more news on Dabba and Orange Farm

[Steve Song]

http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/telecoms/2009/0902201038.asp

-Steve

[Vickram Crishna]

Steve: one clarification please. 

The article states that Dabba is unlicensed, whereas Rael (or was it you?) pointed out that it actually has the requisite network operator's license (if I recall correctly, the acronym is ECNS). I see two amusing reader comments already on the ezine page, the second questioning the assertion that Telkom even has a 2.4GHz 'license' that needs defending.   

Since Mr Vecchiato has not specifically mentioned, in either of his articles, the kind of operator's license Dabba possesses, I think a detailed comment to that effect is needed, which I will be glad to make on our behalf - perhaps give the ezine a bit of a thrill, getting a comment from India! ;-)

btw, does SA have a strong tort law? Possibly a nasty little judicial notice may make some people more careful in future about whose interests they defend. 

PS I now see the clarification about the channel usage was actually part of the first article - I was a bit confused why I did not find it while replying to Charles' post. Anyhow, from another listmember, we now are aware that Telkom has a habit of using channel 1 also, probably without declaring it, but at least that gives Dabba some scope to be a little more 'Caesar's wife'-like in future.  

PPS: Does Telkom actually provide 2.4 GHz services in that area? I suppose it isn't impossible, but the Google snapshot doesn't really make the place look like it has dozens of hi-tech wireless users.  

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 7:19 PM, Steve Song <steve...@shuttleworthfoundation.org> wrote:

http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/telecoms/2009/0902201038.asp


-Steve

--
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com

[Steve Song]

Hi Vickram,

Dabba definitely have a full telecom operator's license. That is an
I-ECNS license. The whole issue would be a lot greyer if they did not.
Please feel free to post the correction :-)

From what I understand, Telkom use the WiFi spectrum to deliver CDMA
telephony service in the area. Although I stand to be corrected on that.

The whole of ICASA's action against Dabba rests on their claim of the
equipment being non-type approved. The Ubiquiti supplier in South
Africa claims that all of their equipment is type-approved. It may be
that Dabba is legally obliged to post a type approval sticker on the
outside of their equipment. In the case of say taking Linksys WRTs out
of their cases and placing them in Poynting antenna enclosures, they may
not have had stickers put on the outside of the poynting enclosure.

So, it is conceivable that ICASA were within the letter of the law in
taking down the equipment but certainly not within the spirit. This
sort of heavy handed, rolling in late on a Friday afternoon with no
notice to confiscate everything is really beyond the pale. A simple
letter asking Dabba to ensure that the equipment had type approval
stickers for all of their equipment would have sufficed.

Cheers... Steve

> <mailto:steve...@shuttleworthfoundation.org>> wrote:
>
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> http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/telecoms/2009/0902201038.asp
>
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> -Steve
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> --
> Vickram
> http://communicall.wordpress.com
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--
Steve Song
Telecommunications Fellow, Shuttleworth Foundation

email: steve...@shuttleworthfoundation.org
work: +27 21 970 1220
mobile: +27 83 482 2088
skype: steve_l_song
blog: http://manypossibilities.net
twitter: stevesong

[Vickram Crishna]

Well, I have posted a comment. The site says I will shortly get an acknowledgment, but I haven't yet, for about ten minutes. They also say they prefer short messages (as per their policy, must be the need to save cyber paper), so they may edit my 3-4 para thingy. Fingers crossed. 

--
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com

[Vickram Crishna]

They have not published the comment, but I have emailed it in as a separate post, just in case.

--
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com

[Alberto Escudero-Pascual (lists)]

Hi,

I will really like to see a proof of interference between CDMA2000 or
W-CDMA and ISM operations in 2.4 Ghz. As far as I know CDMA has been
deployed in 800, 900 and 2100 MHz. I do not see how an infrastructure in
2.4 GHz can interfere.

I believe that Telkom is using Huawei gear and I never heard of single
CDMA network built by them in the whole Africa operating at 2.4 Ghz. In
fact, CDMA networks operate in much lower frequencies to ensure larger
cells.

