Introducing Paul Plantinga

[Paul Plantinga]

Hi all,

Largely a lurker but thought I'd share my two cents.

I have a background in carrier VoIP/Softswitching at telcos and ISPs, mostly in South Africa, and more recently consulting in OSS/BSS at a GSM operator.

Am currently a research associate and PhD candidate with Monash University, South Africa. My interest is in the (converging) telco industry structure and, more specifically, in balancing decentralised/ local and centralised/ global.

I'll be interested to see how well Village Telco scales, and the relationship with/ impact on the rest of the telco industry as it gains some momentum.

--
Paul Plantinga
Email: pplan...@gmail.com
Skype: pplantinga
Tel.: +27(0)726433669
Fax: +27(0)865039650

[rael lissoos]

Hi All

On Friday and yesterday the South African Regulator (ICASA), confiscated
our equipment. Our equipment consists of some Ubiquity Nanos and some
flashed Linksys WRT's. These were confiscated from a low cost area
where we were doing our tests on the village telco.

The reason seems to be that the 2.4 ISM unlicensed band is not in fact
unlicensed, I do not have this in writing but the regulator told me
that Telkom www.telkom.co.za (our landline operator) complained about
interference and hence the action.
Hopefully Steve can clarify some of the issues around 2.4 in South Africa.

It seems that the powers that be are maybe not so keen on the concept of
a village telco, or low cost telephony and data for the poor.

What is also quite disturbing is that we were not given any time to
discuss this or put our case forward.

This was also our pre-potato implementation. However the potatoes would
have also been confiscated as they are 2.4 equip.

It is an irony that the real challenges we will face are not technical,
economic or social, but from the very governments who are trying to
"help" develop nations through ICT.

I will keep you posted and hopefully your support can help us get the
situation rectified.

Best
Rael Lissoos
dabba
>
>

[Vickram Crishna]

It is quite sad to hear this, especially as I understand this project has support from other South African government or semi-government institutions (Meraka, right?). One hopes that this is not the end of this stage of mesh potato, but ICASA has had a very zigzagged track since the end of apartheid on several community initiatives, including community radio. 

It is of course hard for outsiders to understand the full range of concerns faced by any government, but certainly ICASA used to be very (perhaps 'totally' is a better word) anti-public WiFi for many years. I was under the impression that the rules had been changed by the time the Dharamsala meet took place, but perhaps this is not the case.   

Rael, please send me a scanned or soft copy of the notice of confiscation directly, thanks. 

--
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com

[McTim]

On 2/17/09, rael lissoos <ra...@lissoos.com> wrote:
>
> Hi All
>
> On Friday and yesterday the South African Regulator (ICASA), confiscated
> our equipment. Our equipment consists of some Ubiquity Nanos and some
> flashed Linksys WRT's. These were confiscated from a low cost area
> where we were doing our tests on the village telco.
>
> The reason seems to be that the 2.4 ISM unlicensed band is not in fact
> unlicensed, I do not have this in writing but the regulator told me
> that Telkom www.telkom.co.za (our landline operator) complained about
> interference and hence the action.
> Hopefully Steve can clarify some of the issues around 2.4 in South Africa.
>
> It seems that the powers that be are maybe not so keen on the concept of
> a village telco, or low cost telephony and data for the poor.

Not if their potential revenues are at stake! Does Telkom REALLY run
2.4Gig radios?
Any sniffers operating in the area to test that?

--
Cheers,

McTim
http://stateoftheinternetin.ug

[Paul Plantinga]

As far as I know wireless service providers are still only allowed to
transmit within a single premises/ building (i.e. not crossing a road
boundary) unless they have an network service license (ECNS). This
license requirement applies even if you are using unlicensed spectrum.

There was a warning issued to WISPs some time ago
(http://www.internet.org.za/ICASA_2.4_GHz_warning_notice.pdf) but this
has apparently fallen away.

Anyway, with the recent high-court ruling you should be able to get an
ECNS license along with everyone else, but this is likely to be way
too costly for a low cost telco.

Paul


Did Dabba (/Village Telco) manage to get an ECNS license in the latest
allocation?

[rael lissoos]

Dear Vikram and Sabastian

Thanks for your concern.

Firstly on Sebastians comments. We could try resolve this under the
radar, but I think the time has come for us to get some clarity on these
issues. I understand that if we make a fuss it may tangle us in a
bureaucratic stalled process and we may not achieve anything. But at
least in South Africa if we are going to pursue a village telco model
for lower cost data and voip we need to know if it is "legal". We have
also been promoting the idea to lower income entrepreneurs as a business
opportunity and we may be creating a false expectation.

