marine corps Sacred Cow
JRVining
(LETTER I WROTE TO THE SECDEF MONTHS AGO)
8 May 1997
Dear Secretary Cohen,
I'm appalled that its reported that the marine corps is being cut by only 2,000
personnel when it frankly hasn't done "squat" for the last two decades while
the United States Army has done the lion's share of the building, peacekeeping,
fighting and the dying. I don't know who is advising you to grant a "sacred
cow" status for this organization, but 174,000 marines that gets you less than
3 tiny evacuation forces and less than 2-1/2 divisions for $9+ billion dollars
is a monumental waste of money. Don't let marine corps apologists TRY to divert
you from what's really important by statistical "tooth-to-tail" ratios; what's
really important is that both marine corps "tooth" and "tail" are really doing
next to nothing for the manpower and money being spent on them. That's the
brutal truth, and its time we stop believing what we want to believe about the
Corps and develop the moral courage to admit "the emperor has no clothes". The
USMC is a secretive society that closes ranks to perpetuate myths about itself
and its capabilities that the unitiated can easily fall prey to. Compare their
"gooblygook" and high-sounding talk to what the other services are actually
doing. The marine corps is no bargain if its doing little or nothing
significant in the real world. It doesn't take 174,000 men to "show the flag"
around the world or land a few troops on some beaches with tiny allied nation
marine corps.
Low-grade infantry: Note marines on yet another minor landing exercise/Public
Relations-cum photo-opportunity bunched together in slipshod camouflage making
it easier for an enemy to detect and wipe them out with a single burst of small
arms fire...
Its about time that this idle, always-waiting-for-
a-WWII-rehash-that'll-never-happen outfit be trimmed by 10,000-20,000 slots; we
do not need the myriad marine Commands, Training Squadrons, Silent Drill Teams,
Combat Development bureaucracies, logistical bases, security detachments, 2
recruit training depots, dozens of General and staff officers drawing per diem
at headquarters, marine corps an entire second naval air force with fighters,
attack jets, transport planes, helicopters and all of the pork-barrel
subsidiary organizations created by careerist marines for institutional
political clout/expansion. That the mc has become too big and cannot handle its
empire is proven by its horrendous fatal accident rates: the highest of all the
services! The smallest service, highest fatalities due to peace-time screw-ups?
That dog don't hunt.
KITSCH MONUMENT: low-brow, pretentious art
Silly displays like above are a waste of time, resources and do not win
wars....When NatArt Director, J.Carter Brown called it "Kitsch" trying to say
it was popular, the bronze statue worshipers led by Rep. Gerald Solomon R-NY
whined for a resignation! WAA! Do not bow to the mc thought-police or worship
the mc!
Keep fighting units, merge them into the U.S. Army so it can have both an
AIRBORNE and amphibious Corps for seamless AIRLAND battle with its "bugs worked
out" NOW before war starts, just like D-Day, June 6, 1944 where the U.S.
ARMY----not the marines--- led the largest AIRBORNE-amphibious invasion in
history to win the war in Europe against Hitler's Germany. The marines have
never fought a first-rate enemy in war; the Japanese in the Pacific were
primarily foot infantry, the Germans in WWI exhausted by the time we got there.
Only the U.S. Army has fought and defeated a first-rate combined arms (tanks,
armored personnel carriers, artillery, engineers etc.) power---Nazi Germany in
1942-45--we lose sight of this fact amidst marine revisionism and bluster.
... instead of a few WHEELED LAV armored cars that cannot roll over
rubble/broken glass depicted at the top or monstrously huge amphibious armored
vehicles (AAVs) with a quarter of a rifle company packed like sardines inside
subject to fiery death...
We are the only nation silly enough to make a forcible entry means that
actually requires a division's worth of troops into an entire seperate service
bureacracy with 174,000 men yet can't deliver us a Divisional-sized landing
force in a timely manner (it needs to be there in hours, not days, weeks,
months--war will be over before then)!!!! The bigger the mc grows, the less we
get. We can't afford a so-called sea based second land army that is actually
land-locked that parcels itself out in irrelevent penny packets that perform
minor, low-risk, showy, "pet" missions while the U.S. Army shoulders the
nation's land peacekeeping and war fighting burdens.
If 40,000 slots needs to be cut, each service should take a 10,000 man cut to
include the do-little marine corps. If the usmc wants to be treated like a
seperate service it needs to make the sacrifices of a seperate service or else
be absorbed into the U.S. Navy or Army completely which would cut billions of
dollars in overhead costs arising from bureacracies existing just for the sake
of the organization not war-fighting. Don't be taken in by spit-shines and
fancy uniforms worn by braggadocio espousing simpletons; who is actually doing
the work defending freedom around the world? Who are actually in these Third
World Country "hell holes" patching up villagers? Who's patrolling the mean
streets of Haiti and Bosnia? Who's doing the real world missions right now, not
sitting on a ship or shooting blanks at each other or polishing barracks floors
in the U.S.?
The U.S. Army is doing all these good deeds, not the mc.
Don't blame headquarters marine corps; they don't want to cut back on their
bureacracy for a force structure able to do anything but low-risk media
intensive evacuations and beach landings; almost a quarter of a million marines
yet unable to take a beachhead if anything more than an enemy Brigade is
defending it. Less than 3 foot-mobile, low-skill level quasi-light infantry
divisions out of 174,000 men at a cost of BILLIONS of dollars.
