Re: Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Question: Confused about free food choices

[Keelie Reader]

Hello,

We've been doing BLW from the beginning so I understand the concept. But I know that on a deeper level I haven't been that successful as I am unable to relinquish my desire for my child to eat food that I deem as healthy. I know this because he went through a really fussy patch for about 2 months where he wouldn't eat anything savoury except toast. We went to Sydney to stay with some friends and I resolved to let him eat whatever was available since it was not my kitchen. He was loving the nutrigrain cereal, biscuits and various other sugary foods that we don't have at home. When we got home he started eating savoury foods again.

We slowly built back up to being fussy again but when my mum arrived he ate everything she gave him - I can only guess because she wasn't serving it with the same plate of issues as me!

Having read the food info on Joyce's website about letting kids have choices, it's made me question my attitude but I have a few questions and I'd love to hear from some seasoned unschoolers:

1) I buy the food that I want to eat and that I think is good for me and my family. This is pretty healthy but standard - meat, veggies, dairy - mostly organic with no processed foods and very few snacks. If I don't have sweet things in the house I don't think about eating them. My partner on the other hand loves a sweet snack after dinner. But whatever I buy he tends to eat in one sitting, making himself feel sick and finishing off the weeks stash in one go. Should I make more foods available for my son knowing that he would love to eat them? Ice cream, sugary cereals etc?

2) Soft drinks - I'm not a fan. We rarely have them in the house but now and again a bottle shows up and of course Jack wants to drink the exciting looking drink. I give him a watered down version. I don't want him to drink them because they are so sugary and it's hard work getting his teeth clean, they fill him up and he doesn't eat other more nutritious foods and they have lots of stuff in them that I don't want in his body. I wouldn't let him have wine or beer at this age (even though he sometimes asks) so is it okay to say no to this? He is two (yes it's me again with the two year old). Is this too controlling? If I gave him carte-blanche on the soft drinks could I expect him to self-regulate? The only case studies I have are me (restricted access to soft drinks as a child, at least none in the house but we were always allowed to have it when we were out) and I can take or leave them. And my partner (unrestricted access at every meal) who cannot resist them and has been known to gorge himself on soft drinks.

But we are going to Argentina soon where there will be soft drinks available at every meal. I don't want a battle ground and I think this is an interesting opportunity to see what happens if DS can help himself as he pleases. (Maybe I just have to brush his teeth after every meal?).

Is this a case of me getting in the way of DS or am I right to limit access to food and drinks that I consider as harmful? Or is two yrs old too young for this discussion?
Thanks for reading. It was a bit long in the end..
Keelie

[Robyn L. Coburn]

==== We've been doing BLW from the beginning so I understand the concept. But I know that on a deeper level I haven't been that successful as I am unable to relinquish my desire for my child to eat food that I deem as healthy. I know this because he went through a really fussy patch for about 2 months where he wouldn't eat anything savoury except toast. =====

I must have missed something. What is BLW?

 

Your 2 year old is aware of different foods in the world and could want them more BECAUSE you are restricting them. However he may be as an adult, right now he is most likely reacting to your attitude, as you seem to know. You are valuing savory ahead of sweet which goes against nature as little children, like babies, are programmed by nature to prefer sweet.

 

If he likes some sweet drinks, buy some (plenty) that you can live with - a juice or flavored sparkling water. Make sparkling fresh juices with seltzers. Make smoothies.

 

You are using the phrase "self-regulate" to mean "make the same choices I would make for him." I dare say Sandra will talk of that some, if she hasn't already. I have accepted the idea that my dd, and btw my husband, will never make carbon copies of my choices.

 

All I know is that my my dd has free access to any food or drink she wants that we have in the house at any time of the day or night, or can afford to buy. We always have Hawaiian Punch because that is Daddy's favorite. We also have milk, sometimes different juices, coffee, various teas including peppermint. Her go to choice is iced water. Every now and then a Dr. Pepper. Most of the time if I have a big bottle of pop in the fridge, it goes flat before she will drink all of it.

 

We also have the cooking Marsala in the cupboard, but Jayn never asks for any of it other than as a sauce with chicken. If he wants a taste of your wine or beer, if you are drinking it, I say let him have a sip. I bet he goes "yuk", but he won't then be waiting for his chance to try it or worse sneak it. I think it is a slippery thinking slope to start equating alcohol with sweet sodas.

 

It sounds like you are unintentionally restricting your partner too. Why not buy as much as you can afford of the sweet things they both would like, including fruits and candies? Put it all out on monkey platters. Include some protein like nuts on the platter. Always include some hardish cheese, since you do say you eat dairy, because that's good for teeth cleaning. What most of us have found is that after a while the obsessive seeming gorging-til-it's-gone behavior fades after a time of consistent joyful abundance.

 

I started observing my dd's food intake closely when she was very young. I noticed two broad trends. The first is that she would eat a lot of one thing at each meal or snack sitting  - a lot of potato, a lot of chicken, a lot of brussels sprouts, a lot of cookies, a lot of pear, a lot of tuna, a lot of rice, a lot of skittles, a lot of chips, a lot of strawberries. She would pick a bit at whatever else was served.

