son ,13, wants to experience school
Mar...@aol.com
Sandra Dodd
every day. If his stories are happy ones, it will cheer you both up.
If his stories are frustrated ones, he might want to come home before
long.
Sandra
nellebelle
Marcia Simonds
the situation.
Having had freedom and choice all these years, I also trust that he knows
what he is doing :)
~marcia
> >
>
Ann Carlson
It was really hard for me at first, it's getting easier, watching her
be so happy. It's interesting to observe her maintaining an identity
as a home/unschooler in school, writing papers about it, etc. I've
read Sandra's essay on public school so many times, I feel as if I
could recite it <g>. I do some of her homework for her, when she
asks. She hasn't asked me to go to meetings there or anything,
which I'm grateful for.
At this point I feel as if it's an interesting zen exercise or
something, supporting my dd but not supporting the school.
breathe deep,
-Ann
Heather
My 16 yr old son is attending school for the first time this fall. Since
the first time he expressed interest in school, at age 11, I have had a
lot of strong reactions - but what is most important for me is to clear
that away to make room for being supportive of him while he goes to
school. We are staying close. I have been driving him often in the
morning to have the time together in the car to talk and to give him an
extra hour at home. I am his go-to person now, just as I was when he was
at home full time. It has also been amazing to watch him make his own
very astute observations about the institutional environment on his own.
We have been talking about this some this fall in this run.ning group,
if you'd like to join us.
http://familyrun.ning.com/group/choosingschool
Heather(in NY)
Mar...@aol.com wrote:
>
> Anyone *been there done that* and has felt like I do..like crap? If
> so, can you shake some sense into me???
> (Of course, the gloomy,pouring raining day here doesn't help my
> spirits either.)
>
> marcia
> www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony <http://www.xanga.com/livefreeinharmony>
>
>
>
justmemarie
7 year olds all tried public school. By February, my 11 and 7 year
old were back home, swearing never to return.
My 13 and 9 year olds however, love public school, and have gone again
this year.
Having my 11, 7, 5, and 2.5 year olds at home, I have had difficulty
with a couple of things. #1 I don't interact as much with my 9 and 13
year olds... I'm so busy at home that I have not been motivated enough
to join the PTO. Also, the most I could actually DO with the kids
would be to attend a couple home room parties a year, and that doesnt'
seem like enough to motivate me to pay $5 and take time out of my days
to join the PTO, and hang out with all those PS people that I don't
have a lot in common with....and that's my smaller problem.
The larger one is that I just feel like a failure because they
prefer school over home. They like structure and order, and
unschooling feels like chaos to them. They have both complained that
their more authoritarian dad makes life more peaceful by making the
other kids just listen, and stop arguing... I'm feeling disconnected
from both of them. I'm trying to connect more with my daughter on the
weekends and in the evenings, but my 13 year old is the typical "I
just want to be with my friends.. they don't argue with me, and I just
have fun, and no responsibility when I am with them." I don't know if
this is because of school. I fear that a lot of it is... My 9 year
old also wants to have a Halloween party just with her classmates, and
wants me to send the younger kids away for it. I am doing that for
her because I know the younger kids would be afraid of the more scary
things we are doing, but I don't like the fact that she has become
less family oriented, and more peer oriented, like her brother....
At home, my 11 and 7 year olds, who have similar personalities, play
well together. My 11 year old also functions great with younger kids,
as well as older kids. He just attended a Comic Conference and hung
out all day with his 13 year old brother and his 13 year old
friends... no problems with socialization with him. On the other
hand, my 13 year old complained that his younger brother argued with
him only, not his friends... he sees his younger brother as mean and
selfish....
I hate that our family feels so divided... I know its not all about
school. It has to do with the fact that my unschoolers love my
radically unschooling parenting... and my homeschoolers like a more
structured authoritarian parent (they have told me so)... how can I
give them both what they need?
Frustrated in Ohio
Sandra Dodd
their more authoritarian dad makes life more peaceful by making the
Is the dad in the home?
