MacVim and App Store

[Janusz Bossy]

Hi Björn,

any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It's just
convenient to have all the apps update in one place.

--
Regards,
Janusz Bossy

[Frank Hellenkamp]

Hi Björn,

> any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It's just
> convenient to have all the apps update in one place.

(Besides difficulties with the App-Store, who's sandbox would restrict much of MacVims functionality e.g. direct access to files through ":e" etc...)

It would be nice to have one Developer ID for the "official" builds, so that MacVim would work nice with GateKeeper and the the Security setting "Mac App Store and identified developers".

At the the moment it is easy to workaround by selecting the App and select "Open" from the context menu and confirm the next dialog box. But that should be documented in the WIKI/Download pages.


Best

Frank

--
frank hellenkamp | interface designer
solmsstraße 7 | 10961 berlin

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+49.176.32 13 88 89 | mbl
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[Myroslav Rys]

Hi Frank,

I have Developer ID and I can maintain MacVim build for 10.8.


Sincerely,
Myroslav.


Myroslav Rys | myro...@me.com | Infrastructure and Operations Management Expert
mountain bike, snowboard, *nix

> --
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[björn]

>> any plans on making MacVim available on the App Store? It's just
>> convenient to have all the apps update in one place.
>
> (Besides difficulties with the App-Store, who's sandbox would restrict much of MacVims functionality e.g. direct access to files through ":e" etc...)
>
> It would be nice to have one Developer ID for the "official" builds, so that MacVim would work nice with GateKeeper and the the Security setting "Mac App Store and identified developers".

I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?

1. Sandbox restrictions. Like Frank says, it would cripple lots of
Vim functionality (as far as I understand - I wouldn't mind being
proven wrong).

2. Update bureaucracy. Having to wait for Apple to approve every
update seems like a major pain to me. I'd rather be able to
immediately upload a botched update, than having to wait and receive
lots of complaints while Apple is approving a fix.

3. Price. I'm not a registered Mac developer (I don't program for a
living, this is just a hobby) and I don't fancy having to pay Apple
for the pleasure of providing MacVim. I could ask for donations
(given how generous people have been in the past I don't doubt that
this would work) but items 1 and 2 makes me wonder whether it is worth
it.

Signing MacVim for use with GateKeeper seems like a *much* less
painful option but I'd still have to pay to register as a Mac
developer. I've written to Apple a few days ago to ask if they can't
provide a way for Open Source projects to sign apps without having to
pay for it, but have not yet received a reply (I don't have high
hopes).

So, I'm deliberating whether I should ask for donations for
registering as a Mac developer, but I am still undecided. What's
stopping me is that I would have to sit down and figure out how the
signing process works (I'm not overly fond of that type of drudgery
and it usually takes much more time than I'd like) and I'm not
particularly keen on asking for donations once a year just to pay the
Mac dev registration fee. Also, I'm not sure that I agree with
GateKeeper (and the App Store) on a philosophical level.

(Note that I do not particularly wish for somebody else to sign MacVim
for me or to upload MacVim to the App Store. If this is to happen
then I need to be able to control it myself.)

Björn

[Janusz Bossy]

Hi Björn,

thank you for the vast response. I did forget about the sandboxing -
it would render MacVim a lot less potent without being able to access
files using your keyboard. So let's forget about this. I'll leave you
thinking about the Gatekeeper signing process but I might ask about
something else - can we enable automatic checks for updates for
snapshots?

Janusz Bossy

[björn]

The automatic updates (i.e. Sparkle) caused me major maintenance
headaches in the past so I had the choice of getting rid of it or
never making any new updates. Maybe I'll look into it again one day,
but probably not.

Sorry that I can't be more obliging on these kinds of issues, but to
me they really detract from the fun of maintaing a project such as
MacVim, so I feel it best to avoid them lest I run the risk of loosing
interest.

I try to mitigate the lack of automatic updates by tweeting
(@b4winckler) and posting here whenever I release a new snapshot.