 

The second is that her intake of food type - starchy, protein, sweet, fatty - would vary depending on how close she was to either a physical growth spurt or mental/intellectual/cognitive leap. She will carbo load just before a big leap of some kind, doing things like asking for nothing but huge plates of mashed potatoes or pasta or toast with a scrape of mayonnaise. Then after the leap has happened, she will favor protein for brief time before getting back to a more rounded and varied diet.

 

I suspect that her developing brain needed the extra carbs for building energy. Little people's brains need a lot more glucose per pound of body weight than adults because of the huge pace of development and growth. I've also heard that the brain uses more energy (i.e. calories) per pound than the same weight of active muscle. Jayn tended to be on the move a lot more and needed more immediate energy for living too.

 

Whatever you do, don't make tooth brushing into a punishment (even inside your mind) for having eaten sweets! The less I fuss about tooth brushing, the more often and more thoroughly Jayn brushes.

 

 

 

Robyn L. Coburn
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
www.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com

[Keelie Reader]

BLW is baby -led weaning. It's basically no purees at 6 months, just giving babies a chance to chow down on pretty much whatever solid food you are eating.

Thanks for all the advice. I will buy some juices. Am I allowed to water them down? Or is that still cheating him out of his choice?

I guess I make the soft drinks - booze comparison because when Jack asks for soda, my partner always says 'go on' and gives him some, whereas he wouldn't dream of letting him sip his beer or my wine. So that is something I do in my mind to make my partner understand why I don't want to give him soda. My Dad gave him some beer at a food festival a few months ago - he liked it! What if he likes it and asks every time? I can't imagine sitting down to dinner with a two year old and  pouring him a glass of wine. Although I do like the French style of letting kids have watered down wine with dinner. but at 2?

I am restricting my partner but partly on his request. He says he can't stop once he starts and he'd rather not have the temptation. Do you think the gorging would help? He periodically gets a rash which we thought could be candida. When he cuts out sugar the rash clears up.

As an aside, is it okay to give a 2 yr old nuts? I've been wondering if I can start letting him eat them now? I mean from a safety-choking perspective, not allergies as he's had nut butter before now.

I'm a bit new to all of this. It's such a big shift in my mindset. When we used to get home at 5ish and I would make dinner for Jack, he would ask for milk and I tried to make him hold out so he would eat his dinner first. I gave up in the end - I didn't like to see him so upset over something I could do for him very easily and I also discovered that once he'd had the milk he would quite often eat what I'd prepared. And now that he can have milk when he wants he doesn't always ask for it. But in my head I have the maternal health nurse telling me he shouldn't be having a bottle any more and he should only be having milk before bedtime.

I feel a bit like if I let all of this stuff go, like teeth-cleaning for example, I'm not protecting him any more. I'm not doing my job. Did any of you used to feel like that??

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-We've been doing BLW from the beginning so I understand the
concept.-=-

Write things out, please.

You're asking things that aren't about unschooling at all. PLEASE
read more before asking these kinds of questions to the list.

-=- My partner on the other hand loves a sweet snack after dinner. But

whatever I buy he tends to eat in one sitting, making himself feel

sick and finishing off the weeks stash in one go. -=-

Was he limited by his mother?
Is he pressured by you?
WHY do you think he eats it all?

-=-Should I make more foods available for my son knowing that he would
love to eat them? Ice cream, sugary cereals etc? -=-

Read here, please:

http://sandradodd.com/food

-=-Maybe I just have to brush his teeth after every meal?). -=-

Try to catch your every 'have to.'
http://sandradodd.com/haveto

Apples and cheese are probably better than toothbrushes in such a case.

-=-As an aside, is it okay to give a 2 yr old nuts? I've been

wondering if I can start letting him eat them now? I mean from a
safety-choking perspective, not allergies as he's had nut butter

before now. -=-

This list isn't designed to be everything to everyone. If it's not
about the principles of natural learning and unschooling, please find
other sources of advice.

-=-But in my head I have the maternal health nurse telling me he

shouldn't be having a bottle any more and he should only be having

milk before bedtime. -=-

Be your child's partner without other people in between you.
Directly. Present. You.

http://sandradodd.com/partners
http://sandradodd.com/mindfulparenting

Sandra

[Schuyler Waynforth]

Everything Robyn wrote is applicable to my family, except maybe the soda. We have a shelf of canned soda in the fridge. It goes pretty steadily. I keep it full and varied. For a while other drinks were chosen, it varies, but at the moment, and the moment has been a few months, soda is the drink of choice. That doesn't preclude having tea, chai tea in the evening as a lovely tradition, or a chocolate soy milk, or a glass of water, or a cordial, but it's the go to drink. I guess what I'm trying to underscore is that choice is choice, it doesn't mean that by giving a child lots of options that child will invariably come to the choices you most hope he or she will make.

One of the things Robyn also pointed out is that children are driven to seek out sweet and fatty foods. That's a truth. They need them for building brain. They need them for all that growth they are doing. A diet to maintain an adult is very different from a diet to grow a child. Can you remember the foods you craved when you were pregnant? Can you remember the foods you may still crave when you are premenstrual? Dietary needs aren't static things, they change to fulfill the requirements of a body. If you stifle your child's hunger, if you nudge it and push it into directions that fulfill your agenda but not his or her need than you load hunger with all this weird baggage, baggage that your partner seems to still be carrying.

