reflections on xma
19 views
Skip to first unread message
H O
Dec 21, 2012, 1:33:38 PM12/21/12
to usa googlegroups, NIgerianW...@yahoogroups.com
Some
Reflections on Christmas
Afis. A. Oladosu
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful
“The similitude
of Isa (Jesus Christ, upon him be peace) in the reckoning of Allah, is like
Adam (upon him be peace); He created him from the earth and He said unto it Be!
and it was” (Quran 3:59)
On Tuesday, the
25th of December, 2012, our compatriots who follow the teachings of
Prophet Isa (Jesus Christ upon him be peace and blessings of Almighty) will be
celebrating his birthday. Even though much controversy exists over his birth
and death, there is consensus among Christians on his mission while on earth;
whereas much ignorance exists outside Islam on his position and status in
Islamic annals and culture, Prophet Isa remains an adorable Prophet and one in
whom, in addition to other Prophets of Allah, Muslims must express their belief
and strive to emulate.
In
other words, “many Christians are unaware that the true spirit of reverence
which Muslims display towards Jesus and his mother Maryam (upon them be peace
and blessings of the Almighty) spring from the fountainhead of their faith as
prescribed in the Holy Quran. There are six articles of faith Islam. These
include belief in the unity of the Almighty as the lord, creator and cherisher
of the world, belief in His angels all of whom are immaterial beings, belief in
all the books He revealed to His prophets to guide humanity at all times and
climes and one which finds completion and conclusion in the Quran, belief in
His messengers all of whom were humans sent to guide humans away from servitude
to themselves to penitence and glory in their Creator, belief in the day of
resurrection and belief in destiny. The religion of Islam, therefore, seeks to preserve
the fundamental and eternal messages brought by all those Prophets of the
Almighty without exception. In fact, as far as Islam is concerned, one measure
of the treasure of the religion is its refusal to seek to exclude or demean the
personality or message of any of the Prophets of the Almighty. Islam is unique
in affirming that all the Prophets of the Almighty were men of excellence; that
they were all sent to show humanity how to rise above its infernal
predilections and reach for the ethereal, the seraphic, the spiritual and the beatific in
which lies its eternal success.
It
is ironic however for one to note that despite its universal approach to the
subject matter of prophethood, contemporary politics in Muslim-Christian relationships
has functioned in constructing Islam as anti-Christ and, by extension, anti-Semitic.
Ordinary non-Muslim reader of Islam who pays attention to existing sensationalism
and subterfuge which is often woven around he Cross and the Crescent all around
the world, would likely be disinclined and not be interested in pondering the
reason Jesus Christ is mentioned by name twenty-five times in the Quran. He
would not pause to ask the question: why is it that the Almighty says as
follows: Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! The Almighty gives thee
glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be al-Masih Isa (Christ Jesus),
the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the
company of) those nearest to Him (Q3:45); Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more
than) an apostle of the Almighty .. (Q4:171)
Thus a Muslim who scorns at or treat Prophet Isa (alyhi
salam) with disrespect has disbelieved a cardinal aspect of Islam. In fact, to
read and reread his life history, though short but eventful, is to lead a
successful life here on earth and partake of the eternal bliss in the
hereafter.
Aside from the
Quran, one book which constantly reminds me of Prophet Isa (alyhi salam) is
al-Mawardi’s Adab al-din wa Dunya (Ethic of Religion and the
World). I am always fascinated by the report that Prophet Isa alyhi salam was
once asked by his followers: why don’t you get married? Prophet Isa was
reported to have said: “We prefer the prosperity and the plenitude of the
hereafter”.
Brethren, I
sought to know whether Prophet Isa had a means of transportation. What type of ‘car’
was he using while on earth? what type of mansion did he live while he was busy
ministering to his fractious Jewish society? Did he own a private Jet? Brethren
what I found is his refusal to own even a camel. He said he did not want to be
a servant to a mule or a donkey. I thought that is highly useful and full of
wisdom. His abode consequently became the emptiness of the cathedral. His
wealth became the constant search for the blessing of the Almighty. Prophet Isa
(a.s) led a life he knew could end the next moment. He was wise enough to know
that all material acquisitions are destined for ruin.
But the irony of
human life lies in this seeming tendency in humans to refuse to learn lessons
which life constantly teaches. Or how else could life teach us lessons other than
for it show how us that wealth and authority here on earth are like dreams, or
like water we put in our palms or like mirages the thirsty see on the road? I
thought there is enough lessons for us to learn in the way the powerful seeks
an escape from his destiny on the land only to meet it in the skies. I thought it
is high time we knew that there is simply no escape from our destiny other
than self-immolation in the sanctuary of the Almighty.
Brethren, the
birth of Prophet Isa (a.s) was a sign of and from the Almighty. His prophetic
enterprise while on earth, like that of all Prophets of the Almighty who came
before him, was a touchstone of service, integrity, love and compassion. Thus his
life on earth will forever remain an important point of reference particularly
for those who truly identify with his path and desire eternal redemption.
Dear brethren let
us use this occasion to enjoin our Christian compatriots to ponder the eternal
messages of Prophet Isa (alayhi salam) more closely. Let me use this podium to
encourage them to reflect on his message of abstinence and continence and contemplate
his epistle of ascetism and humility. I must use this medium to encourage my compatriots
who congregate under the canopy of Prophet Isa (a.s) to critique the current missive
or “gospel” of prosperity and success which has become emblematic of the
evangelistic podia of today. In a conference organized by the Dominican
Institute, one of the questions I sought answers to is whether Muslims and
Christians have indeed not completely deviated from the noble teachings of the
Prophets of the Almighty they claim to follow? In other words, should Prophet
Isa (upon him be peace) appear today, which of these Churches would he identify
with? Were Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) to rise up in Madina today, would he not
take flight from these oddities in Muslims’ existential realities? To what
extent is the argument valid that material prosperity occupies the epicenter of
Jesus Christ’s ministry? Is it true that to be a true Muslim or Christian is to be rich
and affluent? Does it mean that to believe in the Almighty is to be insulated
against earthly tribulations and affliction?
