27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap

[John Ellison]

In December I made a "commitment" to buy a 27" Express Cruiser, I say
commitment because I have not seen the boat as it is buried under many
feet of snow. It is being shoveled off but I cannot retrieve it until
maybe May or more likely June.

The price was right so unless the seller really misrepresented it, it
should be OK. The boat has 318's with Paragon Gears. It has not run in
a while and have been told that the motors do not trun over and need
to be replaced.

2 weeks ago a pair of 360's with Velvet drives, manifolds, heat
exchangers, etc showed up on CL. I bought the pair site unseen and
spent last Saturday getting them started. I only ran them briefly as
they were dry. I will need to move on the next step and get them ready
to go in the boat. I will most likley remove everything except the
intake, inspect reseal, repair rebuild as needed.
So far the motors look pretty good, sound good, and had clean oil in
both the motors and the trannies.

I plan to set the motors up so I can run them for 1/2 hour or so and
check temp, pump pressure on the Velvet drives and make sure they
warrant further effort.

I am really wondering how diffrent they will be from the Paragon
setup, its driving me crazy not having the boat to figure some of this
out...........I am new to the world of bigger boats and particuarly so
with inboards with gears.......

So, are the motor mounts the same for both? will I need to modify the
propshaft? What am I getting into?

I do not know anything about the boat, the 360's were removed to make
hull repairs. They have the "log" style manifolds and have a closed
cooling with sherwood raw water pumps and sendure heat exchangers.

Thanks, John

[e b]

john,

i had an express cruiser for many years, if they are straight drives the swap should be pretty simple, i believe some 27's came with Vdrives, if that is the case its no big deal but you will have to retain the original transmissions. i would not worry about prop shafts, the stock is plenty strong for gas engines, i ran mine with a cummins diesel and 20" prop and never had a problem.

your existing mounts should be fine as well.

eric

> Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:20:23 -0700
> Subject: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap
> From: ankle...@gmail.com
> To: unifli...@googlegroups.com

> --
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>

[Aaron Johnston]

If the engine is truly seized just from non use for many years it may be worth a brief trial of un-seizing it before you pull and swap everything. On the off chance the engine does release with just a little oil in the cylinders you will have saved yourself a huge amount of work, and if not you are just out 10 bucks for a bottle of anti-seize (or stove oil or whatever concoction you like to use on seized stuff).

My 2 cents,

Aaron

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Dr. Aaron Johnston
BSc, MD, CCFP EM
aaronu...@gmail.com

www.emergsource.com

[Nick Latina]

318, 340, and 360 (pre 1992) are identical LA mopar small blocks.  The bolt patterns for both mounts and trans ends are the same.  Everything interchanges on them.  One very good upgrade on these engines is to enlarge the 1.88" intake valve to a 2.02".  The heads on these motors are pretty restrictive, this nets another 25-40hp depending on the cam selection while bettering the fuel economy.  I am a bit of a mopar nut and have built several small and big blocks so if you have any questions on the motors give me a shout. --- On Fri, 4/6/12, Aaron Johnston <aaronu...@gmail.com> wrote:

[John Ellison]

Hello Eric,
I have seen some pics of your boat in the sea of Cortez? very nice
work, it is a much more serious project than I could commit to. The
overall project came out very well. I sure like the idea of a diesel,
but not sure how much time I will get to use this boat and so have a
hrd time justiying the expense and commitment. I think I found a
thread you had posted on a boat design forum about installing a
Arneson drive on the Uni.....?, they are interesting drives and I have
wondered how well they work myself......DO you stil have the 27?

John

On Apr 6, 1:15 pm, e b <gon2...@msn.com> wrote:
> john,

> i had an express cruiser for many years, if they are straight drives the swap should be pretty simple, i believe some 27's came with Vdrives, if that is the case its no big deal but you will have to retain the original transmissions. i would not worry about prop shafts, the stock is plenty strong for gas engines, i ran mine with a cummins diesel and 20" prop and never had a problem.your existing mounts should be fine as well.