The marine corps has become an ego club for co-dependants not a true amphibious
warfare fighting organization. When was the last time a real amphibious
operation has been undertaken in time of war? Korea. Over 48 years ago, almost
5 decades, half a century. By splitting up what few ships we have to the "four
winds", we will not be able to mass enough combat power in time to effect any
kind of significant amphibious movement onto an enemy's flanks in a world that
moves by the speed of the air. Will it take us losing South Korea before we
realize we've squandered billions on a headquarters marine corps-led "black
hole"; an organization that has let true amphibious warfare disintegrate in
favor of ego-gratifying evacuations and beach landings? We had the 1975 debacle
on Koh Tang island where the marines led helicopters into a fiery ambush that
left over 30 Americans dead. We had unqualified for special operations marines
insist on flying Delta Force into Desert One that resulted in another fiery
disaster leaving 8 dead. Three years later marines were packed like sardines
into a headquarters building that was blown up by a truck bomb, 265+ more body
bags. After that it was decided to leave marines offshore where they would be
safe from the enemy and themselves and where they have stayed ever since. An
organization that constantly brags about its alleged superiority to all others
at the same time hides its serious errors and shuns constructive criticism, and
destroys the careers of those who try to right these wrongs is doomed to
disaster.
I think its high time that those that are doing the work get the credit and the
budgetary support; cut 10-20,000 land-locked leatherneck bureaucrats talking
"trash' here in hometown U.S.A. not a couple of U.S. Army divisions out there
in harm's way in sniper and artillery range securing the peace. Look at the
thousands of marines sitting here at Camp Pendleton, Camp Lejeune, 29 Palms,
Quantico, Little Creek while thousands of Army troops are thousands of miles
away making the world a better place. The 2d Infantry Division sitting under
artillery range of the greates concentration of guns ever assembled. The 1st
Armored Division and dozens of other U.S. Army units in Germany and Bosnia. The
numerous Special Forces units in forgotten, devastated countries. Look at the
facts, not jarhead bluster.
I'm sick of headquarters marine corps distortions; if we want to really reform
the DOD it starts by rewarding the "doers" not the 'showboats".
The next Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff?
General Sheehan may be an iconoclast, but he's still a marine Corps "wolf" in
joint service clothing. His real agenda is to further the marine corps at all
costs. Put a no-nonsense warfighter-not an infighter in there. Why not recall
General Gordon Sullivan back to active duty? Or a younger lead-by-example
General like MG David Grange who used to command Rangers? General Henry
Shelton, CINCUSSOCOM is a take-care-of-the-troops kind of leader who led the
invasion of Haiti superbly and would be a great Chairmen JCS and/or Chief of
Staff of the Army.
Editor's note: after this letter was submitted, General Shelton was named as
the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff....
As an institution, the marine corps grows parochial bigots, not selfless
warriors in favor of national defense. Anyone who sings about heaven being
guarded by themselves is a seriously warped individual who has forgotten that
war is a necessary evil, not the catch-all-end-all reason for human existence.
As the dying General Sam Damon pleads at the end of Anton Myrer's epic novel,
Once an Eagle: "If you have to choose between being a good soldier and being a
good human being..... BE A GOOD HUMAN BEING..."
America first!
Michael Sparks---human being and patriot--FIRST---not some title some vain
organization has rendered to me on condition that I worship it----------
P.S. This is my opinion, yes..but I speak the truth. I don't care how popular
the usmc may be to some of the American public fueled by TV commercials and
Hollywood; popular myths are not reality. Treating the corps like some sort of
spoiled child is not justified by her performance in the nation's military
operations of the last 2 decades. We can ill afford to continue to waste
billions on this sacred cow. Cut the overhead, get rid of the smug elitist
bureacracies and we'll correct the wrong began in 1947 when we made a
battlefield entry means into a seperate service, so we can win wars again ala
1945.
COMMON MYTHS EXPOSED.......
Beirut: MARINE commander didn't listen to Intelligence reports, no knowledge of
the long history of middle east car bomb attacks, 265+ marines slaughtered....
Desert One: marines unqualified to fly special operations helicopters ram into
a C-130, killing 8 men...Making the U.S. look like jack asses....No hostages
rescued.....Semper Fi!
Koh Tang Island: marines land in broad daylight onto the beaches where they get
slaughtered by enemies dug-in with heavy machine guns...26 dead, no hostages
rescued....
Lance Corporal Jason Rother abandoned in the 29 Palms desert after an exercise;
his absence not noted for days, he dies trying to walk out, 8 miles away from
the nearest town. HQMC makes scapegoats of his entire chain-of-command instead
of reforming the institution and providing basic Survival, Evasion, Resistance,
Escape (SERE) skills to the individual marine to empower him to improvise,
adapt and overcome in event he gets seperated from his unit....Drill & Ceremony
and other showy nonsense (retirement cermonies, parades etc.) that max the mc
image are more important---"just don't get seperated from your unit!"(ie:---be
a dependant puppy).... hqmc should send a memo of this to all prospective enemy
push-overs slated for the next mc "evacuation". "Taking care of our own" means
if you embarass the mc, you will be sacrificed rather than admit that there are
SYSTEMIC PROBLEMS within the organization needing to be solved. Anything that
goes wrong: blame the individual marine or whoever is in charge. Many jarheads
are fond of saying: "There's always a 10% that doesn't deserve to be
marines----" etc. etc. ad nauseum: you call this LEADERSHIP????.
