Receiver doesn't slow down - commited to throwing?

[Peter McAlpine]

XV.B: After catching a pass, a player is required to come to a stop as quickly as possible and establish a pivot.
XV.C: If a player catches the disc while running or jumping the player may release a pass without attempting to stop and without setting a pivot, provided that:

1. the player does not change direction or increase speed while in possession of the disc; and
2. the pass is released before three additional points of contact with the ground are made after possession has been established.

Let's say I catch, intend to throw immediately so I don't slow down and take my three additional points of contact without changing direction but then change my mind and decide not to throw but have now stopped. Does this mean I've traveled?

[Craig Temple]

Let's say I catch, intend to throw immediately so I don't slow down and take my three additional points of contact without changing direction but then change my mind and decide not to throw but have now stopped. Does this mean I've traveled?

Yes. Players must stop as soon as possible, or it is a travel. There is an exception to that rule, but you did not meed the criteria for the exception, so you travelled.

Also important to note, you're not allowed "three additional points of contact" under XV.C, you're only allowed 2 before throwing.

Craig

[Patrick Malka]

I would like to ask a related question.

Assuming a player is slowing down as fast as possible, and does not change direction after a catch. Are they allowed to throw if they pivot on, say, step 4 after possession in the same direction as they were running during the catch?

I originally thought they could, since the rules below are only for when the player is NOT attempting to stop, but closer inspection leads me to:

XV.B "After catching a pass, a player is required to come to a stop as quickly as possible and establish a pivot."

Which means that if the rule below, or any other exception, is not invoked, a full stop and pivot is necessary before a pass can be attempted.

Using your momentum as the basis for an extension on your pivot would not be allowed. That is a travel.

Is this correct?

[Craig Temple]

There is definitely some ambiguity in what is meant by "a player is required to come to a stop", as this comes up frequently. 

The answer has some grey in it, and this is a case where I think there should be a change to the rule for more clarity.

The issue comes down to what does "stop" mean. When a pivot is set, the foot is stopped. However a player is almost never truly motionless when they have the disc. Obviously a player is not expected to become a statue, so there is some amount of movement allowed while still meeting the criteria of "stopped".

Obviously the way ultimate is intended to be played is with a certain amount of flow. Nowhere is anybody suggesting that players have to stand upright and motionless for a beat before every throw, though this could be interpreted from the rule.

Further, the rules (II.M) support establishing a pivot while not being stopped.

I interpret the rule the following way:

1) If a players slowing movement results in them being *able* to retain contact with their pivot point indefinitely, then they are considered to be stopped once that pivot touches the ground, regardless of whether their upper body is moving about that pivot. Any throw made while that pivot point was established is not a Travel. This remains true, even if the thrower chooses (but was not forced by his momentum) to move that pivot point after the throw is released.

2) If a player throws a disc and they would not be able to retain the pivot after the throw, then they are not stopped, and it is a travel.

Like I said there's some gray area there, and the rule should be changed.  I've been trying to think of a change to the rule that would explicitly allow 1) while still disallowing 2), but I'm still working on it.

Craig

[Peter McAlpine]

Why would you want to disallow #2? What's the big deal if they lift their pivot after the throw?

[Craig Temple]

That's not what #2 says. #1 allows lifting the pivot after the throw. #2 is a scenario where a player *couldn't* keep that pivot, even if they wanted to. To me that does not meet the definition of "stopped", nor is it something we'd want to allow.

Example A: A player stretches to catch a disc and is off balance, trying their best to slow down they would require 7 steps to stop.

If that player throws while his foot is planted on the 4th footfall, then that's my scenario #2, and I think that should be a travel.

If that player throws while his foot is planted on the 7th footfall, but runs on immediately after throwing, and never actually stands still on that pivot, then that's my scenario #1. I think that should not be a travel.

More clear?

Craig

[Patrick Malka]

Maybe a clarification/definition of 'setting a pivot' to include something like: "once a pivot is set, a player is considered to be stopped", or just remove the stopping clause in XV.B and put something like: "After catching a pass, a player is required to slow down as quickly as possible and establish a pivot" since it seems like we really only care about them setting and keeping a pivot.

So If they pivot while slowing down after a catch, it would only be valid if they can keep that pivot indefinitely. Another step is definitely a travel since they were clearly not stopped enough.

Determining *if* someone can keep a pivot after a throw is still a tough cookie. Ultimately it is subjective and I don't think any wording can remove that. The tricky question is how long do they have to keep their foot on the ground after a throw to prove they could keep it there indefinitely? Or how can you prove, in general, you could have kept the pivot indefinitely?

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Craig Temple <tem...@hyperdrive.ca> wrote:

[Craig Temple]

Maybe a clarification/definition of 'setting a pivot' to include something like: "once a pivot is set, a player is considered to be stopped", or just remove the stopping clause in XV.B and put something like: "After catching a pass, a player is required to slow down as quickly as possible and establish a pivot" since it seems like we really only care about them setting and keeping a pivot.