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dec 21, 2012, 7:09:16 PM12/21/12
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
Afis,
Let's pray and hope that your timely reflections on Xmas reach the
Boko Haram Muslim terrorists who believe that Jesus is one of their
prophets and yet willy-nilly have been slaughtering Christians,
bombing their churches and setting fire to their houses – same thing
that they did to Igbos in the North in 1966 - one of the
contributing factors, verily the last straw that precipitated the
Biafra war – since if the Federal government cannot protect the lives
of a targeted section of its citizenry be they Christians or atheists
in secular Nigeria , then it is reasonable that in their own interest
such citizens take the steps necessary to protect themselves.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=53&gs_id=7&xhr=t&q=Igbos+massacred+in+the+North+-+before+the+Biafran+war&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Igbos+massacred+in+the+North+-+before+the+Biafran+war&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=85ae49b90e4673c6&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
It's not a joking matter – but here's a joke that explains but does
not undermine the urgency of the matter of taking the necessary steps
to protect life, limb and property, - including church property:
“During the Vietnam War, an officer was training a group of recruits
in the tactics of attack and defence. After discussing different types
of emergency situations in which they might find themselves, the
officer asked Private Caplin, “ Suppose you are alone in the jungle
and a Viet Cong guerilla jumps out of hiding with a huge knife in his
hand. What steps would you take?”
He replied, “ Huge steps, Sir – very huge steps!”
One of the probable reasons why some Muslims terrorise Christians in
many parts of the Muslim world is not only because of the Christians
lower status as conferred by Sharia Law, namely the status of Dhimmis
or Dhimmitude which does not confer equal rights on the Christian
Brotherhood and sisterhood:
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Dhimmis+%2C+Dhimmitude&oq=Dhimmis+%2C+Dhimmitude&gs_l=hp.12..0j0i30.4380.4380.0.6728.1.1.0.0.0.0.77.77.1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.MgwNFxxqDzs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=85ae49b90e4673c6&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
Another reason for this discrepancy in regarding all Christian members
of God's creation as second class spiritual pilgrims is that the Jesus
of Christianity is not the same as the Jesus of Islam. You should not
omit to say that Christianity is built on the thesis that Jesus was
crucified, he died was buried resurrected after three days and
ascended to his Father in Heaven after forty days and is presently
sitting on God's right hand etc. etc.
Islam says that Jesus is not the son of God – that God does not have
any children (Surat al-Ikhlas)
Islam says that Jesus did not die on the cross and thus Islam
dismantles the essence of Christianity - because no crucifixion means
no resurrection and in reducing Jesus' Christian status to that of a
Prophet – like the Prophet of Islam, Islam negates the core beliefs
of Christianity – in fact some would say that from that point of view,
Islam is anti-Christ!
Moreover, Islam rejects and condemns the ides of an Holy Trinity as
shirk and Islam of course is against worshipping any idols made of
flesh.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=5&gs_id=5m&xhr=t&q=Shirk&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Shirk&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=85ae49b90e4673c6&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
Islam prohibits the consumption of al-cohol and further looks down on
people who eat pork products. Naturally, Islam does not appreciate the
idea of Christian missionaries targeting Muslim youths in Islamic
strongholds with a view to converting them to such things ( permitting
the consumption of alcohol and pork, bowing down to Jesus on the
cross etc.)
In the light of the above, I don't know what you mean by “Prophet Isa
remains an adorable Prophet” Adorable?
Sure, Christianity and Islam have at least this one thing in common :
That the archangel Gabriel allegedly appeared to Mary the mother of
Jesus and of course Muslims believe that it was the same angel that
appeared to the Prophet of Islam and dictated words of Quran to
him...
Let us continue to pray for peace and love in Nigeria - and in the
Middle East too, and hope that the Boko Haram terrorists respond to
your Jesus Christmas message of “ Peace on Earth and goodwill to all
men!”
Sincerely
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
> (guardianfridaywors...@gmail.com)
Let's pray and hope that your timely reflections on Xmas reach the
Boko Haram Muslim terrorists who believe that Jesus is one of their
prophets and yet willy-nilly have been slaughtering Christians,
bombing their churches and setting fire to their houses – same thing
that they did to Igbos in the North in 1966 - one of the
contributing factors, verily the last straw that precipitated the
Biafra war – since if the Federal government cannot protect the lives
of a targeted section of its citizenry be they Christians or atheists
in secular Nigeria , then it is reasonable that in their own interest
such citizens take the steps necessary to protect themselves.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=53&gs_id=7&xhr=t&q=Igbos+massacred+in+the+North+-+before+the+Biafran+war&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Igbos+massacred+in+the+North+-+before+the+Biafran+war&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=85ae49b90e4673c6&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
It's not a joking matter – but here's a joke that explains but does
not undermine the urgency of the matter of taking the necessary steps
to protect life, limb and property, - including church property:
“During the Vietnam War, an officer was training a group of recruits
in the tactics of attack and defence. After discussing different types
of emergency situations in which they might find themselves, the
officer asked Private Caplin, “ Suppose you are alone in the jungle
and a Viet Cong guerilla jumps out of hiding with a huge knife in his
hand. What steps would you take?”
He replied, “ Huge steps, Sir – very huge steps!”