We should look for a spectrum analyzer.

/aep
--
Stopping junk mailers is good for the environment

>
> http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/telecoms/2009/0902201038.asp
>
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> -Steve
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> >
>

[Alberto Escudero-Pascual (lists)]

Hi,

The whole approval thing is also very twisted. You can have a radio
approved in terms of power emissions, max. power, an antenna approved but
plugging a radio to that antenna will deliver a system that can transmit
power well over EIRP acceptable limits for a give link.

So in fact, it is the "spirit" of the law what really matters.

/aep
--
Stopping junk mailers is good for the environment

>

[McTim]

On 2/21/09, Alberto Escudero-Pascual (lists) <aep....@it46.se> wrote:
>
<snip>

>
> So in fact, it is the "spirit" of the law what really matters.

Indeed, as we see from the latest BAA, where a landing station license will
cost you 15 million KE shillings plus another 5M annually.
http://www.cck.go.ke/Submarine_Licence.pdf

Developing countries want better and cheaper connectivity, but not at
the cost of lost revenue (which is the threat that Dabba represents
via Telkom revenues (apparently).

--
Cheers,

McTim
http://stateoftheinternetin.ug

[Kobus Roux]

For those that are interested, attached are the two relevant documents - the regulation on labeling of type-approved equipment, and regulation on license-exempt RF equipment.  The latter refers to EIRP for equipment in the 2.4 GHz band, which includes the antenna as part of the equipment to be type approved.

We have made submissions to ICASA to change the specification from EIRP to ERP (without antenna), as is the case in some of the other bands, but have not been successful to date.

I would be surprised if Telkom still had active links in 2.4 GHz. It might be that they claimed interference in the neighbouring bands (2.3 GHz or 2.5 GHz), which could be caused in the extreme case of equipment in 2.4 GHz with high gain antennas pointing to nearby receivers of point-to-point links in the adjacent bands.

Kobus

[Vickram Crishna]

On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 10:57 PM, Kobus Roux <kobus...@gmail.com> wrote:

For those that are interested, attached are the two relevant documents - the regulation on labeling of type-approved equipment, and regulation on license-exempt RF equipment.  The latter refers to EIRP for equipment in the 2.4 GHz band, which includes the antenna as part of the equipment to be type approved.

Extraordinary. The 'label' notification clearly and specifically refers ONLY to sale of equipment, not to its installation. In this case, the offence of 'missing label' does not apply.

 

 

We have made submissions to ICASA to change the specification from EIRP to ERP (without antenna), as is the case in some of the other bands, but have not been successful to date.

I would be surprised if Telkom still had active links in 2.4 GHz. It might be that they claimed interference in the neighbouring bands (2.3 GHz or 2.5 GHz), which could be caused in the extreme case of equipment in 2.4 GHz with high gain antennas pointing to nearby receivers of point-to-point links in the adjacent bands.

I suppose that is theoretically possible, but I think that any substantively destructive interference will mainly happen with harmonics, which are unlikely to be immediately adjacent. Radiation at 2.4 GHz of 100 mW EIRP does not seem powerful enough to cause problems to anyone transmitting less than a few meters away. 

In fact, the Mitre study (USA, see Prometheus Radio) has shown that it is not possible for low power transmitters, in the case of FM band, to have any substantive effect on reception signals of more powerful transmitters. The study is so conclusive that Mitre Corporation advised the FCC to cancel the second part of the study, which involved expensive measurements. 

Cell stations in the GSM bands normally have a clear air range of about 8 km, and I assume that for competitive reasons, CDMA will be similar. I don't know what the precise EIRP is, but I am sure it is a lot more than 100mW, which is designated in order to assure reception within 100 meters.  

Frankly, I think we are being unnecessarily defensive in accepting the charges. Obviously, going to court is expensive, but a public media campaign ought to force ICASA to reveal their 'evidence', or force them to ask Telkom to substantiate their claims of interference, by publishing measurements, including current data to show the interference has stopped with the shutdown of Dabba equipment.