> eric
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 22:20:23 -0700
> > Subject: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap

> > From: ankledee...@gmail.com

[John Ellison]

Hi Nick,
Yesterday we got both of the 360's running, they need attention but
the motors I beleive are souind, I think they should be plenty of
power for that 27, I am in fact hoping I can prop them so I can run
the motors at less rpm for cruise and save some fuel if thats
possible.....?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFlX4OWYjE

On Apr 8, 6:12 am, Nick Latina <euskadi_1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 318, 340, and 360 (pre 1992) are identical LA mopar small blocks.  The bolt patterns for both mounts and trans ends are the same.  Everything interchanges on them.  One very good upgrade on these engines is to enlarge the 1.88" intake valve to a 2.02".  The heads on these motors are pretty restrictive, this nets another 25-40hp depending on the cam selection while bettering the fuel economy.  I am a bit of a mopar nut and have built several small and big blocks so if you have any questions on the motors give me a shout.
>

> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, Aaron Johnston <aaronupno...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> From: Aaron Johnston <aaronupno...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap
> To: unifli...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 9:28 PM
>
> If the engine is truly seized just from non use for many years it may be worth a brief trial of un-seizing it before you pull and swap everything. On the off chance the engine does release with just a little oil in the cylinders you will have saved yourself a huge amount of work, and if not you are just out 10 bucks for a bottle of anti-seize (or stove oil or whatever concoction you like to use on seized stuff).
> My 2 cents,
> Aaron
>

> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/unifliteworld?hl=en.

>
> --
> Dr. Aaron Johnston
> BSc, MD, CCFP EM

> aaronupno...@gmail.comwww.emergsource.com

[euskad...@yahoo.com]

The easier they can breathe the better. A good dual plane intake, 3 angle valve job on the heads and a little more cam wakes them up. Should put the powerband right at cruising rpm.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid

-----Original message-----

From: John Ellison <ankle...@gmail.com>
To: UnifliteWorld <unifli...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, Apr 9, 2012 00:45:40 GMT+00:00
Subject: [UnifliteWorld] Re: 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap

Hi Nick,
Yesterday we got both of the 360's running, they need attention but
the motors I beleive are souind, I think they should be plenty of
power for that 27, I am in fact hoping I can prop them so I can run
the motors at less rpm for cruise and save some fuel if thats
possible.....?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVFlX4OWYjE



On Apr 8, 6:12 am, Nick Latina wrote:
> 318, 340, and 360 (pre 1992) are identical LA mopar small blocks.  The bolt patterns for both mounts and trans ends are the same.  Everything interchanges on them.  One very good upgrade on these engines is to enlarge the 1.88" intake valve to a 2.02".  The heads on these motors are pretty restrictive, this nets another 25-40hp depending on the cam selection while bettering the fuel economy.  I am a bit of a mopar nut and have built several small and big blocks so if you have any questions on the motors give me a shout.
>

> --- On Fri, 4/6/12, Aaron Johnston wrote:

>
> From: Aaron Johnston
> Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap
> To: unifli...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, April 6, 2012, 9:28 PM
>
> If the engine is truly seized just from non use for many years it may be worth a brief trial of un-seizing it before you pull and swap everything. On the off chance the engine does release with just a little oil in the cylinders you will have saved yourself a huge amount of work, and if not you are just out 10 bucks for a bottle of anti-seize (or stove oil or whatever concoction you like to use on seized stuff).
> My 2 cents,
> Aaron
>

[Bohn, Steve]

While engines are out  change gas tanks ????

[e b]

John,

i no longer have the 27, sold it to a gentleman in washington who bought it to take up to Alaska fishing, picked up a real cheap ($500 ) uniflite 28 mega fixer upper...its actually in decent shape and just needs to be repowered, already have all the parts and again im installing a cummins in it, this time i bought a vdrive thou, getting the 6bt  to fit in the express with standard transmission was a challenge, taking the easy route with this one...lol..!

its a " long term " project as im leaving this summer for a two year sail but i am already looking forward to getting her done when i get back as i always really enjoyed taking the uniflite down to the sea of cortez or local lakes for weekends or a week at a time , something i cannot do with the sailboat.

the way the gas prices are going the idea of installing smaller diesel does cross my mind, a 50 hp would easily push her at hull speed and should give a max of about 9 knots but would burn less than 3/4 gallons at 7 knots... dues to its size at 7 knots the cummins is still 1-1/2 gallons per hrs and about 3gph at 9.. but it is nice to have the extra power and 16 knot potential if needed with the cummins...