NOT.
Real Leadership SOLVES PROBLEMS, not makes scapegoats---Real LEADERS like an
Evans Carlson or Lawrence Chamberlain INSPIRE men who are so-called "losers"
and "rejects" and they together save the day for this nation at the critical
moments when victory or defeat is decided by a forgotten few, not the
ballyhooed proud.
"Cast the first stone"? The mc house is built on vanity and glass....Want some
more Marine screw-ups?
The source of these screw-ups is ARROGANCE. Some think a shiny boot or starched
uniform makes you a warrior proficient in modern tactics and aware of the
latest weapons..you are seriously misguided....
And..eager reader, I spent 9 years in the mc....Boot camp, Infantry Training
School, Officer Candidate School, The Basic School for officers, Infantry
Officer Course....to name a few and thats not mentioning U.S. Army
schools/experiences....
You'd note I advocate a mc-ARMY merger....or do you just react by your emotions
before appraising the situation....not good...
In Vietnam, such rashness led marines to chase VC/NVA into baited
traps.....THINK FIRST...The enemy's entire strategy was to bleed us and have us
leave via mounting public pressure at home...IT WORKED, DIDN'T IT?....there are
more ways to win wars than just battlefield "victories" and body counts. War is
not a sporting contest with a scoreboard. Its a conflict of wills--who's
will-ideas dominate.
Some want to quote the Bible..... how about: "Pride goeth before destruction,
and a haughty spirit before a fall" ????? The Few, The PROUD, The DAMNED BY THE
LORD, MARINES. Hey--There will not be any marines guarding the streets in
heaven, knucklehead--there will be no war....
The Gulf War?
The Army did the left flanking movement and fought the Republican Guard, not
the mc...headquarters marine corps wanted to assault fortified Kuwaiti beaches
and slaughter our young marines fresh from high school eager to earn
battlefield glory as they sit in air conditioned offices..all to further the
ego/budget share of the mc..fortunately wiser heads in the DOD
prevailed......the mc is no longer sent in first unless its an easy task or we
are desperate and have no other choice. This is the reality since Beirut in
1983 proved the mc force structure is not up to the challenges of an alert
opponent.
How about Panama?
The entire MC sitting on its butts while the U.S. ARMY AIRBORNE and RANGERS are
jumping in at 500 feet to take down Noriega.....if we had waited for the mc to
arrive by slow ships we'd have had heavy casualties from a dug-in, alerted
enemy...(Don't even try to cite a tiny detachment of marines on LAV armored
cars and security forces and their token involvement. Panama was an all Army
and Air Force war, brilliantly executed). Only a marine would try to re-invent
history to make it look like the mc won Panama and all the nation's wars...NOT!
They just selected an ARMY AIRBORNE GENERAL to be Chairman of the Joint Chiefs,
not marine iconoclast, General Sheehan....I'd say the Airborne commands greater
respect than the mc boys club for men...
I was once a narrow-minded marine robot..no...I thank God we have adults in my
formations...I remember being in a marine formation left on the drill field at
Camp Pendleton one day..we were told to wait by our NCO....hours
passed..........
......noone moved................it got dark..................no action...
FINALLY I grew tired of this stupidity and inquired in the building...we were
supposed to have checked in, and our NCO had left us...this kind of
no-initiative behavior will get you killed. Its stupid, not disdciplined. The
NCO went to the mall to get his girlfiend and got "sidetracked"....Semper Fi!
As usual, I had to square everyone else away, they were too timid and "afraid"
of being yelled at.....by a sergeant.....what would these men do under fire?
Get wiped out. You don't win wars by timid sheep.
Mediocrity via FORM superceding FUNCTION is a mc mirage and way of life.....A
writer said:
"The record speaks for itself........."
Yes, it does...if you actually read it, and not your propaganda, you'd see how
screwed up the mc is...I've also experienced it....The National Command
Authorities have determined that the mc cannot be trusted to do difficult,
sensitive missions inland; why they stay ashore so much these days after
Beirut. Army SF/ABN, infantry units are given long-term assignments requiring
maturity and restraint. Thats a fact.
"Go to ANY foreign country and say you're in the U.S. Army........."
...and that the AIRBORNE is coming to get them, they flee and surrender like
the leaders of Haiti did when they heard we were inbound from Fort
Bragg.....the leaders didn't budge from the marines off-shore.........When
America has Patratroopers inbound the bad guys know "the excrement has hit the
fan"...a puny battalion of marines off-shore is token "saber rattling" and they
know it....
"Tell them you are a marine, and they are in awe......." OF YOUR UNIFORMS...I
burned mine....I'd rather have a piece of field gear to do the job than a set
of dress blues..any woman overly impressed with a vain person who is ignorant
of war fighting is shallow and not likely to be a very good partner in
life.....
As for me, when I was a marine, I always thought the Airborne in their maroon
berets and jump boots looked better because they actually do something that
takes courage..jumping out of an airplane at 500 feet with combat equipment is
a lot harder than sitting on a helicopter bench seat and remembering not to
walk into the rotor blades....
"When the stuff hits the fan, you come screaming and running to the corps for
help....."