I thought of that exact wording but it explicitly allows for my scenario #2 (throwing when a player is doing their best to slow, but can't maintain the pivot after the throw). I don't think this is what we want.

Determining *if* someone can keep a pivot after a throw is still a tough cookie. Ultimately it is subjective and I don't think any wording can remove that. The tricky question is how long do they have to keep their foot on the ground after a throw to prove they could keep it there indefinitely? Or how can you prove, in general, you could have kept the pivot indefinitely?

I would suggest that they don't have to keep their pivot planted after the throw at all, only that they would *be able to*. The case where a player effectively stops, throws, and runs on all in a continuous smooth motion is common in ultimate, and should be allowed IMO. There's no way to prove that the player would have been able to without disallowing that continuous smooth motion that we're so used to seeing (and encourage) in ulty.

The criteria "stopped" certainly disallows scenario #2 (throwing when a player is doing their best to slow, but can't maintain the pivot after the throw), and "stopped" does provide the ability to be interpreted to allow the continuous smooth stop/throw/run, so maybe there isn't a better term. Perhaps adding a note of clarification is best? 

Craig

[Patrick Malka]

inline.

On Thu, May 28, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Craig Temple <tem...@hyperdrive.ca> wrote:

Maybe a clarification/definition of 'setting a pivot' to include something like: "once a pivot is set, a player is considered to be stopped", or just remove the stopping clause in XV.B and put something like: "After catching a pass, a player is required to slow down as quickly as possible and establish a pivot" since it seems like we really only care about them setting and keeping a pivot.

I thought of that exact wording but it explicitly allows for my scenario #2 (throwing when a player is doing their best to slow, but can't maintain the pivot after the throw). I don't think this is what we want.

I think a specific addition for that situation would clear that up. There are already a few for the specific case of throwing 'on the run.' Something like: "for a throw made while slowing down, it is a travel if the player could not have kept the pivot indefinitely." It is totally subjective, but I can't think of a wording that isn't.

Determining *if* someone can keep a pivot after a throw is still a tough cookie. Ultimately it is subjective and I don't think any wording can remove that. The tricky question is how long do they have to keep their foot on the ground after a throw to prove they could keep it there indefinitely? Or how can you prove, in general, you could have kept the pivot indefinitely?

I would suggest that they don't have to keep their pivot planted after the throw at all, only that they would *be able to*. The case where a player effectively stops, throws, and runs on all in a continuous smooth motion is common in ultimate, and should be allowed IMO. There's no way to prove that the player would have been able to without disallowing that continuous smooth motion that we're so used to seeing (and encourage) in ulty.

The criteria "stopped" certainly disallows scenario #2 (throwing when a player is doing their best to slow, but can't maintain the pivot after the throw), and "stopped" does provide the ability to be interpreted to allow the continuous smooth stop/throw/run, so maybe there isn't a better term. Perhaps adding a note of clarification is best?

I guess it depends how you define 'stopped.' if you define it as the ability to maintain a pivot indefinitely, that might work. Then the rest of the rules do not need to be changed at all and you get the results you want. That is still subjective, but consistent.

This actually is a super set of the suggestion above, and applies more globally, and so I think would be a better overall change.

[Jon Bauman]

I'm not convinced there's a problem with this rule. To come to a stop means just that, reduce your speed in the direction you were moving at the time of the catch to zero. You don't have to hold it for any amount of time, but the point is, you have to halt and establish a pivot.

To answer the original question, yes, it would be a travel because you failed to come to a stop as quickly as possible.

[Patrick Malka]

And the answer to my question would also be yes it is a travel then?

[Craig Temple]

I'm not convinced there's a problem with this rule. To come to a stop means just that, reduce your speed in the direction you were moving at the time of the catch to zero. You don't have to hold it for any amount of time, but the point is, you have to halt and establish a pivot.

That's very close to what I said, however you call travel just because a player's upper torso was moving.

Just because somebody never stands absolutely stock still for a beat after catching, does not mean they have travelled. There is a certain amount of 'blurring' of the stop, throw, and run momentum in a stop/throw/throw run.

So long as they were effectively no longer moving their feet due to their running catch, there is no travel. That's true even if their upper torso never comes to a complete stop.

Craig

[Craig Temple]

That's very close to what I said, however you call travel just because a player's upper torso was moving.

Edit: That's very close to what I said, however you *can't* call travel just because a player's upper torso was moving.

[Patrick Malka]

In light of the recent 'tips' I was hoping someone could give me an explicit answer.

Should we be allowing, despite the current wording, a throw during a slowdown that takes more than 3 steps as long as the throw is on the 'last' step, and therefore a pivot is set?

Would it also be allowed to pivot in a different direction than you were slowing down? Again, assuming you had a valid pivot on the 5th or whatever step?