Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Olu Abejide
In the Nigeria Economic Report issued by The World Bank in May 2013, the most impoverished state in the country, Jigawa, has a poverty rate of 77.5%. This connotes that out of over 4.3million estimated inhabitants of Jigawa, 3.3million are living below the poverty line of $1.25 per day.
In rudimentary terms, 3 out of every 4 people in Jigawa are
poverty-stricken. The northern part of the country is the hardest hit by
austerity, as the north-east & north-west zones have over 70%
poverty rates. Earlier this year, a flurry of news reports purported
that the Nigerian
Bureau of Statistics (NBS) released figures which held that Sokoto,
with a poverty rate of 81.2%, was the poorest state in the country. Dr.
Yemi Kale, the Statistician-General of the nation, officially decried
the report as a ‘bogus, fictitious, baseless and inciting publication on
Sokoto State as the poorest state in Nigeria.’ The actual figures were
off-beam, but euphemistic retorts do not negate the fact that there
remains a core problem. Read More
Cornelius Hamelberg
Sir Paul McCartney asks,
“Ebony
and Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony
Side By Side on My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord, Why Don't We?”
Bob Marley also asks, in So Jah say
'Cause puss and dog they get together:
What's wrong with loving one another?
Puss and dog they get together:
What's wrong with you my brother? “
From what the media has been reporting, it’s not looking too good, even from this distance. With youth unemployment on the rise up North, coupled with an increase in a grinding poverty through which the disaffected youth feel themselves the victim of woeful deprivation, as has been explained, provides a fertile breeding ground and recruitment base for the Boko Haram insurgency which is still causing mayhem and making their presence felt. There’s no telling at which point the insurgency might move a little further South – although it’s been explained to me that big guys like Dangote have vast business empires down South, especially in the Lagos area and that reprisals and retaliation could be swift, unmistakable and the losses incurred quite substantial, should the insurgency move that far South and that’s why so far it’s being confined to the Upper Northern regions.
The country could soon be entering a dangerous new phase in the run up to the next presidential elections, especially since the North insists that it’s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and Prof. Segun Ogungbemi’s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there’s no one from the North that’s qualified to be president of Nigeria just now and such a perception only makes matters worse - but for sure, at least the military wing widely known as Boko Haram most probably shares the sentiment that it’s their turn, they are waiting for their turn, after next presidential election to taste the sweets of office and to rule Nigeria. N.B. : it could lead to a New Nigeria Spring.
All the details provided here by Ayodeji Obademi and the many details from Maryam Uwaisi’s compelling arguments for legislating against “child marriage” testify to the enormous imbalance that exists fifty years after independence between the Islamic North and the mostly Christianized South - if the statistics quoted are correct, in spite of angry refutations of Sokoto being the poorest state in the federal republic of Nigeria.
How to alleviate the North of what is being portrayed as endemic poverty? Obviously by more economic investments in the North to ameliorate the imbalance in development, and most importantly, investment in education in particular, education being the sine qua non for national development.
The realization of this imbalance, the actual experiencing of this grinding poverty on a day to day basis, with the unemployed & marginalized Northern youths must be one of the main factors fuelling the grudge and the feeling of rivalry between North and South. Attributing the religion of Islam as the main mitigating factor that accounts for the North’s alleged backwardness only adds fire to the fuel and to bring the national cooking pot to a boiling point , if this palaver that’s looming on the horizon about the rotation of the presidency now that the North says that it’s their turn and I say this as someone who is and was very disappointed to see that my man Muhammadu Buhari , the one that the BBC characterized as the honest general it seems has been robbed of presidential election victory the past three consecutive presidential elections in Nigeria.
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that’s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
“I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.”
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that’s one of the problems of Nigeria’s and indeed Africa’s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn’t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there’s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote – there’s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter – as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it’s eternally AWO vs. ZIK – has always been – to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
You asked “Is democracy based on rotation?”
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that’s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of – at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It’s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan’s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North – or take away the North’s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
“The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.
Obasanjo
was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian
president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was
President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under
the leadership of their kinsman.”
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite – others say that “the Kaduna mafia” is part of it.
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from “the elite” – if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all – as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to “share” power. In Nigerian terms Id’ say that the losers also want “their share”
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
Yours sin-cerely,
dreary Cornelius
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
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Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, “One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.” So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies “Muslim” although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says “Hausa-man” he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely geographic, and that Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn’t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa –man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Björn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it’s accurate to state that my honest man, Muhmmadu Buhari “was part of those who ruled for 38 years”, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course – predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, “My understanding of democracy is different from yours”? Well, I’ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life – and I’m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, “the powers that be” refused the Brotherhood’s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
So it’s true that we (you and I) are on the same page, that we don’t like military coups. But can we dismiss each and every coup as ”immoral”? Are there any coups that can be viewed as justifiable military interventions to save or redeem a country from a failed or failing political/corrupt democratic process? History can only judge by looking at the circumstances of that sometimes blessed intervention.
One of the reasons why I love Muhammadu Buhari so much (yes it’s personal) – and the late Tunde Idiagbon too, is that thanks to their bloodless military coup of 31st December 1983 – thus ushering in a happy new year to the Naija nation, I too was paid six months arrears of salaries within a week and not only that, the pyramids of rubbish heaps that made prominent landmarks around Mile One Market in Port Harcourt disappeared from the horizon within a week of the WAI ( War Against Indiscipline) being declared, and The Garden City of Port Harcourt once again began to live up to her name. (I had got a federal govt. contract to work in the then Bendel State whose Governor Ambrose Ali in his time devoted a whopping 50% of his budget to education – that’s a good example of governorship – but my better half fell in love with the idea of “the garden city” and moreover Rivers State offered 10% more in £sterling - and so it was Stockholm- London-Port Harcourt for the three of us. Africa must unite! Education was pretty much in the Nigerian air, my classmate and collage mate Sylvester Abimbola Young was then teaching Mathematics at the University of Benin, another classmate and college roommate, Akintola Wyse, was then teaching history at the University of Calabar. Moral issue? To my credit I never gave or solicited or received a bribe throughout nearly four years in Nigeria and corruption was widespread even then and it was this endemic corruption and mismanagement of the nation’s resources on a colossal scale that motivated the blessed Muhammadu Buhari-Tunde Idiagbon coup.
Whilst we are at it we can also refer to JJ (Junior Jesus) Flight-Lieutenant Jerry Rawlings’ first and second coming as blessed military interventions in Ghana, the Black Star Nation. Was he good for Ghana? JJ Rawlings remains the second most important influence on that nation, after the real Osagyefo Dr. Kwame Nkrumah.
I object very strongly to your asking about my man Muhammadu Buhari, “but being a Muslim: can he be trusted?” What kind of islamophobic question is that? Don’t you know that Islam is against CORRUPTION? That a real Muslim is a humble man of integrity? You know that you can’t be pumping for a united and unified Nigeria if you talk like that about Muslims and Islam.
“a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari”? A Nigerian head of state?
Professor Segun Ogungbemi, I challenge you to show me just one such leader of Nigeria apart from the late Sir Abubakar Tafawa Balewa and the late Murtala Mohammed.
My Love is waiting
Nurudeen Saliu
Mr. Ogungbemi
Although, I disagree with your opinion on General Buhari, I concede your right to say it. However, the military coup of December 1983, which eventually enthroned General Buhari, was not worse than the conduct of the election that brought NPN back to power earlier in that year. The NPN performance between 1979 and 1983, ordinarily could not have given it more vote than it had in 1979. The party disenfranchised and ran roughshod over Nigerians who would not have wanted it in 1983. Hence, any manner of dislodging it was appropriate. General Buhari’s very short tenure, and in spite of its short comings was more beneficial to the country than anything we’ve had since. Ivory tower postulations are good. The name and structure of a government should not be more important than the transformation it brings to a country.
Nurudeen Saliu
Dear Prof. Ogungbemi
Although, I disagree with your opinion on General Buhari, I concede your right to say it. However, the military coup of December 1983, which eventually enthroned General Buhari, was not worse than the conduct of the election that brought NPN back to power earlier in that year. The NPN performance between 1979 and 1983, ordinarily could not have given it more vote than it had in 1979. The party disenfranchised and ran roughshod over Nigerians who would not have wanted it in 1983. Hence, any manner of dislodging it was appropriate. General Buhari’s very short tenure, and in spite of its short comings was more beneficial to the country than anything we’ve had since. Ivory tower postulations are good. The name and structure of a government should not be more important than the transformation it brings to a country.
Regards
Dotu Salu
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [mailto:usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi
Sent: 26 July 2013 04:23
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" as Fela aptly put it.
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
cfpd_20
Segun Ogungbemi
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
WE don’t need to bring in all the other coups into this discussion, so please let’s limit ourselves to the Buhari-Idiagbon coup and leave Hitler and Abacha out of it.
Here’s a little about Islamic home training
We (concerned citizens) hereby declare your innocence and absolve you of any false charges that could ever be brought against you, since you have informed us, with this personal testimony:” I was not in Nigeria when Buhari took over the reign of power in 1983 but I read about it in the US then.” and therefore you cannot be charged with being an accessory after the fact or an accomplice to the election fraud that was passed on the people of Nigeria. He who feels it knows.
In introducing the Hardtalk programme with Governor Rotimi Amaechi, Shaun Ley tells us, that oil accounts for 20% of Nigeria’s revenue “yet more than $1 billion a month is being lost to thieves who siphon it off from remote pipelines.”
If the rule of law had been established in Nigeria, benevolent coups and re-transitions to civilian rule would not have been necessary, but as things are, the corrupt elites tend to act with impunity since they know that they are above the law. That’s the crux of the matter.
In all truth and honesty, one can only concur with Brother Nurudeen Saliu about the atrocious conduct of the 1983 elections in Nigeria – that most fraudulent of elections which I witnessed firsthand at Bakana. The baby was stolen along with the bathwater. At about 2 pm on that fateful election day the people of Bakana had finished casting their ballot and had started dancing and thus kick started the celebration known as “NPN Magic” whereby in several places in Rivers state and indeed throughout the federation, especially in NPN strongholds the number of ballots cast was in excess of the number of registered voters, and it’s reliably reported that at counting time, some of the excess ballots were thrown into the river. In Bakana, the NPP and UPN candidates were at a severe disadvantage, they were a mere handful, Levy Braide the resident Minister of agriculture commanded the support of almost everyone in Bakana. I witnessed the NPP candidate way noh fraid god – but wanted to contest against the resident minister witnessed him being dragged from the upper storey of his house, all the way down the stairs and giving the beating of his life and left as a crumbled heap just outside his abode. That was meant to teach him something. It was around that time that I learned the word “indocile” from my friend Brother Akonte Braide who was already then a scholar of “New Testament Greek” and the so called “New” Testament. In the meantime, unaware of the extent of the election malpractices, a few days later Dagens Nyheter was proclaiming the whole exercise, “A triumph for democracy in Nigeria!” Typical as with some badly informed Western enthusiasts.
So I cannot but agree with Brother Nurudeen and what he says so succinctly, that “Hence, any manner of dislodging it was appropriate. General Buhari’s very short tenure, and in spite of its short comings was more beneficial to the country than anything we’ve had since. Ivory tower postulations are good. The name and structure of a government should not be more important than the transformation it brings to a country.
Professor Ogungbemi insists, “Yes, Buhari administration got rid of some of the bad habits but some other methods would have achieved all that better.” Which “other methods “ are you talking about, when Shagari’s government was being protected and maintained in power by the Nigerian Military and Police? Should the people take on the military and police, arm to arm combat, running street battles between the Nigerian people and the well armed military? On the contrary, in 1983 it was the conscionable military that helped the hapless citizenry.