Eric 

> Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2012 17:40:10 -0700
> Subject: [UnifliteWorld] Re: 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap
> From: ankle...@gmail.com
> To: unifli...@googlegroups.com

[john hamilton]

John,

 

I have a 27 Express Cruiser with a single small block in it.  If you have the Velvet Drive the shaft angle is such that in my case the Chrysler intake manifold has a wedge built into it to keep the cargs level.  When I pulled it, I found that manifold has 318 ports in it.  That will choke off the power a lot more than the smaller valve sizes.  You can go with an aftermarket intake and a separate wedge (I got mine online) and it will give a lot better power at planing speeds.

 

John

From: "Bohn, Steve" <sb...@nassaucountyny.gov>
To: "'unifli...@googlegroups.com'" <unifli...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 5:11 AM

[John Ellison]

Hi John,

I think I have seen a write up on your boat on "Hughes engines"?

 

I have scanned the Internet for info on these boats and its been fun to see what people have done. Good tip on the manifolds, that was one part I did not plan to replace, but may pull it to take a look now. We are still waiting to get the boat to Fairbanks. Did  your boat come with a Velvet Drive? Is it a straight drive?

 

This is a budget project for now, if in the future we decide we really like and use this boat enough to justify more projects.........then we can start looking at some options. I am not so concerned with power, as these two motors are rated at 250 each and the original 318's that are in the boat were most likely 225 hp.

 

I am more concerned with operating costs, I am hoping the additional power allows me to operate the boat in a more efficient power band.

If money was no object I would repower with twin diesels......maybe some yanmars.....?

 

I do not know what boat the two 360's came out of? They do not have wedges under the carbs, however when we ran them last week we had them sitting on their motor mounts and the motor sat at a 12 degree angle. I presume the motor mounts would bear directly on the stringers and am assuming this 12 degree attitude would be fairly indicative of how the motors would set in the boat..........sure hope they fit, they ran good and sounded good also.

 

We rebuilt the carbs and found the float level (both drop and against the seat) is a fairly small range, at least compared to a automotive setting, this may help to deal with the angle at which the motor sets.

 

Lots to learn......Thanks, John

___________________________________________________ 

"Hang in There"      "Dont be the guy in the station wagon......."

[john hamilton]

John,

I think the carb wedge I bought was 12 degrees.  It kept the carb pretty level most of the time.  I don't think I would have wanted to run it without the wedge. 

That was my boat on Hughes engines.  Single 360 block bored .040 over with a 4 inch Scat forged stroker crank, KB pistons, Eagle rods, custom grind Hughes roller cam and rockers, Edelbrock intake and Demon marine carb.  The ignition is an electronic Mallory marine distributor.  I changed the rotation from reverse to standard and put in a Hurth down angle transmission so I could keep the prop a right hand prop while running a standard rotation engine.  With the helm on the port side it's easier to approach a dock port side to with the single right hand prop.  The new transmission allowed me to ditch the carb wedge.  It also let me pull the engine back away from the engine room bulkhead about four inches which helps with maintenance.  The original straight Velvet Drive with a 1.5/1 reduction gear on it had the engine so close to the bulkhead you could just barely get a new belt on the pulley.  The Hurth is about 50 pounds lighter than the Velvet Drive and the stainless exhaust manifolds are about 110 pounds lighter than the cast iron manifolds.  I have a home made fiberglass dual exhaust system with twin fiberglass mufflers aft of the manifolds.  It cruises 15-22 knots with wide open around 30 knots, more speed than I'll ever need.  The 410 cubic inch torque monster motor allowed me to go from a 16x13 prop to a 17x15 prop, which really let me drop rpms at cruising speed.  It completely changed the boat's personality.  I also extended the rudder a couple of inches to give a little more stability above 20 knots.  The factory rudder made it almost impossible to keep her straight and level above about 25 knots.  The suggestion about replacing gas tanks when the engine's are out is a good one.  I did it separately.  It was a lot of work but I'm getting pretty good at removing and replacing the engine.  I had custom made aluminum tanks built to fit the space.  They're 68 gallons each.  Range is important in Alaska.  I have a single 30 hp Tohatsu four stroke outboard in the center of a home built aluminum swim step for when I need to go slow for long distances.  The outboard gives me about 5.5 knots.  I also use it for trolling.  I've gone as far as 60 nautical miles on the outboard.  My outboard was a deal I couldn't pass up (kind of like the rest of the boat) and it's not a high thrust motor.  A high thrust 50 horse outboard should get you to to hull speed.