If it's a divorce situation, school can't be to blame for everything.
If he's there, and they prefer an adult to help make life more
peaceful, you could do that too. There's nothing in unschooling that
encourages people not listening, or people arguing, or life not being
peaceful.
-=- My 9 year
old also wants to have a Halloween party just with her classmates, and
wants me to send the younger kids away for it. I am doing that for
her because I know the younger kids would be afraid of the more scary
things we are doing, but I don't like the fact that she has become
less family oriented, and more peer oriented, like her brother....-=-
So you will do it grudgingly? That won't be good for anyone
involved. Accept facts. <g> Accept your children the way they are
and they'll want to spend more time with you.
-=- I hate that our family feels so divided... I know its not all about
school. It has to do with the fact that my unschoolers love my
radically unschooling parenting... and my homeschoolers like a more
structured authoritarian parent (they have told me so)... how can I
give them both what they need?-=-
Two suggestions:
1) Try not to hate anything. "I hate..." is too powerful. It makes
you full of hate; hateful.
2) Don't see four children as "both." Don't lump them in teams. Try
to give each of the four more of what he or she needs.
Sandra
k
That sounds too simplistic. It really isn't. Brian and I were separated and are now reunited. The word "hate" may be true of you. I don't know. I would venture to say, having experienced it myself, that the less you are able to countenance the idea of "hate" and realize that the feeling based on your thinking, the more you'll be able to embrace not only your children for who they are but also your husband for who he is. A lot of that is about heredity and genes not just influence. AND the good news is that this is true for your husband too as well as YOU. :D
What this boils down to is that you have a diverse household. Celebrate it.
Somebody recently in a nonparenting forum I belong to that it might be a good exercise to replace the word "frustrate" with "fascinate." This begins to open up the ability to learn from things that irritate, madden, sadden and frustrate us. To become more open to the fact that those things (and people) are fascinating elements of what makes up life for us.
~Katherine
k
Corrections ---
"realize that the feeling IS based on your thinking"
"Somebody recently SAID/WROTE in a nonparenting forum"
Jacquie Krauskopf
Schuyler Waynforth
I would be sad if Simon or Linnaea decided that they wanted to go to school. But I would totally support them in doing so.
Schuyler
Joyce Fetteroll
On Oct 6, 2009, at 10:34 AM, Jacquie Krauskopf wrote:
> In orther words the homeschool was made into school as much as
> possible.
I can see how a parent might see in a child's desire a lack of
understanding of the bad parts. And then it might fill a parent with
a desire to teach the kids so they can make a better decision.
What those kids got wasn't an experience of school but was
essentially propaganda: limited information to sway someone's
opinion. It would be like someone reading you the dull bits of Moby
Dick or the lurid bits of Lolita to convince you that you shouldn't
read them.
School is not just the bad parts. (And school definitely isn't
pretend versions of the bad parts.) It's a full on experience of
laughing kids and teachers yelling and bad lunches and trading notes
and swings and bullies.
My daughter learned the same lesson by going to school. She
experienced the good and the bad. For 2 months the bad was worth
putting up with to experience the good. After 2 months she had made
her own assessment. She'd weighed the good and the bad. She decided
for herself that it wasn't worth it.
While those kids might have given up *asking* about school, that
doesn't mean they weren't still curious. But they'd feel guilty about
being curious when their parents had shown them how not worthy school
was of their curiosity.
It could be the kids were relieved after that day that they hadn't
tried school but their decision was based on false knowledge. They
never experienced school. They only experienced someone else's
expurgated telling of it, with all the good parts taken out for fear
that the children might find something intriguing. The kids' dislike
of school is sort of like someone ranting about the horridness of a
TV show based only on what someone told them it was about.