Sebastian you probably have more experience in the areas of "telco
diplomacy". I will keep you posted and see what transpires tomorrow. I
think now they are going to try look at equip and see if it is EIRP
compliant etc..

On Vikrams point..

We also thought the rules had changed. ECNS licenses have been issued.
On the notice of confiscation, this is another issue, we did not receive
anything in writing the equipment was just removed. (We did however
receive a phone call a few minutes before it was removed saying it was
being removed and we should be there immediately, this was impossible as
it was a Friday afternoon and the area this took place is 50kms from
office, we were also unable to get there.)

Thanks
Rael

> that Telkom www.telkom.co.za <http://www.telkom.co.za> (our

[rael lissoos]

It seems Telkom does and they have the so called "channel 6" spectrum.
The default of most off the shelf equip.

[sebastian buettrich]

Dear Rael, dear all,

On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 18:05 +0200, rael lissoos wrote:
> Dear Vikram and Sabastian
>
> Thanks for your concern.
>
> Firstly on Sebastians comments. We could try resolve this under the
> radar, but I think the time has come for us to get some clarity on these
> issues.

... just to briefly explain,
i had written Rael off-list first,
to find out whether things need to be kept under the radar.

here s what i d written -
more later.

all the best to all,

s.

<quote>
dear Rael,

On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 16:57 +0200, rael lissoos wrote:
> Hi All
>
> On Friday and yesterday the South African Regulator (ICASA),
confiscated

> our equipment. ...

this is both ironic and disturbing.

while it is true that 2.4 ISM is not strictly speaking unlicensed or
license exempt in SA,
- i trust others will explain this on the list, much better than i can -
this comes unexpected.

really sad to hear that.
not much we can do to help in that situation - other than creating
publicity maybe, if that s what you d like to see.

we are currently at the ICTP Trieste for the ICTP - ITU wireless
workshop, with 30+ students, 60+ participants from 20+ countries -
and will be discussing regulations and licensing,
with ITU and politicians too.

your list post indicates that you are not keeping this secret,
and we can expect some blogging about it soon?

but if i m wrong here, and we should not discuss this openly, pls let me
know!

all the best, in this situation,

sebastian

</quote>

[rael lissoos]

Hi Paul

Maybe it is illegal we will find out.. We do however have an ECNS

We will see what happens

Thanks
Rael

[elektra]

Hi!

So individual profit interests and bureaucrazy (Not a typo!) seem to be
yet again in the way of human development and progress. I hope that this
can be communicated to the regulators in a convincing way (Kobus?). I
suppose my comments don't help here, sorry. This reminds me of a famous
quote from Ambrose Bierce that automatically comes to my mind at such
occasions:

IDIOT, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in
human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. The Idiot's
activity is not confined to any special field of thought or action, but
"pervades and regulates the whole." He has the last word in everything;
his decision is unappealable. He sets the fashions and opinion of taste,
dictates the limitations of speech and circumscribes conduct with a
dead-line.

Ambrose Bierce, The devil's dictionary

I know you will keep up the good spirit!

All the best!

elektra

[Antoine van Gelder]

Dear Rael,

It was with a sense of shock and disbelief that I read about the
seizure of your equipment.

I have difficulty believing that a body entrusted with the function of
helping to make sure that all within our society are able communicate
with each other took actions to disrupt communications within a
particularly vulnerable sector of the South African community over the
last few days.

These actions, coupled with a lamentable failure to follow even basic
policy regarding equipment seizure, serve only to erode the very thin
veneer of credibility and respectability ICASA has gained in their
epic struggle to win independence from state control.

I am sure that once cooler heads within ICASA consider the
implications of their actions there will be a willingness to engage in
dialogue regarding how such mistakes may be avoided in future and
perhaps even developing a general protocol for administering
allegations of radio frequency interference.

> Firstly on Sebastians comments. We could try resolve this under the
> radar, but I think the time has come for us to get some clarity on
> these
> issues. I understand that if we make a fuss it may tangle us in a
> bureaucratic
> stalled process and we may not achieve anything. But at least in
> South Africa
> if we are going to pursue a village telco model for lower cost data
> and voip we
> need to know if it is "legal".

I think you are being very brave by taking a stand on this Rael.

I take my hat off to you!

How will this affect folk within the trial community ?

Is there anything the village-telco community can do to help folk out
on the ground ?

- antoine

--
http://7degrees.co.za
"Libré software for human education."