With twins you'll have two rudders and twice the weight aft so she'll be a lot more stable at speed.  Twin 360's will be a bit of overkill and you'll have limited range and poor fuel economy.  She'll run pretty good though.    I looked at a 27 Express for sale in Sitka a while ago.  She had twin 318's and that engine room was pretty busy.  I like being about to work on all sides of my engine.   Good luck with your cruiser.  Any questions about what I did and why I'll be glad to answer them.  I really liked the job the guy in Arizona did with his cruiser.  Single Cummins diesel with a stunning job on the interior.  Beautiful boat.

 

John

---

From: John Ellison <ankle...@gmail.com>
To: unifli...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap

[John Ellison]

John,

 That is a ton of good info right there, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I have pondered this twin motor set up a lot. I presume your boat would have originally had a 318? I suppose it could have been ordered with a 360?

It has stuck me as odd that Uniflite built that boat in a single or twin configuration with the same motor?

 

I have also wondered how close the front of the motor is to the bulkhead, in the photos I have seen they look like the ample space between them, but I bet the outboard sides are no fun getting at either?

 

Did you have to change the angle/position of the prop shaft where it exited the hull? Or just shorten it to match the Hurth? The VD's 17's are right a rated torque/hp for a 360, I suspect they may not last with the power your motor is making........hhmmmm, will have to consider this when I get the boat.......I wonder what it will take to provide support for a single motor, move the rudder and prop......?

No sleep tonight.......LOL

John

[john hamilton]

John,

 

I don't know what engine my boat had when new.  I bought it 12 years ago and it had a 1978 Chrysler Marine 360 in it at that time.  The boat is a 1970, so it most likely had a 318 or 340 in it when new.  The transmission was the VD with 1.5/1 reduction and appeared to be original.  As far as I know, the 27 Express Cruiser was available with a single small block, a single big block, or twin 318's.  I've not heard of twins larger than 318's.

 

The twin set up I saw in Sitka did not have a reduction gear on the transmissions so it would have more fore and aft room for the engines.  I think it had 13x11 props on it, or something in that range.  I remember shuddering at the thought of trying to work on the outboard sides of the engines.

 

I did not have to change the shaft angle or length when I changed transmissions.  I just moved the engine back about four inches and used a three inch longer shaft coupler.  The VD will take a fair amount of torque, but the limiting factor I ran into was the transmission coupling/drive plate.  The spring type unit used on the factory set up wouldn't come close to the torque I'm producing (500 ft-pounds @2500 rpm) and the big block factory coupling won't fit a small block flywheel.  I ended up going to a Vulkan Torflex coupling that was rated for the torque and RPM range I have, and having my flywheel machined to fit it.  The machine shop then rebalanced the flywheel with the Vulkan coupling on it, set up for an internally balanced engine.  I then got an internally balanced crank kit and matching damper and put it all together.

 

Going from twins to a single would be a bit of work but you could get a strut from Sea Cure Technologies and have a rudder made for it.  I expect Sea Cure would also have a rudder box, but I didn't ask them.  I have gotten a strut from them when I threw a propeller blade at WOT and immediately snapped the strut in two from the imbalance.  My original rudder was pretty tired and I had a new (longer) rudder made from stainless steel.  The hull has mounting surfaces for twin struts glassed in, you'd just have to figure out where to drill the holes.  The stringers are set up to mount either a single or twins.  You'd have to reconfigure your steering system as well, I changed over from the factory cable to a hydraulic system that I also use to steer the auxiliary outboard. 

 

All this may not be worth it for you.  You can buy a lot of gas, even at $5 per gallon, for the cost of reconfiguring the boat or re-powering with diesels.  Unless you're a commercial operator it probably isn't worth it.

 

John

From: John Ellison <ankle...@gmail.com>
To: unifli...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, April 9, 2012 9:57 PM

Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap

John,

 That is a ton of good info right there, thanks for taking the time to reply.

I have pondered this twin motor set up a lot. I presume your boat would have originally had a 318? I suppose it could have been ordered with a 360?

It has stuck me as odd that Uniflite built that boat in a single or twin configuration with the same motor?