The best food advice I can offer is choice, lots and lots of choice. Make food available that he knows that he wants. Say yes more. Find interesting things that fit in with what he likes and offer them. Try and let go of the notion of good food and bad food and see it as choices and needs. Sometimes I really need a snickers bar. Sometimes kraft macaroni and cheese satisfies a nutritional desire that nothing else will. Simon and Linnaea are so good at this they can give precise food requests. Simon wants risotto or samosas or homemade ramen with chicken, Linnaea wants spring onion pancakes or nori rolls or just the sheets of seaweed or pizza with pineapple. They can read what they are hungry for with such fantastic precision. And because David and I have trusted each of their intuitive relationship with their hunger they don't eat things they aren't hungry for, they don't gorge on much outside of the occasional season binge on strawberries or fresh peas or well, we just made up some elderberry jam and that and fresh bread and butter seem to be a big go to for Linnaea. They don't have the weight of only for special with food.

Food is good. Enjoy food.

Schuyler

[Robyn L. Coburn]

====I feel a bit like if I let all of this stuff go, like teeth-cleaning for example, I'm not protecting him any more. I'm not doing my job. Did any of you used to feel like that??====

It's a question of priorities.

 

If "protecting him"is the first priority then "natural learning" or "our relationship" or "trusting him" are not the first priority.

 

I won't be able to protect Jayn forever, so instead I focus on helping her have the skills to make good choices, and fostering our relationship. Making choices when the issues are small, and in the soft safety net of our home, in our presence is a good start. The only food I would like protect her from is peanut (allergy) and she has been asking if there is peanut in snacks she is offered by others since she was about 3 or 4 - it wasn't tough at all for her to take on that responsibility for herself.

 

==== I will buy some juices. Am I allowed to water them down? Or is that still cheating him out of his choice? ====

Instead of asking us permission (there's no goon squad coming to your house - unschool or not as you want) focus on why you still want to water juices down. What are you afraid of if he has juice? Maybe he will prefer it watered down, but you and he can't know that unless he has the chance to taste it.

 

=== What if he likes it and asks every time? I can't imagine sitting down to dinner with a two year old and  pouring him a glass of wine. Although I do like the French style of letting kids have watered down wine with dinner. but at 2? ====

Likes the taste of beer eh? - so get some similar non-alcoholic drinks - maybe ginger ale. I still think he would tire of the bitter flavors fairly quickly. Maybe it was the frothy sense that he liked. You are jumping from a sip of beer to pouring a glass of wine for a two year old in once sentence. It's not plausible is it? It's some kind of fear talking.

 

It's not the specifics of nuts that I was meaning, but the idea of mixing food types on your monkey platter. If the kids are liable to choke, then a nut butter on a cracker is perfectly fine way of offering some easy room temperature protein on the platter. The choking danger applies to any food of the right size or hardness. People can choke on carrot sticks just as easily.

 

=== And now that he can have milk when he wants he doesn't always ask for it. But in my head I have the maternal health nurse telling me he shouldn't be having a bottle any more and he should only be having milk before bedtime. ====

I'm with Sandra on the idea of being present with your child and trusting what he is telling you. The maternal health nurse has her own biases and ideas. She is a filter between you and your son. The milk at bedtime is designed as a sleep aid to get a child to feel sleepy - so here we are back where this all started. There are all kinds of fads in nutrition. Some people get sick from any milk at all. Once upon a time porter (a kind of dark beer) was considered a health tonic. I don't drink alcohol at all, but I love coffee. My husband likes iced tea (and Hawaiian Punch).

 

I know that Jayn gets cranky when she's hungry and feels loved when I prepare her food of any kind. She's adventurous with food, and her tastes change and evolve. When she's cranky and I say "you should eat something" she sometimes yells that I can't force her to eat anything, so I usually don't do any further dialogue, I just prepare something nice and quick and put it down in front of her. There have only been a couple of occasions when the offering has been rejected.

 

You'd think after all these years I would have learned not to say anything at all, and just get food ready - but then a lot of the time she gets angry that I didn't ask her what she wanted to eat or list what's available. Actually making sure she doesn't get very hungry in the first place is one of my top priorities - life around here is a lot easier when Jayn isn't hungry. Lately I've been caught by surprise more often than ever before. I think it's the beginnings of puberty - she's just flat eating more.

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 9, 2010, at 2:10 AM, Keelie Reader wrote:

> I feel a bit like if I let all of this stuff go, like teeth-cleaning
> for example, I'm not protecting him any more. I'm not doing my job.
> Did any of you used to feel like that??

Imagine your husband locking you in the house so the "bad guys" don't
get to you. Imagine him bringing in only the foods he deems good for
you regardless of your preferences. Imagine him blocking all programs
except cooking shows on the TV so you don't get distracted.

He could have the most loving, protective reasons for doing all that.
He might even tell you he's doing it because he loves you and wants
what's best. But it won't feel like love, will it? Protection can't.
Protection feels like "I don't trust you to make the choices I would
for you."

*That's* one of the ways people get beyond being a wall around their
child. Also by reading what really happens rather than basing
decisions on fear of what might happen.

> like teeth-cleaning for example,

Try reading here:

http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/unschooling%20in%20action/brushingteeth.html

> I am restricting my partner but partly on his request. He says he
> can't stop once he starts and he'd rather not have the temptation.

