UltiMaker not accurate? - Ultimaker

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Message from discussion UltiMaker not accurate?
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:39:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Daid <daid...@gmail.com>
To: ultimaker@googlegroups.com
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Subject: Re: UltiMaker not accurate?
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The packing density parameter comes from SkeinForge. I'm not really a huge 
fan of the name, and how it works. I might replace it with an extrusion 
multiplier (it has been suggested a few times already) as that makes more 
sense really.

On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:15:13 PM UTC+1, Cal wrote:
>
> Haha--this is true and you are a master of 3D printing, Daid!  But I look 
> at the entire e-steps / packing density / extrusion multiplier thing 
> (terminology, issue, and discussion) as just different names for arithmetic 
> "knobs" that can be used to adjust the same thing--the speed that the 
> extruder drive mechanism must turn to result in the desired rate of molten 
> plastic extrusion!
>
> If you have more than one knob to tweak, you can end up in exactly the 
> same place using multiple degrees of freedom in the different settings, 
> from what I've seen in gcode.  An e-step / millimeter setting can be set 
> completely "wrong" and yet you can get awesome prints by nullifying the 
> error with an equally "wrong" setting in "packing density" in the opposite 
> direction, for example.
>
> By the way, I like that Cura follows the logical directional sense of the 
> term, "packing density."  Smaller numbers cause more plastic to be 
> extruded.  If filament isn't "packed" very densely, it takes MORE lineal 
> filament to make a good print and compensate for the low packing density. 
>  Netfabb gets it backwards, in my semantic opinion.  Netfab actually uses 
> "extrusion multiplier" but incorrectly calls it "packing density."
>
> On the other hand, I prefer the term "extrusion multiplier."  It's clear 
> from the term what it (should) do!
>
> -Cal
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:50:38 AM UTC-8, Daid wrote:
>>
>> Calibrating E-steps is not needed for decent to good prints. It's only 
>> needed for awesome prints.
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:25:54 PM UTC+1, Kevin R wrote:
>>>
>>> If your print is coming out messy it is, as Daid says, likely a 
>>> mechanical issue. I'd like to also add to that to make sure you calibrated 
>>> to E steps correctly when setting up Cura and measured your filament 
>>> thickness accurately. At thin layer heights errors in this value begin to 
>>> show.
>>>
>>> @PaulM: Printing overhangs is a bitch, especially with thin layers. 
>>> Actually, the thinner you go the more they tend to curl. This is usually 
>>> not enough cooling, though I've experimented with turning the cooling down 
>>> so that that layer didn't really cool and curl. This seams to work as well 
>>> but then drooping due to gravity can become an issue. You can also try 
>>> printing slower. I can't remembered who did this experiment (I think Dave 
>>> Durrant?) showing the effect of flow and speed on overhangs. I believe if 
>>> you slow down, you can minimize noodling and curling. Someone correct me if 
>>> I'm wrong!
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:59 PM, PaulM <paulmu...@googlemail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Likewise, I was having trouble with the robot over the weekend. Most of 
>>>> my prints come out well, but this one struggled.
>>>>
>>>> I tried all sorts of settings, but It always seems to go wrong just 
>>>> after the legs where it starts the overhand and support for the arms. The 
>>>> print just goes stringy and messy seemingly whatever settings I use 
>>>> (although I haven't tried the default profiles). Watching it print, the 
>>>> arms and 4 corners seemed to be springing upwards a little after the head 
>>>> moved on so I guess this is at the root of the problem.
>>>>
>>>> The only thing that vaguely made a difference was layer cooling time, 
>>>> and then not much. Maybe this is due to poor cooling? I'm using the stock 
>>>> shroud and very little air gets to the robot due to the small size and gap 
>>>> between the head and fan opening.
>>>>  
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, November 12, 2012 9:23:04 PM UTC, Daid wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The robots we print are at 0.1mm. Note that the high-quality profile 
>>>>> in Cura should produce the same quality robot, except that it will take 
>>>>> longer and it will be stronger. (The robot we print at events is tweaked 
>>>>> quite a bit in settings)
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don't get a good quality print from the quickprint settings, 
>>>>> then you have a mechanical problem. Usually it's short belt tension, it's 
>>>>> the nr1 mistake that effects quality. Make sure the short belts are thight 
>>>>> by unscrewing the X/Y motors a bit, pushing it down, and screwing it down 
>>>>> again.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:05:18 PM UTC+1, njordan311 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, I was at the MakerFaire in NY this fall and that is where i 
>>>>>> decided to buy my UltiMaker. The ultimaker at the fair was printing little Ultimaker 
>>>>>> Robot with supports <http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:11551> at 
>>>>>> .04mm i believe. When printing this robot at home, it seems to come out 
>>>>>> with the proper layer height, but really messy. Any help?
>>>>>
>>>>>  -- 
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>>> Groups "Ultimaker" group.