Negative..why should I want someone who can't land navigate? Or move by
bounding overwatch? Or do a leader's recon? Or do mission analysis? Who can
only move in bloated 13-man abortions? Who exercise crappy and non-existant
camouflage? Who are ignorant of the levels of war? Who is not trained to
THINK--to use initiative....?
POP QUIZ
Do you, the reader.... know what the Operational level of war is?
Strategic?
Tactical?
Technical?
What Maneuver warfare is?
How does it differ from Airland battle?
Whats a Sagger ATGM?
How does it differ from a Fagot AT4 ATGM?
What's the difference between a RPK and a RPD?
Which one is a belt-fed medium machine gun? Which is a light machine gun?
What is the benefit of a tripod-mounted Machine Gun over a bipod mounted MG?
If you have trouble answering these questions....you must be spending too much
time in the mirror admiring yourself in your dress blues and at the gym..I
suggest reading B.H. Liddell-Hart's STRATEGY and Jane's INFANTRY WEAPONS as a
start.
Wake up!!! marine!!! Your glass house is in fragments!!! Get some boots on or
your feet will get cut up!!!
P.S. When you are really ready for some professional "shop talk", read the
following.....
What I want is the marine corps to be under the control of tacticians not
bureaucrats at hqmc. A mc-Army merger would achieve this...I'm going to add the
following onto my letter to the SECDEF as a sidebar, you get to see it
first....
JUST A FEW BENEFITS OF A mc-ARMY MERGER
*Brigade-sized floats of significant size to actually secure a beachhead and
fight inland
* Armored, tracked Mobile Multiple Launch Rocket Systems so we are not
outgunned/outranged by enemy artillery
*Instead of filling our limited amphibious shipping up with road-bound
Unarmored, unarmed HMMWVs that can be turned into a flaming wreck by a mere
burst of small arms fire, we have dozens of digitized armored personnel
carriers and Bradley fighting vehicles to overwhelm enemies with operational
maneuver, not just seize a piece of terrain...
*Digitized M1A3 main battle tanks in significant numbers instead of vulnerable
to anything above small arms fire LAV armored cars
*AH-64 Apache Longbows and OH-58D Kiowa Warriors (eventually RAH-66 Comanche
"stealth") helicopters operating off amphibious ships and forward bases in
support of Amphibious/Airborne operational maneuver
*Airborne/Special Operations plans integrated into a seamless war-winning team
NOW in peacetime not ad hoc (at the last minute) by unified commands in time of
war
*Airborne training for MPF personnel to deploy and link up with pre-po ship
equipment without need of secure runways likely to be targeted by the enemy
fighting smart
*ALL marines (not just mc bureaucracy's favorites) able to freely attend all
U.S. Army schools and pick up warrior skills; Airborne, Air Assault, Mountain
warfare(we need one school not two), SERE, Combat Lifesaver (in every squad not
a just corpsman for every platoon), Ranger, Pathfinder, Expert Infantryman
Badge testing etc.---no more trash talk of the U.S. Army would ensue when they
find out that they are weak in individual initiative, land navigation,
camouflage, tactics, operational art, realization that "spit and polish"
emphasis is nonsense and a waste of time...
* The serving marine has a hell of a lot to gain by merging the mc into the
U.S. Army..the only thing he'd have to give up is the lurking
inferiority-superiority complex, he'd have to show any superiority by
demonstrated behavior. Eventually a realization would settle in that ground
combat is difficult and we had best reserve our anger for the enemies of
freedom.
*The Lifers at hqmc created ironically at THE BASIC SCHOOL by immature young
officers wanting to be treated as superior beings would no longer have a
"career" and a pet service to foist plans that expand budget share and build
personal empires. They would have to compete with a broader cross-section of
American military professionals, their nonsense would not go forward into
institutional plans unchallenged. Constructive criticism would be created for
the first time within the ranks of the usmc officer and enlisted corps.
ABOUT BOOK LEARNING...... Are you aware of what took place in the 1930s after
WWI? War is an art form, not a science. Human creativity is involved. War
theorists seeing the rise of mechanization (JFC Fuller, BH Liddell-Hart, Billy
Mitchell) warned about the future face of battle and tried to awaken their
countrymen at great personal cost. The bad guys listened, and over-ran Europe.
Guderian's Panzers took their writings and made them reality while the book
writers were ostracized in their country by the combat veterans with "more
experience". Experience in war in the past is NOT enough. The Poles, French and
British that got out-fought in 1940 were combat veterans.....they were
physically fit....but they lost, didn't they?
The same holds true for toay. War is not some sporting contest between equals.
There are many paths to victory and resting on old laurels and deceiving
ourselves is organizational suicide. While I was in the usmc the Maneuver
Warfare reform movement was fought bitterly by the ego-weenies who worship the
corps and subsequently are closed-minded. A small example;
We were sitting in a restaurant for lunch..marine LT (me), Civilian, and two
Captains in Q-town. The civilian asked about using sound to detect snipers on
the battlefield. The one Captain tore into him explaining how "he didn't know
what he was talking about", and that "if he had his field experience he'd know
such ideas are impractical" etc ad nauseum. Want to know something?
You can buy acoustical small arms detection systems NOW off-the-shelf--read
Jane's or click here! AAI Anti-sniper set I've seen them and they work. What an
asshole that Captain (is) was....This is the smug, arrogant attitude in the
corps I'm talking about.....We had a near accident during a night helicopter
insertion recently and Colonels write in to Gazette saying we should STOP
LANDING HELICOPTERS AT NIGHT! Believe it??? The O'Grady rescue came within a
missile of a flaming tragedy because marines can't (don't want to) fly at
night....