One of the probable reasons why some Muslims terrorise Christians in
many parts of the Muslim world is not only because of the Christians
lower status as conferred by Sharia Law, namely the status of Dhimmis
or Dhimmitude which does not confer equal rights on the Christian
Brotherhood and sisterhood:
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Dhimmis+%2C+Dhimmitude&oq=Dhimmis+%2C+Dhimmitude&gs_l=hp.12..0j0i30.4380.4380.0.6728.1.1.0.0.0.0.77.77.1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.MgwNFxxqDzs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=85ae49b90e4673c6&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
Another reason for this discrepancy in regarding all Christian members
of God's creation as second class spiritual pilgrims is that the Jesus
of Christianity is not the same as the Jesus of Islam. You should not
omit to say that Christianity is built on the thesis that Jesus was
crucified, he died was buried resurrected after three days and
ascended to his Father in Heaven after forty days and is presently
sitting on God's right hand etc. etc.
Islam says that Jesus is not the son of God – that God does not have
any children (Surat al-Ikhlas)
Islam says that Jesus did not die on the cross and thus Islam
dismantles the essence of Christianity - because no crucifixion means
no resurrection and in reducing Jesus' Christian status to that of a
Prophet – like the Prophet of Islam, Islam negates the core beliefs
of Christianity – in fact some would say that from that point of view,
Islam is anti-Christ!
Moreover, Islam rejects and condemns the ides of an Holy Trinity as
shirk and Islam of course is against worshipping any idols made of
flesh.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=5&gs_id=5m&xhr=t&q=Shirk&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Shirk&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=85ae49b90e4673c6&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
Islam prohibits the consumption of al-cohol and further looks down on
people who eat pork products. Naturally, Islam does not appreciate the
idea of Christian missionaries targeting Muslim youths in Islamic
strongholds with a view to converting them to such things ( permitting
the consumption of alcohol and pork, bowing down to Jesus on the
cross etc.)
In the light of the above, I don't know what you mean by “Prophet Isa
remains an adorable Prophet” Adorable?
Sure, Christianity and Islam have at least this one thing in common :
That the archangel Gabriel allegedly appeared to Mary the mother of
Jesus and of course Muslims believe that it was the same angel that
appeared to the Prophet of Islam and dictated words of Quran to
him...
Let us continue to pray for peace and love in Nigeria - and in the
Middle East too, and hope that the Boko Haram terrorists respond to
your Jesus Christmas message of “ Peace on Earth and goodwill to all
men!”
Sincerely
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dec 22, 2012, 6:02:03 PM12/22/12
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
It's Christmas time, celebrating the birth/ birthday of Jesus ,
therefore this little addendum Afis, in case you are not familiar
with this titbit of comparative religion.
About the difference in understanding between Islam and Christianity
over the birth of Jesus of Nazareth – not such a great difference
really:
This Catholic prayer, “The Angelus” explains the Christian side of the
story,, that “ The angel of the Lord appeared unto Mary and she
conceived by the Holy Ghost”:
http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/angelus.htm
Not radically different from The Quran and Allah saying “ kun” - “
be” and it is !
Once again, well there are so many jokes that would serve but I like
this one in particular as it shows how extensive is the power of the
Almighty and how some people regard the Almighty as Avinu Malkeinu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avinu_Malkeinu
“An American Jew and an Israeli met in Paris in the Cafe de la
Paix.The American asked, “ Do you know the United States?”
“ I've never been there ,” answered the Israeli.
“Have you ever heard of the Empire State Building?”
“ Of course!”
The American said proudly, “My Father built that! And have you heard
of the Brooklyn Bridge? My father built that too. And who do you think
built the White House in Washington? My father!”
This was too much for the Israeli , who said, “ And you I'm sure, have
heard of the Dead Sea?”
“But of course! What about it?”
“Well, let me tell you – my father killed it!”
On Dec 22, 1:09 am, Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> ...
>
> read more »
therefore this little addendum Afis, in case you are not familiar
with this titbit of comparative religion.
About the difference in understanding between Islam and Christianity
over the birth of Jesus of Nazareth – not such a great difference
really:
This Catholic prayer, “The Angelus” explains the Christian side of the
story,, that “ The angel of the Lord appeared unto Mary and she
conceived by the Holy Ghost”:
http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/angelus.htm
Not radically different from The Quran and Allah saying “ kun” - “
be” and it is !
Once again, well there are so many jokes that would serve but I like
this one in particular as it shows how extensive is the power of the
Almighty and how some people regard the Almighty as Avinu Malkeinu
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avinu_Malkeinu
“An American Jew and an Israeli met in Paris in the Cafe de la
Paix.The American asked, “ Do you know the United States?”
“ I've never been there ,” answered the Israeli.
“Have you ever heard of the Empire State Building?”
“ Of course!”
The American said proudly, “My Father built that! And have you heard
of the Brooklyn Bridge? My father built that too. And who do you think
built the White House in Washington? My father!”
This was too much for the Israeli , who said, “ And you I'm sure, have
heard of the Dead Sea?”
“But of course! What about it?”
“Well, let me tell you – my father killed it!”
On Dec 22, 1:09 am, Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelb...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Afis,
>
> Let's pray and hope that your timely reflections on Xmas reach the
> Boko Haram Muslim terrorists who believe that Jesus is one of their
> prophets and yet willy-nilly have been slaughtering Christians,
> bombing their churches and setting fire to their houses – same thing
> that they did to Igbos in the North in 1966 - one of the
> contributing factors, verily the last straw that precipitated the
> Biafra war – since if the Federal government cannot protect the lives
> of a targeted section of its citizenry be they Christians or atheists
> in secular Nigeria , then it is reasonable that in their own interest
> such citizens take the steps necessary to protect themselves.
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=53&g...
>
> Let's pray and hope that your timely reflections on Xmas reach the
> Boko Haram Muslim terrorists who believe that Jesus is one of their
> prophets and yet willy-nilly have been slaughtering Christians,
> bombing their churches and setting fire to their houses – same thing
> that they did to Igbos in the North in 1966 - one of the
> contributing factors, verily the last straw that precipitated the
> Biafra war – since if the Federal government cannot protect the lives
> of a targeted section of its citizenry be they Christians or atheists
> in secular Nigeria , then it is reasonable that in their own interest
> such citizens take the steps necessary to protect themselves.