>>>>  
>>>> There are also forums, which are the official gathering place for 
>>>> Ultimaker operators:
>>>> http://forum.ultimaker.com/
>>>>  
>>>> If you still want to post to this group, send email to 
>>>> ulti...@googlegroups.com
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>>> ultimaker+...@googlegroups.com
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/ultimaker?hl=en
>>>>  
>>>> For information about the Ultimaker, visit: http://Ultimaker.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Kevin Reilly
>>>
>>> PhD Candidate
>>> Department of Chemical and Biological Engineering
>>> University of British Columbia
>>> P: 604.827.4123    C: 604.313.9149
>>>
>>>
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The packing density parameter comes from SkeinForge. I'm not really a huge =
fan of the name, and how it works. I might replace it with an extrusion mul=
tiplier (it has been suggested a few times already) as that makes more sens=
e really.<br><br>On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 9:15:13 PM UTC+1, Cal wrot=
e:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;b=
order-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;">Haha--this is true and you a=
re a master of 3D printing, Daid! &nbsp;But I look at the entire e-steps / =
packing density / extrusion multiplier thing (terminology, issue, and discu=
ssion) as just different names for arithmetic "knobs" that can be used to a=
djust the same thing--the speed that the extruder drive mechanism must turn=
 to result in the desired rate of molten plastic extrusion!<div><br></div><=
div>If you have more than one knob to tweak, you can end up in exactly the =
same place using multiple degrees of freedom in the different settings, fro=
m what I've seen in gcode. &nbsp;An e-step / millimeter setting can be set =
completely "wrong" and yet you can get awesome prints by nullifying the err=
or with an equally "wrong" setting in "packing density" in the opposite dir=
ection, for example.</div><div><br></div><div>By the way, I like that Cura =
follows the logical directional sense of the term, "packing density." &nbsp=
;Smaller numbers cause more plastic to be extruded. &nbsp;If filament isn't=
 "packed" very densely, it takes MORE lineal filament to make a good print =
and compensate for the low packing density. &nbsp;Netfabb gets it backwards=
, in my semantic opinion. &nbsp;Netfab actually uses "extrusion multiplier"=
 but incorrectly calls it "packing density."</div><div><br></div><div>On th=
e other hand, I prefer the term "extrusion multiplier." &nbsp;It's clear fr=
om the term what it (should) do!</div><div><br></div><div>-Cal</div><div><b=
r></div><div><br>On Wednesday, November 14, 2012 12:50:38 AM UTC-8, Daid wr=
ote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Calibrating E-steps is not need=
ed for decent to good prints. It's only needed for awesome prints.<br><br>O=
n Tuesday, November 13, 2012 10:25:54 PM UTC+1, Kevin R wrote:<blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">If your print is coming out messy it is, as Daid=
 says, likely a mechanical issue. I'd like to also add to that to make sure=
 you calibrated to E steps correctly when setting up Cura and measured your=
 filament thickness accurately. At thin layer heights errors in this value =
begin to show.<br>
<br>@PaulM: Printing overhangs is a bitch, especially with thin layers. Act=
ually, the thinner you go the more they tend to curl. This is usually not e=
nough cooling, though I've experimented with turning the cooling down so th=
at that layer didn't really cool and curl. This seams to work as well but t=
hen drooping due to gravity can become an issue. You can also try printing =
slower. I can't remembered who did this experiment (I think Dave Durrant?) =
showing the effect of flow and speed on overhangs. I believe if you slow do=
wn, you can minimize noodling and curling. Someone correct me if I'm wrong!=
<br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 11:59 PM, PaulM <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a>paulmu...@googlemail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Likewise, I was having trouble with the robot over the weekend. Most of my =
prints come out well, but this one struggled.<div><br></div><div>I tried al=
l sorts of settings, but It always seems to go wrong just after the legs wh=
ere it starts the overhand and support for the arms. The print just goes st=
ringy and messy seemingly whatever settings I use (although I haven't tried=
 the default profiles). Watching it print, the arms and 4 corners seemed to=
 be springing upwards a little after the head moved on so I guess this is a=
t the root of the problem.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The only thing that vaguely made a difference was layer=
 cooling time, and then not much. Maybe this is due to poor cooling? I'm us=
ing the stock shroud and very little air gets to the robot due to the small=
 size and gap between the head and fan opening.</div>
<div><div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><br>On Monday, November 12, 2012 9:23:04 PM=
 UTC, Daid wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin=
-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
The robots we print are at 0.1mm. Note that the high-quality profile in Cur=
a should produce the same quality robot, except that it will take longer an=
d it will be stronger. (The robot we print at events is tweaked quite a bit=
 in settings)<div>
<br></div><div>If you don't get a good quality print from the quickprint se=
ttings, then you have a mechanical problem. Usually it's short belt tension=
, it's the nr1 mistake that effects quality. Make sure the short belts are =
thight by unscrewing the X/Y motors a bit, pushing it down, and screwing it=
 down again.<br>
<div><br>On Monday, November 12, 2012 10:05:18 PM UTC+1, njordan311 wrote:<=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So, I was at the MakerFaire in NY th=
is fall and that is where i decided to buy my UltiMaker. The ultimaker at t=
he fair was printing little&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://www.thingiverse.com/thin=
g:11551" target=3D"_blank">Ultimaker Robot with supports</a>&nbsp;at .04mm =
i&nbsp;believe. When printing this robot at home, it seems to come out with=
 the proper layer height, but really messy. Any help?</blockquote>
</div></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
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&nbsp;<br>
There are also forums, which are the official gathering place for Ultimaker=
 operators:<br>
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&nbsp;<br>
If you still want to post to this group, send email to <a>ulti...@googlegro=
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nk">http://groups.google.com/<wbr>group/ultimaker?hl=3Den</a><br>
&nbsp;<br>
For information about the Ultimaker, visit: <a href=3D"http://Ultimaker.com=
" target=3D"_blank">http://Ultimaker.com</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>Kevin Reill=
y<br><br>PhD Candidate<br>Department of Chemical and Biological Engineering=
<br>University of British Columbia<br>P: 604.827.4123&nbsp; &nbsp; C: 604.3=
13.9149<div style=3D"padding:0px;margin-left:0px;margin-top:0px;overflow:hi=
dden;word-wrap:break-word;color:black;font-size:10px;text-align:left;line-h=
eight:130%">
</div><br>
</blockquote></blockquote></div></blockquote>
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