This isn't LEADERSHIP our young marines, or the nation deserves of its
tremendous investment it places....
Maybe now, you see where I'm coming from and see the urgent need to shake up
the corps and make it a part of a humbler, more objective, open-minded
whole....
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V-Man
8 May 1997
Dear Secretary Cohen,
I'm appalled that its reported that the Airborne is not being cut by at
least 2,000
personnel when it frankly hasn't done "squat" for the last two decades while
the rest of the United States Army has done the lion's share of the building,
peacekeeping, fighting and the dying.
The Airborne are nothing ut a bunch of primadonnas that require far too much
support for operations they consider "normal". It would be far better to
convert them to Air Assault so they can at least support themselves without
having to go outside the service. This would also eliminate much of their need
for supporting fires from outside their TO&E as their number o combat aircraft
would go up.
Stop wasting taxpayer money on prima donnas and get us better bang for the
buck.
Wish you were here! V-Man
<*> A Knight is sworn to Valor, His Heart knows only Virtue
=/\= His Blade defends the Weak, His Word speaks only Truth
(-o-) His Wrath undoes the Wicked
krasus
Second, you first claim that the Marines going on about WW2 should be
ignored, but then go on to use WW2 to support your own position. On that
one issue alone your letter gets thrown in the bin.
Third - you sound like a half assed militia man. Don't talk about tactics,
you will be dismissed out of hand, tactics in a debate as this are
irrelevant.
Fourth - While you have not wriiten, or thought this out very well, and have
used some very dodgy examples and very inaccurate examples, I think your
overall point is a fair one.
Fifth - a few comments on your historical knowledge...
read on....
--
Krasus the wise.
---------------------------
JRVining <jrvi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010517151000...@ng-md1.aol.com...
> http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5265/sacredcow.htm
>
> (LETTER I WROTE TO THE SECDEF MONTHS AGO)
>
> 8 May 1997
>
> Dear Secretary Cohen,
[snip]
> Keep fighting units, merge them into the U.S. Army so it can have both an
> AIRBORNE and amphibious Corps for seamless AIRLAND battle with its "bugs
worked
> out" NOW before war starts, just like D-Day, June 6, 1944 where the U.S.
> ARMY----not the marines--- led the largest AIRBORNE-amphibious invasion in
> history to win the war in Europe against Hitler's Germany.
The Soviet Union won the war at Stalingrad. The US/UK forces were not
needed and Normandy was irrelevant to Germanies defeat.
> The marines have
> never fought a first-rate enemy in war; the Japanese in the Pacific were
> primarily foot infantry, the Germans in WWI exhausted by the time we got
there.
> Only the U.S. Army has fought and defeated a first-rate combined arms
(tanks,
> armored personnel carriers, artillery, engineers etc.) power---Nazi
Germany in
> 1942-45--we lose sight of this fact amidst marine revisionism and bluster.
With the exception of the Africa Korps the US army never faced an 'up to
strength' German Military. The closest they came was at the battle of the
bulge, even then the Germans suffered from logistical shortages.
[snip]
> Don't blame headquarters marine corps; they don't want to cut back on
their
> bureacracy for a force structure able to do anything but low-risk media
> intensive evacuations and beach landings; almost a quarter of a million
marines
> yet unable to take a beachhead if anything more than an enemy Brigade is
> defending it. Less than 3 foot-mobile, low-skill level quasi-light
infantry
> divisions out of 174,000 men at a cost of BILLIONS of dollars.
Low skill level ? The US military is looked upon as not that skilled by
many western armies. In fact, we laugh, a lot. However, the US marine
corps is considered to be quite decent, still below our standards of course,
but above most of your infantry.
[snip]
> We had unqualified for special operations marines
> insist on flying Delta Force into Desert One that resulted in another
fiery
> disaster leaving 8 dead.
You had been advised that NOONE should be flying in those conditions,
regardless of their training. In fact you had been advised against the
entire mission. The whole set up was ridiculous - but you didnt listen to
those in the know, and you died.
> Three years later marines were packed like sardines
> into a headquarters building that was blown up by a truck bomb, 265+ more
body
> bags.
And if the army had been there this wouldnt have happened ?
[snip]
> As an institution, the marine corps grows parochial bigots, not selfless
> warriors in favor of national defense. Anyone who sings about heaven being
> guarded by themselves is a seriously warped individual who has forgotten
that
> war is a necessary evil, not the catch-all-end-all reason for human
existence.
Grow up - songs are just that - songs, not a bloody operational philosophy.
> America first!
yeah - fuck the world - who cares if they suffer as long as we are ok -
asshole.
> Michael Sparks---human being and patriot--FIRST---not some title some vain
> organization has rendered to me on condition that I worship it----------
Uh-oh, Mr Sparks - please - the guy is full-o-shit
[snip]
> COMMON MYTHS EXPOSED.......
>
> Beirut: MARINE commander didn't listen to Intelligence reports, no
knowledge of
> the long history of middle east car bomb attacks, 265+ marines
slaughtered....
An Army commander would have done it different right !!
> Desert One: marines unqualified to fly special operations helicopters ram
into
> a C-130, killing 8 men...Making the U.S. look like jack asses....No
hostages
> rescued.....Semper Fi!