>
>
> It's not a joking matter – but here's a joke that explains but does
> not undermine the urgency of the matter of taking the necessary steps
> to protect life, limb and property, - including church property:
>
> “During the Vietnam War, an officer was training a group of recruits
> in the tactics of attack and defence. After discussing different types
> of emergency situations in which they might find themselves, the
> officer asked Private Caplin, “ Suppose you are alone in the jungle
> and a Viet Cong guerilla jumps out of hiding with a huge knife in his
> hand. What steps would you take?”
>
> He replied, “ Huge steps, Sir – very huge steps!”
>
> One of the probable reasons why some Muslims terrorise Christians in
> many parts of the Muslim world is not only because of the Christians
> lower status as conferred by Sharia Law, namely the status of Dhimmis
> or Dhimmitude which does not confer equal rights on the Christian
> Brotherhood and sisterhood:http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Dhimmis+%2C+Dhi...
> It's not a joking matter – but here's a joke that explains but does
> not undermine the urgency of the matter of taking the necessary steps
> to protect life, limb and property, - including church property:
>
> “During the Vietnam War, an officer was training a group of recruits
> in the tactics of attack and defence. After discussing different types
> of emergency situations in which they might find themselves, the
> officer asked Private Caplin, “ Suppose you are alone in the jungle
> and a Viet Cong guerilla jumps out of hiding with a huge knife in his
> hand. What steps would you take?”
>
> He replied, “ Huge steps, Sir – very huge steps!”
>
> One of the probable reasons why some Muslims terrorise Christians in
> many parts of the Muslim world is not only because of the Christians
> lower status as conferred by Sharia Law, namely the status of Dhimmis
> or Dhimmitude which does not confer equal rights on the Christian
>
> Another reason for this discrepancy in regarding all Christian members
> of God's creation as second class spiritual pilgrims is that the Jesus
> of Christianity is not the same as the Jesus of Islam. You should not
> omit to say that Christianity is built on the thesis that Jesus was
> crucified, he died was buried resurrected after three days and
> ascended to his Father in Heaven after forty days and is presently
> sitting on God's right hand etc. etc.
>
> Islam says that Jesus is not the son of God – that God does not have
> any children (Surat al-Ikhlas)
> Islam says that Jesus did not die on the cross and thus Islam
> dismantles the essence of Christianity - because no crucifixion means
> no resurrection and in reducing Jesus' Christian status to that of a
> Prophet – like the Prophet of Islam, Islam negates the core beliefs
> of Christianity – in fact some would say that from that point of view,
> Islam is anti-Christ!
> Moreover, Islam rejects and condemns the ides of an Holy Trinity as
> shirk and Islam of course is against worshipping any idols made of
> flesh.
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=5&gs...
> Another reason for this discrepancy in regarding all Christian members
> of God's creation as second class spiritual pilgrims is that the Jesus
> of Christianity is not the same as the Jesus of Islam. You should not
> omit to say that Christianity is built on the thesis that Jesus was
> crucified, he died was buried resurrected after three days and
> ascended to his Father in Heaven after forty days and is presently
> sitting on God's right hand etc. etc.
>
> Islam says that Jesus is not the son of God – that God does not have
> any children (Surat al-Ikhlas)
> Islam says that Jesus did not die on the cross and thus Islam
> dismantles the essence of Christianity - because no crucifixion means
> no resurrection and in reducing Jesus' Christian status to that of a
> Prophet – like the Prophet of Islam, Islam negates the core beliefs
> of Christianity – in fact some would say that from that point of view,
> Islam is anti-Christ!
> Moreover, Islam rejects and condemns the ides of an Holy Trinity as
> shirk and Islam of course is against worshipping any idols made of
> flesh.
>
>
> read more »
H O
Dec 23, 2012, 2:37:47 AM12/23/12
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Dear Cornelius
thanks for the intervention and for the jocular pieces you inserted. However, the core of my essay is the pristine message brought by Prophet Isa- Jesus Christ (upon him be peace of the Almighty) not the 'church' or ministry developed by those who came after him particularly Apostle Paul. It is around the latter that the divergences between Islam and Christianity begins. I agree in toto that the catholic creed is nearer to what Islam on this matter.
Again, i know that you know that the reason for the oddities in the north of our country goes beyond the 'religiously' apparent. I equally know that you know that if indeed those elements killing people in Maiduguri and in other places actually had Islam in mind they should have spared innocent Muslims they have sent to the great beyond.
The idea of the dhimmis cannot be discussed in isolation of the notion of the state in Islam. There is no doubting the existence of huge materials on this issue but unfortunately, most of them usually celebrate isolated instances where as a result of specific circumstances which Muslims faced particularly in Madina Christians and Jews who took up adversarial positions against the nascent Muslim state had to suffer some repercussions. But again this was specific to that situation. It cannot be extrapolated or seized upon as a warrant for the detraction or elision of the non-Muslim's subjectivity or identity.
I pray for a just and therefore peaceful world for us all to live the full live...
From: Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:02 AM
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: reflections on xma
thanks for the intervention and for the jocular pieces you inserted. However, the core of my essay is the pristine message brought by Prophet Isa- Jesus Christ (upon him be peace of the Almighty) not the 'church' or ministry developed by those who came after him particularly Apostle Paul. It is around the latter that the divergences between Islam and Christianity begins. I agree in toto that the catholic creed is nearer to what Islam on this matter.
Again, i know that you know that the reason for the oddities in the north of our country goes beyond the 'religiously' apparent. I equally know that you know that if indeed those elements killing people in Maiduguri and in other places actually had Islam in mind they should have spared innocent Muslims they have sent to the great beyond.