Here you are begging the question, when you say that, “Only good governance with exemplary leadership can save the continent of Africa and liberate the people from all these human inflicted problems.” So when corruption and mismanagement is entrenched in government, as was the case with Idi Amin, by what means do you think that such a governments was successfully removed? And the alternative to Amin’s removal?
In the case of the Iranian Revolution, it was all over when Imam Khomeini made it clear that the army was the people and the people was the army - by which time Savak had tired of shooting live bullets into crowds of unarmed people who were protesting in the major cities in Iran.
What is happening in Egypt deserves separate comments.
Wishing you a good weekend
Sincerely,
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
shina7...@yahoo.com
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Klalli
Segun Ogungbemi
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
shina7...@yahoo.com
I will defer to Oga Cornelius largely on an appropriate response which he has already given.
Logic cannot be divorced from life. And it certainly cannot be divorced from the moral position you are clamouring for as the best for a democratic society. Hence, the surprising illogic of a just society founded on your uncritical profiling of Muslim as an undifferentiated lots. I will continue to wonder about that.
Don't discountenance logic, Prof. It can sometime mean the difference between life and death.
I rest my case Sir!
Adeshina Afolayan
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
kenneth harrow
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.�Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.�You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.�See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.�Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! �Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.�Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
�
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" �as Fela aptly put it.�I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.�
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
�The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?�They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, �why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?�Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?�So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,�
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
�I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?�It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and �common sense of morals.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, �One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.� So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies �Muslim� although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. �Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says �Hausa-man� he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely �geographic, and that� Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn�t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa �man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Bj�rn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it�s accurate to state that my honest �man, Muhmmadu Buhari ��was part of those who ruled for 38 years�, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course � predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when� the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they �took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, �My understanding of democracy is different from yours�? Well, I�ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life � and I�m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, �the powers that be� refused the Brotherhood�s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. �I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
�
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. �I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.�I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups. �The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.�Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.�Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development? �Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.�The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?�Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.�My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.�President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.�Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee"�introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".�Segun Ogungbemi. �
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Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that�s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
�I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.�
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that�s one of the problems of Nigeria�s and indeed Africa�s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn�t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there�s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote � there�s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter � as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it�s eternally �AWO vs. ZIK � has always been � to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho� they come from the ends of the earth!
�
You asked �Is democracy based on rotation?�
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that�s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of � at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It�s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan�s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. �Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North � or take away the North�s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
�The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.�
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.�
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
�
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite � others say that �the Kaduna mafia� is part of it.
�
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from �the elite� � if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
�
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all � as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to �share� power. In Nigerian terms Id� say that the losers also want �their share�
�
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
�
Yours sin-cerely,
�
dreary Cornelius
�
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
�
�
�
�
��
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it�s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and�Prof. Segun Ogungbemi�s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there�s no one from the North that�s qualified to be president of Nigeria."��I think you misunderstood me. First,�I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. �Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly,�My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.�From the foregoing�therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic. � ��
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.
Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
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Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
the religion called nationalism, acting in the name of national interest; the religion called hegemony, dissembling its actions under the name of international peace-making; the religion called america first, acting in the name of god and country...
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
On 7/27/13 3:59 AM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.
Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.
You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.
See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.
Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.
Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
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From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" as Fela aptly put it.
I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?
They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?
Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?
So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?
It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and common sense of morals.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, “One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.” So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies “Muslim” although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says “Hausa-man” he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely geographic, and that Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn’t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa –man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Björn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it’s accurate to state that my honest man, Muhmmadu Buhari “was part of those who ruled for 38 years”, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course – predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, “My understanding of democracy is different from yours”? Well, I’ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life – and I’m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, “the powers that be” refused the Brotherhood’s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.
I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups.
The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.
Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.
Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development?
Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.
The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?
Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.
My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.
President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.
Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee" introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that’s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
“I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.”
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that’s one of the problems of Nigeria’s and indeed Africa’s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn’t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there’s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote – there’s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter – as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it’s eternally AWO vs. ZIK – has always been – to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!
You asked “Is democracy based on rotation?”
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that’s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of – at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It’s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan’s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North – or take away the North’s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
“The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.”
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite – others say that “the Kaduna mafia” is part of it.
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from “the elite” – if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all – as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to “share” power. In Nigerian terms Id’ say that the losers also want “their share”
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it’s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and Prof. Segun Ogungbemi’s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there’s no one from the North that’s qualified to be president of Nigeria."I think you misunderstood me. First, I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly, My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.From the foregoing therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic.
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.
Segun Ogungbemi.
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seems to me we have had this discussion on this list once before. maybe we have discussed everything.
i accept althusser's notion that the age of religion as the dominant ideology has yielded to that of the state, the nation state.
but i can recognize the features of belief and identity that the nation demands, its term being patriotism, and allegiance being as absolute, if not even more, than religion's.
people die so willingly for their nation; americans celebrate such deaths in image and in our education. from the beginning, as children, we are taught, "give me liberty or give me death," and we learn about the small band in boston's tea party that risked their lives to set us free, etc. etc.
the adherence nationalism demanded yielded us 100 million deaths in world war two; maybe half that in world war one. and an endless supply of wars and deaths throughout all our lifetimes. but that is not really the issue.
the subtext of this discussion is that islam is more fanatical than christianity. we have had that discussion before as well. it is premised on the notion that groups like al qaeda somehow represent all muslims, and that it is more fanatical than other groups. it is also predicated on forgetting that when bush unleashed the american response to 9/11, it was by baptising it the war on terrorism, and announcing it was to be a crusade.
he dropped the term crusade later, when his handlers found it too religious. but no one should be fooled: for americans the "war on terrorism" is a crusade of good against evil.
and this discussion, i believe, is grounded in a similar binary, with islam today representing evil, just as it did for christians in the middle ages.
that war seems to have endured, despite the conquest of the muslim world with the fall of the ottoman empire, and what is forgotten, totally, in these discussions is what it felt like, and what it feels like now, to occupy the inferior position� of the losers after the loss of autonomy. that loss was partially regained with the granting of independence to arab states, to muslim states, following world war two. but who would really claim that that independence is complete? i have to cut this short, so i'll end with those states whose history since independence attests to a partial independence: saudi arabia, the emirates, iraq, kuweit, egypt, libya, afghanistan, etc... when states resist too vehemently western hegemony, what are they termed? "rogue states," like iran! failed states, like somalia! or, as the french put it in their quaint way, states "en voie de developpement"--states on the way to development.
presumably when they are truly developed, they will have learned to behave like proper subaltern states, happy to be ruled again by chiquita banana--banana republics...
ken
Ken,�Is nationalism a religion like Christianity, Islam, African indigenous religion, Hinduism, Shintoism et cetera? Nationalism has no holy scripture, temple, shrine and any form of religious worship.�You need to elaborate on your idea of nationalism to make it comprehensible.�There is loyalty to American flag and respect for what the country stands for in terms of freedom, liberty, capitalism and democracy.�If one considers the inconsistencies in American policies around the globe and the so called American interest and the pursuit of it, it leaves one wondering.��But Reinhold Niebuhr in his book, Moral Man and Immoral Society has argued "that group relations can never be as ethical as those which characterize individual relations." George Washington has argued that nations are "not to be trusted beyond their own interest."�From the forgoing, Ken, I am not a true believer of your religion.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
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the religion called nationalism, acting in the name of national interest; the religion called hegemony, dissembling its actions under the name of international peace-making; the religion called america first, acting in the name of god and country...
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
On 7/27/13 3:59 AM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.�Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.�You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.�See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.�Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! �Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.�Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
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"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
�
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From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" �as Fela aptly put it.�I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.�
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
�The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?�They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, �why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?�Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?�So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,�
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
�I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?�It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and �common sense of morals.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
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Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, �One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.� So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies �Muslim� although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. �Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says �Hausa-man� he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely �geographic, and that� Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn�t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa �man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Bj�rn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it�s accurate to state that my honest �man, Muhmmadu Buhari ��was part of those who ruled for 38 years�, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course � predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when� the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they �took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, �My understanding of democracy is different from yours�? Well, I�ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life � and I�m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, �the powers that be� refused the Brotherhood�s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. �I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
�
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. �I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.�I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups. �The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.�Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.�Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development? �Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.�The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?�Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.�My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.�President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.�Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee"�introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".�Segun Ogungbemi. �
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Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that�s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
�I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.�
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that�s one of the problems of Nigeria�s and indeed Africa�s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn�t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there�s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote � there�s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter � as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it�s eternally �AWO vs. ZIK � has always been � to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho� they come from the ends of the earth!
�
You asked �Is democracy based on rotation?�
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that�s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of � at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It�s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan�s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. �Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North � or take away the North�s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
�The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.�
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.�
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
�
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite � others say that �the Kaduna mafia� is part of it.
�
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from �the elite� � if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
�
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all � as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to �share� power. In Nigerian terms Id� say that the losers also want �their share�
�
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
�
Yours sin-cerely,
�
dreary Cornelius
�
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
�
�
�
�
��
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it�s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and�Prof. Segun Ogungbemi�s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there�s no one from the North that�s qualified to be president of Nigeria."��I think you misunderstood me. First,�I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. �Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly,�My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.�From the foregoing�therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic. � ��
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.
Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
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He doesn't see what is intrinsically wrong with the framework of his 'moral logic' which profiles billions of Muslims as fundamentally killers without differentiation. I'm certainly he has Muslims friends and acquaintances. *Those guys should beware; the Prof. doesn't trust your intentions*
There is no doubt that political Islam has contributed its (un)fair share of violence to the world's grim graveyard of the deads. Yet, losing sight of all the other religions' atrocious offering is being philosophically disingenuous. We should stamp out Boko Haram, all its other fundamentalist manifestations as well as all forms of opprobrious and moralistic thinking that fuels such dastardly fundamentalism in the first place.
There's the solution Prof. Ogungbemi asked for. Ain't no inductive logic in that!
Adeshina Afolayan
*moving to other interesting stuffs*
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.
Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.
You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.
See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.
Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.
Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" as Fela aptly put it.
I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?
They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?
Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?
So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?
It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and common sense of morals.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, “One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.” So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies “Muslim” although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says “Hausa-man” he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely geographic, and that Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn’t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa –man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Björn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it’s accurate to state that my honest man, Muhmmadu Buhari “was part of those who ruled for 38 years”, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course – predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, “My understanding of democracy is different from yours”? Well, I’ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life – and I’m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, “the powers that be” refused the Brotherhood’s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.
I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups.
The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.
Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.
Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development?
Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.
The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?
Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.
My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.
President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.
Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee" introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that’s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
“I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.”
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that’s one of the problems of Nigeria’s and indeed Africa’s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn’t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there’s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote – there’s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter – as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it’s eternally AWO vs. ZIK – has always been – to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!
You asked “Is democracy based on rotation?”
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that’s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of – at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It’s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan’s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North – or take away the North’s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
“The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.”
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite – others say that “the Kaduna mafia” is part of it.
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from “the elite” – if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all – as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to “share” power. In Nigerian terms Id’ say that the losers also want “their share”
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it’s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and Prof. Segun Ogungbemi’s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there’s no one from the North that’s qualified to be president of Nigeria."I think you misunderstood me. First, I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly, My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.From the foregoing therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic.