I've already commented on that - you had no hope of succeding - regardless
who was flying the aircraft.
Oh very grown up - im Sure the Secdef would have been moved by your
intellectual argument. Jesus.
[snip]
> You'd note I advocate a mc-ARMY merger....or do you just react by your
emotions
> before appraising the situation....not good...
>
> In Vietnam, such rashness led marines to chase VC/NVA into baited
> traps.....
And the army never did this ? bollocks...
> THINK FIRST...The enemy's entire strategy was to bleed us and have us
> leave via mounting public pressure at home...IT WORKED, DIDN'T
IT?....there are
> more ways to win wars than just battlefield "victories" and body counts.
War is
> not a sporting contest with a scoreboard. Its a conflict of wills--who's
> will-ideas dominate.
You cant use the total fuck up of the Vietnam as an excuse to get rid of the
Marines - what an idiot.
> The Gulf War?
>
> The Army did the left flanking movement and fought the Republican Guard,
not
> the mc...headquarters marine corps wanted to assault fortified Kuwaiti
beaches
> and slaughter our young marines fresh from high school eager to earn
> battlefield glory as they sit in air conditioned offices..all to further
the
> ego/budget share of the mc..fortunately wiser heads in the DOD
> prevailed......the mc is no longer sent in first unless its an easy task
or we
> are desperate and have no other choice. This is the reality since Beirut
in
> 1983 proved the mc force structure is not up to the challenges of an alert
> opponent.
The MC, if i remember, were to face the most fortified area the Iraqi army
had. The UK were tasked to fight alongside them because we were considerd
the best at armoured warfare. Hence the best US infantry and the Best UK
armour working together against the most difficlut area of operations. Not
very negative for the Marines.
[snip]
> P.S. When you are really ready for some professional "shop talk", read the
> following.....
>
> What I want is the marine corps to be under the control of tacticians not
> bureaucrats at hqmc. A mc-Army merger would achieve this...I'm going to
add the
> following onto my letter to the SECDEF as a sidebar, you get to see it
> first....
>
> JUST A FEW BENEFITS OF A mc-ARMY MERGER
>
> *Brigade-sized floats of significant size to actually secure a beachhead
and
> fight inland
But you just argued beach head landings were not needed.
> * Armored, tracked Mobile Multiple Launch Rocket Systems so we are not
> outgunned/outranged by enemy artillery
Thats what combined arms is for.
> *Instead of filling our limited amphibious shipping up with road-bound
> Unarmored, unarmed HMMWVs that can be turned into a flaming wreck by a
mere
> burst of small arms fire, we have dozens of digitized armored personnel
> carriers and Bradley fighting vehicles to overwhelm enemies with
operational
> maneuver, not just seize a piece of terrain...
Because Mech Infantry isnt your role.
> *Digitized M1A3 main battle tanks in significant numbers instead of
vulnerable
> to anything above small arms fire LAV armored cars
Huh ? dont make sense dude.
> *AH-64 Apache Longbows and OH-58D Kiowa Warriors (eventually RAH-66
Comanche
> "stealth") helicopters operating off amphibious ships and forward bases in
> support of Amphibious/Airborne operational maneuver
Wow - a comment that makes sense.
> *Airborne/Special Operations plans integrated into a seamless war-winning
team
> NOW in peacetime not ad hoc (at the last minute) by unified commands in
time of
> war
You read to much Clancy.
> *Airborne training for MPF personnel to deploy and link up with pre-po
ship
> equipment without need of secure runways likely to be targeted by the
enemy
> fighting smart
Thats not their role
> *ALL marines (not just mc bureaucracy's favorites) able to freely attend
all
> U.S. Army schools and pick up warrior skills; Airborne, Air Assault,
Mountain
> warfare(we need one school not two), SERE, Combat Lifesaver (in every
squad not
> a just corpsman for every platoon), Ranger, Pathfinder, Expert Infantryman
> Badge testing etc.---no more trash talk of the U.S. Army would ensue when
they
> find out that they are weak in individual initiative, land navigation,
> camouflage, tactics, operational art, realization that "spit and polish"
> emphasis is nonsense and a waste of time...
Another good comment - are you ill ?
[snip]
> ABOUT BOOK LEARNING...... Are you aware of what took place in the 1930s
after
> WWI? War is an art form, not a science. Human creativity is involved. War
> theorists seeing the rise of mechanization (JFC Fuller, BH Liddell-Hart,
Billy
> Mitchell) warned about the future face of battle and tried to awaken their
> countrymen at great personal cost. The bad guys listened, and over-ran
Europe.
> Guderian's Panzers took their writings and made them reality while the
book
> writers were ostracized in their country by the combat veterans with "more
> experience". Experience in war in the past is NOT enough. The Poles,
French and
> British that got out-fought in 1940 were combat veterans.....they were
> physically fit....but they lost, didn't they?
Yep - because the enemy had superior technology. (The training
obviouslyplayed a part, but without the technology the allies couldnt have
responded, no matter how up to date their training was)
[snip]
> We had a near accident during a night helicopter
> insertion recently and Colonels write in to Gazette saying we should STOP
> LANDING HELICOPTERS AT NIGHT! Believe it??? The O'Grady rescue came within
a
> missile of a flaming tragedy because marines can't (don't want to) fly at
> night....