Joyce
k
>>>It could be the kids were relieved after that day that they hadn't
tried school but their decision was based on false knowledge. They
never experienced school. They only experienced someone else's
expurgated telling of it, with all the good parts taken out for fear
that the children might find something intriguing. The kids' dislike
of school is sort of like someone ranting about the horridness of a
TV show based only on what someone told them it was about.<<<
When I left home at 25 and found out what the world is REALLY like, a polyglot of all kinds of thing, that experience thoroughly and utterly discredited my parents in my eyes. Not a desirable outcome for me or my parents. At first I was mad because I felt I had been robbed. Years and years later, I'm more philosophical about it. Even now there are so many things I can't share with them because of their heartfelt beliefs. They're closed and unable to hear. I listen to them talk instead. It's not a very open trusting relationship but it's more peaceful because I've come to terms with the limits of it.
Don't your paradigm rule your children. Rather let it be in service to you in your life and your outlook.
~Katherine
Sandra Dodd
of school is sort of like someone ranting about the horridness of a
The ranting is the worst part. <G>
My kids don't have a big school prejudice at all, but they have all at
one time or another shaken their heads or rolled their eyes about the
behavior or attitude of a "school kid." The differences are hard to
describe, but on occasion they are striking. Sometimes my kids are
stunned by the school-effects people their age will show sometimes.
Sometimes it's a sudden burst of spiteful immaturity. Sometimes it's
cringing disdain for a topic or an experience, like not wanting to
watch a movie that's "educational" or not wanting to go to a museum.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
in service to you in your life and your outlook.-=-
But the parents who tell their children that the world is evil are
letting their paradigm serve them in their life and outlook.
Sandra
k
Sometimes in every life there's stuff that's not the choice I'd pick (negatives), but my point is to see both the choice TO and the choice NOT to as part of the array that is my own selection as well as that of others around me. Negativity can grind things down to such a halt that I can't even think since my very thoughts (the choice to do something negative) can be viewed as "evil " or "wrong." Seeing "evil" as absolutely forbidden pretends that it it isn't viable as a choice even, which is not true. It has the tendency to make certain undesirable or risky things seem attractive.
~Katherine
k
Sandra Dodd
Fear to think.
Inability to think.
Don't assume everyone has made a choice. Some have fallen into or
been nudged into something without thinking.
Sandra
Mme.V
I'm not, because I wouldn't let my kid go.
~ I have negative opinions about mainstream public schools and as much
as I want to support my son's choices I would have serious problems
sending him into the system I think is harmful. I think using
services that a school offers would be acceptable but I have serious
aversion to the way the whole thing is set up and wouldn't let my son
go on a daily basis. We have a part time public school for
homeschoolers in our area but the way it's set up is nothing I'd want
my family involved with.
As my son get's older I can't say that he won't want to go, but so
far, he wants to stay home. It is very rare that I make choices for
other people but this is the one I think is ok.:)
Sandra Dodd
I'm not, because I wouldn't let my kid go.-=-
Whether a parent would "let a kid go" to school isn't the mark or
decider of "really an unschooler."
How old is your son? That's important to this discussion and to how
others reading can consider your statement.
-=~ I have negative opinions about mainstream public schools and as much
as I want to support my son's choices I would have serious problems
sending him into the system I think is harmful.-=-
"Sending him" isn't what would be happening if he himself really
preferred school to home.
One of the worst things about school is that the kids have no
choice. Some homeschooling parents create that same problem at home;
the kids have no choice.
When home is fantastic, wonderful, warm, fun, then the child can make
his own choice to stay home. Sometimes when parents say "You're never
going to school," home seems claustrophobic, punishing and cold.
Some parents take their decision to unschool, then, as license not to
do much with their children. Some people take a stance like
"anything is better than school" and then their unschooling is at the
"barely better than school" level. I object every time I get a
chance to do so.
Sandra
Mar...@aol.com
k
Joyce Fetteroll
I have negative opinions about mainstream public schools
and as muchas I want to support my son's choices I would have serious problemssending him into the system I think is harmful
I have seriousaversion to the way the whole thing is set up and wouldn't let my songo on a daily basis.