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
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There's no doubt that prof Ogungbemi is seeing the issue of fundamentalism from only one prism. I'm a Muslim, not just by birth but by personal conviction. I also humbly wish to share with everyone that my first act of worship was as an Ifa acolyte. From being an Ifa acolyte as a young boy, events occasioned by an act of love from my uncles who didn't want me to roast in hell,(laugh) made them to turn me into a Christian and a Baptist specifically. As an adult, I've had stints, not as a researcher but as an ardent seeker of God, of a few other churches. I also spent about 10 years of my life in a Modrasa( islamic/ Quranic school.
Now, I'm a Muslim with uncles who are pastors, Reverends, Imams, Shieks and an Ifa priest who was the eldest member of the family until his death a few years ago.
Today, I'm married to a practicing Christian and I've not and will not preach Islam to her not to talk of compelling her or my children to join my faith. My understanding of the teachings of Islam and other religions and the place of God in spiritual direction forbids me to subtly of forcibly bring others to my religion.
Prof Ogungbemi should be encouraged to do a study of fundamentalism as an emotional state latent in all humans irrespective of race, religion or class. As a scholar, I advise him to read more robustly various manifestations of fundamentalism across cultures and creeds. For a start, I recommend Soyinka's The Credo of Being and Nothingness, Ludwig Feubarch's, The Essence of Christianity, Karen Armstrong's, Saint Paul, the First Christian. I don't remember now, the writers of the Essene Odyssey and The Way of Mystical Expression. He should add Zev Ben Shimon Halevi's, The Way of Kabbalah. These are good books. One major lesson that is obvious is that, "at source all mystical or religious traditions meet but the vessels of transmission is oftentimes corrupt". When the vessels are corrupt, fundamentalism and other vices take over. But in such instance such evil soon destroys itself giving room for a new ladder of ascent.
Peace be upon you all.
Tunji Azeez
Ag. Head
Department of Theatre Arts & Music
Lagos State University
Lagos.
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
hi segun
seems to me we have had this discussion on this list once before. maybe we have discussed everything.
i accept althusser's notion that the age of religion as the dominant ideology has yielded to that of the state, the nation state.
but i can recognize the features of belief and identity that the nation demands, its term being patriotism, and allegiance being as absolute, if not even more, than religion's.
people die so willingly for their nation; americans celebrate such deaths in image and in our education. from the beginning, as children, we are taught, "give me liberty or give me death," and we learn about the small band in boston's tea party that risked their lives to set us free, etc. etc.
the adherence nationalism demanded yielded us 100 million deaths in world war two; maybe half that in world war one. and an endless supply of wars and deaths throughout all our lifetimes. but that is not really the issue.
the subtext of this discussion is that islam is more fanatical than christianity. we have had that discussion before as well. it is premised on the notion that groups like al qaeda somehow represent all muslims, and that it is more fanatical than other groups. it is also predicated on forgetting that when bush unleashed the american response to 9/11, it was by baptising it the war on terrorism, and announcing it was to be a crusade.
he dropped the term crusade later, when his handlers found it too religious. but no one should be fooled: for americans the "war on terrorism" is a crusade of good against evil.
and this discussion, i believe, is grounded in a similar binary, with islam today representing evil, just as it did for christians in the middle ages.
that war seems to have endured, despite the conquest of the muslim world with the fall of the ottoman empire, and what is forgotten, totally, in these discussions is what it felt like, and what it feels like now, to occupy the inferior position of the losers after the loss of autonomy. that loss was partially regained with the granting of independence to arab states, to muslim states, following world war two. but who would really claim that that independence is complete? i have to cut this short, so i'll end with those states whose history since independence attests to a partial independence: saudi arabia, the emirates, iraq, kuweit, egypt, libya, afghanistan, etc... when states resist too vehemently western hegemony, what are they termed? "rogue states," like iran! failed states, like somalia! or, as the french put it in their quaint way, states "en voie de developpement"--states on the way to development.
presumably when they are truly developed, they will have learned to behave like proper subaltern states, happy to be ruled again by chiquita banana--banana republics...
ken
On 7/27/13 2:12 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
Ken,
Is nationalism a religion like Christianity, Islam, African indigenous religion, Hinduism, Shintoism et cetera? Nationalism has no holy scripture, temple, shrine and any form of religious worship.
You need to elaborate on your idea of nationalism to make it comprehensible.
There is loyalty to American flag and respect for what the country stands for in terms of freedom, liberty, capitalism and democracy.
If one considers the inconsistencies in American policies around the globe and the so called American interest and the pursuit of it, it leaves one wondering.
But Reinhold Niebuhr in his book, Moral Man and Immoral Society has argued "that group relations can never be as ethical as those which characterize individual relations." George Washington has argued that nations are "not to be trusted beyond their own interest."
From the forgoing, Ken, I am not a true believer of your religion.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
the religion called nationalism, acting in the name of national interest; the religion called hegemony, dissembling its actions under the name of international peace-making; the religion called america first, acting in the name of god and country...
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
On 7/27/13 3:59 AM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.
Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.
You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.
See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.
Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.
Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" as Fela aptly put it.
I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?
They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?
Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?
So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?
It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and common sense of morals.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, “One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.” So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies “Muslim” although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says “Hausa-man” he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely geographic, and that Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn’t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa –man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Björn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it’s accurate to state that my honest man, Muhmmadu Buhari “was part of those who ruled for 38 years”, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course – predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, “My understanding of democracy is different from yours”? Well, I’ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life – and I’m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, “the powers that be” refused the Brotherhood’s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.
I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups.
The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.
Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.
Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development?
Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.
The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?
Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.
My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.
President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.
Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee" introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that’s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
“I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.”
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that’s one of the problems of Nigeria’s and indeed Africa’s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn’t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there’s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote – there’s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter – as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it’s eternally AWO vs. ZIK – has always been – to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!
You asked “Is democracy based on rotation?”
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that’s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of – at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It’s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan’s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North – or take away the North’s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
“The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.”
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite – others say that “the Kaduna mafia” is part of it.
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from “the elite” – if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all – as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to “share” power. In Nigerian terms Id’ say that the losers also want “their share”
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it’s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and Prof. Segun Ogungbemi’s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there’s no one from the North that’s qualified to be president of Nigeria."I think you misunderstood me. First, I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly, My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.From the foregoing therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic.
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
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Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
kenneth harrow
thanks for sharing your story with us. with the little that i know, i could only wish that all nigerians could accomplish your tolerance in personal terms, and your non-dogmatic spirit. with the mix of peoples and faiths, nigeria should be a real light for others, instead of being the divided state it is now. you might need to explain how you managed to accomplish this degree of tolerance; i assume your answer, the love from your uncles, was central to this.
very nice posting from you
ken
Adeshina and prof,
There's no doubt that prof Ogungbemi is seeing the issue of fundamentalism from only one prism. I'm a Muslim, not just by birth but by personal conviction. I also humbly wish to share with everyone that my first act of worship was as an Ifa acolyte. From being an Ifa acolyte as a young boy, events occasioned by an act of love from my uncles who didn't want me to roast in hell,(laugh) made them to turn me into a Christian and a Baptist specifically. As an adult, I've had stints, not as a researcher but as an ardent seeker of God, of a few other churches. I also spent about 10 years of my life in a Modrasa( islamic/ Quranic school.
Now, I'm a Muslim with uncles who are pastors, Reverends, Imams, Shieks and an Ifa priest who was the eldest member of the family until his death a few years ago.
Today, I'm married to a practicing Christian and I've not and will not preach Islam to her not to talk of compelling her or my children to join my faith. My understanding of the teachings of Islam and other religions and the place of God in spiritual direction forbids me to subtly of forcibly bring others to my religion.
Prof Ogungbemi should be encouraged to do a study of fundamentalism as an emotional state latent in all humans irrespective of race, religion or class. As a scholar, I advise him to read more robustly various manifestations of fundamentalism across cultures and creeds. For a start, I recommend Soyinka's The Credo of Being and Nothingness, Ludwig Feubarch's, The Essence of Christianity, Karen Armstrong's, Saint Paul, the First Christian. I don't remember now, the writers of the Essene Odyssey and The Way of Mystical Expression. He should add Zev Ben Shimon Halevi's, The Way of Kabbalah. These are good books. One major lesson that is obvious is that, "at source all mystical or religious traditions meet but the vessels of transmission is oftentimes corrupt". When the vessels are corrupt, fundamentalism and other vices take over. But in such instance such evil soon destroys itself giving room for a new ladder of ascent.
Peace be upon you all.
Tunji Azeez
Ag. Head
Department of Theatre Arts & Music
Lagos State University
Lagos.
Sent from my BlackBerry� smartphone provided by Airtel Nigeria.
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.�Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.�You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.�See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.�Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! �Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.�Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
�
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" �as Fela aptly put it.�I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.�
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
�The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?�They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, �why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?�Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?�So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,�
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
�I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?�It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and �common sense of morals.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, �One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.� So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies �Muslim� although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. �Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says �Hausa-man� he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely �geographic, and that� Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn�t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa �man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Bj�rn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it�s accurate to state that my honest �man, Muhmmadu Buhari ��was part of those who ruled for 38 years�, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course � predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when� the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they �took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, �My understanding of democracy is different from yours�? Well, I�ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life � and I�m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, �the powers that be� refused the Brotherhood�s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. �I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
�
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. �I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.�I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups. �The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.�Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.�Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development? �Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.�The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?�Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.�My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.�President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.�Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee"�introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".�Segun Ogungbemi. �
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that�s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
�I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.�
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that�s one of the problems of Nigeria�s and indeed Africa�s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn�t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there�s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote � there�s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter � as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it�s eternally �AWO vs. ZIK � has always been � to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho� they come from the ends of the earth!
�
You asked �Is democracy based on rotation?�
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that�s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of � at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It�s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan�s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. �Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North � or take away the North�s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
�The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.�
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.�
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
�
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite � others say that �the Kaduna mafia� is part of it.
�
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from �the elite� � if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
�
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all � as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to �share� power. In Nigerian terms Id� say that the losers also want �their share�
�
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
�
Yours sin-cerely,
�
dreary Cornelius
�
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
�
�
�
�
��
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it�s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and�Prof. Segun Ogungbemi�s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there�s no one from the North that�s qualified to be president of Nigeria."��I think you misunderstood me. First,�I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. �Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly,�My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.�From the foregoing�therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic. � ��
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.
Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
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Anunoby, Ogugua
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:24 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairsken
Cornelius Hamelberg
Sir Ogugua Anunoby,
Since any decisive military action from Goodluck Jonathan would probably be seen as a Christian/Kuffar crusade against the Boko Haram jihadists, it remains to be seen how a Northern (Muslim) President of Nigeria will handle Boko Haram and if Boko Haram will continue its Jihad or will fall in line and the jihad will subside with good governance.
Of course Boko Haram is not going to “have her way”. Her? However, should the Boko Haram people smell victory then things will get a lot worse.
As for the other countries that you have mentioned, starting with Egypt, let us pray, and I hope that you see more clearly the kinds of problems that Israel is facing now, on the eve of releasing hundreds of Palestinian terrorists from Israeli jails. What we are seeing in neighbouring Syria and Egypt are nothing less than implosions of countries in the grip of various forces caught in an Islamic frenzy, convulsions which in no time at all can spill over to the Golan and from Sinai into Israel proper and then we’ll have to find a new word, with so many dangerous weapons around, maybe cataclysmic would be an understatement...
Oyinlola Longe
At least the religious Muslims are protesting against the political ones in Egypt. Not so in Nigeria. Makes you wonder if they are not one and the same.
O.