O'Grady should have been trained to walk out - UK pilots are, and did.
Replacement Tommel
>
>First - what a rant,
And how!
(snip to save space)
>JRVining <jrvi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20010517151000...@ng-md1.aol.com...
>> http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/5265/sacredcow.htm
>>
>> (LETTER I WROTE TO THE SECDEF MONTHS AGO)
>>
>> 8 May 1997
>>
Err... that's 4 years ago!
>
>The Soviet Union won the war at Stalingrad. The US/UK forces were not
>needed and Normandy was irrelevant to Germanies defeat.
>
Stalingrad certainly was the major turning point in the War against Germany, and
if you wish to state that Russia was PRIMARILY responsible for Germany's defeat
I won't argue with you, but I don't think the Western Allies were "irrelevant."
Hitler certainly would have had a lot easier time dealing with the Russians if
we weren't involved in the war.
>
>> The marines have
Capital "M"...
>> never fought a first-rate enemy
Define "first rate"... is this in terms of equipemnt, morale, tactics etc, etc?
>> in war; the Japanese in the Pacific were
>> primarily foot infantry,
..and the Japanese were kicking the shite out of everybody for quite sometime.
>> Only the U.S. Army has fought and defeated a first-rate combined arms
>(tanks,
>> armored personnel carriers, artillery, engineers etc.) power---Nazi
>>Germany in
>> 1942-45--we lose sight of this fact amidst marine revisionism and bluster.
>
>With the exception of the Africa Korps the US army never faced an 'up to
>strength' German Military. The closest they came was at the battle of the
>bulge, even then the Germans suffered from logistical shortages.
>
When the Americans showed up in North Africa, the DAK were already pretty much
defeated.
>Low skill level ? The US military is looked upon as not that skilled by
>many western armies.
Hmmm, the Royal Marines that I met in Norway seemed to have a different opinion
tahn that, the Belgian and Canadian Paras and the Aussie SAS that I met in
Somalia also seemed to have a different opinion, and the memebers of the German
22nd Mountain Brigade that I worked with seemed to have a different opinion
too... but perhaps they were just being polite, huh?
> In fact, we laugh, a lot.
See above.
>However, the US marine
>corps is considered to be quite decent, still below our standards of course,
Oh, "...of course," and what country is that?
>but above most of your infantry.
>
>[snip]
>
>> As an institution, the marine corps grows parochial bigots, not selfless
>> warriors in favor of national defense.
Don't know many Marines, do you?
>> America first!
>
>yeah - fuck the world - who cares if they suffer as long as we are ok -
>asshole.
>
Don't be silly. EVERY country puts their needs above everybody else...
>> You'd note I advocate a mc-ARMY merger....
Can't be done. U.S. law forbids it.
>> In Vietnam, such rashness led marines to chase VC/NVA into baited
>> traps.....
>
>And the army never did this ? bollocks...
>
Battle of Ia Drang - the 1st Air Cavalry did it.
>> THINK FIRST...The enemy's entire strategy was to bleed us and have us
>> leave via mounting public pressure at home...IT WORKED, DIDN'T
>>IT?....
Well, Sparks got one thing right...
>>there are
>> more ways to win wars than just battlefield "victories" and body counts.
Read about how Krulak ran Marine operations in the Northern part of South
Vietnam, you might be a little surprised...
>
>> *Digitized M1A3 main battle tanks in significant numbers instead of
>vulnerable
>> to anything above small arms fire LAV armored cars
>
>Huh ? dont make sense dude.
>
Apparently he doesn't realise that the Marines have M-1A1 MBTs an that the
Marines do not consider the LAV-25 to be a MBT...
>> *ALL marines (not just mc bureaucracy's favorites) able to freely attend
>all
>> U.S. Army schools and pick up warrior skills; Airborne, Air Assault,
>Mountain
>> warfare(we need one school not two),
There is only one Mountain Warfare School - it consists of TWO phases - summer
and winter. It's in Jericho, Vt.
>>The Poles,
>>French and
>> British that got out-fought in 1940 were combat veterans.....they were
>> physically fit....but they lost, didn't they?
>
>Yep - because the enemy had superior technology. (The training
>obviouslyplayed a part, but without the technology the allies couldnt have
>responded, no matter how up to date their training was)
>
In 1940, German equipment was on par or even inferior to Brit/French equipment.
It was superior tactics that beat the French and Brits in 1940.
-Tom
"Detriments you call us? Detriments? Well I want to remind you that it was
detriments like us that built this bloody Empire AND the Izzat of the bloody
Raj. Hats on!" - Peachy Carnehan, The Man Who Would Be King
Paul Holloway
No offense to to you Airborne guys, but this JRVining character is
full of crap......his website, in a nutshell, says airborne is the
future of warfare, and dismisses anything from the sea.
Airborne has its place as a part of our military structure, but it's
never going to become the primary combat arm, and to suggest so is
ludicrous.
"May you always have fair winds and following seas..."
Paul Holloway
V-Man
>full of crap....
Hence the parody of them that you quoted.
Marvin
> In article <3B058919...@coastalnet.com>,
> James P. Doyle<cn1...@coastalnet.com> wrote in
> soc.veterans:
>
> > sounds to me you weren't good enough to get into the marines
>
> Sparks got in but he was thrown out.
