Fwd: VIM 7.1 compilation error

[Edward L. Fox]

Hi Bram,

Sorry for sending mail in HTML format, as the following content has some images to display.

Do you think we should deprecate the build-in Hangul supporting since the next version of VIM? So far as I know, the Hangul supporting conflicted with XIM module, which is more useful for Asian users. That's why the official Vim pre-built binary never enable this option. Some Korean users also noticed that the latest sources couldn't be built with this option enabled. I think all the users will use input method later, so I'd like to disable the "Hangul automata" from now on.

And if possible, we could also supply a Hangul input method by using the keymap mechanism, just like the kana (Japanese letters) keymap ported by me. I know nothing about Korean so I hope any Korean friend could help me with this issue.


Best regards,

Edward L. Fox

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kiwon Um <um.k...@gmail.com >
Date: Aug 3, 2007 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: VIM 7.1 compilation error
To: "Edward L. Fox" <edy...@gmail.com>

Hi Edward.
Thanks for reply.

Edward L. Fox wrote:

Hi Kiwon,

On 8/3/07, um.k...@gmail.com 
<um.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
  

Thanks Edward.

It works just in compiling manner, not actual.
Hangul inputting is incorrect, all is shown as broken characters.
    

Sorry but I know nothing about Hangul input. Could you give me a brief
introduction of the basic usage of Hangul input? That is, how do I set
up the Hangul input and what result is expected? Then I could do some
basic debugging about this problem.

Any way, as the Vim build-in Hangul input conflicts with XIM
interface, I think you'd better enable XIM interface rather than
Hangul interface, then you could use some more powerful input method
engine such as SCIM instead.
  

I append two figures to compare between with "--enable-hangulinput" option and without. (I just captured two screen shots.)
In good case, i.e. without "--enable-hangulinput"option, the result is as follow:

(In this case, I used "SCIM")

In bad case, i.e. with that option, the result is as follow:

VIM with SCIM is works quite well.
So.. just in my opinion, the next version of VIM might not need to have even that configure option.
It rather makes some user, like me, confused.

By the way, what does the "bottom-posting or interlaced-posting" mean?
Is it "Reply to Author"?
    

FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style
  

Like this style, what I'm writing down, huh? :-)

Sorry for bothering you.  I'm just first time here.
    

Just feel free to post any thing here. All people here are very
friendly. But you should obey the basic rules and the principles here.
For example, bottom-posting. :-)
  

I didn't know if that was really rule.
Anyhow I know now. :-)

Best regards,
Kiwon Um
[...]
    

Cheers,

Edward L. Fox
  

Thanks again.

Best regards,
Kiwon Um

[Edward L. Fox]

Hi Shawn Y. Kim,

(Cross-posting to vim-multibytes)

Thanks for your reply!

On 8/3/07, Shawn Y. Kim <orch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> I've also been through the same what you're going through.
>
> There could be a couple of solutions :
>
> 1. You could just use your xim. Try to configure vim with these
> options :
> --enable-xim --enable-gui=gtk2 --enable-multibyte --enable-multilang
> 2. If you really hate XIMs like SCIM and nabi,
> 2-1. you coluld choose to use gtk instead of gtk2
> --enable-hangulinput --enable-gui=gtk --enable-multibyte --enable-
> multilang --enable-xim=no --enable-fontset
> 2-2. If you want to use the built-in hangulinput module with GTK2,
> there's a way. I'm gonna describe how to do that later.
>
> Above, I can see Mr.Fox has posted a solution about this. Frankly, I
> didn't really tried that one out.

In fact as Um. Kiwon reported, my patch doesn't work at all. :-(

I don't actually know how many Vimmers in Korean are still using the
Hangul automata. In my impression, I think every Asian user is using
at least one Input Method Engine (IME). If so, the Hangul automata may
not be necessary at all. Or if possible, we could use keymap to
simulate the Hangul automata.

> I, however, got another one, though it has a "critical" limitation.
> Here it is:
>
> shawn.ygdrasil:~/work/vim7/src$ svn diff feature.h
> Index: feature.h
> ===================================================================
> --- feature.h (revision 392)
> +++ feature.h (working copy)
> @@ -674,7 +674,10 @@
> * turn to english mode
> */
> # if !defined(FEAT_XFONTSET) && defined(HAVE_X11)
> -# define FEAT_XFONTSET /* Hangul input
> requires xfontset */
> +# if !defined(HAVE_GTK2)
> +# define FEAT_XFONTSET /* Hangul input
> requires xfontset
> + only if not featured with
> gtk2 */
> +#endif
> # endif
> # if defined(FEAT_XIM) && !defined(LINT)
> Error: You should select only ONE of XIM and HANGUL INPUT
> shawn.ygdrasil:~/work/vim7/src$
>
> The one thing that may be bothering you when you use this patch is
> that you HAVE TO always use euc-kr as your encoding.
> If the locale settings of your machine is UTF-8, you've gotta add
> these lines to your .vimrc file :
>
> set encoding=euc-kr
> set fileencoding=utf-8

Um, it seems that with these settings, I will not be able to edit
files in other CJK languages...