I was that way with candy. I once ate 3 bags of Halloween candy before
Halloween. It apparently proved I couldn't be trusted.

But what it proved is how I behaved when candy was limited and only
appeared in the house once a year. Once I gave myself permission to
have as much as I wanted, and bought more when it ran out, I realized
you do get tired of it. We have Dove chocolate sitting out and it's
gotten stale! I couldn't have imagined that when I restricted myself.

> He periodically gets a rash which we thought could be candida. When
> he cuts out sugar the rash clears up.

When I ate 3 bags of candy I got a rash too. Undoubtedly the stress of
all that sugar coupled with the emotional stress of "I need to stop."
Without the limits, without the need to limit myself, I haven't had a
rash since.

How was sugar treated growing up in his home? Why did he decide he
needed to limit his sugar intake?

> My Dad gave him some beer at a food festival a few months ago - he
> liked it! What if he likes it and asks every time?

What if you live your life fearing the worst and guarding against it?
Your child will grow up immersed in the idea the world is scary and
stronger than he is and he needs armor (or mom) to protect him. (As
much as you might try, you won't be able to hide your fears from him.)
Is that what you want?

Or he'll think you're full of baloney. He'll see people doing the
things you fear -- like drinking soda -- and they're healthy and
strong. He'll then realize you don't know what you're talking about
and tune you out. That won't be so good when your fears are justified
(like about unprotected sex and drinking and driving.)

Those are worst case scenarios but it's likely he'll have a bit of
those if you live your life protecting him from the world.

There are some things in life that are truths. Driving while drunk
does affect people's judgement. That can be measured and tested.
Having a sip of beer leading to a nightly mug has no basis in reality.
That's just fear. My daughter (as did I) has been allowed to drink
(uncut) alcohol since she first asked. At 19 she she rarely finishes
the occasional glass of wine I pour for her. When we visited England
she could legally drink but only had 2 glasses while there and didn't
finish either. When I was a kid my aunt would serve everyone
(including my sister and I) mixed drinks or wine. I rarely finished
one. As an adult I average maybe a glass of wine a month.

Joyce

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 8, 2010, at 9:07 PM, Keelie Reader wrote:

> I buy the food that I want to eat and that I think is good for me
> and my family. This is pretty healthy but standard - meat, veggies,
> dairy - mostly organic with no processed foods and very few snacks.

Most unschooling moms do buy the bulk of the food based on their own
values of what is good, taking into account preferences (eg, no fish
if someone strongly objects to the smell and taste.) Most kids aren't
interested in coming up with a week of meals for the whole family ;-)

*To that* kids are invited to add whatever they'd like.

For kids who've never been restricted, they ask for just what they'd
like. (My daughter often can't think of anything to add.)

For kids who've been restricted it can feel like the gates have
dropped and they're set FREEEEE!!!!! And they can go wild. Until they
realize the freedom will last and really can have what they want when
they want and then they settle down.

(There are, of course, real life restrictions. No one has the ability
to get everything at every moment. Some people do live on budgets. But
when life is approached with seeing what is possible with what is
available rather than what is not possible with what is available,
they don't feel as much like restrictions as challenges.)

> We rarely have them in the house but now and again a bottle shows up
> and of course Jack wants to drink the exciting looking drink. I give
> him a watered down version

What if your husband wrote: "Occassionally chocolate shows up in the
house. My wife really loves chocolate but I don't like her having so
much. So I melt the Ghirardelli with some wax to thin it down." (Which
is one way cheap chocolate is made.)

Would that feel like he loved you for who you are? Or would that feel
like he loved some ideal that he wanted to make you into?

I don't much like football but I love that my husband gets so much
enjoyment out of it. :-)

Joyce

[Joyce Fetteroll]

On Sep 9, 2010, at 7:43 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:

> There are some things in life that are truths. Driving while drunk

Sorry, didn't flesh that out.

When kids know their parents are on their sides, when parents help
them find safe ways to do what they want to do, then kids do listen
when we help them be safe.

When kids feel respected, when they've experienced a life time of
their desires being respected and supported to find safe, respectful,
doable ways to get what they want, kids won't push the envelope into
craziness. That behavior just doesn't make sense to them. Kids who've
been controlled focus on pushing against that control, sometimes focus
on the hurt of not being accepted for who they are, and do things just
because they're not supposed to.

Joyce

[Keelie Reader]

Sorry I can see how baby led weaning looked a bit off at a tangent but there is a connection in my head. The intro to food on your website: 

This will be improved and expanded, but for now it's the quickie introduction to the idea that if children are allowed to turn foods down, they're not forced to eat, and they're given choices, they will come to choose good foods, know when they're hungry and when they're not, and actually learn to listen to their bodies and know what they need.

That's the premise behind baby led weaning. That's why I started there. 

--Was he limited by his mother?

I don't think so. He comes from a very sweet toothed culture where they eat a lot of sweet stuff without limits. 
--Is he pressured by you?

No - he can eat what he likes. He would do the same thing even if I wasn't around. 

--WHY do you think he eats it all?

I

 I don't know. I guess he likes the taste and he can't stop himself? I overeat when I like what I'm eating. But it's savoury not sweet

>>Be your child's partner without other people in between you.  Directly.  Present.  You.

Do you find this easy? All the time?