 

I have also wondered how close the front of the motor is to the bulkhead, in the photos I have seen they look like the ample space between them, but I bet the outboard sides are no fun getting at either?

 

Did you have to change the angle/position of the prop shaft where it exited the hull? Or just shorten it to match the Hurth? The VD's 17's are right a rated torque/hp for a 360, I suspect they may not last with the power your motor is making........hhmmmm, will have to consider this when I get the boat.......I wonder what it will take to provide support for a single motor, move the rudder and prop......?

No sleep tonight.......LOL

John

 

On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:49 PM, john hamilton <jahi...@yahoo.com> wrote:

John,

I think the carb wedge I bought was 12 degrees.  It kept the carb pretty level most of the time.  I don't think I would have wanted to run it without the wedge. 

That was my boat on Hughes engines.  Single 360 block bored .040 over with a 4 inch Scat forged stroker crank, KB pistons, Eagle rods, custom grind Hughes roller cam and rockers, Edelbrock intake and Demon marine carb.  The ignition is an electronic Mallory marine distributor.  I changed the rotation from reverse to standard and put in a Hurth down angle transmission so I could keep the prop a right hand prop while running a standard rotation engine.  With the helm on the port side it's easier to approach a dock port side to with the single right hand prop.  The new transmission allowed me to ditch the carb wedge.  It also let me pull the engine back away from the engine room bulkhead about four inches which helps with maintenance.  The original straight Velvet Drive with a 1.5/1 reduction gear on it had the engine so close to the bulkhead you could just barely get a new belt on the pulley.  The Hurth is about 50 pounds lighter than the Velvet Drive and the stainless exhaust manifolds are about 110 pounds lighter than the cast iron manifolds.  I have a home made fiberglass dual exhaust system with twin fiberglass mufflers aft of the manifolds.  It cruises 15-22 knots with wide open around 30 knots, more speed than I'll ever need.  The 410 cubic inch torque monster motor allowed me to go from a 16x13 prop to a 17x15 prop, which really let me drop rpms at cruising speed.  It completely changed the boat's personality.  I also extended the rudder a couple of inches to give a little more stability above 20 knots.  The factory rudder made it almost impossible to keep her straight and level above about 25 knots.  The suggestion about replacing gas tanks when the engine's are out is a good one.  I did it separately.  It was a lot of work but I'm getting pretty good at removing and replacing the engine.  I had custom made aluminum tanks built to fit the space.  They're 68 gallons each.  Range is important in Alaska.  I have a single 30 hp Tohatsu four stroke outboard in the center of a home built aluminum swim step for when I need to go slow for long distances.  The outboard gives me about 5.5 knots.  I also use it for trolling.  I've gone as far as 60 nautical miles on the outboard.  My outboard was a deal I couldn't pass up (kind of like the rest of the boat) and it's not a high thrust motor.  A high thrust 50 horse outboard should get you to to hull speed.

With twins you'll have two rudders and twice the weight aft so she'll be a lot more stable at speed.  Twin 360's will be a bit of overkill and you'll have limited range and poor fuel economy.  She'll run pretty good though.    I looked at a 27 Express for sale in Sitka a while ago.  She had twin 318's and that engine room was pretty busy.  I like being about to work on all sides of my engine.   Good luck with your cruiser.  Any questions about what I did and why I'll be glad to answer them.  I really liked the job the guy in Arizona did with his cruiser.  Single Cummins diesel with a stunning job on the interior.  Beautiful boat.

 

John

[e b]

a brand new 454 big block GM MAG crate marine engine is rated at 392 HP at 5000 rpm and has 447 ft lbs of torque at 4000, your figure of 500 ft lbs at 2500 rpm seems off to me even with a stroker crank, id love to see the dyno figures on the motor, 500 ft lbs is certainly doable for a small block, but 3500 or 4000 rpm seems more realistic.

---

Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 09:53:56 -0700
From: jahi...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap

To: unifli...@googlegroups.com

[euskad...@yahoo.com]

The 454 is not the torque monster many give it credit for. It like the 460 ford suffer from bad runner design and restrictive intake and exhaust design. That is why many performance marine engines are based on 427's stroked to a 482. A far better design of bore vs stroke and much more efficient heads. Also why many jet boats rand 455 olds and 428 fords.

