disappeared;
instead, you rudely told Tony in caps that he was
not seeing what he wrote as seeing:
Fuzzy> Look at the message I'm replying to. You'll
Fuzzy> notice that your copy DOESN'T have the trailer,
Fuzzy> but the message I'm replying to does.
[The resolution is that Google Groups is smart enough
(in many cases) to ensure that there are no duplicate
trailers.]
--Suresh
Fuzzy Logic
was explained to me by a Gmail engineer. Tony said I was wrong. That
put my hackles up.
My point has nothing at all to do with how Google Groups handles
messages, but instead with how Gmail handles messages.
Fuzzy
Tony Mechelynck
> Suresh, I think you have it backwards. I explained how Gmail works, as
> was explained to me by a Gmail engineer. Tony said I was wrong. That
> put my hackles up.
>
> My point has nothing at all to do with how Google Groups handles
> messages, but instead with how Gmail handles messages.
>
> Fuzzy
Well, you said that I was not seeing what I _was_ seeing, and you said it in
caps, even before I told you that your nom-de-plume was well chosen. That put
MY hackles up. Hence my possibly less-friendly-than-usual reply.
Regardless of what Google engineers say or don't say, I see a trailer at the
bottom of every Vim-list post which I fetch from Google Groups via Gmail,
regardless, also, of whether or not I'm its author. That's a fact, and as such
it is more powerful than a lord mayor, not to mention a software engineer.
Worst regards,
Tony.
--
Rule of Defactualization:
Information deteriorates upward through bureaucracies.
Fuzzy Logic
On 8/17/07, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Fuzzy Logic wrote:
> > Suresh, I think you have it backwards. I explained how Gmail works, as
> > was explained to me by a Gmail engineer. Tony said I was wrong. That
> > put my hackles up.
> >
> > My point has nothing at all to do with how Google Groups handles
> > messages, but instead with how Gmail handles messages.
> >
> > Fuzzy
>
> Well, you said that I was not seeing what I _was_ seeing, and you said it in
> caps, even before I told you that your nom-de-plume was well chosen. That put
> MY hackles up. Hence my possibly less-friendly-than-usual reply.
I'm willing to admit when I make a mistake. I read your original post
as saying you posted using Thunderbird via SMTP through gmail.com
instead of through your own ISP.
I have to say, given how friendly you were in previous messages, I was
rather surprised as your very strong reaction. I was trying to explain
what Gmail users would see if they post through gmail.com (either web
or SMTP). You are an exception to that because your ISP's MX servers
accept messages which are not for its domain.
> Regardless of what Google engineers say or don't say, I see a trailer at the
> bottom of every Vim-list post which I fetch from Google Groups via Gmail,
> regardless, also, of whether or not I'm its author. That's a fact, and as such
> it is more powerful than a lord mayor, not to mention a software engineer.
As I've pointed out, that's because you're posting through something
other than Gmail's own SMTP server.
> Worst regards,
And this is why I told you that you were being rude. Go back to all of
my posts and tell me that you really believe I was trying to do
anything except explain a strange behavior of Gmail.
> Tony.
Fuzzy
Tony Mechelynck
> Inline.
>
> On 8/17/07, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.m...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Fuzzy Logic wrote:
>>> Suresh, I think you have it backwards. I explained how Gmail works, as
>>> was explained to me by a Gmail engineer. Tony said I was wrong. That
>>> put my hackles up.
>>>
>>> My point has nothing at all to do with how Google Groups handles
>>> messages, but instead with how Gmail handles messages.
>>>
>>> Fuzzy
>> Well, you said that I was not seeing what I _was_ seeing, and you said it in
>> caps, even before I told you that your nom-de-plume was well chosen. That put
>> MY hackles up. Hence my possibly less-friendly-than-usual reply.
>
> I'm willing to admit when I make a mistake. I read your original post
> as saying you posted using Thunderbird via SMTP through gmail.com
> instead of through your own ISP.
In fact, I said the exact opposite. I assume you meant one thing and wrote the
other.
>
> I have to say, given how friendly you were in previous messages, I was
> rather surprised as your very strong reaction. I was trying to explain
> what Gmail users would see if they post through gmail.com (either web
> or SMTP). You are an exception to that because your ISP's MX servers
> accept messages which are not for its domain.
>
>> Regardless of what Google engineers say or don't say, I see a trailer at the
>> bottom of every Vim-list post which I fetch from Google Groups via Gmail,
>> regardless, also, of whether or not I'm its author. That's a fact, and as such
>> it is more powerful than a lord mayor, not to mention a software engineer.
>
> As I've pointed out, that's because you're posting through something
> other than Gmail's own SMTP server.
>
>> Worst regards,
>
> And this is why I told you that you were being rude. Go back to all of
> my posts and tell me that you really believe I was trying to do
> anything except explain a strange behavior of Gmail.
You also said, before, that my posts went from myself to myself without ever
going through Gmail, and when I proved the opposite, you said that when my
posts came back to me, they had no banner at the bottom. I should have
understood that you were talking about things obviously out of your ken, and
that I ought to have disregarded both of these assertions as if they had never
existed.
>
>> Tony.
>
> Fuzzy
I shall henceforth assume that you were not trolling on purpose, though I've
had doubts an hour or two ago. Let me just say that I hold no hard feelings
against you, though it took me some reasoning to arrive at that decision.
Regards,
Tony.
--
Overheard in a bar:
Man: "Hey, Baby, I'd sure like to get in your pants!"
Woman: "No, thanks, I've already got one ass-hole in there now."