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[Sandra Dodd]

-=-Sorry I can see how baby led weaning looked a bit off at a tangent but there is a connection in my head. The intro to food on your website: 

This will be improved and expanded, but for now it's the quickie introduction to the idea that if children are allowed to turn foods down, they're not forced to eat, and they're given choices, they will come to choose good foods, know when they're hungry and when they're not, and actually learn to listen to their bodies and know what they need.

That's the premise behind baby led weaning. That's why I started there. -=-

The complaint wasn't about where you started, it was about using BLW or whatever you used.

When I was in La Leche League, it was child-led weaning. 

To communicate clearly on this list, don't use any abbreviations or initials.  People are coming from all different places, and what we're talking about here is unschooling, which some people like to call "RU" but that irritates me as much as WTF and BFD, because it's disrespectful to the readers.

Sandra

[Keelie Reader]

This is a real paradigm shift for me - thanks for replying so comprehensively. I'm getting glimpses of what all this means in my family.

>> He could have the most loving, protective reasons for doing all that. He might even tell you he's doing it because he loves you and wants what's best. But it won't feel like love, will it? Protection can't. Protection feels like "I don't trust you to make the choices I would for you."

*That's* one of the ways people get beyond being a wall around their child. Also by reading what really happens rather than basing decisions on fear of what might happen.

At dinner last night I gave Jack drink when he asked and I gave him full access to the mayonnaise - he loves mayonnaise. After 4 teaspoons my DP took the mayonnaise away saying that was enough. He kept repeating that 4 tsp was enough and Jack would get sick. I asked him why 4 tsps. Why not 3, why not 5? And he said a similar thing to what I said below - he's a baby. You have to protect him (from the consequences of his actions). Why should he get a bad stomach just so you can do your experiment on him. He wouldn't go against 'common sense'.

I couldn't reply (I hadn't read your reply yet!) But even though I read what you and everyone else has written and it makes so much sense on an intellectual level, I'm still not sure about it. How much freedom you can give a two-year old? But also when I run this through my head I see how much fear-based stuff is being used to determine my decisions e.g. I don't want him to get sick from overeating and for it to be something I could have prevented - I don;t want to live with the consequences of a 'bad' decision.

>>How was sugar treated growing up in his home? Why did he decide he needed to limit his sugar intake?

We've been talking about this tonight. He doesn't remember ever being limited. He remembers gorging himself and then not being able to eat something for a year! He talked about being given some money on holiday every day to go and buy some sweets from the store. He liked that. I asked if he would have felt differently if he'd access to unlimited candy and he said no. He considers himself to be a hedonist and the pleasure of eating something nice outweighs the desire to not feel sick afterwards. But when he binges he will then leave sweets alone for a few days - can't face it.

Why did he decide to limit his sugar intake? Hmm, I might have had something to do with that. I know it's something we talked about. Okay, I see what might have happened. I'm going to lift the sugar ban and give both of them full access to whatever they want to eat.

>>What if you live your life fearing the worst and guarding against it? Your child will grow up immersed in the idea the world is scary and stronger than he is and he needs armor (or mom) to protect him. (As much as you might try, you won't be able to hide your fears from him.) Is that what you want?

No this is the opposite of what I want. I think this is how I grew up and I've been passing on the legacy without realising it.

[Brian and Alex Polikowsky]

 

I used to tell my husband how *bad* and not healthy a lot of his choices of food, snack and drinks were.

I even nagged him about it.

Thank goodness I found unschooling and it all leaked into my marriage.

My relationship to my husband is so much better now than it was when I judged

his choices and * talked* to him about them.

He tells me he felt he could never do the right thing and  that I did not respect him.

 My husband is 47, super super healthy and I mean he has the body and heart of an athlete.

His heart rate is in his low 40's if he is sitting down.

He eats a LOT of sugar. All day!!!!!!!!!!!!

I on the other hand eat very little to no sugar and have a bit of high blood sugar.

Go figure.

Yes he does exercise. He runs and bikes.

My kids  have never been limited and just today for lunch at our sit down health club deli Gigi ( 4 years old) had:

pasta with marinara ( not the corn dog or stuff like that)

Between the choice of french fries, potato chips and fruit she picked fruit

For a drink she was offered any pop, milk or chocolate milk and juices- she picked orange juice.

My kids can eat ANYTHING they want and I often have lots of snack foods, pop, etc.

At the same time I have a huge vegetable garden, fruits , home grown meats always available.

Not only that but I am always offering food to my kids. Young kids need to be fed ALL the time, some as much as every two hours.

 MY kids are lean and very very tall. They are healthy and if I can help it they will not have any food bagage.

I want them to eat when they are hungry and stop when they are satisfied and full.

I want them to enjoy having their cake and eating it too and not fell guilty because of it.

A piece of cake enjoyed is much healthier than a piece of fruit eaten out of guilt.

Alex

 

[Kelly Hogaboom]

My children have total food freedoms and I observe they do not "gorge" nor sneak food. They eat differently every day. Sometimes my girl eats red meat and sugary substances and that's about all! (reminds me of your description of your husband).

I hope you're not accidentally (or purposefully) purporting the concept that non-lean, chubby, or fat kids are necessarily unhealthy. I wonder how  many perfectly-healthy kiddos are being hounded b/c their parents think they're too fat or might end up that way (esp. the girls - of which I've seen talk about dieting as early as age 5). So heartbreaking, and sadly continues the tragic legacy of eating disorders.