On 28 Jul 2013 03:50, "Anunoby, Ogugua" <Anun...@lincolnu.edu> wrote:
I am thinking that a distinction needs to be made between Islam as a set of religious beliefs and Islam as a political movement that seeks political domination of both Muslims and non-Muslims in a state. Al Qaeda is an example of the latter. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is another example. The political situation in Egypt right now, seems to me to be a direct result of the conflict between religious Islam and political Islam. A majority of Egyptians are Muslims. I would like to think that the majority of this majority are devout Muslims. What is the problem in Egypt one may wonder? One group of the Muslim majority (the Muslim Brotherhood) it seems to me has sought for decades to govern Egypt in the light of her interpretation of Islam which unfortunately not all Egyptians agree with. Morsi it seems was either oblivious of this difference or felt confident to ignore it. The history of Morsi's folly or wisdom, is still unfolding.Boko Haram in Nigeria iis from al indications a political Islam group. The group is either oblivious of the rejection by a majority (I dare to say) of Nigerians of their interpretation of I slam or have chosen to ignore it. Her leaders must know well that what they preach will not work and has never worked- not even in the land of Islam's birth. The group does not accept that Nigeria is or should be a multi-faith country. It is not acceptable to the group therefore that Nigeria should be led by a Nigeria who is non-Muslim, or indeed a Nigerian Muslim who is not at peace with the groups interpretation of Islam. Non-extremists Nigerian Muslims who support or are inclined to support Boko Haram are well advised to look to Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Turkey, and Yemen for what might become of Nigeria if Boko Haram has her way.oia
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:24 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairsken
Dear Ken,
I have taken time to reflect on what you have brilliantly posted. Yes, loyalty to a nation...
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kenneth harrow
ken
I am thinking that a distinction needs to be made between Islam as a set of religious beliefs and�Islam as a political�movement that seeks�political domination of both�Muslims and non-Muslims in a state. Al Qaeda is an example of the latter. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt�is another example. The political situation in Egypt right now, seems to me to be a direct result of the conflict between religious Islam and political Islam. A majority of Egyptians are Muslims. I�would like to think that�the majority of this majority are devout Muslims. What is the problem in Egypt one may wonder? One group of the Muslim majority (the Muslim Brotherhood) it seems to me has sought for decades to govern Egypt in the light of her interpretation of Islam which unfortunately not all Egyptians agree with.�Morsi it seems was either oblivious of this difference or felt confident to ignore it. The history of�Morsi's folly or wisdom, is still unfolding.Boko�Haram�in Nigeria�iis from al indications a political Islam group. The group is either oblivious of the rejection by a majority (I dare to say) of Nigerians of their�interpretation of I slam or have chosen to ignore it. Her�leaders must know well that what they preach will not work and has never worked- not even in the land of�Islam's birth. The group does not accept that Nigeria is or should be�a multi-faith country. It is not�acceptable to the group therefore that Nigeria should be led by a Nigeria who is non-Muslim, or indeed a�Nigerian Muslim who is not at peace with the groups�interpretation� of Islam.�Non-extremists�Nigerian Muslims who support or are inclined to support�Boko�Haram are well advised to look to Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia,�Turkey, and Yemen for what might become of Nigeria if�Boko�Haram has her way.����oia�
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:24 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairsken
Dear Ken,I have taken time to reflect on what you have brilliantly posted. Yes, loyalty to a nation like America is more than being religious.�There is what is called religious obsession that respects no bounds. There is also nationalistic extreme loyalty with indoctrinations of obsession as seen American life. Both are two extremes. �Muslims from your historical analysis have lost their grip on power and they are bent on regaining it. Nothing is wrong for being ambitious for one's religion or country but killings of human beings for any reason is morally unacceptable. I am not a pacifist but I believe in some of their doctrines. Jesus the Christ was a pacifist and he expected his disciples to be like him.�Christian crusades were against the teaching of Jesus the Christ the moment they became violent. Love your enemies and treat them well for by so doing you will redeem them. That was the injunction given to his disciples.�This may sound too simplistic and not true in real life situation considering Hobbes' state of nature.�At this juncture, please don't think I am a Christian. Far from it. But there are certain things one can learn from religions since they are not harmful to human existence. So, what I have said is one of them.�Ken, you and I share certain ideas together and I want to thank you for your contribution to this discourse.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
hi segun
seems to me we have had this discussion on this list once before. maybe we have discussed everything.
i accept althusser's notion that the age of religion as the dominant ideology has yielded to that of the state, the nation state.
but i can recognize the features of belief and identity that the nation demands, its term being patriotism, and allegiance being as absolute, if not even more, than religion's.
people die so willingly for their nation; americans celebrate such deaths in image and in our education. from the beginning, as children, we are taught, "give me liberty or give me death," and we learn about the small band in boston's tea party that risked their lives to set us free, etc. etc.
the adherence nationalism demanded yielded us 100 million deaths in world war two; maybe half that in world war one. and an endless supply of wars and deaths throughout all our lifetimes. but that is not really the issue.
the subtext of this discussion is that islam is more fanatical than christianity. we have had that discussion before as well. it is premised on the notion that groups like al qaeda somehow represent all muslims, and that it is more fanatical than other groups. it is also predicated on forgetting that when bush unleashed the american response to 9/11, it was by baptising it the war on terrorism, and announcing it was to be a crusade.
he dropped the term crusade later, when his handlers found it too religious. but no one should be fooled: for americans the "war on terrorism" is a crusade of good against evil.
and this discussion, i believe, is grounded in a similar binary, with islam today representing evil, just as it did for christians in the middle ages.
that war seems to have endured, despite the conquest of the muslim world with the fall of the ottoman empire, and what is forgotten, totally, in these discussions is what it felt like, and what it feels like now, to occupy the inferior position� of the losers after the loss of autonomy. that loss was partially regained with the granting of independence to arab states, to muslim states, following world war two. but who would really claim that that independence is complete? i have to cut this short, so i'll end with those states whose history since independence attests to a partial independence: saudi arabia, the emirates, iraq, kuweit, egypt, libya, afghanistan, etc... when states resist too vehemently western hegemony, what are they termed? "rogue states," like iran! failed states, like somalia! or, as the french put it in their quaint way, states "en voie de developpement"--states on the way to development.
presumably when they are truly developed, they will have learned to behave like proper subaltern states, happy to be ruled again by chiquita banana--banana republics...
ken
On 7/27/13 2:12 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
Ken,�Is nationalism a religion like Christianity, Islam, African indigenous religion, Hinduism, Shintoism et cetera? Nationalism has no holy scripture, temple, shrine and any form of religious worship.�You need to elaborate on your idea of nationalism to make it comprehensible.�There is loyalty to American flag and respect for what the country stands for in terms of freedom, liberty, capitalism and democracy.�If one considers the inconsistencies in American policies around the globe and the so called American interest and the pursuit of it, it leaves one wondering.��But Reinhold Niebuhr in his book, Moral Man and Immoral Society has argued "that group relations can never be as ethical as those which characterize individual relations." George Washington has argued that nations are "not to be trusted beyond their own interest."�From the forgoing, Ken, I am not a true believer of your religion.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
the religion called nationalism, acting in the name of national interest; the religion called hegemony, dissembling its actions under the name of international peace-making; the religion called america first, acting in the name of god and country...
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
On 7/27/13 3:59 AM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.�Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.�You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.�See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.�Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! �Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.�Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
�
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" �as Fela aptly put it.�I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.�
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
�The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?�They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, �why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?�Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?�So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,�
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
�I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?�It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and �common sense of morals.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, �One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.� So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies �Muslim� although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. �Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says �Hausa-man� he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely �geographic, and that� Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn�t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa �man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Bj�rn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it�s accurate to state that my honest �man, Muhmmadu Buhari ��was part of those who ruled for 38 years�, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course � predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when� the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they �took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, �My understanding of democracy is different from yours�? Well, I�ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life � and I�m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, �the powers that be� refused the Brotherhood�s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. �I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. �I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.�I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups. �The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.�Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.�Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development? �Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.�The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?�Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.�My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.�President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.�Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee"�introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".�Segun Ogungbemi. �
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Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that�s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
�I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.�
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that�s one of the problems of Nigeria�s and indeed Africa�s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn�t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there�s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote � there�s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter � as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it�s eternally �AWO vs. ZIK � has always been � to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho� they come from the ends of the earth!
�
You asked �Is democracy based on rotation?�
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that�s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of � at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It�s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan�s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. �Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North � or take away the North�s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
�The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.�
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.�
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
�
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite � others say that �the Kaduna mafia� is part of it.
�
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from �the elite� � if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
�
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all � as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to �share� power. In Nigerian terms Id� say that the losers also want �their share�
�
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
�
Yours sin-cerely,
�
dreary Cornelius
�
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
�
�
�
�
��
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it�s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and�Prof. Segun Ogungbemi�s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there�s no one from the North that�s qualified to be president of Nigeria."��I think you misunderstood me. First,�I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. �Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly,�My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.�From the foregoing�therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic. � ��
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.
Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.�Segun Ogungbemi.�
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Segun Ogungbemi
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Anunoby, Ogugua
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kenneth harrow [har...@msu.edu]
Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2013 1:56 AM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairsken
ken
I am thinking that a distinction needs to be made between Islam as a set of religious beliefs and Islam as a political movement that seeks political domination of both Muslims and non-Muslims in a state. Al Qaeda is an example of the latter. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is another example. The political situation in Egypt right now, seems to me to be a direct result of the conflict between religious Islam and political Islam. A majority of Egyptians are Muslims. I would like to think that the majority of this majority are devout Muslims. What is the problem in Egypt one may wonder? One group of the Muslim majority (the Muslim Brotherhood) it seems to me has sought for decades to govern Egypt in the light of her interpretation of Islam which unfortunately not all Egyptians agree with. Morsi it seems was either oblivious of this difference or felt confident to ignore it. The history of Morsi's folly or wisdom, is still unfolding.Boko Haram in Nigeria iis from al indications a political Islam group. The group is either oblivious of the rejection by a majority (I dare to say) of Nigerians of their interpretation of I slam or have chosen to ignore it. Her leaders must know well that what they preach will not work and has never worked- not even in the land of Islam's birth. The group does not accept that Nigeria is or should be a multi-faith country. It is not acceptable to the group therefore that Nigeria should be led by a Nigeria who is non-Muslim, or indeed a Nigerian Muslim who is not at peace with the groups interpretation of Islam. Non-extremists Nigerian Muslims who support or are inclined to support Boko Haram are well advised to look to Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Turkey, and Yemen for what might become of Nigeria if Boko Haram has her way.oia
From: usaafric...@googlegroups.com [usaafric...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Segun Ogungbemi [segun...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2013 1:24 PM
To: usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairsken
Dear Ken,I have taken time to reflect on what you have brilliantly posted. Yes, loyalty to a nation like America is more than being religious.
There is what is called religious obsession that respects no bounds. There is also nationalistic extreme loyalty with indoctrinations of obsession as seen American life. Both are two extremes.
Muslims from your historical analysis have lost their grip on power and they are bent on regaining it. Nothing is wrong for being ambitious for one's religion or country but killings of human beings for any reason is morally unacceptable. I am not a pacifist but I believe in some of their doctrines. Jesus the Christ was a pacifist and he expected his disciples to be like him.
Christian crusades were against the teaching of Jesus the Christ the moment they became violent. Love your enemies and treat them well for by so doing you will redeem them. That was the injunction given to his disciples.
This may sound too simplistic and not true in real life situation considering Hobbes' state of nature.
At this juncture, please don't think I am a Christian. Far from it. But there are certain things one can learn from religions since they are not harmful to human existence. So, what I have said is one of them.
