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Taylor Alexander  
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 More options Apr 16 2012, 6:24 pm
From: Taylor Alexander <tlalexan...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012 15:24:13 -0700
Local: Mon, Apr 16 2012 6:24 pm
Subject: Re: Heated bed PCBs

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Jelle Boomstra <je...@protospace.nl> wrote:
> Afaik, Arduino's  'analog out' is actually about 400Hz pwm, but it might
> be that they have corrected that to something sane since. So yes, you would
> need a very big cap to smooth that out. I'm not too sure if they use
> standard arduino analog out or have written a faster replacement.

Eek, yeah that wouldn't do. I'll have to put a scope on things for sure.

> The heater won't be a problem because of the heat capacity in the head, it
> will not fluctuate in temperature 400 times per second...

Well that was never the concern... The question was can a 12v bed safely
run on the Ultimaker at 19v or 24v with PWM at some fraction of 100% to
limit current draw. That would depend on PWM frequency, board inductance
(which I was hoping would be enough but someone said would probably be nil)
and any capacitance added to the system. But I don't think anyone was
worried about temperature changing in 2.5 milliseconds.

> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Joel Chia <j...@revivalstudios.com> wrote:

>> Just curious, running the ultimaker at 24v, wouldn't that adversely
>> affect the heater since it's an 18v cartridge heater (I think I read that
>> somewhere a long time ago)?

>> Also, not sure if it's a design choice or due to board size, but having
>> the sides extend further out so that one can use bulldog clips to hold the
>> glass on (instead of drilling holes in it).

>> In my experience, aluminium beds can warp and become uneven (infact,
>> unless you machine down the face, the aluminium sheet/plate will not be
>> perfectly flat). Glass seems to be flatter at the get go and doesn't seem
>> to develop unevenness after use.

>> Cheers,
>> -Joel

>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2012 at 8:05 AM, Taylor Alexander <tlalexan...@gmail.com>wrote:

>>> Yeah I assume its in the kHz range. I definitely don't know much about
>>> trace inductance so it was an optimistic guess. :)

>>> I do have a scope so I'll check it out both on the input voltage and on
>>> the pwm line and see what happens. It will be nice to really prove out
>>> whether the 12v bed is a safe option for UM users.

>>> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Boman33 <Boma...@vinland.com> wrote:

>>>> I do not know the switching frequency of the Arduino PWM circuit and it
>>>> is important to keep in mind that “high frequency” means something
>>>> different to different people.  Is *high* 1 kHz or 1 MHz?

>>>> Modern switching regulators now run around the MHz range.  At that
>>>> point the switching losses in the FET gets critical and special gate
>>>> drivers are needed to push enough driving current into the gate capacitance
>>>> to make it switch quickly.  I do not see any of that in the UM.  At the kHz
>>>> range, the inductance will be insignificant of the resistive traces so I
>>>> would not count on that.  Note, that the heated bed is actually 4 parallel
>>>> resistors so that further lowers the inductance, even worse, they are
>>>> folded traces so they tend to cancel each other.  That is good though since
>>>> they will radiate less electrical interference compared to a spiral coil.

>>>> If you have an oscilloscope at home, please let us know what you see in
>>>> ripple and PWM duty cycle and frequency.

>>>> Have a great weekend!

>>>> Bertho

>>>> ============================================

>>>> *From:* Taylor Alexander   *Sent:* Friday, April 13, 2012 15:52
>>>> I am assuming its true pwm and not low frequency toggling of the pin.

>>>> If its true pwm then my thinking is that the inductance of the traces
>>>> should be enough to limit current. Everything has inductance and you don't
>>>> instantly get full current. There is a ramp up curve and if you're pwm'ing
>>>> fast enough then you will never reach full current - no capacitor needed. A
>>>> cap won't hurt, of course.

>>>> As far as voltage drop - my power supply voltage will not drop. I have
>>>> a 300w 24v medical power supply lying around from a robotics project. Its a
>>>> very nice supply.

>>>> On Apr 13, 2012 6:46 AM, "Boman33" <Boma...@vinland.com> wrote:

>>>> The capacitor has to be VERY large to average out low frequency
>>>> pulse-width modulation.  If a high frequency pulse-width modulation is used
>>>> together with an averaging inductor and a filtering capacitor, the power
>>>> supply will not see the large peak currents.  On the other hand, as the
>>>> switching frequency goes up, the switching losses in the power FET
>>>> increases and it needs more heat sinking to dissipate the extra heat.

>>>>  As you wrote earlier, no perfect solutions but your higher resistance
>>>> heater PCB matches the 24 V powersupply so much lower currents to worry
>>>> about.

>>>> Bertho

>>>> ========================================

>>>> *From:* Bernhard Kubicek   *Sent:* Friday, April 13, 2012 09:12

>>>> On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Boman33 <Boma...@vinland.com> wrote:

>>>> I am not sure if it is a good idea to run the 12V heater PCB off a 24V
>>>> power supply.  I agree that by pulse-width modulating, it can easily be
>>>> controlled but the 0.8 Ohm listed resistance will pull 30 Amp from the
>>>> powersupply.  So not to exceed the current rating of the powersupply for
>>>> just the heater, a 24V * 30A= 720W power supply would be needed.

>>>>  ==========================================

>>>> Thats also not entirely true, I think. If the PWM frequency is large
>>>> enough, you can buffer with a electrolytic capacitor.
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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>>>> There are also forums, which are the official gathering place for
>>>> Ultimaker operators:
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>>>> If you still want to post to this group, send email to
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>>>> For information about the Ultimaker, visit: http://Ultimaker.com

>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Ultimaker" group.

>>> There are also forums, which are the official gathering place for
>>> Ultimaker operators:
>>> http://forum.ultimaker.com/

>>> If you still want to post to this group, send email to
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>>> For information about the Ultimaker, visit: http://Ultimaker.com

>>  --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Ultimaker" group.

>> There are also forums, which are the official gathering place for
>> Ultimaker operators:
>> http://forum.ultimaker.com/

>> If you still want to post to this group, send email to
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>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>> For more options, visit this group at
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>> For information about the Ultimaker, visit: http://Ultimaker.com

> --
> Met vriendelijke groeten / with kind regards,
> Jelle Boomstra

> ProtoSpace | FabLab Utrecht

> *Make your vision come to life! *

> www.protospace.nl

>  --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Ultimaker" group.

> There are also forums, which are the official gathering place for
> Ultimaker operators:
> http://forum.ultimaker.com/

> If you still want to post to this group, send email to
> ultimaker@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> ultimaker+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/ultimaker?hl=en

> For information about the Ultimaker, visit: http://Ultimaker.com


 
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