Kobus

--
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com

[Vickram Crishna]

The number of comments is now up to 5, including mine, which has now been published, and I got a nicely worded acknowledgment from the editorial staff. 

I think the range of responses, especially about the interpretation of the licensing provision (and by extension, ICASA's responsibility, complaint or not), is interesting.

The earlier article has even more comments [http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/feedback/feedcopy.asp?storyid=193880], some of which have had a good bit of give-and-take, including another involving me on the licensing, and a couple from Rael, I think.  

I hope that some kind of underswell of support is building up in SA towards a rapid resolution of the status, which will determine the viability of projects like this going forward to widespread deployment. 

--
Vickram
http://communicall.wordpress.com

[Rael Lissoos]

Hi Vikram

It is Day 10, we still haven't heard anything. You are right the "underwell of
support" is starting to build. I think it is time for clarity and resolution.
Although it seems from the list and posts most of us are clear and resolved.

Dabba will rebuild the network Asap and probably have an opportunity to improve
and extend it.

Icasa should be encouraged to allow the opportunity for acceptable access and
provision, ironically Icasa has been thematically liberalising (Steve would
have more clarity on this I may err), of course, it begs the question as to why
their recent strange behaviour?

Thanks Rael

Rael Lissoos
+27824140814

[David Rowe]

Hello Rael and list,

I have just returned from a week in East Timor and was shocked to hear
about this incident. I have added a post on my blog to the chorus:

http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=90

> Dabba will rebuild the network Asap and probably have an opportunity to improve
> and extend it.

You are an inspiration to us all Rael - keep up your wonderful work!

My own guess is that ICASA (like all organisations) get its wrong now
and again. Hopefully this will be a test case that we can use to
prevent this sort of behaviour in the future.

Cheers,

David

--
Free Telephony Project
open embedded IP-PBX hardware and software
http://www.rowetel.com/ucasterisk

[David Rowe]

The video has just been posted on a Mesh Potato Talk I gave last month
at Linux Conf AU 2009:

http://mirror.linux.org.au/pub/linux.conf.au/2009/Friday/46.ogg

Here are the slides:

http://www.rowetel.com/downloads/lca_2009_mesh_potato.pdf

The slides contains links that explain how you can set up a BATMAN mesh
network on your x86 Linux machine in just a few minutes - during the
presentation the audience built a 12 node mesh while I was speaking!

Thanks to Elektra and Kim Hawtin in helping me set up the BATMAN demo.

[Pascal Laurent]

David,

46.ogg is mute. I can't hear a word when playing the file.

Thanks,
--Tipizo

[David Rowe]

> 46.ogg is mute. I can't hear a word when playing the file.

Sorry about that - there were microphone problems. When I checked it on
my machine decent audio starts at about 4 minutes in.

- David

[Pascal Laurent]

David,

This is a great presentation.

Thanks,
--Tipizo

[Eric Jarvies]

audio works fine for me after the 4 minute mark or thereabouts.

eric

[Pascal Laurent]

It does for me too. Thanks

[Muhammed Ismail]

Hi David,

Excellent presentation and video. Thankyou on behalf of the community. It is very helpful.

I have a personal selfish request to make. Do you have more of these targeted to how to get the equipment with the right software etc. IF you have video's or presentation of that...it would be great.

Also if the Open Hardware can be bought pre-configured, it would add more value.

[David Rowe]

Hello Muhammed,

> Excellent presentation and video. Thankyou on behalf of the community.
> It is very helpful.

Thanks :-)

> I have a personal selfish request to make. Do you have more of these
> targeted to how to get the equipment with the right software etc. IF
> you have video's or presentation of that...it would be great.

We have some instructions on flashing nanostation 2s:

http://wiki.villagetelco.org/index.php/How_to_use_the_software_build_environment

however no videos at this point. However I think you idea of using
video is a good one, especially later on when we have the complete Mesh
Potato hardware.

Cheers,

David