Ken, you and I share certain ideas together and I want to thank you for your contribution to this discourse.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
hi segun
seems to me we have had this discussion on this list once before. maybe we have discussed everything.
i accept althusser's notion that the age of religion as the dominant ideology has yielded to that of the state, the nation state.
but i can recognize the features of belief and identity that the nation demands, its term being patriotism, and allegiance being as absolute, if not even more, than religion's.
people die so willingly for their nation; americans celebrate such deaths in image and in our education. from the beginning, as children, we are taught, "give me liberty or give me death," and we learn about the small band in boston's tea party that risked their lives to set us free, etc. etc.
the adherence nationalism demanded yielded us 100 million deaths in world war two; maybe half that in world war one. and an endless supply of wars and deaths throughout all our lifetimes. but that is not really the issue.
the subtext of this discussion is that islam is more fanatical than christianity. we have had that discussion before as well. it is premised on the notion that groups like al qaeda somehow represent all muslims, and that it is more fanatical than other groups. it is also predicated on forgetting that when bush unleashed the american response to 9/11, it was by baptising it the war on terrorism, and announcing it was to be a crusade.
he dropped the term crusade later, when his handlers found it too religious. but no one should be fooled: for americans the "war on terrorism" is a crusade of good against evil.
and this discussion, i believe, is grounded in a similar binary, with islam today representing evil, just as it did for christians in the middle ages.
that war seems to have endured, despite the conquest of the muslim world with the fall of the ottoman empire, and what is forgotten, totally, in these discussions is what it felt like, and what it feels like now, to occupy the inferior position of the losers after the loss of autonomy. that loss was partially regained with the granting of independence to arab states, to muslim states, following world war two. but who would really claim that that independence is complete? i have to cut this short, so i'll end with those states whose history since independence attests to a partial independence: saudi arabia, the emirates, iraq, kuweit, egypt, libya, afghanistan, etc... when states resist too vehemently western hegemony, what are they termed? "rogue states," like iran! failed states, like somalia! or, as the french put it in their quaint way, states "en voie de developpement"--states on the way to development.
presumably when they are truly developed, they will have learned to behave like proper subaltern states, happy to be ruled again by chiquita banana--banana republics...
ken
On 7/27/13 2:12 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
Ken,
Is nationalism a religion like Christianity, Islam, African indigenous religion, Hinduism, Shintoism et cetera? Nationalism has no holy scripture, temple, shrine and any form of religious worship.
You need to elaborate on your idea of nationalism to make it comprehensible.
There is loyalty to American flag and respect for what the country stands for in terms of freedom, liberty, capitalism and democracy.
If one considers the inconsistencies in American policies around the globe and the so called American interest and the pursuit of it, it leaves one wondering.
But Reinhold Niebuhr in his book, Moral Man and Immoral Society has argued "that group relations can never be as ethical as those which characterize individual relations." George Washington has argued that nations are "not to be trusted beyond their own interest."
From the forgoing, Ken, I am not a true believer of your religion.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
the religion called nationalism, acting in the name of national interest; the religion called hegemony, dissembling its actions under the name of international peace-making; the religion called america first, acting in the name of god and country...
add up the numbers killed, maimed, and dominated, and we win hands down
and if you don't think the latter is a religion, you ain't a true believer
ken
On 7/27/13 3:59 AM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
It is not all Muslims who committed the global violence including 9/11 but those who did it were Muslims. Name any religious organizations in the world that have used violence of the magnitude the world has witnessed in the last two decades.
Let us leave deductive and inductive methods of reasoning out of this and face the reality of morals confronting us.
You have not examined what I have said and come out with concrete counter moral arguments. This is not about logic. It is about moral reasoning.
See what Boko Haram sect has done in the last few years to their fellow Nigerians. Can all these killings and destruction of property be morally justified? To me that is the issue.
Let us leave religious bigotry apart and face a common moral denominator. Human life is sacred. Early this year, a friend of mine living in Kano lost one of his sons who was planning to come home the following day and a group of Muslims saw him and short him dead at a close range very close to the gate of their house. Recently, about 10 Yoruba women traders went to Maiduguri in Brono State to buy foodstuff and they were killed by Boko Haram sect. Defenseless innocent women! Forty two secondary students were gruesomely murdered by the same Muslim zealots.
Human lives were destroyed just like that and you are talking about logic? Use moral logic not inductive or deductive logic Adeshina.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
"Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.". Prof. Ogungbemi
For you Sir, being a Muslim has become an undifferentiated category? All Muslims are now, by that fact alone, become complicit in 9/11? All Muslims are intrinsically dangerous? Buhari is disqualified simply because he is Muslim? And therefore, no Muslim is good for anything, not the presidency?
Ah!
I suspect you will deny/reject these assumptions. Just wondering on what basis you'll wriggle out these uncritical assumptions Sir.
Adeshina Afolayan
Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN
From: Segun Ogungbemi <segun...@gmail.com>Sender: usaafric...@googlegroups.comDate: Fri, 26 Jul 2013 04:22:43 +0100ReplyTo: usaafric...@googlegroups.comSubject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: Nigeria: Boko Haram, poverty, Jonathan and the game of musical chairs
Thanks brother Cornelius. Everyone wants power. The use of that power when it is given freely or forcefully acquired becomes a moral issue. Buhari came to power not by any democratic means at all. All military coups against a constitutionally and democratically elected government is an aberration. Buhari usurped power forcefully and governed for roughly two years and another coup swept his administration out. "Soldier go soldier come" as Fela aptly put it.
I have no respect for soldiers who abandoned their official responsibility and usurped power forcefully. It is immoral and unacceptable.
Buhari as a person is a pleasant person but being a Muslim: can he be trusted? See what Muslims have turned the world to around the globe. Must Muslims be violent to able to correct a political system or an immoral government? See what they did everywhere in the world today.
The 9/11 in 2001 still makes me sick inside. For such a heinous crime to be committed against humanity was initially unimaginable. Are Muslims the only people in the world?
They have no tolerance and respect for human life. If they don't want to live here on earth, why can't they leave for alijana peacefully and quietly and let those who want to live here enjoy the short span of life given to them by nature?
Take a look at Nigerian history, has any religious group been so violent as Muslims? I have lived in this country for 67 years, I have never seen such a carnage done to one's country like what the Muslims have done to Nigeria and their leaders including Buhari would stand aloof without intervention. How can such a person say he wants my vote at the polls? He will never get it. It is not Buhari alone but all those northern leaders who see the kind of carnage Boko Haram Muslim sect has done to innocent Nigerians including children and students and failed to stop it and yet seek to become president come 2015. Is that the way to lead?
So Cornelius, have a critical assessment of the situation as discussed above and see how Nigeria can be united by a leader of a better track record than your man, Buhari,
You live in Sweden because it is a peaceful environment and the people are probably tolerant and accommodating.
I had lived in the US for several years and I have respect for their tolerance and accommodating spirit. It is not a perfect society but it is still the best I have seen in my life. Why don't we aspire to be like that or like Sweden where you live?
It is time to rethink without any emotion but just on rational ground and common sense of morals.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi
The only reason why I sometimes ask probing questions is to benefit from enlightening answers. Hillel the Elder used to say, “One who does not increase his knowledge decreases it.” So, I can only congratulate you, Kusheh, and that your latest response has caused a much valued increase and a diminishing of ignorance on my part.
Generally speaking, Northerner (in Nigeria) usually implies “Muslim” although there are minority Christians such as Samuel-Szalanaga 7994 whose observations as witnessed here deserve our attention. Having lived with Igbos in Nigeria, for almost four years, I know that when the Igbo says “Hausa-man” he means Muslim and that Islam is an essential feature of Northern identity, superseding the merely geographic, and that Islam is usually a strong component in Northern identity, since it also encompasses the cultural. Ok, so Gowon wasn’t Muslim and I even met an anomaly Hausa –man, one Rev. Muhammad who was studying political science and Human Rights here at Stockholm University, in Sweden a student of Professor Björn Beckman.
Here you were stretching it a little. Thou shalt not exaggerate. I do not believe that it’s accurate to state that my honest man, Muhmmadu Buhari “was part of those who ruled for 38 years”, when in fact he was only head of state from December 31, 1983 to August 27, 1985. He did some real cleaning up before he was deposed by Babangida. The only mistake that Muhammadu Buhari made was that on departing for Mecca he promised that when he returned to Nigeria he would complete the cleaning up exercise and of course – predictably, the corrupt ones then knew that their period of impunity would come to an end when the honest general returned from Mecca , and expecting that their corruption was going to be severely punished, cleaned up, they took the pre-emptive action of deposing him whilst he was still on pilgrimage...
You say, “My understanding of democracy is different from yours”? Well, I’ve lived in a democratic country, Sweden, most of my life – and I’m sure that both of us agree that democracy is not only about running free and fair elections but also about strengthening democratic institutions and that that should be a goal to work for in Nigeria.
I know for a fact that with all the transparency in the world, there are still behind the scenes, horse-trading and what not in selecting/ electing a flag-bear to contest presidential elections. In Egypt for example, somehow, “the powers that be” refused the Brotherhood’s number one candidate the right to lead his party and to contest the presidential elections. That was immoral. I cannot see the immorality in the PDP deciding in advance, this time the candidate will be a southerner on condition that the next time he or she will be a Northerner and sealing a deal on that understanding. But to renege on that understanding, that would be immoral.
The presidency of the general assembly at the UN is done on a rotational basis. Is that also immoral Sir?
I am certainly not at all qualified to run for any political post in Nigeria or elsewhere.
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 22:57:40 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,Once again, I appreciate your response but let me clear the issue of my identity. I am an indigenous Yagba in the present Yagba East Local Government, Kogi State, Nigeria. Geographically, Kogi State is in the north hence I am a Northerner. Culturally, traditionally and linguistically I am Yoruba. Therefore, I have a dual identity by virtue of geographical and cultural locations.
I don't have any political ambition for now and so I don't solicit for support from any ethnic groups.
The issue I want you to examine is this: If the north held on to power at the centre for 38 years and they did not make it to trickle down to the least well off, how can Buhari you support make it to happen when in actual fact he was part of those who ruled for 38 years? Find out the measure of trickle that got to his people then.
Pa Awolowo ruled in the defunct Western Region and made the most remarkable impact on his people with the free education program which till today gave the Yoruba an edge in Nigeria. In Ogun State today, they have not less than 9 Universities which make it the only State in the Federation to have the largest number of both public and private universities. This does not include other tertiary institutions in Ogun State. Southwestern Nigeria has the largest number of industries in Nigeria including finance houses- I mean backing industries.
Northern governors receive federal allocation monthly from federation accounts so also their local councils. Tell us where is the huge money they receive monthly used for in terms of education, health, poverty reduction and development?
Please find out from the rich elites in the north how many private universities have they established in their states as groups or individuals.
The Ibos are basically commercial entrepreneurs with a few of them in education. They still have more private universities in their states than the north. How many Presidents have the Ibos produced since independence and yet educationally they are better than the so called numerical north?
Poverty and illiteracy have become appendage attribute of the north not because they have not had heads of state or presidents democratically elected from the region since independence but because such leaders never put education of their people on the front burner.
My understanding of democracy is different from yours. There is no way, I believe, you can justify rotational presidency on moral grounds and call it authentic democracy.
President Jonathan is an academic who never had enough experience in Nigerian politics before he was elected. His credentials plus his age and of course his humility endeared him to most of us who voted for him. If he wants to contest again, he will have to show his scorecards of achievements. It is the electorate who will determine his fate not you and I. So let us see how it goes if at the end of the day he wants to continue in office. You are as qualified as President Jonathan and Buhari to contest but the choice is yours.