Kelly

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 7:11 PM, Brian and Alex Polikowsky <pol...@kmtel.com> wrote:

Not only that but I am always offering food to my kids. Young kids need to be fed ALL the time, some as much as every two hours.

 MY kids are lean and very very tall. They are healthy and if I can help it they will not have any food bagage.

 

--
Kelly Hogaboom
814 1st Street
PO Box 205
Hoquiam, WA 98550
(360)532-9453
http://kelly.hogaboom.org/
http://underbellie.com/

[Brian and Alex Polikowsky]

<<<<I hope you're not accidentally (or purposefully) purporting the concept that non-lean, chubby, or fat kids are necessarily unhealthy>>>

 

I actually wrote that because most mainstream parents are very afraid that *sugar* and other bad foods will make their children obese.]

All they talk about now on the news is how children now eat a very unhealthy diet and are becoming more and more obese and how parents

need to control their diets and any intake. Sugar is evil and the cause of a lot of fear.

 If my kids were not how they are ( lean- and they had the same body proportions since they were about one ) I would still think they are healthy if they are happy, never sick, ate when they are hungry, stopped when they are full and

if I offered and made available a variety of different foods including food with sugar like cookies, candy, baked goods and pop.

Alex Polikowsky

 

[Schuyler Waynforth]

Mayonnaise, egg and oil and vinegar or lemon juice, maybe a bit of mustard. It's not a particularly unhealthy condiment. My guess is that he might eat more the first time than he was comfortable with eating, but when he gets a sense that his life is mayonnaise rich, he's not going to eat more than he wants to. Unfortunately for your partner he doesn't feel that he is safe with food so it may be hard for him to trust that his son will come to a point where he is full of what was once a limited good and be done.

Mayonnaise is probably pretty good brain food. Good fats and nice bit of protein. You could make it, although Simon and Linnaea have never prefered my homemade mayo to Hellman's (which I love because it's Best Foods on one side of the U.S. and Hellman's on the other so the ads where I lived as a child were "Bring out the Hellman's and bring out the best", it was a lovely cheat).

When I first approached David about the idea, the crazy, whacky idea that Simon probably has a good idea of what he is hungry for and maybe, just maybe we could say yes more, he was a bit resistant. He trusted me and he trusted that I wasn't experimenting without thinking about it. But we had lots of conversations about the idea that humans seek fat and sugars in their environment because the Environment of Evolutionary Adaptedness (the EEA) had those things as such rare goods. We are evolved, the argument runs, to seek out those kinds of things. Funnily enough, he is just finishing up a paper filled with lots and lots of evidence that counters that notion. It's based on the idea of marginal utility (or marginal value within biology) as put forward by Pam Sorooshian here: http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html. It seems that we humans favour foods that we need and foods that may be rare goods within our environment. David found all these beautiful studies, some of them are like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNA3zltptmk, but others were done ages ago and have just been ignored. A study done in the 1950s on chickens and sugar showed that chickens given regular food and sugar as an accompaniment started by eating lots of the sugar and then, over time, with the sugar not going away, ate less and less sugar. There's lots of stuff out there, agriculture studies are filled with ideas on how to get pigs or sheep fat, they are hard to get fat. The best way is to limit their food and then to give them free access, they gorge and then they level out again and limit their food. There is a study on pigs where they took two populations of pigs, one which was made up of sort of fat happy pigs and another where they were thinner happy pigs. The fat happy pigs ate a less energy rich diet, a calorically lighter diet, by choice, while the thin happy pigs ate more calorically rich diet. It takes effort to get these creatures to be big overeaters. And when you're selling something by the pound, well, it's a goal that you aim for.

And about getting sick. When Simon was 18 month old we went strawberrying with David's parents. Simon was loving the strawberries, eating them by the handfuls. David's father frowned and said it wasn't going to be good for him to eat so many, he'd pay for it later with a duff tummy. Simon was fine, but David's poor dad ended up having a bit of a rough time with his belly.

Schuyler


----------------------------

[Kelly Hogaboom]

If my kids were not how they are ( lean- and they had the same body proportions since they were about one ) I would still think they are healthy if they are happy, never sick, ate when they are hungry, stopped when they are full and

if I offered and made available a variety of different foods including food with sugar like cookies, candy, baked goods and pop.

Wow... I really liked reading that. I wish more parents adopted similar attitudes.

My kids are very lean and people assume a lot of stuff about our diet (that we never have sugar, etc etc). Funny how many like to organize the world according to the confirmation bias they already have!

Kelly

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Brian and Alex Polikowsky <pol...@kmtel.com> wrote:

<<<<I hope you're not accidentally (or purposefully) purporting the concept that non-lean, chubby, or fat kids are necessarily unhealthy>>>

 

--

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-My kids are very lean and people assume a lot of stuff about our diet (that we never have sugar, etc etc). Funny how many like to organize the world according to the confirmation bias they already have!-=-

Though I never saw it, a couple of years ago several people told me there was a blogger who wrote that she would NEVER unschool the way I write about it because all my kids are FAT.

Marty was a bit pudgy at 8; Kirby had a little gut on him when he first started a totally sedentary job; Holly gained about ten pounds living in Quebec and eating new and exciting foods.  