The 340 in my cuda is bored 30 over, stock stroke, with ported and polished heads and performer rpm cam and i dynoed it at 433 hp and 450 lb ft @ 3900 rpm. The 383 in my duster is 425 hp and 495 ft lb. And my dads 440 is 455 hp and 550 lb ft @ 3200. That stroker small block should easily be at those numbers. High torque and low hp means that the engine develops power down low. Hp is not measured just a calculation of torque and rpm. I cant remember it right off the top of my head though.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless Droid

-----Original message-----

[sear...@buckeye-express.com]

I have a 72 Uniflite 27' cruiser with bridge and twin original 318's (2300 hours). These came with 14 x 11 cupped props. Cruising light at 20 mph (2650 rpm) we get 1.5 mpg. Cruising heavily loaded for a 50+ day trip we get 1.3 mpg. But running slow on one engine at 8 mph in canals we get up-wards to 2 mpg. Also there is a scribed oval on the bottom where the hole for center shaft log should go. John is right, these boats could be ordered with a single 318 (1.5-1), a single 440, or twin 318's (1-1).     Ray

[e b]

yes, and my point is made.... all the torque you stated  is produced at a higher rpm... i never said 500 ft lbs was unrealistic, just the rpm was...

---

From: euskad...@yahoo.com
To: unifli...@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 17:12:07 -0700

[John Ellison]

Ray,

How do you monitor your fuel consumption?

Do you just do the math or use electronics and a paddle wheel sensor in the fuel line?

1.5 mpg is better than what I have heard for the 318's, I have read to expect 10gph per motor at 15 -20 knots, The important number is the MPG. I use a electronic interface and a NMEA 2000 in my riverboat and it is spot on.

 

I certainly can see the benefits of only one motor, this boat isnt that big, serviceability, weight and using space for fuel are important considerations. The single high torque 360/410 is a interesting idea, however it sounds like it could get spendy and cant help but think for economy a single diesel would be the way to go. Used ones turn up if I could narrow it down to right motor I could start looking. It seems the cummins is much longer than the SB Chrysler's. I guess that the reason for going to a v-drive?

Eric, at one time you were considering a Arneson drive, I may have asked before and you may have answered, (hard to keep up with all these creative juices flowing), did that not pan out as a reasonable choice of drive? they sure make some pretty substantial claims...John

[e b]

John,

for most of us on a budget, the arneson drive is pricey and really more suited to high speed boats. as mentionned before im going with another dodge cummins conversion in the 28 mega. space is limited in the express if going with a straight drive, one option to make things easier is to push the rudder back under the swim platform, it would give an extra two feet or so and bolting the ruder post to the transom would be easy, originally, in the express i had installed a 120 hp 4bt ( i still have a custom stainless manifold for it  if anyone is interested ) the boat would top out at 12 knots, just starting to plane. i realized that, for the same price i could of installed a 6bt, so, i pulled the 4bt and installed a 6bt... besides power and the abillity to really plane, the main difference was noise, the 6bt is much quieter, the vibration of the 4bt made the cockpit really loud, the 6bt is soo much smoother...

if i were to go with a 4cylinder i would get a 170 hp isuzu /npr  chevy 4500, much smoother and i believe they come with a SAE4 or 3 bell housing... and like most diesels should be simple to get the power up over 200 with hand tools...!

Eric

---

Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 18:39:29 -0800

Subject: Re: [UnifliteWorld] 27" Express Cruiser motor trannie swap

From: ankle...@gmail.com
To: unifli...@googlegroups.com

[John Hamilton]

The power and torque figures come from my desktop dyno computer program. I can email the graph if you want.  I told Dave Hughes I wanted peak torque @ 2500 and he hit the target perfectly with his camshaft. My cruising rpm is 2800-3800. Wide open is 4800.  2500 is where she is climbing out of the hole.  It's not my fault the big block Chebby can't keep up.

A single diesel is a lot more efficient on paper but the up front costs and costs of parts made it a no go for me.  See David Pasco's articles about gas vs diesel in boats this size.        

I looked at buying a diesel and learned to wrench on my gas engine instead.  I'm a wage slave and it was the only way I could get out on the water.