Merit should be the barometer with which to measure who is fit to be our president and not by rotational "arrangee" introduced by PDP political party of "carry go".Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
Of course I am and was aware that you are from the North as that’s the first surprising point that you made in the letter that I referred to, in which you said,
“I am from the north and it is not true that the north can boast of holding to power at the centre as stated by Prof. Abdullahi.”
I was initially surprised because both your names, your first name Segun and your surname Ogungbemi are unmistakably Yoruba names and even after having made the probable location of your birth clear (Kwarra?) I still concluded that you are a Yoruba man just like me - no matter from what part of the Diaspora you shed your first tears or whether or not your umbilical cord is buried in the Sokoto, Borno or the more liberal Kaduna area.
But jokes aside that’s one of the problems of Nigeria’s and indeed Africa’s regional and tribal politics: you may be born, bred and buried in the North alright but your name proclaims you Yoruba. So which bona fide Hausa man is going to take your self-proclaimed Northern identity, seriously, just because you maybe grew up in that environment? It certainly didn’t save the Igbo traders, many of whom were born and bred in the North when the pogroms against the Igbo were perpetrated just prior to Biafra seceding as a safe haven for the Igbo people!
Of course, my dear professor, there’s no doubt that you are eminently, even pre-eminently qualified to contest the presidential elections as a Northerner who would also sweep the Yoruba vote – there’s no doubt about that, however, sweeping the Igbo vote with a name like that, would be quite another matter – as the South of Nigeria is divided between the South West and the South East, literary feuds Soyinka & supporters vs. The ascended Achebe & his fans, whilst in politics proper it’s eternally AWO vs. ZIK – has always been – to the extent that we can quote imperial Kipling symbolically, that
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!
You asked “Is democracy based on rotation?”
In my view, acceding to the rotation role playing politics in Nigeria is in the national interest of peace & prosperity and to allay both the fear and lessen the ever increasing tensions based on a perceived imbalance between the North and the South in terms of development, education, and that this perceived injustice that’s the main cause of the abject poverty in the North will be more easily righted by a Northern president. Nor do I think that the rotation system agreed upon by the PDP as an internal matter, a compromise of understanding, is in any way "undemocratic"
So, I am making a point in favour of – at this time - anointing a Northern as the presidential candidate for the PDP, most likely with a Southern running mate.
It’s easy to see without looking too far that if that does not happen then Goodluck Jonathan’s next logical option will be to retire a few more Northern Generals in the Nigerian military, to pre-empt a coup. Of course, this is standard practice: In their time, Babangida and Abacha played it safe by retiring scores of Yoruba generals and other Yoruba top military brass.
As to the question of whether or not a Northern president will uplift the North, here is your answer below, but your answer does not solve the perceived injustice or the current poverty in the North – or take away the North’s motivation to capture/ re-capture the presidency.
Your views on this:
“The educational backwardness of the north as it is known today is not the kind that anyone can be proud of. You don't have to have a northerner as president to make life better for all northerners. Any Nigerian who becomes president of the country can do that. Let the leadership of the north since 1966-2013 show the scorecards of their achievements. For 38 years the north had ruled this country and nothing to show for it, particularly in the north. What have the masses gained from the period they had ruled the country? I think that should be what Ango ought to be concerned about and not that the north will hold on to power come 2015 as long as they want on the basis of their numerical voting power.
Obasanjo was in power for 11 years altogether as military head of state and civilian president of Nigeria. Were the Yoruba better off than when Yar'Adua was President of Nigeria? The Yoruba will tell you that they were worse off under the leadership of their kinsman.”
You are surely overlooking the patronage that a Yoruba would receive when his kinsman is in power, ditto for the Hausa, the Fulani and of course the Igbo, and therefore, all the more reason for them to fight for their folks to be at the helm of the big business, so that at least a few kobo, more than a dollar a day should trickle down.
In one of his interviews Muhammadu Buhari talks about the elite and later on goes on to identify himself with that elite. This suggests to me that a Northern candidate usually comes from the elite – others say that “the Kaduna mafia” is part of it.
My impression is that Goodluck Jonathan is not from “the elite” – if anything is very much from the grassroots albeit nothing like my old icon, Michael Imoudu. You ask yourself the question, is Goodluck Jonathan the best that the system was able to deliver to Nigeria?
Finally, this democracy business (crazy-demo Fela calls it) by which the winner takes all – as happened in Egypt where the losers wanted to “share” power. In Nigerian terms Id’ say that the losers also want “their share”
Please excuse some of my stray observations.
On Thursday, 25 July 2013 06:46:50 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Drear Cornelius,Thanks for making reference to me in this debate. You said and I quote,..."since the North insists that it’s their turn according to a rotation system agreed upon, and Prof. Segun Ogungbemi’s misgivings about the matters notwithstanding,(he sounds as if there’s no one from the North that’s qualified to be president of Nigeria."I think you misunderstood me. First, I am from the North and there are many more people like me who are well qualified to be elected president of this country from the region. Therefore, your insinuation is incorrect. Secondly, My view is that rotational presidency is a PDP internal arrangement within the party which is not in our constitution. The demerit of it all is that it promotes disunity rather than unity which is what we are witnessing today.From the foregoing therefore, my proposal is that the best way to secure unity in Nigerian politics is to elect anyone who is mostly suited for the job regardless which ethnic group s/he comes from in Nigeria. That will foster unity and promote enduring and genuine democracy. In other words, it will be seen to be constitutional and authentically democratic.
Of course, you have every right to think that Buhari is suitable for job but it should not be based on where he comes from. And more importantly the electorate is to make that decision at the polls.Merit and the electorate not any rotation should be the basis of our guide for the choice we make.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
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Segun Ogungbemi
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Cornelius Hamelberg
Still thinking about Professor Harrow’s definitions of” the religion called nationalism”. In so many words Professor Chomsky agrees with Professor Harrow, especially in his “What we say goes!”
Chomsky now wants Europe to lend a helping hand.
“They say that patriotism
is the last refuge
To which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail
Steal a lot and they make you king”
A short discussion about the State-ism
Ideology, much of which is found in Islam, is known as Islamism, and Islamism has on several occasions during the past century, been an essential component in Pan-Arab nationalism. It looks like where you find oil, there too you find Islam. Nowadays, moving south faster than the Sahara desert, Islam has moved steadfastly from the North of Nigeria and made great inroads in the South- East of the country, where we find a major Islamic leader in the person of honourable Kalabari man Alhaji Mujahid Dokubo-Asari with his own fiery admixture of fiery, national ideology. (Think: fire and petrol don’t mix without spontaneous, explosive combustion)
Marxism and Maoism are also highly developed ideologies that have certain features in common with Islamism. Hitler’s avowed ideology was National Socialism, was it not?
When a state becomes an object of worship, it’s called idolatry. We often see this happening in sports, especially football. We are usually united then, experiencing collective victory or ignominious defeat.
...For current archives, visit <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://groups.google.com/group
kenneth harrow
in the u.s. today, it is mostly tea-party members; in france, where i am now, it is the national front. and historically, ultranationalists are also associated with the fascist parties of the past, fascist movements, or with movements to which the term extreme is nowadays attached
ken
When a state becomes an object of worship, it�s called idolatry.
Segun Ogungbemi
Chomsky wrote the book in 2007 and Harrow contributed to this debate in 2013. I am yet to see the definition you said in the book.
Sent from my iPhone
Cornelius Hamelberg
Professor Segun Ogungbemi.
I hope that I'm reading you right.
I have read much of Chomsky over the years, am so familiar with him and all that Z-net that I can often anticipate eaxcatly what he's going to say. Whether it’s 2007 or 2013 or futuristically or prophetically speaking you leave me no choice but to mildly insist that there are many areas of overlap and complete agreement between Chomsky and Harrow on this one.
If in doubt, ask them.
Synchronicity
Segun Ogungbemi
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kenneth harrow
well, i do mostly walk the same walk as chomsky--no surprise, we are part of the left circles of the academy. at times when i see some of his criticisms of the u.s. or west they seem exaggerated, but the general thrust seems right to me.
i see the u.s. as a dominant world power, now, in the post cold-war period.
i see the figures of gini charts and medical and life expectancies and every other chart of societies with money and social programs, and the u.s. figures so low in one area after another--from childbirth mortalities to poverty to life expectancy to medical care, and the u.s. comes in close to the bottom of the wealthy, industrialized states--and we know why. the bottom half is treated badly; the top few percentages control too much, and have no social consciousness.
chomsky emphasizes u.s. imperial militarism; i protested against the vietnam war, and was willing to go to prison or canada if i had to. our points of departure are similar.
but i am sure you know his positions far better than i. (actually, he took a class in m.i.t. when i too took it, as an undergrad--but i never took his linguistic courses, so we never met). if i were to indicate a public intellectual whose columns strike me as very close to my own thinking, it would be paul krugman. also a former m.i.t. prof. now the economist whose values seem most convincing.
ken
Dear Cornelius,I simply addressed the issue based on the source you cited from Chomsky. I studied Chomsky as a Ph.D student at University of Texas at Dallas in the early 80s. I have some collections of his work in my library and each time I go to the US, I buy some of his books.�As I have said Chomsky cannot agree with Harrow because he wrote the work you cited before Harrow made his contribution recently. �Harrow can be said to be speaking in similar vein with Chomsky.�There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that both Chomsky and Harrow share a common view on nationalism as shown in American national policy.�So I am not in doubt. �I, however thank you for your advice.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Professor Segun Ogungbemi.�
�
I hope that I'm reading you right.
�
I have read much of Chomsky over the years, am so familiar with him and all that Z-net that I can often anticipate eaxcatly what he's going to say.�Whether it�s 2007 or�2013 or futuristically or prophetically speaking you�leave me no choice but to mildly insist that there are many areas of overlap and complete agreement between Chomsky and Harrow on this one.
�
�If in doubt, ask them.
�
Synchronicity
�
On Wednesday, 31 July 2013 10:59:09 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
May I say that it is very unlikely for Chomsky to agree with Harrow from what you said and I quote "In so many words�Professor Chomsky�agrees with Professor Harrow, especially in his �What we say goes!"
Chomsky wrote the book in 2007 and Harrow contributed to this debate in 2013. I am yet to see the definition you said in the book.
�What Chomsky talks about is secular nationalism and how the policy of the US of national interest which Reinhold Niebuhr had addressed before is more important than individual or social morality.�Secondly, �as rightly noted by Chomsky, Christianity was far more a violent religion at the time Huntington wrote on clash civilizations. Chomsky agrees with Huntington that Christianity was one of the most savage civilizations in human history. That was in the Medieval period. �The US is believed to be predominantly a Christian country whose foreign policy is as violent as Christianity of the Middle Ages, if not worse.�No one will dispute this and reading Chomsky and others will convince an honest researcher on this.�The question that lingers on then is: �Can we say that America is more violent than Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic secular nationalism?�It depends on where one has his bias. Perhaps, verifiable facts and figures will be our guide if we are to make an unbiased judgement.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Still thinking about Professor Harrow�s definitions of� the religion called nationalism�. In so many words Professor Chomsky agrees with Professor Harrow, especially in his �What we say goes!�
Chomsky now wants Europe to lend a helping hand.