Diane Bentzen
| I've been loosely following this discussion. My daughter and I decided she could try fourth grade this year. The schools here are not good, but she really wanted to try it, and be around people, kids, all day long. I also have strong negative opinions about schools, all schools, but including the mainstream public schools, and especially the local public schools. Subjectively, I grew up in these schools, and objectively, they score very low in any public measure. I told my daughter that if she wanted to try school, she would have to stay for several weeks. I only wrote school dates on the calendar until October. I find her being in school frustrating, but she finds it exhilarating and exciting. She says she wants to stay, so I'm finding ways to support her and decrease my own anxieties about it. One of my big fears was bullies, but she's shown that she's no victim, and relishes sharing her stories of how she coped successfully with various threats or challenges at school. She's feeling independent and competent in this new environment, although she recognizes its imperfections. Her older brother, still at home, wants her to come back home, so I'm also finding ways to support him in his new role as part-time "only child." Things seem to be heading for an even keel here, a new "normal" that will last until a new twist in our shared road. I still see the system itself as potentially harmful, but she seems to be immunized against much of that harm by the years at home and knowing that she's got someone on her side to counsel and advocate for her, and if it's not working for her, she's got other options. :-) Diane |
|
|
Joyce Fetteroll
I told my daughter that if she wanted to try school, she would have to stay for several weeks
Sandra Dodd
knowing that she's got someone on her side to counsel and advocate for
That's cool. I have a question about this, though:
-=-I told my daughter that if she wanted to try school, she would have
to stay for several weeks. -=-
I think this is a mistake. It seems like an arbitrary "have to." At
least you didn't say she had to finish a year or a semester, as some
parents do, but why did you make that requirement?
You put a "no choice" clause on something that could have and would
have been choice. I don't understand it.
-=-I find her being in school frustrating, but she finds it
exhilarating and exciting. She says she wants to stay, so I'm finding
ways to support her and decrease my own anxieties about it. -=-
Once the "required" time passes (your requirement) then she's there by
choice. She might be the only one at the whole school who's there by
choice, and knowing she can return home if she wants to (if she can)
makes her experience completely different from the other kids'.
Sandra
Diane Bentzen
| Yeah, I knew that "have to" would bother this list, but I don't think she would be able to see what school "is" in the first few days. Especially since this school is newly opening and there might be more than the usual chaos opening the doors. Few weeks was a plan, and a plan that I think was fair to the experience, but it wasn't a sink or swim situation, either. Perhaps I should have said onlist, "If you're wanting to go you should plan to stay for several weeks so you have time to see what school is really about." That may be truer to the ongoing communication we had during that time. We were still in contact and if it had been a really bad situation I would have been there to advocate for her, make other arrangements, or pull her out early. I would also have been there to help sort out whether it was a problem that was likely to continue or just a "first week of school" type issue that was likely to resolve. We've discussed the things that people do when they're not anticipating a good day--most people can choose to go to work anyway, they can call in, or they can quit their job. She has that same continuum of options. Just as with a job, if she were wanting to "call in" a lot, I'd start to advise quitting that "job." So far, though, she's not wanting to call in, and she still won't need to develop that necessary school-skill "faking illness." :-) Diane |
Sandra Dodd
they can call in, or they can quit their job. She has that same
continuum of options. Just as with a job, if she were wanting to "call
in" a lot, I'd start to advise quitting that "job." So far, though,
she's not wanting to call in, and she still won't need to develop that
I loved school so much that I would go even if I really was sick. If
I said "I don't feel good," the teachers, school nurse and my mom all
knew I was really, truly sick. Teachers would send me to the school
nurse against my will sometimes. I just wanted to lean on the wall in
the back of the classroom and tough it out. I had perfect attendance
a couple of years.
One time when I was teaching I called in when I really wasn't sick.
Partly it was because my sister was a substitute and she needed work,
and things were at a lull in my classes. I went to the next town over
to the mall, and saw the assistant principal there with someone who
wasn't his wife. Hmmm... Nothing was said by either of us about
that. <bwg>
In case any of you ever are teachers, get your sister to substitute
for you if the system will allow you to choose your own substitutes
and if she looks and sounds like you. Very valuable.
Sandra