Sent from my iPhone

[John Ellison]

John,

I appreciate the wage slave part, but I looked at Hughes site and adding up parts put me back in place, The 360's I have are still sound, particularly the "L" motor as the compression checked out very good. Sure thinking about converting to a single and moving the motor back. there are a lot of positives there, loosing a thousand pounds is a biggie. I looked up the Hurth gears and they run about 2500.00, which seems OK.

So, could run what I have fro a few years and then rebuild for more power down the road. Still thinking about the diesel........

 

Eric, The Arneson drives look very expensive, still interesting units. The izuzu 170 is essentially a truck motor?

Are they available marinized or would you just use a truck motor? Used ones of those have to be around, I will have look up some torque figures on those, interesting thought for sure.

[John Ellison]

Off the subject some, but interesting nonetheless, anyone have any knowledge of a "Levi" drive...?

 

http://www.levidrives.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Levi-Drives-Cataloge-20121.pdf

http://www.levidrives.com/

[e b]

i know the 6 cylinder isuzu has been marinized, i dont know if anyone is using the 4 cylinder, the main issue is the exhaust manifold, the stock one could be wrapped, there are a few companies that make custom marine manifolds, in my case i would probably make my own or wrap it and simply water cool the exhaust. raw water pump can be belt driven but i prefer to use a tournament quality electric live well pump, no impeller to wear or break. as far as i know the stock bell housing is already a SAE bell housing so adapters are off the shelf item for any marine transmission.  i also believe the chevy duramax uses an sae as well since it has an allison transmission. i dont know if anyone makes manifolds for the chevy.

if you keep your eyes open you can pick up a hurth hsw 630V drive for about $1000, right now there is one in alaska for that price and its a 1.5 to 1, sadly that is the lowest they go ratio wise i wish they made a 1.2.. but for better economy a bigger slower turning prop is better.

the price of a diesel conversion really isnt that bad,  $1500 for a good used 6bt with under 200,000 miles, still has close to 200,000 miles of life left. $900 for a new bowman manifold, much better than the cummins, $300 for a sae bell housing and adapetr and $1000 for the tranny. ive done 3 so far and all my parts cost me about 1/2 that other than the new bowman, for the mega,  so far ive got $800 in the motor, found someone who was putting a marine engine in his truck and i traded all the truck parts for his marine parts.. got adapter, oil pan, manifold and watercooled turbo. and i did find a hurth vdrive for $500, since i knew what my next project would be i simply kept my eyes open over the last year.

thiking about it now i'll loo kinto the 4cylinder isuzu / npr manifold, i have a 24ft center console that would love that motor...!

Eric

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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:20 -0800

[e b]

John, 

looks like the isuzu 5.2 was made as a marine engine as well, i think bowman also makes a manifold for it.

Engine	Isuzu 4HK1-TC turbocharged intercooled diesel
-Displacement	5.2 L (317 in.3)
-Engine Power	215 HP @ 2,500 rpm (A/T), 195 HP @ 2,650 rpm (M/T)
-Engine Torque	452 lbs./ft. @ 1,850 rpm (A/T), 387 lbs./ft. @ 1,600 rpm

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Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2012 21:10:20 -0800

[John Ellison]

Eric,

Lots to think about, I can see you have spent some time on this subject. I spent the morning looking at isuzu's and bowman stuff & they make some interesting products. I can see with some time spent sourcing the right parts this could be done for a reasonable cost. If one is willing to  design and fabricate some items. I enjoy the challenge, however I have to accept the time commitment to these projects once they get started the path can get long and twisty .

 

 The boat is still in Valdez as of now, I just need to focus on getting it home and then decide if I want to go fishing or work on boats.......

Tough call, as I enjoy both....................John

[e b]

most of my projects are pre planned, the mega has been in the works for a year now with me buying parts, the only thing i am missing is the flex plate. and since im going sailing in 3 month or so for at least a year, hopefully more, all will be here for when i come back. i'l be broke but will already have all the parts...! i picked up a aquasport 245 for free, the guy simply bought it for the engines and now wanted it out of his way, i was happy to oblige, i picked up a chris craft scorpion 22 for $500 with trailer and low hour 260hp mercruiser and i'll throw that hull away and use the trailer and drive / engine for the aquasport...

i do miss not having a "real" boat to use when i want for now, my next trip to baja in a month will be with a small 14ft skiff i can launch from the beach.. and the sailboat is still in the finishing touched for the upcoming trip... 

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Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2012 09:00:14 -0800