[Pascal Laurent]

Dear Rael,

Wow!!! it's unbelievable. It's a sad day.

What does that mean for the future of the project?

--Tipizo

[Adel El Zaim]

Rael,

Sorry to learn that.
I hope you can sort it out quickly and find a good solution.
Indeed the problem is not technical. It is a regulatory problem. What
matters is to know now if the regulation is clear and transparent
enough to permit 2.4.
On the other side, you said: "Telkom comoplained about the
interference". Maybe the real reason is here. Who complained, and who
applied what in terms of regulations. Is this rather a matter of a big
fish eating the small one? Corruption? etc.

Adel

On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 4:57 PM, rael lissoos <ra...@lissoos.com> wrote:
>

[Steve Song]

Hi all,

Here is an article on the affair in ITWeb

http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/telecoms/2009/0902181040.asp

and my own (possibly mildly hyperbolic, but dammit I really am angry)
take on things

http://manypossibilities.net/2009/02/icasa-stealing-from-aids-orphans/

Regards... Steve

P.S. Have no fear Tipizo, this won't stop Dabba or the Village Telco
for that matter.

--
Steve Song
Telecommunications Fellow, Shuttleworth Foundation

email: steve...@shuttleworthfoundation.org
work: +27 21 970 1220
mobile: +27 83 482 2088
skype: steve_l_song
blog: http://manypossibilities.net
twitter: stevesong

[rael lissoos]

Hi All

Steve, this is not hyperbolic. And thanks for the diplomatic efforts.

On the practical side Icasa sent its sniffer vans out to Orange Farm
today. I suppose they sniffed more 2.4 wifi links. I think trying to
cover themselves. We still have not heard anything formally from them.

I am thinking maybe we should just replace the links and not wait for
them. (would be great if we could install a 1000 potatoes) The support
on the VC groups has been great and really motivating.

Thanks

[David Carman]

In 1986, our FM transmitter at UCT Radio was dismantled and we were
told that it would be confiscated if we reinstalled it.

The reason given was that the Post Office (now known as Telkom)
complained that we were "bleeding" onto other frequencies.

Twenty-three years later, no difference in either action or reason -
some things never change.

[Charles Wyble]

David Carman wrote:
> In 1986, our FM transmitter at UCT Radio was dismantled and we were
> told that it would be confiscated if we reinstalled it.
>
> The reason given was that the Post Office (now known as Telkom)
> complained that we were "bleeding" onto other frequencies.

Were you?

>
> Twenty-three years later, no difference in either action or reason -
> some things never change.
>

Well.... I think that in this situation some more data is needed. If any
laws/regulations were in fact broken, then that is the nature of the
beast. Now those laws/regulations should be changed for sure (to say
match what we have here in the United States for ISM band). Certainly
it's abominable that the big guy stepped on the little guy, but the law
is the law for better or for worse.

--
Charles N Wyble cha...@thewybles.com
(818)280-7059 http://charlesnw.blogspot.com
CTO SocalWiFI.net

[David Carman]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Charles Wyble <cha...@thewybles.com> wrote:
> David Carman wrote:
>> The reason given was that the Post Office (now known as Telkom)
>> complained that we were "bleeding" onto other frequencies.
>
> Were you?

I certainly had no problem with receiving all FM stations on upper
campus, the transmitter was low power and the elec eng students
probably knew more about what they were doing than the Post Office
technicians.

As I say, some things never change.

[Vickram Crishna]

"Certainly it's abominable that the big guy stepped on the little guy, but the law is the law for better or for worse."

An admirable sentiment, but perhaps more equitable if coupled with the notion that the law be applied uniformly for all. I notice that the ICASA rule in this case states very clearly and unequivocally: 

"The band 2400-2500 is also allocated to ISM (Industrial, Scientific and Medical) equipment and has primary status over the other applications in the band [my emphasis]" The complete relevant extract (NF 28 & 29) is attached as a tiff, because that is the way it has been captured in the pdf from http://www.icasa.org.za/ConsumerAffairs/ElectronicCommunicationNetworkService/RADIOFREQUENCYPROJECTSDraftReviewoftheN/tabid/115/ctl/ItemDetails/mid/567/ItemID/272/ComingFrom/Search/Default.aspx. I don't know why they have not enabled the full text to be captured. Unfortunately, Ursula G59, who created the pdf, does not seem to have an public email ID, through which we could invite her clarification.