Björn

[Christopher Stone]

Hey Björn,

On Sep 06, 2012, at 09:31, björn <bjorn.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?

Amen.

> So, I'm deliberating whether I should ask for donations for registering as a Mac developer, but I am still undecided.

Even if you avoid the app-store there may be some advantages to being a registered developer. I think the fee is only $99.00 US, and I'm reasonably certain your user-base would be happy to cover that. I would have no problem kicking in a few bucks.

--
Best Regards,
Chris

[Carl Jacobsen]

On Sep 6, 2012, at 7:46 AM, björn <bjorn.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The automatic updates (i.e. Sparkle) caused me major maintenance
> headaches in the past so I had the choice of getting rid of it or
> never making any new updates. Maybe I'll look into it again one day,
> but probably not.
>
> Sorry that I can't be more obliging on these kinds of issues, but to
> me they really detract from the fun of maintaing a project such as
> MacVim, so I feel it best to avoid them lest I run the risk of loosing
> interest.

How about an in-between alternative that gets the "Check for updates..."
menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you?

I'm thinking something along the lines of:

- keep a version file at a known location, say in the github repo.
- file contains a) current version/build/snapshot#'s, b) release
date, and c) URL of current download/release-notes page.
- if/when user clicks "Check for updates", grab the file.
- if the current version number is less than or equal to the
one in the file, put up the expected dialog "congratulations,
you're running the latest version of MacVim".
- if the one listed online is newer, then put up a dialog "MacVim
version x.y snapshot NN, was released on yyyy-mm-dd (you have
version v.w snapshot LL), do you want to visit the download/
release-notes page?" with a yes/no prompt, and if they select
yes, just feed the URL to the OS and let their browser display
the page.

This gives anyone using MacVim (even those naive enough not to be
on this list or following you on twitter -- I suspect a lot of
people don't get any further than seeing the grayed-out "Check for
updates" option) an easy (understandable and easily discoverable)
way to check for updates, and all you'd need to do (uh, aside from
the initial bit of coding, yeah), is update the version file with
the latest version info once a new snapshot is up (oh, probably
announce it here and wait a day to ensure there are no screams of
anguish first). No downloading, permissions, libraries/dependencies,
etc. No prepping beyond what you currently do, aside from updating
the version file. And the user can choose to download or not.

Cheers,
Carl

[Tony Mechelynck]

On Sep 7, 5:02 am, Christopher Stone <listmeis...@thestoneforge.com>
wrote:
[...]

> Even if you avoid the app-store there may be some advantages to being a registered developer.  I think the fee is only $99.00 US, and I'm reasonably certain your user-base would be happy to cover that.  I would have no problem kicking in a few bucks.
>
> --
> Best Regards,
> Chris

"Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
"registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
the fraction's denominator. :-P

[Carl Jacobsen]

On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

> "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
> "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
> guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
> stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
> price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
> the fraction's denominator. :-P

Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
smug?

I've used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes
(Linux included) starting with the then-new 4.2BSD on a Vax in 1983,
eight years before the earliest version of Linux existed. I choose to
use Mac OS X because I prefer it to all other available choices,
*including Linux*, for a wide variety of reasons (and "looking cool in
coffee shops" is *not* on that list). Linux is a nice Unix-alike, but
has always been missing a *really* good, thorough, *consistent*, GUI.
Mac OS X is a good BSD-variant Unix, with an absolutely fantastic GUI.
To me, and to many others, it's worth jumping through a few hoops
(like buying [fantastic-but-spendy] Mac hardware) to be able to use
Mac OS X. We probably won't be able to sufficiently educate you about
what you're missing out on to change your mind, but, by the same
token, you aren't going to be able to convince us that Linux is
superior to Mac OS X. So please don't try.

And back on topic, count me in on being willing to contribute (each
year) towards a membership for Björn in the Mac Developer Program,
should he elect to start signing MacVim (I think it would involve
jumping through some hoops in Xcode initially, but could then be
automated to a simple call to /usr/bin/codesign in the Makefile).