> As to the details of encoding and fileencoding, refer to the vim help
> page.
>
> Except for that, it works great with GTK+2 with alti-aliased fonts,
> easy to set font, huh?
> But, personally, I prefer to use GTK+1.2 with rasterized, highly-
> optimized fonts like sun-gothic + fixed combination.

By the way, I guess that Gothic was a Japanese font... Three widely
used Korean fonts are named "BatangChe", "DotumChe", "Gulim" and
"GulimChe". Maybe I am wrong...

>
> Any way, good look.
>
> BRGD.
> Shawn from Seoul ;-)

Shalom,

Edward L. Fox

[Edward L. Fox]

Hi Shawn Kim,

On 8/3/07, Shawn Kim <orch...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> In those system, I don't seem to have many choices.
> I MUST compile vim enabling hangulinput feature and then use it to
> type in Hangul.
> It would never be enough to stress the necessity and the importance of
> that feature for Koreans.
> I would be devastated if that feature is to removed :'O

OK, I see. But I'm still wondered that could this feature be
implemented as a keymap? Like this:

1. :set keymap=kana

2. Type "ohayougozaimasu" will produce:

おはようございます。

If we could implement the Hangul input as a keymap, we can simply drop
the Hangul automata without any difficulty then.

>
> Regards,
> Shawn.
>
> P.S. Personally, using XIM with vim is kind of confusing.
> If you were typing Hangul in input mode, and then you escape from that
> mode by pressing upon ESC,
> XIM is still in Hangul input mode. So, any of your comands won't work
> until you switch to English input mode by
> pressing Shift+Space. It is very unconvinient and confusing.
> As it seems that I can seem to control XIM out of it, like sending
> signal or something, for me,
> it is just more appreciated using hangulinput feature. :-)

Just type ":help imactivatekey" and read this part of the manual,
maybe it's useful for you. :-)

>
> [...]

In peace,

Edward L. Fox

[Ben Peterson]

Hi,

Wouldn't hangul be a very big keymap? If the keymap was for individual jamo it would be manageable but I'm not sure how vim would then combine the jamo. If it is for all hangul characters it will be very large -- unless I am missing something.

On the other hand, it should also be relatively easy to generate the keymap automatically...

Benjamin

Hi Shawn Kim,

1. :set keymap=kana

おはようございます。

>
> [...]

In peace,

Edward L. Fox

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[Shawn Kim]

Ben Peterson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Wouldn't hangul be a very big keymap? If the keymap was for individual jamo it would be manageable but I'm not sure how vim would then combine the jamo. If it is for all hangul characters it will be very large -- unless I am missing something.
>
> On the other hand, it should also be relatively easy to generate the keymap automatically...
>
> Benjamin
>
>

Replying to all,

Hi, Benjamin,

Yes, It is a huge set of letters.
There are more than 10,000 letters that can possibly be made up, even
excluding obsoleted ones.

And there is a criticism I found about that method :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revised_Romanization_of_Korean#Criticism

Thanks for your comment

Shawn.

[Ben Peterson]

Hi,

True, one would have to make two separate attempts, one for old-style
and one for new-style Romanization.

There are other problems too, now that I think about it:

1) Some Korean syllables have different final consonants when written
but not when spoken. It is difficult to express this in romanization.
2) Hundreds of mappings would start the same way as each other (e.g.
Se, Set, Seok, Seo, Seot, Seok etc) which might make entering them via
the mapping system a bit odd (would it pick 'Se' if you hesitated part
of the way through typing 'Seoul'?)

3) As you know, neither romanization system is unambiguous because it
is sometimes impossible to tell where a syllable ends. Normally you
wouldn't want to type 'Se-o-ul', but if you did, how would the keymap
tell it apart from 'Seo-ul'? I think you'd need to actually type the
hyphens or something.

Hm, this actually sounds very very hard :(

Still I might generating a keymap (from the composed hangul character
area of the Unicode charts) over the weekend and see what happens.

Benjamin

-----Original Message-----
From: vim_mu...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:vim_mu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Shawn Kim
Sent: 03 August 2007 17:37
To: vim_mu...@googlegroups.com
Cc: vim...@googlegroups.com; Bram Moolenaar; vim-dev;
vim-mu...@vim.org; um.k...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Fwd: VIM 7.1 compilation error

[Bram Moolenaar]

Edward L. Fox wrote:

> Sorry for sending mail in HTML format, as the following content has some
> images to display.
>
> Do you think we should deprecate the build-in Hangul supporting since the
> next version of VIM? So far as I know, the Hangul supporting conflicted with
> XIM module, which is more useful for Asian users. That's why the official
> Vim pre-built binary never enable this option. Some Korean users also
> noticed that the latest sources couldn't be built with this option enabled.
> I think all the users will use input method later, so I'd like to disable
> the "Hangul automata" from now on.
>
> And if possible, we could also supply a Hangul input method by using the
> keymap mechanism, just like the kana (Japanese letters) keymap ported by me.
> I know nothing about Korean so I hope any Korean friend could help me with
> this issue.

I hesitate removing the Hangul support without knowing for sure that it
is not needed. Browsing through the messages I do see remarks that it
might still be useful to a few people.

Perhaps the Hangul support can be changed to also work for UTF-8?

The compilation error is easy to fix: Don't define FEAT_XFONTSET when
using GTK2.

--
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:-) Funny
|-) Funny Oriental
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