I would love them and not worry about them if they WERE "fat."  Keith was a fat child and his mom shamed him about it all the time, and kids at school shamed him, and she told me years ago then that it was my fault, because I was buying whole milk and butter.  But I've seen his baby pictures, and he was (as they say) a butterball baby.  I was scrawny as a kid.  I was thin until I was in my late  20's, and I'm not now.  I have the body of my maternal grandmother, and she was thin early and gradually pudged out over a lifetime.   She and I both had food limits as kids and ate for fun and comfort later.

My kids, in case anyone wants to double check whether letting them, helping them, eat what they felt like they wanted to eat, are candidly pictured in collections here:

http://sandradodd.com/kirby

http://sandradodd.com/marty

http://sandradodd.com/holly

When Marty was working at the grocery store, walking all day, moving carts around, cleaning under and on top of things, he was pretty buff.

This morning Holly ate squash grown in the garden where she's working.  She cut it up and fried it a bit in bacon fat and then steamed it.  She started it last night, and then got too sleepy, but whenI got up this morning, the pan was in the sink.  We have six kinds of breakfast cereal, bagel and cream cheese, eggs, she has money to stop on the way to work and buy anything she wants, but she wanted squash she cut and cooked herself.

That blogger lied about my children to defend her indefensible position.

It hurt her (and her children) but not me or mine.

Sandra

[Robyn L. Coburn]

One of the things that Jayn loved when she was younger was having a big old pile of food on her plate. She would want me to serve up a whole lot of ice cream into her bowl and say "more" until it was almost toppling. Of course she didn't eat it all, but she liked having it there.

 

She also enjoyed a lot of the tactile part of eating - squishing mayonnaise through her fork, getting stuff on her fingers, making shapes, stirring - all of which is much easier with a great big portion.

 

She grew out of both of these delights to a great degree.

 

Yes there is some waste, but thinking of it as a learning tool made it easier to let go of worries about wasting food - especially when it's something like mayonnaise $3 for a huge jar.

 

Ah mayonnaise. One of our staples. When the jar is empty I know it's time for a shop. Of course there is always another jar in the cupboard. That's my never run out strategy for all pantry type goods - one in the fridge (or in use), one in the cupboard unopened. Then I replace the one in the cupboard.

 

Steak sauce - mayo with teriyaki and pick-a-pepper

Chicken sauce - mayo with sweet hot mustard or Dijon

Sandwich sauce - mayo with ketchup (add chopped pickles and you have 1000 Island)

 

Breading chicken or onion rings and out of eggs? Mayonnaise does the job very well, especially mixed with some buttermilk.

 

Bad stomach - Jayn still gets the tummy ache or gas attack. She likes to trace back what she ate to probable causes. It's not life threatening consequences or even long term health to have one bad stomach every now and then. 

[Robyn L. Coburn]

-=-My kids are very lean and people assume a lot of stuff about our diet (that we never have sugar, etc etc). Funny how many like to organize the world according to the confirmation bias they already have!-=-

Though I never saw it, a couple of years ago several people told me there was a blogger who wrote that she would NEVER unschool the way I write about it because all my kids are FAT.

Marty was a bit pudgy at 8; Kirby had a little gut on him when he first started a totally sedentary job; Holly gained about ten pounds living in Quebec and eating new and exciting foods.  ====== 

 

I saw Kirby about a year ago and noticed how slim he had become. He has a roundish face, like Jayn. Jayn has a roundish face - she looks plumper than she is because of it - like Renee Zellwegger's face.

 

Jayn is plump. She was a very, very fat, round exclusively nursed baby and everyone was full of praise for how great my milk must be. Then she got thinner when she started actually walking and swimming. Then she got fatter from about 7 onwards. Now she is almost 11 and starting to get a figure and is 5 feet tall.

 

Both my mother and I grew in  exactly the same way as Jayn is growing. I have the photos to prove it, although at 10 almost 11 I was fatter (and sadder) than Jayn and so was my Mum to judge by the photos of her I've seen - and she was a ballet dancer. Both my Mum and I lost a lot of weight after puberty. I remember at 13 being able to wear again some playsuits I had grown out of a few years earlier.

 

I've put weight on now but during my 20's and early 30's I was pretty slim. I weigh about the same as I did before I got pregnant. It's not food, it's being sedentary. I have actually lost a bit by working again - on my feet at the store. My body is a carbon copy of my mother's.

 

Jayn's seems different. I mean she is developing a different figure from mine or Mum's. I suspect an hour glass is in her future.

[Keelie Reader]

I like that strawberry story!

This stuff is fascinating. I've been reading more on sandra's website this morning and It makes so much sense. Yesterday jack and I made pinwheels and chocolate buns for lunch. He ate the cake mix and He did try the pinwheels (too much tomato purée) but was more interested in the buns. He asked for a second one and looked kind of surprised when I gAve it to him. Then he looked at the bun and started to twirl his hair (tired sign), we went upstairs for a nap and he demanded to take the bun with him to leave on the bedside table - now there's a kid who is worried he's not going to get a second chance at the 'good' stuff!

Later on I made him a monkey platter w a few squares of chocolate in the middle. It was the first thing he noticed and the first thing he ate. But he only ate one square then he ate the cherry tomatoes!  