My apologies for feeding the troll,
Carl

[Charles]

Carl Jacobsen wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2012, at 2:12 AM, Tony Mechelynck <antoine.m...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Only" USD 99.00, just for the privilege of calling oneself a
>> "registered developer" (whatever that may be)? Hey, no wonder Apple
>> guys have the reputation of being clad in greenbacks and gold. I'll
>> stay with Linux, thank you; the freedom is unbeatable, and the quality/
>> price ratio is a helluva lot better too, especially once you consider
>> the fraction's denominator. :-P
>
> Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
> smug?

[snip]

> My apologies for feeding the troll,
> Carl

It is only out of ignorance that anyone would call Tony
Mechelynck a troll or otherwise dream of insulting him, or take his
remaks as smugness. Over on the vim_use list he is the most helpful
(and nicest) participant, by a comically wide margin. And that list is
in general nice and helpful. Plus, he even reads the mac list and helps
out occasionally here too.

Charles

[Chip Warden]

Sorry Charles, but in this case Tony's definitely being a troll, and a smug one at that. I felt exactly the same way as Charles, but I take a hard line on *not* feeding trolls. Tony may indeed by a nice guy, but I wouldn't be able to tell that from his original post in this thread.

Having said that, let's please agree that MacVim on the Mac App Store would be a Terrible Idea ™, and if Bjorn doesn't want to pay $99 for a code signing key from Apple, it's not at all difficult to override Mountain Lion's Gatekeeper settings on a app-by-app basis for MacVim.

Chip

[Chip Warden]

On Sep 8, 2012, at 6:29 PM, Chip Warden <chip....@gmail.com> wrote:

> as Charles

Apologies, Charles. I felt the same way as *Carl*.

Chip

[gmn]

Carl Jacobsen, on 09/06/12 at 21:17:08 -0700, wrote:
> How about an in-between alternative that gets the "Check for updates..."
> menu item working again, without causing maintenance headaches for you?
>
> I'm thinking something along the lines of:
>
> - keep a version file at a known location, say in the github repo.
> - file contains a) current version/build/snapshot#'s, b) release
> date, and c) URL of current download/release-notes page.

There already is such a file. It's in html, and it's here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog]

Or, the user can just look here: [https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/downloads] and see if there's a new snapshot.

> - if/when user clicks "Check for updates", grab the file.

A bookmark makes it a one-click affair. So would this:

nmap <F8> :!open -a Safari https://github.com/b4winckler/macvim/wiki/ChangeLog<CR>

-gmn

[Charles]

Chip Warden wrote:
> Having said that, let's please agree that MacVim on the Mac App Store would
> be a Terrible Idea

Well, I certainly agree with that. I suspect, however, that I am the only one
who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
"programs" that live there. The app store is for cartoon programs that let
you share your grocery list with the universe, or tell your phone which
song is playing in iTunes on your Mac right now.

Charles

[Chip Warden]

On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mv...@forallx.net> wrote:

> I suspect, however, that I am the only one
> who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
> insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
> "programs" that live there.

And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea.

> The app store is for cartoon programs that let
> you share your grocery list with the universe, or tell your phone which
> song is playing in iTunes on your Mac right now.

And again, you'd be wrong. There are lots of good, useful programs on the Mac App Store. Of course, there are many *more* good, useful programs that would never be allowed on the Mac App Store, including MacVim.

Wow, I'm violating my own rule about not feeding trolls. Congratulations, Charles, you successfully troll-baited me.

Chip

[Christopher Stone]

On Sep 08, 2012, at 20:38, Chip Warden <chip....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mv...@forallx.net> wrote:
>> I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other "programs" that live there.
>
> And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is never a good idea.

______________________________________________________________________

Apparently he doesn't read either:

On Sep 06, 2012, at 22:02, Christopher Stone <listm...@thestoneforge.com> wrote:
> On Sep 06, 2012, at 09:31, björn <bjorn.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?
>
> Amen.

The app-store has some fine software available in addition to the dross, but it's a claustrophobic space ill-suited to developers who are unable or unwilling to put up with Apple's restrictive guidelines.