Sparks was not "thrown" out of the marines, he left of his own choosing,
like most people do. Sparks service in the marine corps was 100%
HONORABLE. He went from being a private to completing the corp's very
rigourous officer training program and becoming an officer. He was a 1st
Lt. when he left the corps. Which is something that probably none of his
detractors in these newsgroups could ever do. Hell, most of them, like
Velovitch, never even came close to being a junior NCO, much less a
commissioned officer. After leaving the marines, Sparks decided he would
like to continue his service to his country as a US Army Reserve NCO.
And there is nothing wrong with that, and we should all be thanking him
for his continued service to our country instead of attacking him .
>
>
> -Jeff B.
> yeff at erols dot com
V-Man
>for his continued service to our country instead of attacking him .
Well, when you guys learn to practice what you preach, we might be a bit more
understanding. But until then, you are just sorry sacks of what comes out of
the south end of a north bound jackass (who would be $parks himself).
Don Thompson
do you know about anything except x-rays??
--
Don Thompson
Another Thompson Scion
"Marvin" <Mar...@nospamaol.com> wrote in message
news:3B06CEBD...@nospamaol.com...
Huh?
"Mike Sparks" <Mikes.new.so...@nospamaol.com> wrote in message
news:3B06CEBD...@nospamaol.com...
> Yeff wrote:
>
> > In article <3B058919...@coastalnet.com>,
> > James P. Doyle<cn1...@coastalnet.com> wrote in
> > soc.veterans:
> >
> > > sounds to me you weren't good enough to get into the marines
> >
> > Sparks got in but he was thrown out.
>
> Sparks was not "thrown" out of the marines, he left of his own choosing,
Translation: Mikey was "invited" to leave. Everyone else calls it getting
RIFFed.
We threw you/him outa here before, take the hint.
> like most people do. Sparks service in the marine corps was 100%
> HONORABLE.
As are/were most chapters over 180 days. BFD.
He went from being a private to completing the corp's very
> rigourous officer training program and becoming an officer.
IIRC, he went to a bigot university, and went OCS.
I doubt if he ever faced the Crucible, or the Corps wouldn't have
waited so long to RIFF him.
He was a 1st
> Lt. when he left the corps. Which is something that probably none of his
> detractors in these newsgroups could ever do.
More like half....Well, on second though, maybe you/he's right.
After all, most of the ossifers here made AT LEAST O-3.
Hell, most of them, like
> Velovitch, never even came close to being a junior NCO, much less a
> commissioned officer.
Well, there again, you're wrong as usual.
Most of these guy's are OLD NCO's <Nothing to be inferred
by "old">, as opposed to some half baked crackpot with a website
and plenty of sock puppets.
I wonder if "Tom Cruise" Sparks is also a "nuke the volcano" scientologist
like the person Sparkless sez he looks like? I mean, after he practise's his
Bob Jones bigotry.
> After leaving the marines,
After being RIFFed from the Corps
Sparks decided he would
> like to continue his service to his country as a US Army Reserve NCO.
IIRC, the NC national guard wasn't too happy whe we sent them copies
of his posts where you/he insults, berates,and otherwise commits violations
of
UCMJ....But I guess that's why you/he's using the sock puppets.
> And there is nothing wrong with that,
The hell there isn't! Any moron like that needs to be ushered from the ranks
ASAP!
V-Man
Subj: Re: Airborne Sacred Cow
velo...@aol.com Wrote:
>> The Airborne are nothing ut a bunch of
>> primadonnas that require far too much
>> support for operations they consider
>> "normal". It would be far better to
>> convert them to Air Assault so they can
>> at least support themselves without
>> having to go outside the service. This
>> would also eliminate much of their need
>> for supporting fires from outside their
>> TO&E as their number o combat
>> aircraft would go up.
>> Stop wasting taxpayer money on
>> prima donnas and get us better bang
>> for the buck.
> Hmmm, do I detect a little jealousy
> here? You couldn't be one of the elite, so
> you just want to get rid of the Airborne
> units. I know you grunts like to think that
> you are something special, but you know
> damn well that when it comes to being
> an infantryman if you ain't Ranger, 82nd,
> or LRSD you ain't shit.
First, Marvin obviously couldn't detect sarcasm with a AN/PSD-101 and both
hands.
Second, Marvin is AFRAID to tell us his MOS as he isn't any of the above, and
wasn't EVEN BRAVE ENOUGH to get a combat MOS.
Certainly, they also serve who support, we'd be lost without them. But
Marvin is just a dud trooper. A waste of a good slot on somebody's stick.
Finally, I had *fun* in my MOS. When I later read Coyle's "Team Yankee", I
truly understood what he meant by "no-holds-barred-tanking". Lt Jerry Barger
and I knew what it was to have fun moving at high speed, cross country, secure
in the knowledge that NOBODY could stop us.
With paratroops, all it takes is a machinegun covering the DZ to fuck up your
day.
Douglas Berry
velo...@aol.com.CanDo (V-Man) warmed at our fire and told this tale:
> With paratroops, all it takes is a machinegun covering the DZ to fuck up your
>day.
With mech, all it takes is one guy with a RPG to mess up your whole
day.
Nothing's perfect.
--
Douglas E. Berry grid...@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as
when they do it from religious conviction."
Blaise Pascal (1623-1662), Pense'es, #894.
Robb D. Shimp
"Airborne Sacred Cow"... a Hindu unit?
"We're all here 'cause we ain't all there"