The idea of the dhimmis cannot be discussed in isolation of the notion of the state in Islam. There is no doubting the existence of huge materials on this issue but unfortunately, most of them usually celebrate isolated instances where as a result of specific circumstances which Muslims faced particularly in Madina Christians and Jews who took up adversarial positions against the nascent Muslim state had to suffer some repercussions. But again this was specific to that situation. It cannot be extrapolated or seized upon as a warrant for the detraction or elision of the non-Muslim's subjectivity or identity.
I pray for a just and therefore peaceful world for us all to live the full live...
thanks for your perspective
Oladosu A. Afis Ph.D
From: Cornelius Hamelberg <cornelius...@gmail.com>
To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 12:02 AM
Subject: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: reflections on xma
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsub...@googlegroups.com
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "USA-Africa Dialogue Series" moderated by Toyin Falola, University of Texas at Austin.
For current archives, visit http://groups.google.com/group/USAAfricaDialogue
For previous archives, visit http://www.utexas.edu/conferences/africa/ads/index.html
To post to this group, send an email to USAAfric...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to USAAfricaDialogue-
unsub...@googlegroups.com
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dec 23, 2012, 9:12:34 AM12/23/12
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
Dear HO,
“the pristine message” indeed! Where is that message that you call the
“the Injeel” to be found, since you say it is not the Gospels, it is
not Paul or James the brother of Jesus. So , where is this “the
pristine message” of which you speak? Could you briefly tell us what
this message is - or is the message of “the Injeel” only to be
found in the Quran?
You know that the Gospel of Barnabas which Muslims like to quote is a
forgery? In case you are not aware of this I recommend that you read
“The Gospel of Barnabas“ by David Sox - it reads like a detective
story with overwhelmingly convincing evidence to show that it is a
forgery.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=37&gs_id=6&xhr=t&q=%E2%80%9CThe+Gospel+of+Barnabas%E2%80%9C+by+David+Sox&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=%E2%80%9CThe+Gospel+of+Barnabas%E2%80%9C+by+David+Sox&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=da51af1112b196c&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
You say that Jesus of Nazareth was a prophet of Islam, a Muslim
prophet.. Does Islam also regard him as Prophet to his own people the
Jewish people among whom he walked? Did he tell his people that he was
a prophet sent to them – and if so - if he was indeed a Prophet how
is it that he departed from the message of his predecessors in so
many very major ways – just as Muhammed prophet of Islam departs from
the Torah very drastically? These are valid question, because the age
of prophecy had come to a close with Malachi
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=8&gs_id=ic&xhr=t&q=the+tanakh&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=The+Tana&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=da51af1112b196c&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
There are many books that challenge the relevance of the Prophet of
Islam to the children of Israel since the proselytizers of Islam would
like the Jewish people to (God forbid) abandon the faith of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob, throw away the written and oral Torah and follow the
apostle of Allah!
Among the various books that counter missionary efforts by both
Christians is this one
http://www.google.co.uk/#q=Jacob+Neusner+:+a+rabbi+talks+with+Jesus&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=qwnXUMHvDsrm4QSUh4G4Dw&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=1ded99236e521f3a&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
More absurdities to be found in “Muhammed in the Bible” by David
Benjamin Keldani
In most of the ecumenical dialogues between Islam and Christianity, so
far it is Christianity that winds up making all kinds of concessions
to Islamic tenets and understandings, especially because Islam says
that Jesus is the Messiah and because, as you say, you “agree in toto
that the catholic creed is nearer to what Islam (says) on this
matter.”
If you could emphasise the commonality that Islam shares with
Christianity and succeed in delivering the message to Boko Haram, then
churches in Nigeria could be spared more Boko Haram bombs this merry
Christmas and God willing we could all could enjoy a happy new year in
Nigeria.
I am totally in agreement with all that you say in your second and
third paragraphs.
Wa salaam,
Cornelius
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
On Dec 23, 8:37 am, H O <afi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Cornelius
> thanks for the intervention and for the jocular pieces you inserted. However, the core of my essay is the pristine message brought by Prophet Isa- Jesus Christ (upon him be peace of the Almighty) not the 'church' or ministry developed by those who came after him particularly Apostle Paul. It is around the latter that the divergences between Islam and Christianity begins. I agree in toto that the catholic creed is nearer to what Islam on this matter.
> Again, i know that you know that the reason for the oddities in the north of our country goes beyond the 'religiously' apparent. I equally know that you know that if indeed those elements killing people in Maiduguri and in other places actually had Islam in mind they should have spared innocent Muslims they have sent to the great beyond.
> The idea of the dhimmis cannot be discussed in isolation of the notion of the state in Islam. There is no doubting the existence of huge materials on this issue but unfortunately, most of them usually celebrate isolated instances where as a result of specific circumstances which Muslims faced particularly in Madina Christians and Jews who took up adversarial positions against the nascent Muslim state had to suffer some repercussions. But again this was specific to that situation. It cannot be extrapolated or seized upon as a warrant for the detraction or elision of the non-Muslim's subjectivity or identity.
> I pray for a just and therefore peaceful world for us all to live the full live...
>
> thanks for your perspective
>
>
> Oladosu A. Afis Ph.D
>
> ________________________________
> From: Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelb...@gmail.com>
> ...
>
> read more »
“the pristine message” indeed! Where is that message that you call the
“the Injeel” to be found, since you say it is not the Gospels, it is
not Paul or James the brother of Jesus. So , where is this “the
pristine message” of which you speak? Could you briefly tell us what
this message is - or is the message of “the Injeel” only to be
found in the Quran?
You know that the Gospel of Barnabas which Muslims like to quote is a
forgery? In case you are not aware of this I recommend that you read
“The Gospel of Barnabas“ by David Sox - it reads like a detective
story with overwhelmingly convincing evidence to show that it is a
forgery.