�They say that patriotism is the last refuge
To which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail
Steal a lot and they make you king�
Ideology, much of which is found in Islam, is known as Islamism, and Islamism has on several occasions during the past century, been an essential component in Pan-Arab nationalism. It looks like where you find oil, there too you find Islam. Nowadays, moving south faster than the Sahara desert, �Islam has moved steadfastly from the North of Nigeria and made great inroads in the South- East of the country, where we find a major Islamic leader in the person of honourable Kalabari man Alhaji Mujahid Dokubo-Asari with his own fiery admixture of fiery, national ideology. (Think: fire and petrol don�t mix without spontaneous, explosive combustion)
Marxism and Maoism are also highly developed ideologies that have certain features in common with Islamism. Hitler�s avowed ideology was National Socialism, was it not?
When a state becomes an object of worship, it�s called idolatry. We often see this happening in sports, especially football. We are usually united then, experiencing collective victory or ignominious defeat.
-- kenneth w. harrow faculty excellence advocate distinguished professor of english michigan state university department of english 619 red cedar road room C-614 wells hall east lansing, mi 48824 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
Cornelius Hamelberg
Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
I should only hope that the word agree affords sufficient scope for all of us to read, to fully understand and to do just that. My son keeps on giving me Chomsky publications as birthday presents. On average I read about three to four books every week, going back to when I was about twelve years old. Don’t get me wrong, this is my fifth week on Cohen’s “Everyman’s Talmud”. Sometimes, I have to make up for lost time (at my own leisure of course and entirely for pleasure)
There are those who say that some of the Torah “agrees” with the Quran and vise-versa. I’ll let that go without digging further into any can of worms about pre-existent scripture or into the magnanimity of “before Abraham was, I am” or divine three-in-one mathematics etc.
Let me assure you, that within the realm of meaning, there’s nothing that exalted Hebrew Poetry cannot do
In the midsixties we "did" Chomsky's syntactic structures as part of our linguistics class, shortly before Professor Chomsky chucked it out....
Next on my agenda ( after “Light of the world” is re-reading of Truth, Love and a little malice by Khushwant Singh
I remain,
Sincerely yours,
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
I’ll never let you go.
Last take.
Re - "Chomsky cannot agree with Harrow because he wrote the work you cited before Harrow made his contribution recently." Well, I also cited other works and especially that one.
Chronology?
The Harrow I know has consistently made those positions clear in this forum, at least since I've been here and I'm sure, even earlier than Chomsky's “What we say goes!" in which Chomsky again passes judgement on US foreign policy actions going back to even Vietnam and Korea; but you can be the judge of the truths or untruths, the justice or injustice about which we may or may not agree either here or in eternity (smile) Like East & West. Like the Igbo and the Yoruba – till eternity. Or till death do us part.
About that, I should think that we are still in essential agreement and hopefully hold this truth in common too, “that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
And about this who said what and when business:
“Half of the people can be part right all of the time
Some of the people can be all right part of the time
But all of the people can’t be all right all of the time
I think Abraham Lincoln said that
“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours”
I said that “
Copyright © 1963, 1966 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1991, 1994 by Special Rider Music
Transformational Grammar? Chomsky said that before he threw it out the
window...
Yours eternally,
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
dear segun
well, i do mostly walk the same walk as chomsky--no surprise, we are part of the left circles of the academy. at times when i see some of his criticisms of the u.s. or west they seem exaggerated, but the general thrust seems right to me.
i see the u.s. as a dominant world power, now, in the post cold-war period.
i see the figures of gini charts and medical and life expectancies and every other chart of societies with money and social programs, and the u.s. figures so low in one area after another--from childbirth mortalities to poverty to life expectancy to medical care, and the u.s. comes in close to the bottom of the wealthy, industrialized states--and we know why. the bottom half is treated badly; the top few percentages control too much, and have no social consciousness.
chomsky emphasizes u.s. imperial militarism; i protested against the vietnam war, and was willing to go to prison or canada if i had to. our points of departure are similar.
but i am sure you know his positions far better than i. (actually, he took a class in m.i.t. when i too took it, as an undergrad--but i never took his linguistic courses, so we never met). if i were to indicate a public intellectual whose columns strike me as very close to my own thinking, it would be paul krugman. also a former m.i.t. prof. now the economist whose values seem most convincing.
ken
On 7/31/13 8:29 PM, Segun Ogungbemi wrote:
Dear Cornelius,I simply addressed the issue based on the source you cited from Chomsky. I studied Chomsky as a Ph.D student at University of Texas at Dallas in the early 80s. I have some collections of his work in my library and each time I go to the US, I buy some of his books.
As I have said Chomsky cannot agree with Harrow because he wrote the work you cited before Harrow made his contribution recently. Harrow can be said to be speaking in similar vein with Chomsky.
There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that both Chomsky and Harrow share a common view on nationalism as shown in American national policy.
So I am not in doubt. I, however thank you for your advice.Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Professor Segun Ogungbemi.
I hope that I'm reading you right.
I have read much of Chomsky over the years, am so familiar with him and all that Z-net that I can often anticipate eaxcatly what he's going to say. Whether it’s 2007 or 2013 or futuristically or prophetically speaking you leave me no choice but to mildly insist that there are many areas of overlap and complete agreement between Chomsky and Harrow on this one.
If in doubt, ask them.
On Wednesday, 31 July 2013 10:59:09 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
May I say that it is very unlikely for Chomsky to agree with Harrow from what you said and I quote "In so many words Professor Chomsky agrees with Professor Harrow, especially in his “What we say goes!"
Chomsky wrote the book in 2007 and Harrow contributed to this debate in 2013. I am yet to see the definition you said in the book.
What Chomsky talks about is secular nationalism and how the policy of the US of national interest which Reinhold Niebuhr had addressed before is more important than individual or social morality.
Secondly, as rightly noted by Chomsky, Christianity was far more a violent religion at the time Huntington wrote on clash civilizations. Chomsky agrees with Huntington that Christianity was one of the most savage civilizations in human history. That was in the Medieval period.
The US is believed to be predominantly a Christian country whose foreign policy is as violent as Christianity of the Middle Ages, if not worse.
No one will dispute this and reading Chomsky and others will convince an honest researcher on this.
The question that lingers on then is: Can we say that America is more violent than Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic secular nationalism?
It depends on where one has his bias. Perhaps, verifiable facts and figures will be our guide if we are to make an unbiased judgement.
Segun Ogungbemi.
Sent from my iPhone
Still thinking about Professor Harrow’s definitions of” the religion called nationalism”. In so many words Professor Chomsky agrees with Professor Harrow, especially in his “What we say goes!”
Chomsky now wants Europe to lend a helping hand.
“They say that patriotism is the last refuge
To which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail
Steal a lot and they make you king”
Ideology, much of which is found in Islam, is known as Islamism, and Islamism has on several occasions during the past century, been an essential component in Pan-Arab nationalism. It looks like where you find oil, there too you find Islam. Nowadays, moving south faster than the Sahara desert, Islam has moved steadfastly from the North of Nigeria and made great inroads in the South- East of the country, where we find a major Islamic leader in the person of honourable Kalabari man Alhaji Mujahid Dokubo-Asari with his own fiery admixture of fiery, national ideology. (Think: fire and petrol don’t mix without spontaneous, explosive combustion)
Marxism and Maoism are also highly developed ideologies that have certain features in common with Islamism. Hitler’s avowed ideology was National Socialism, was it not?
When a state becomes an object of worship, it’s called idolatry. We often see this happening in sports, especially football. We are usually united then, experiencing collective victory or ignominious defeat.
-- kenneth w. harrow faculty excellence advocate distinguished professor of english michigan state university department of english 619 red cedar road room C-614 wells hall east lansing, mi 48824 ph. 517 803 8839 har...@msu.edu
--
Cornelius Hamelberg
You say to me:
“It would have been clearer if you had stated that Ken had expressed those ideas before Chomsky's book”
Clearer:
In other words that I should have said that Chomsky agrees with Harrow? Please make up your mind whether you prefer Chomsky agreeing with Harrow to Harrow agreeing with Chomsky or even agreeing with Imam Khomeini (r.a.) the lion of Tehran, Iran, Jimmy Carter’s best friend, who said
“America is worse than Britain, Britain is worse than America and the Soviet Union is worse than both of them. Each one is worse than the other; each one is more abominable than the other. But today we are concerned with the malicious America. Let the American President know that in the eyes of the Iranian nation, he is the most repulsive member of the human race today for all the injustice he has imposed on our Muslim nation...”
Ever heard of the Chicago Seven?
Did we ever hear about one Mao Tse Tung ?
Paul Krugman? Well, he’s been all over the place, especially the New York Times, ever since he was awarded the Nobel Prize – about which I envy him not. But surprise, surprise! I am surprised down to my knees that you say, “I have not read Prof. Paul Krugman at all. Now that you (Ken) mentioned him, I will like to read him” When last did Ken men-tion Jeffrey Sachs? In my humble opinion, it’s about time that Ken recommended the Bible.
Ken? Well he is very much a contemporary American world word citizen and not to be individuated as such or divorced from that pool of ideas in reaction to that space called America , land of the free and champion of the free world. It‘s only that with the expansion of the empire and the scope of the ambition, just ask/consult the late Christopher Hitchens or the still living John Pilger, whether things have, as the Americans say, “gotten” a lot worse.
You think that was my first encounter with such ideas? Does he (Ken) have a monopoly on such ideas? Do you think so? Not even Sherman Adams who got me to not shake hands with Jerome Holland when I was introduced to him at the Grand Hotel here in Stockholm, had a monopoly on such ideas. Nor did purveyors such as Angela Davis or Eldridge Cleaver or Malcolm X, or James Baldwin or Amiri Baraka or I Am a Cowboy in the Boat of Ra or Gore Vidal, ever claim such a monopoly. Not to mention all the radicals I met at Legon, which is in Ghana where I got a real education and attended some conferences.
Well, I have been familiar with such ideas since around the time of the Cuba Crisis, the cold war and all those Novosti press publications regularly put out by the then Soviet (USSR) propaganda machine interspersed with some great jazz (music) broadcast from Radio Moscow – that I used to listen to when I was in Nigeria - in contrast with some of the usual formal uncle tomfoolery leading to nowhere put up on places like “straight talk Africa” specially manufactured for the Afri-kans!
Ever heard of the mojo Valentino Ojo versus the Oyibo JC?
I wonder how Roberto Mugabe himself is doing today awaiting the certainty.
Me too I remain
kenneth harrow
engaging with cornelius is like engaging with the history of african literature and the black movement since independence--and even before.
i can't think of anyone else with such an extraordinary range of experiences and knowledge of the magnificent history of the struggle in the early years, and the integrity of africa, yesterday and today. not to mention his range of knowledge concerning islam and judaism, and other religions.
i am a simpler guy with a straightforward path, and open c.v
but there is nothing i would like better than to have us come to know better how cornelius came to acquire this breadth of experience and scope of knowledge. i've met olympe bhely-quenum (he is a neighbor, practically, here in france), and he was there in the 50s when presence africaine was at its height; and we all know abiola irele and his academic origins, credentials, and accomplishments. we have our soyinka still; and are still nursing our wounds over the passing of achebe.
african minds of great importance to the history of african literature and culture and philosophy, and to its current traditions, we need to engage them as best we can.
so cornelius, please tell us how you came to your present state of knowledge, especially those with whom you studied in the early years, and what life took you to since then
ken
My dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,Yes, Chomsky is an interesting guy. So are you.You say to me:
�It would have been clearer if you had stated that Ken had expressed those ideas before Chomsky's book�
Clearer:
In other words that I should have said that Chomsky agrees with Harrow? Please make up your mind whether you prefer Chomsky agreeing with Harrow to Harrow agreeing with Chomsky or even agreeing with Imam Khomeini (r.a.) the lion of Tehran, Iran, Jimmy Carter�s best friend, who said
�America is worse than Britain, Britain is worse than America and the Soviet Union is worse than both of them. Each one is worse than the other; each one is more abominable than the other. But today we are concerned with the malicious America. Let the American President know that in the eyes of the Iranian nation, he is the most repulsive member of the human race today for all the injustice he has imposed on our Muslim nation...�
Ever heard of the Chicago Seven?