I was still measuring in my head though - hmm buns have eggs, flour and butter, and homemade so no preservatives so that's good for him. Still a way for me to go to lift the limitations in my mind. 

He did ask for some candy in the chemist (at the front desk) but I'd already paid and the queue was massive so I said it was too late to buy something else. In my mind I could hear my mother voice saying snidely  'you missed out because you didn't ask in time'. I said to jack 'you can get it next time'. He seemed happy with that. I think the next thing for me to explore is where the line is between things that jack wants that affect me- when to say yes and when it's okay to find another option. 

Going off to read before asking any questions...!

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Elli Sparks]

Wow reading these posts is really challenging me.  I've been unschooling for 18 months.  We've got a 12 and 9 year old. During the past 2 years I've eliminated sugar from my diet which appears to have significantly reduced the pain from rheumatoid arthritis that was plaguing me. 

I really struggle letting go with my kids around food.  I try my best to explain where I am coming from and tell them honestly about the fact that I am coming from a place of fear right now.  I do my best to let go if food control. Some days are better than others. 

My daughter experimented with a diet of cupcakes. She gained a bunch of weight in a short time period and consequently decided to explore natural foods. We talk about what I've read. She makes her own choices. 

My son has a rare, complex and deadly heart condition. He also has a sweet tooth and starch tooth  but when left alone will eat pretty balanced.  Lots of bread and such which is also one of the things I've eliminated from my diet to help with the RA.  So watching him eat that freaks me out a bit.  

Any way, I try to present choices and trust their decisions while continuing to trust my own body and what it tells me about what foods are healing and healthy for me.  

Thanks, 

Elli

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-My daughter experimented with a diet of cupcakes. She gained a

bunch of weight in a short time period and consequently decided to
explore natural foods. We talk about what I've read. She makes her own
choices.

-=-

If you counselled her that it was "a diet of cupcakes" that made her
gain weight, rather than a reaction to previous limits, though, you
both missed a chance to learn more about choices made without so much
added weight and emotion.

-=-He also has a sweet tooth and starch tooth -=-

Labels like those get between you and your child, and defending labels
like those gets between a person and clarity.
Maybe you could help him develop a thoughtful choice tooth, but if so
I hope you won't call it that.

Words matter.

Sandra

[Brian and Alex Polikowsky]

Sandra wasn't there a mom in one of the list that posted sometime ago that
'
her daughter only liked to eat sugary foods and lots of starchy foods?
She , the mother, had a huge problem with it but she tried really hard to
listen to her daughter and let her eat it.
She later came to find out that her daughter had a heart defect and that the
best diet for her daughter was indeed
that.
The child really needed those easy calories to keep enough energy saved
because of her heart problem.
If she had control her child's diet and insisted that she not eat sugary and
high starch foods her daughter could have
had serious problems and not enough calories to keep her weight and growth.
I hope I am recalling the story correctly.
Does someone have a link to that?
Alex Polikowsky

[Robyn L. Coburn]

A lot of the time we do mention the caveat "in the absence of medical conditions". Sometimes medical conditions include allergies so severe that any exposure is life threatening.  Another is that extremely rare syndrome (or whatever is the correct word) where a person genuinely cannot physically sense when they are full and will continue to eat until they throw up or the food is gone.

 

I'm glad you are finding something that helps your rheumatoid arthritis. My step father was an arthritis specialist (immunologist now retired) and he always encouraged his patients to listen to their bodies and do what made them feel better, but also to keep taking their medicine. My father-in-law also suffered from it, along with his father, but we feel blessed that it seems to have skipped my dh. We are also lucky that Jayn's peanut allergy is very mild.

 

Be that as it may, medical conditions such as you mention do not have to mean a relationship of control, but that creating partnership is even more important. Nor should the extremes sometimes mandated by different medical conditions be seen as templates for the rest of us lucky ones.

 

But what struck me was this idea:

 

====My daughter experimented with a diet of cupcakes.====

 

I mentioned that my daughter eats a lot of certain foods at certain times, and I mentioned that she eats a lot of one thing with each meal.

 

However I wouldn't call that "experimenting with a diet of" whatever. When Jayn does enjoy eating a lot of what would traditionally be considered less than healthy, say barbeque chips, reaching for them all day long even though other things are available, she still includes some other foods. It still only lasts a day or two before she herself adds many other foods to the mix.

 

This idea of experimenting with a diet - I may be wrong but it sounds like a reaction to the lifting of restrictions, rather than how kids who have never been limited behave around food. 

 

OTOH, I know that sometimes unschooled kids do make a conscious decision to experiment with eating or avoiding certain foods. But I think the desire to do so springs from not having been restricted, rather than as a reaction to prior restrictions. I think the reasons why kids (or adults) do things matter.

[Rina Groeneveld]

 Holly gained about ten pounds living in Quebec and eating new and exciting foods.  

___________________________________________________________________________

She still looked totally normal (and cute). I have a couple of photos of her on her last day in Quebec sitting on our trampoline in a bikini.

Rina

[Sandra Dodd]

-=-She still looked totally normal (and cute). I have a couple of photos of her on her last day in Quebec sitting on our trampoline in a bikini. -=-

The jeans she had left at home didn't fit her when she got back, though, so I heard the detailed report.  But she didn't regret any of those great meals and has been having me make quiche more often because she got used to having it.  :-)

Sandra