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=37&gs_id=6&xhr=t&q=%E2%80%9CThe+Gospel+of+Barnabas%E2%80%9C+by+David+Sox&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=%E2%80%9CThe+Gospel+of+Barnabas%E2%80%9C+by+David+Sox&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=da51af1112b196c&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
You say that Jesus of Nazareth was a prophet of Islam, a Muslim
prophet.. Does Islam also regard him as Prophet to his own people the
Jewish people among whom he walked? Did he tell his people that he was
a prophet sent to them – and if so - if he was indeed a Prophet how
is it that he departed from the message of his predecessors in so
many very major ways – just as Muhammed prophet of Islam departs from
the Torah very drastically? These are valid question, because the age
of prophecy had come to a close with Malachi
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=8&gs_id=ic&xhr=t&q=the+tanakh&pf=p&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&oq=The+Tana&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=da51af1112b196c&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
There are many books that challenge the relevance of the Prophet of
Islam to the children of Israel since the proselytizers of Islam would
like the Jewish people to (God forbid) abandon the faith of Abraham,
Isaac and Jacob, throw away the written and oral Torah and follow the
apostle of Allah!
Among the various books that counter missionary efforts by both
Christians is this one
http://www.google.co.uk/#q=Jacob+Neusner+:+a+rabbi+talks+with+Jesus&hl=en&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ei=qwnXUMHvDsrm4QSUh4G4Dw&ved=0CAwQ_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=1ded99236e521f3a&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
More absurdities to be found in “Muhammed in the Bible” by David
Benjamin Keldani
In most of the ecumenical dialogues between Islam and Christianity, so
far it is Christianity that winds up making all kinds of concessions
to Islamic tenets and understandings, especially because Islam says
that Jesus is the Messiah and because, as you say, you “agree in toto
that the catholic creed is nearer to what Islam (says) on this
matter.”
If you could emphasise the commonality that Islam shares with
Christianity and succeed in delivering the message to Boko Haram, then
churches in Nigeria could be spared more Boko Haram bombs this merry
Christmas and God willing we could all could enjoy a happy new year in
Nigeria.
I am totally in agreement with all that you say in your second and
third paragraphs.
Wa salaam,
Cornelius
http://www.thelocal.se/blogs/corneliushamelberg/
On Dec 23, 8:37 am, H O <afi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Dear Cornelius
> thanks for the intervention and for the jocular pieces you inserted. However, the core of my essay is the pristine message brought by Prophet Isa- Jesus Christ (upon him be peace of the Almighty) not the 'church' or ministry developed by those who came after him particularly Apostle Paul. It is around the latter that the divergences between Islam and Christianity begins. I agree in toto that the catholic creed is nearer to what Islam on this matter.
> Again, i know that you know that the reason for the oddities in the north of our country goes beyond the 'religiously' apparent. I equally know that you know that if indeed those elements killing people in Maiduguri and in other places actually had Islam in mind they should have spared innocent Muslims they have sent to the great beyond.
> The idea of the dhimmis cannot be discussed in isolation of the notion of the state in Islam. There is no doubting the existence of huge materials on this issue but unfortunately, most of them usually celebrate isolated instances where as a result of specific circumstances which Muslims faced particularly in Madina Christians and Jews who took up adversarial positions against the nascent Muslim state had to suffer some repercussions. But again this was specific to that situation. It cannot be extrapolated or seized upon as a warrant for the detraction or elision of the non-Muslim's subjectivity or identity.
> I pray for a just and therefore peaceful world for us all to live the full live...
>
> thanks for your perspective
>
>
> Oladosu A. Afis Ph.D
>
> ________________________________
>
> read more »
H O
Dec 24, 2012, 11:59:33 AM12/24/12
to usaafric...@googlegroups.com
Dear CH
one thing i learnt and acknowledge about all religions is this toga of totalitarianism they often 'wear' and this aura of perfection that usually surrounds their histories. For example, Islam teaches that the Quran is the last testament- that it came as a seal of all previously revealed books, that scriptures revealed to prophets before Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) have all suffered some corruptions and that the emergence of the latter does not invalidate the previously revealed messages the kernel of which is the oneness of the Almighty. I know about and have read the Gospel of Barnabas Before now. As far as Islam is concerned, the Injeel, the authentic message given to Prophet Isa (alayhi salam) is not the current Bible in circulation today. One other reason Muslims approach the Bible with circumspection is the lack of what i would call the divine force...let me buttress this with an instance from the Quran:
The jews once went to Prophet Muhammad to ask him about the locus and status of the soul in the human body; they wanted to test the veracity of his claims. They also wanted to know about the day of ressurection...and many others...Prophet Muhammad response was that he had no immediate response until divine reaction came. In the Quran, the response is introduced as follows: "They ask thee about the soul/spirit...they ask thee about the last hour..." such internal evidence which establishes the humanity of the Prophet in relation to the divinity of the ALmighty abound in the Quran...we often refer to this as one of the internal evidences for the divine origin of the Quran..among many others...
Now with reference to Prophet Isa, we believe that he was sent to the 12 houses of Israel. I guess the Bible confirms this too. But we do not believe he departed from the path which prophets before he trodded.--his message to the Jews consisted of affirming the unity of the Almighty and the necessity for the Jews to shun their iniquitous ways...when we look at the messages brought Prophet Muhammad, it contains virtually the same things though now more elaborately. In other words, while Jesus never established a state, Muhammad did; while Jesus never married, Muhammad did ...and so on...this explains why the message of Muhammad had to be more holistic...come to think, i was told by my colleagues that Jesus spent not more than 30 years on earth...Muhammad spent 63 years...the latter's message had to be more panoramic so to say..
in closing, what appears more important, and this is Quranic, is that let our Christian compatriots hold on to Jesus canopy as strongly as possible, let the Muslims equally do on to Muhamma's; in this way this society would be better than what it is now...