Did we ever hear about one Mao Tse Tung ?
�Paul Krugman? Well, he�s been all over the place, especially the New York Times, ever since he was awarded the Nobel Prize � about which I envy him not. But surprise, surprise! I am surprised down to my knees that you say, �I have not read Prof. Paul Krugman at all. �Now that you (Ken) mentioned him, I will like to read him� When last did Ken men-tion Jeffrey Sachs? �In my humble opinion, it�s about time that Ken recommended the Bible.
�Ken? Well he is very much a contemporary American world word citizen and not to be individuated as such or divorced from that pool of ideas in reaction to that space called America , land of the free and champion of the free world. It�s only that with the expansion of the empire and the scope of the ambition, just ask/consult the late Christopher Hitchens or the still living John Pilger, whether �things have, as the Americans say, �gotten� a lot worse.
You think that was my first encounter with such ideas? �Does he (Ken) have a monopoly on such ideas? Do you think so? Not even Sherman Adams who got me to not shake hands with Jerome Holland when I was introduced to him at the Grand Hotel here in Stockholm, had a monopoly on such ideas. Nor did purveyors such as Angela Davis or Eldridge Cleaver or Malcolm X, or James Baldwin� or Amiri Baraka or I Am a Cowboy in the Boat of Ra �or Gore Vidal, �ever claim such a monopoly. �Not to mention all the radicals I met at Legon, which is in Ghana where I got a real education and attended some conferences.
Well, I have been familiar with such ideas since around the time of the Cuba Crisis, the cold war and all those Novosti press publications regularly put out by the then Soviet (USSR) propaganda machine interspersed with some great jazz (music) broadcast from Radio Moscow � that I used to listen to when I was in Nigeria - in contrast with some of the usual formal uncle tomfoolery leading to nowhere put up on places like �straight talk Africa� specially manufactured for the Afri-kans!
Ever heard of the mojo Valentino Ojo versus the Oyibo JC?
I wonder how Roberto Mugabe himself is doing today awaiting the certainty.
Me too I remain
Yours eternally,
�
�
�
On Thursday, 1 August 2013 04:40:22 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Chronology?�Yes or lexicographical ordering if you will. �It would have been clearer if you had stated that Ken had expressed those ideas before Chomsky's book you cited. I am happy you have done so now. I have no problem with it again. Besides, �Ken has even cleared the air and made a step further for me to read.�You know Chomsky is an interesting guy.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
�
I�ll never let you go.
�
Last take.
�
Re - "Chomsky cannot agree with Harrow because he wrote the work you cited before Harrow made his contribution recently." Well, I also cited other works and especially that one.
�
Chronology?
�
The Harrow I know has consistently made those positions clear in this forum, at least since I've been here�and I'm sure, even earlier than Chomsky's �What we say goes!" in which Chomsky�again passes judgement on US foreign policy actions�going back to even Vietnam�and Korea; but you can be the judge of the truths or untruths, the justice or injustice about which we may or may not agree either here or in eternity (smile) Like East & West. Like the Igbo and the Yoruba � till eternity. Or till death do us part.
�
About that, I should think that we are still in essential agreement and hopefully hold this truth in common too, �that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.�
�
And about this who said what and when business:
�
�Half of the people can be part right all of the time
Some of the people can be all right part of the time
But all of the people can�t be all right all of the time
I think Abraham Lincoln said that
�I�ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours�
I said that �Copyright � 1963, 1966 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1991, 1994 by Special Rider Music
Transformational Grammar? Chomsky said that before he threw it out the window...Yours eternally,
�
On Wednesday, 31 July 2013 20:29:05 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
Dear Cornelius,I simply addressed the issue based on the source you cited from Chomsky. I studied Chomsky as a Ph.D student at University of Texas at Dallas in the early 80s. I have some collections of his work in my library and each time I go to the US, I buy some of his books.�As I have said Chomsky cannot agree with Harrow because he wrote the work you cited before Harrow made his contribution recently. �Harrow can be said to be speaking in similar vein with Chomsky.�There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that both Chomsky and Harrow share a common view on nationalism as shown in American national policy.�So I am not in doubt. �I, however thank you for your advice.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Professor Segun Ogungbemi.�
�
I hope that I'm reading you right.
�
I have read much of Chomsky over the years, am so familiar with him and all that Z-net that I can often anticipate eaxcatly what he's going to say.�Whether it�s 2007 or�2013 or futuristically or prophetically speaking you�leave me no choice but to mildly insist that there are many areas of overlap and complete agreement between Chomsky and Harrow on this one.
�
�If in doubt, ask them.
�
Synchronicity
�
On Wednesday, 31 July 2013 10:59:09 UTC+2, seguno2013 wrote:
May I say that it is very unlikely for Chomsky to agree with Harrow from what you said and I quote "In so many words�Professor Chomsky�agrees with Professor Harrow, especially in his �What we say goes!"
Chomsky wrote the book in 2007 and Harrow contributed to this debate in 2013. I am yet to see the definition you said in the book.
�What Chomsky talks about is secular nationalism and how the policy of the US of national interest which Reinhold Niebuhr had addressed before is more important than individual or social morality.�Secondly, �as rightly noted by Chomsky, Christianity was far more a violent religion at the time Huntington wrote on clash civilizations. Chomsky agrees with Huntington that Christianity was one of the most savage civilizations in human history. That was in the Medieval period. �The US is believed to be predominantly a Christian country whose foreign policy is as violent as Christianity of the Middle Ages, if not worse.�No one will dispute this and reading Chomsky and others will convince an honest researcher on this.�The question that lingers on then is: �Can we say that America is more violent than Islamic fundamentalism and Islamic secular nationalism?�It depends on where one has his bias. Perhaps, verifiable facts and figures will be our guide if we are to make an unbiased judgement.�
Segun Ogungbemi.�
Sent from my iPhone
Still thinking about Professor Harrow�s definitions of� the religion called nationalism�. In so many words Professor Chomsky agrees with Professor Harrow, especially in his �What we say goes!�
Chomsky now wants Europe to lend a helping hand.
�They say that patriotism is the last refuge
To which a scoundrel clings
Steal a little and they throw you in jail
Steal a lot and they make you king�
Ideology, much of which is found in Islam, is known as Islamism, and Islamism has on several occasions during the past century, been an essential component in Pan-Arab nationalism. It looks like where you find oil, there too you find Islam. Nowadays, moving south faster than the Sahara desert, �Islam has moved steadfastly from the North of Nigeria and made great inroads in the South- East of the country, where we find a major Islamic leader in the person of honourable Kalabari man Alhaji Mujahid Dokubo-Asari with his own fiery admixture of fiery, national ideology. (Think: fire and petrol don�t mix without spontaneous, explosive combustion)
Marxism and Maoism are also highly developed ideologies that have certain features in common with Islamism. Hitler�s avowed ideology was National Socialism, was it not?
When a state becomes an object of worship, it�s called idolatry. We often see this happening in sports, especially football. We are usually united then, experiencing collective victory or ignominious defeat.
Segun Ogungbemi
Sent from my iPhone
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dear Professor Segun Ogungbemi,
First of all, I would not be interested in anything that you would have to say about Iran , so I’ll just ignore that.
I am not deceived. It’s clear that either you don’t read your brother harrow right or you won’t acknowledge the tone of your friend Harrow’s words about me. Let me ask both of you this: If he had all “the know” in the world of what value would that be to me?
I am a Yoruba man pure and simple and this means that no uncle tom am I. I was born in Freetown, Sierra Leone and I don’t apologise for being who I am. We’ve been told that the Almighty made the Black man in His own image and likeness and this means that I do not allow your friend professor harrow to talk to me anyway he likes – as if he thinks that I’m one of his students in Senegal or Cameroons or one of his boys in his workplace at Michigan State University. Nor do I intend to take a whipping from anyone called Jim Crow.
My cv will be presented in the form of a slightly fictionalised autobiography which is in process – and in which no reference will be made to either you or him.
My interests include music and poetry. Sure, I can and do but do not intend to be on the road or in commercial production or to be inquisitioned by anyone who thinks he is the godfather or mother of this forum.
To professor harrow : Yes, I have an idea of what's happening in Sweden on an almost daily basis. What else I may know is ordinary for someone who reads the newspapers...
I hope that you are catching some sun and basking in some social sunshine, some fresh air and some glory out there in Nimes.
I just got some bad news - Dayan ha emet - from Brother Melvyn Price that our Brother Francis Riley, from the Gambia, has passed away, here in Stockholm. That’s the mood I’m in. Thinking of this Wilfred Owen line
Always it woke him, even in France
you are “a simpler guy with a straightforward path, and open c.v” and the right baggage of awesome good deeds, such as the multitudes you clothe and feed. May the Almighty bless you for your simplicity.
About all that you may claim now and posthumously as the kind of knowledge, that is not mine, how much should I be impressed? What is your trajectory? Do you now own a few tanks? Diamond Banks? Will you then look down on me from heaven when you progress from here to eternity? Should it matter to me?
Let me make it all as clear and concise as possible: to begin with
I’m not interested in trash african cinema from below.
if some anaemic looking, bottoms up, milky-white, effete tarzan sort of besserwisser presented me with the same menu of propositions that you just did, I’d tell him , no, you don’t know me at all : save your breath for later : to begin with I’m not at all interested in jew-daism top down or bottom up.
you have your “abiola irele and his academic origins, credentials, and accomplishments”
you have “ our soyinka still; and are still nursing (y)our wounds over the passing of achebe.”
so what?
I have my Beniko Popolipo, Dally Kimoko, Caen Madoka, Nene Tshaku, Roga-Roga, Diblo Dibala, Jimmy Dludlu and I’m closer, infinitely much closer to them than to my old teacher Abiola Irele or the funky, soulful professor of Africa cinema and african letters.
the last time I told you it was the Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wa salaam) and me, you started saying some ridiculous things about Hallaj, and since you can’t understand where you’ve never been before (“somewhere i have never travelled, gladly beyond any experience”) I let it be, since there’s more reason for tears than joy coming, just around the corner.
You say that “engaging with cornelius is like engaging with the history of african literature and the black movement since independence--and even before.” Where do you get that from? I’m not particularly interested in the history of african literature by which you make a livelihood – or in the history of any black african movement in Africa, since before independence. But I have had some practical connections and if you ask some of your c.i.a. guys I’m sure that they’ll oblige, if they haven’t already done so – in Africa and even here in Europe.
you ask rhetorically, “but there is nothing i would like better than to have us come to know better how cornelius came to acquire this breadth of experience and scope of knowledge”
i also ask you not sarcastically, not rhetorically, where did Moses (the prophet) get all his knowledge from? From Egypt, which is in Africa? From where? Same place as I get mine?
As to your last question which was “so cornelius, please tell us how you came to your present state of knowledge, especially those with whom you studied in the early years, and what life took you to since then”
Here is the clear Answer: I should hope that I’m better off than you – in all respects including the physical. For instance I’m in communion with the past ten generations of my ancestors. Where are you? Is it true that if famine crossed the waters that'll be the end of you ?
I choose life. I swear to God that I will soon take some decisive actions that will eradicate any doubt you may have in your mind or elsewhere.
I’m still happy and content and thank the Almighty to be here.
...