-ccs

[mv...@forallx.net]

Chip Warden wrote:
> On Sep 8, 2012, at 7:04 PM, Charles <mv...@forallx.net> wrote:
>
> > I suspect, however, that I am the only one
> > who thinks it would be terrible in part because it would be degrading and
> > insulting to MacVim to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other
> > "programs" that live there.

> And, of course, you'd be wrong. Making assumptions about what others think is
> never a good idea.

But I didn't assume. As the text says, I merely suspected. There is nothing
wrong with having suspicions about what others think. E.g., I may suspect that the election will be a close one.

> Wow, I'm violating my own rule about not feeding trolls. Congratulations,
> Charles, you successfully troll-baited me.

A troll is someone who wants others to be annoyed and to reply to their
postings. This describes neither me nor (I suspect) Tony Mechelynck. Some were annoyed and replied, neither of which was hoped for.


Charles

[mv...@forallx.net]

> Apparently he doesn't read either:
>

> >> I don't think I want to use the App Store. Why?
> >
> > Amen.

One who reads would have read that...

> I suspect, however, that I am the only one who thinks it would be
> terrible in part because it would be degrading and insulting to MacVim
> to be "approved", neutered, and listed among the other "programs" that
> live there.

...and would not have stopped at "terrible". Such a reader can see that
I suspect I'm the only one whose negativity towards putting MacVim on
the MAS stems in part because the MAS is degrading and insulting to
MacVim. The view that MAS is insulting and degrading to MacVim is an
odd view to have, since MacVim has no feelings to be hurt and no dignity
to be trampled. That's why I conjectured that I'm the only weirdo who
holds it to an appreciable degree.

So far, no one else has admitted to sharing this funny opinion with me.

Charles

[Tony Mechelynck]

On Sep 8, 9:30 pm, Carl Jacobsen <li...@carlrj.com> wrote:
[...]

> Are you on this list for any reason other than to make yourself feel
> smug?

Believe it or not, yes I am. I occasionally answer posts which were
made on vim_mac but actually belong on vim_use, and I also help ban
the spammers and allow the legitimete new subscribers.

>
> I've used a considerable number of Unix variants and Unix-alikes
> (Linux included) starting with the then-new 4.2BSD on a Vax in 1983,
> eight years before the earliest version of Linux existed. I choose to
> use Mac OS X because I prefer it to all other available choices,
> *including Linux*, for a wide variety of reasons (and "looking cool in
> coffee shops" is *not* on that list). Linux is a nice Unix-alike, but
> has always been missing a *really* good, thorough, *consistent*, GUI.
> Mac OS X is a good BSD-variant Unix, with an absolutely fantastic GUI.
> To me, and to many others, it's worth jumping through a few hoops
> (like buying [fantastic-but-spendy] Mac hardware) to be able to use
> Mac OS X. We probably won't be able to sufficiently educate you about
> what you're missing out on to change your mind, but, by the same
> token, you aren't going to be able to convince us that Linux is
> superior to Mac OS X. So please don't try.

I suppose we just don't have the same preferences. I don't blame you
for preferring the luxury of a Rolls-Royce (and paying for it), please
son't snub my VW Beetle.

>
> And back on topic, count me in on being willing to contribute (each
> year) towards a membership for Björn in the Mac Developer Program,
> should he elect to start signing MacVim (I think it would involve
> jumping through some hoops in Xcode initially, but could then be
> automated to a simple call to /usr/bin/codesign in the Makefile).
>
> My apologies for feeding the troll,
> Carl

Oh, and BTW I don't know what privileges "registered developers"
enjoy, maybe that's one of the reasons why it seemed unduly expensive
to me to pay USD 99 just for being one.

Usually I'm the one recommending not to feed the animals :-P Can't you
take humor? Not when it means someone doesn't assume costlier is
better, apparently. Oh, well, maybe I'm the one feeding the troll now.
I'll shut up.


Best regards,
Tony.
--
Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow they may make it illegal.