once again thanks for your illuminating perspectives..
one thing i learnt and acknowledge about all religions is this toga of totalitarianism they often 'wear' and this aura of perfection that usually surrounds their histories. For example, Islam teaches that the Quran is the last testament- that it came as a seal of all previously revealed books, that scriptures revealed to prophets before Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) have all suffered some corruptions and that the emergence of the latter does not invalidate the previously revealed messages the kernel of which is the oneness of the Almighty. I know about and have read the Gospel of Barnabas Before now. As far as Islam is concerned, the Injeel, the authentic message given to Prophet Isa (alayhi salam) is not the current Bible in circulation today. One other reason Muslims approach the Bible with circumspection is the lack of what i would call the divine force...let me buttress this with an instance from the Quran:
The jews once went to Prophet Muhammad to ask him about the locus and status of the soul in the human body; they wanted to test the veracity of his claims. They also wanted to know about the day of ressurection...and many others...Prophet Muhammad response was that he had no immediate response until divine reaction came. In the Quran, the response is introduced as follows: "They ask thee about the soul/spirit...they ask thee about the last hour..." such internal evidence which establishes the humanity of the Prophet in relation to the divinity of the ALmighty abound in the Quran...we often refer to this as one of the internal evidences for the divine origin of the Quran..among many others...
Now with reference to Prophet Isa, we believe that he was sent to the 12 houses of Israel. I guess the Bible confirms this too. But we do not believe he departed from the path which prophets before he trodded.--his message to the Jews consisted of affirming the unity of the Almighty and the necessity for the Jews to shun their iniquitous ways...when we look at the messages brought Prophet Muhammad, it contains virtually the same things though now more elaborately. In other words, while Jesus never established a state, Muhammad did; while Jesus never married, Muhammad did ...and so on...this explains why the message of Muhammad had to be more holistic...come to think, i was told by my colleagues that Jesus spent not more than 30 years on earth...Muhammad spent 63 years...the latter's message had to be more panoramic so to say..
in closing, what appears more important, and this is Quranic, is that let our Christian compatriots hold on to Jesus canopy as strongly as possible, let the Muslims equally do on to Muhamma's; in this way this society would be better than what it is now...
once again thanks for your illuminating perspectives..
Oladosu A. Afis Ph.D
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: reflections on xma
Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: reflections on xma
Cornelius Hamelberg
Dec 24, 2012, 2:02:45 PM12/24/12
to USA Africa Dialogue Series
Dear HO,
That's what the Prophet of Islam says about himself, not only that he
is a true prophet but that he is also the last prophet. He is
certainly a prophet of the great religion of Islam. - no one can deny
that.
During the last American presidential elections, every time I thought
of the founder of Romney's religion the Mormon's Prophet Joseph Smith,
I was expecting Mwalimu Bangura to jump up from behind the curtain
waving a flag made of the moon and crescent and shouting at his man,
“Muhammad is the last prophet and there can be no prophet after him!”,
but he didn't. I'm not saying that “silence means consent”and that's
not why I was keeping quiet either.
As Jesus himself is reported to have said. “ Many false prophets will
come”
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Jesus+:+Many+false+prophets+will+come&oq=Jesus+:+Many+false+prophets+will+come&gs_l=hp.12..0i30.1953.24267.0.27406.41.40.0.1.1.0.83.2148.40.40.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.ih3jnin-EG4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=9beefaf585229cb&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
As for the “toga of totalitarianism” that you allude to, the
proselytizing Islam and Christianity are the two world religions which
would like the Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and everyone else to drop
everything and follow them- in the case of Islam – to follow “ the
last prophet” and the Christians of course believe that we should all
repose our faith in “the blood of Jesus.” as the only way to
salvation.
Judaism says that if mankind drops idolatry, following the Noahide
code is sufficient for “salvation”
I thought that this should interest you:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
And as to the other thing that you mention the “aura of perfection
that usually surrounds their histories” Bishop Krister Stendahl has
laid out three rules. He says that,
(1) When trying to understand another religion, you should ask the
adherents of that religion and not its enemies.
(2) Don't compare your best to their worst.
(3) Leave room for “holy envy.”
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=Bishop+Krister+Stendahl+-+%22holy+envy%22&oq=Bishop+Krister+Stendahl+-+%22holy+envy%22&gs_l=hp.3...3102.11235.0.11735.15.15.0.0.0.0.74.688.15.15.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.2j1.ruItOHt5Qf4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=9beefaf585229cb&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
I've been checking the news coming out of Nigeria. You can continue to
keep your fingers crossed - it looks like Boko Haram has not attacked
any of Prophet Jesus/Isa's Church people up till now. Hopefully they
will be spared being bombed or slaughtered this Christmas.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Boko+Haram&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=Boko+Haram&hl=en&client=firefox-a&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ei=9KXYUID0HJD14QT9-IHAAw&ved=0CA0Q_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=41c542ea23252e99&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
Since in the past you've expressed some appreciation for the
“jocular”, I'll leave you with my favourite one, I guess you've seen
it before:
“ A member of one synagogue said to a member of another synagogue,
“Our wonderful rabbi talks daily with the Almighty!”
“How do you know?” asked the other man.
“He told me!”
“He might have been lying.”
“Nonsense- the Almighty wouldn't talk daily with a liar, would He?”
Wa salaam
> ...
>
> read more »
That's what the Prophet of Islam says about himself, not only that he
is a true prophet but that he is also the last prophet. He is
certainly a prophet of the great religion of Islam. - no one can deny
that.
During the last American presidential elections, every time I thought
of the founder of Romney's religion the Mormon's Prophet Joseph Smith,
I was expecting Mwalimu Bangura to jump up from behind the curtain
waving a flag made of the moon and crescent and shouting at his man,
“Muhammad is the last prophet and there can be no prophet after him!”,
but he didn't. I'm not saying that “silence means consent”and that's
not why I was keeping quiet either.