Naturally, I do not have full knowledge of the law wrt confiscation of property as it is applied in South Africa, never having been there, but it is surely not normal (as against 'business as usual') to allow arbitrary search and seizure without warrant or notice. In case wireless interference is alleged by any aggrieved party, should there not also be a period of investigation and (in case it is correct) field study to determine whether and how scope to share the public band is possible, and finally (even if immediate relief is granted to the complainant) an arbitration to allocate channels if possible? 

Has any enforcement agency determined that both parties are correctly using their own equipment (note that Telkom had earlier declared it was using channel 6, following which Dabba adjusted its settings to channel 11, and I think Rael or Steve also mentioned 1)? Since both Dabba and Telkom provide public services, neither can claim proprietary rights over the entire band (and this is affirmed by ICASA): certainly Dabba has not.

I totally sympathise with Charles' PoV, let me say, but we are not discussing some high-end congested city with thousands of WISPs and private networks leaking into each other, this is a poor township in a gigantic wireless starved and largely rural country (check out the attached Google Earth pic: in India, we would call this just one step above a small town slum, with no slur at all intended, merely a reference to the economic status). The possibility of such extensive and intrusive leakages as to cause a nuisance through destructive interference is probably a little more remote than the location (I can't see any paved roads, but perhaps in ICASA's South Africa, wireless telecommunications is more advanced than road-building). 

Incidentally, we set up a micropowered (50mW) radio station in a village in the very center of India, in 2002. The government shut it down by confiscating the equipment, again without warrant or notice, in 2003, in order to make way for a 'community radio policy' (which did not exist at the time). When we protested, we were informed that it was matter of 'national security'. 

Just over six years later, to the day, 42 stations have been given permission to broadcast under this policy; only 3* of them are actually community-oriented, the rest being campus stations of the kind David mentions. There are now nearly 200 licensed private FM stations, most owned by India's, and the world's, biggest and richest media moguls. 

*all of which have already been operating as non-wireless 'radio' stations in their communities for about 6, 8 and 15 years, respectively

--
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com

[rael lissoos]

FROM
Dominic
Ellipsis Regulatory Solutions CC
ISPA Regulatory Advisor

1. No issue with crossing public boundaries.
2. But there is a power output restriction in 2.4GHz ISM of 100mW which
limits the range you can practically achieve. Note that 2.4GHz is not
unregulated: it is licence exempt in that no frequency licence is required
but see http://www.ellipsis.co.za/?p=201 for a copy of the ICASA Frequency
Licence Exemption Regulations 2008
3. Make sure your equipment is type approved and has the stickers to prove
it
4. Telkom has a deemed licence in 2.4GHz - they are apparently shifting out
of this band but... - generally they are to be found in channels 1-6 & it is
excellent advice to contact your local guys and check with them. This is one
of the few areas where ICASA is effective - following up on complaints from
Telkom about interference in 2.4GHz.

My view would be that the above position has been, for the most part, in
place since 1 Feb 2005.


Dominic
Ellipsis Regulatory Solutions CC
ISPA Regulatory Advisor

> Charles N Wyble cha...@thewybles.com <mailto:cha...@thewybles.com>

> (818)280-7059 http://charlesnw.blogspot.com
> CTO SocalWiFI.net
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Vickram
> http://communicall.wordpress.com
>
> >
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

[Cha...@thewybles.com]

Thank you for the additional data and information.

I simply wanted to present an alternate viewpoint and have folks go through an intelligent and reasoned evaluation of the facts. This generally leads to better arguing and positioning when going up against brain dead/corrupt organisations such as the governments of most countries. Certainly all govt have some level of corruption in them. Some far more then others, which is one of the numerous reasons that open access public networks are so vital.



If the law was abused and/or not broken, and it was in fact intimidation then by all means go livid!

Ill review what you have posted in more detail later.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

---

From: Vickram Crishna
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 12:09:05 +0530
To: <village-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Challenges SOUTH AFRICA VILLAGE TELCO regulator takes down equipment

[Gregory Mweemba]

Wow, I have just read this email (it has been too busy on our side lately with lots of planning/writting). It is a great matter of concern if regulators will take such action without warning against such a great community initiative. Unfortunately, the greater part of the "business world" is ruled by the big names and what they say obviously carries more weight whether fact or just mere claim.

Strength to the team!

Gregory Mweemba,
LinkNet Zambia.

2009/2/17 rael lissoos <ra...@lissoos.com>

--
_______________________________________________
LinkNet Multi-Purpose Co-operative Society
P.O Box 630 722,
Macha, Zambia.

Website: http://www.link.net.zm