As Jesus himself is reported to have said. “ Many false prophets will
come”
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&q=Jesus+:+Many+false+prophets+will+come&oq=Jesus+:+Many+false+prophets+will+come&gs_l=hp.12..0i30.1953.24267.0.27406.41.40.0.1.1.0.83.2148.40.40.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.ih3jnin-EG4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=9beefaf585229cb&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
As for the “toga of totalitarianism” that you allude to, the
proselytizing Islam and Christianity are the two world religions which
would like the Hindus, Buddhists, Jews and everyone else to drop
everything and follow them- in the case of Islam – to follow “ the
last prophet” and the Christians of course believe that we should all
repose our faith in “the blood of Jesus.” as the only way to
salvation.
Judaism says that if mankind drops idolatry, following the Noahide
code is sufficient for “salvation”
I thought that this should interest you:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788
And as to the other thing that you mention the “aura of perfection
that usually surrounds their histories” Bishop Krister Stendahl has
laid out three rules. He says that,
(1) When trying to understand another religion, you should ask the
adherents of that religion and not its enemies.
(2) Don't compare your best to their worst.
(3) Leave room for “holy envy.”
http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&tbo=d&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=Bishop+Krister+Stendahl+-+%22holy+envy%22&oq=Bishop+Krister+Stendahl+-+%22holy+envy%22&gs_l=hp.3...3102.11235.0.11735.15.15.0.0.0.0.74.688.15.15.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.2j1.ruItOHt5Qf4&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=9beefaf585229cb&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
I've been checking the news coming out of Nigeria. You can continue to
keep your fingers crossed - it looks like Boko Haram has not attacked
any of Prophet Jesus/Isa's Church people up till now. Hopefully they
will be spared being bombed or slaughtered this Christmas.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Boko+Haram&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a#q=Boko+Haram&hl=en&client=firefox-a&tbo=d&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ei=9KXYUID0HJD14QT9-IHAAw&ved=0CA0Q_AUoAA&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.bGE&fp=41c542ea23252e99&bpcl=40096503&biw=1024&bih=614
Since in the past you've expressed some appreciation for the
“jocular”, I'll leave you with my favourite one, I guess you've seen
it before:
“ A member of one synagogue said to a member of another synagogue,
“Our wonderful rabbi talks daily with the Almighty!”
“How do you know?” asked the other man.
“He told me!”
“He might have been lying.”
“Nonsense- the Almighty wouldn't talk daily with a liar, would He?”
Wa salaam
> From: Cornelius Hamelberg <corneliushamelb...@gmail.com>
> To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
> To: USA Africa Dialogue Series <usaafric...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 3:12 PM
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: reflections on xma
>
> Dear HO,
>
> “the pristine message” indeed! Where is that message that you call the
> “the Injeel” to be found, since you say it is not the Gospels, it is
> not Paul or James the brother of Jesus. So , where is this “the
> pristine message” of which you speak? Could you briefly tell us what
> this message is - or is the message of “the Injeel” only to be
> found in the Quran?
>
> You know that the Gospel of Barnabas which Muslims like to quote is a
> forgery? In case you are not aware of this I recommend that you read
> “The Gospel of Barnabas“ by David Sox - it reads like a detective
> story with overwhelmingly convincing evidence to show that it is a
> forgery.
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=37&g...
> Subject: Re: USA Africa Dialogue Series - Re: reflections on xma
>
> Dear HO,
>
> “the pristine message” indeed! Where is that message that you call the
> “the Injeel” to be found, since you say it is not the Gospels, it is
> not Paul or James the brother of Jesus. So , where is this “the
> pristine message” of which you speak? Could you briefly tell us what
> this message is - or is the message of “the Injeel” only to be
> found in the Quran?
>
> You know that the Gospel of Barnabas which Muslims like to quote is a
> forgery? In case you are not aware of this I recommend that you read
> “The Gospel of Barnabas“ by David Sox - it reads like a detective
> story with overwhelmingly convincing evidence to show that it is a
> forgery.
>
>
> You say that Jesus of Nazareth was a prophet of Islam, a Muslim
> prophet.. Does Islam also regard him as Prophet to his own people the
> Jewish people among whom he walked? Did he tell his people that he was
> a prophet sent to them – and if so - if he was indeed a Prophet how
> is it that he departed from the message of his predecessors in so
> many very major ways – just as Muhammed prophet of Islam departs from
> the Torah very drastically? These are valid question, because the age
> of prophecy had come to a close with Malachi
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=1&gs_ri=hp&cp=8&gs...
> You say that Jesus of Nazareth was a prophet of Islam, a Muslim
> prophet.. Does Islam also regard him as Prophet to his own people the
> Jewish people among whom he walked? Did he tell his people that he was
> a prophet sent to them – and if so - if he was indeed a Prophet how
> is it that he departed from the message of his predecessors in so
> many very major ways – just as Muhammed prophet of Islam departs from
> the Torah very drastically? These are valid question, because the age
> of prophecy had come to a close with Malachi
>
>
> There are many books that challenge the relevance of the Prophet of
> Islam to the children of Israel since the proselytizers of Islam would
> like the Jewish people to (God forbid) abandon the faith of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob, throw away the written and oral Torah and follow the
> apostle of Allah!
>
> Among the various books that counter missionary efforts by both
> Christians is this one
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/#q=Jacob+Neusner+:+a+rabbi+talks+with+Jesus&h...
> There are many books that challenge the relevance of the Prophet of
> Islam to the children of Israel since the proselytizers of Islam would
> like the Jewish people to (God forbid) abandon the faith of Abraham,
> Isaac and Jacob, throw away the written and oral Torah and follow the
> apostle of Allah!
>
> Among the various books that counter missionary efforts by both
> Christians is this one
>
>
> read more »
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages