I noticed that the 1kg coils i got from Ultimaker have a quite small center. as i progressed using the roll the Filament got a realy heavy spiral tension witch stopped my extruder sometimes. got stronger the nearer to the center of the coil..
is there a solution for "untensioning" filament, like putting in oven and straighten it?
* *I think a month back or so I saw a solution with about 5-6 bearings
that the filament had to zig-zag in between, with the intent to straighten
it. Found it: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:30733 You could in theory modify this to have the rollers made of metal, and the
groove between them stepping down in diameter. That might help to reduce
filament in size if it was not up to spec. No idea if it will actually work
though...
On Mon, Oct 29, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Yvo W. <yvo.waldme...@hyperwerk.ch> wrote:
> I noticed that the 1kg coils i got from Ultimaker have a quite small
> center.
> as i progressed using the roll the Filament got a realy heavy spiral
> tension witch stopped my extruder sometimes.
> got stronger the nearer to the center of the coil..
> is there a solution for "untensioning" filament, like putting in oven and
> straighten it?
> does anybody got experiences how to?
> sincerely
> Yvo W.
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Quick question, paper or plastic spool? We have a bunch of paper spools at UM that are really tight, about 5cm diameter at the center point. Those seem to cause problems with the last meters, but the plastic spools work fine up, even the last bits.
On Monday, October 29, 2012 4:54:39 PM UTC+1, Yvo W. wrote:
> I noticed that the 1kg coils i got from Ultimaker have a quite small > center. > as i progressed using the roll the Filament got a realy heavy spiral > tension witch stopped my extruder sometimes. > got stronger the nearer to the center of the coil..
> is there a solution for "untensioning" filament, like putting in oven and > straighten it?
I've seen the same. My solution is to rather buy from other vendors and put the filament on printed spools like this: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:10219
I've also finally published an UM mounting for this spool, thingy<http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:33461>. The original clip didn't hold up when printed in PLA, and tended to flop around.
On Tuesday, October 30, 2012 2:43:42 PM UTC+1, Jensa wrote:
> I've seen the same. My solution is to rather buy from other vendors and > put the filament on printed spools like this: > http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:10219
I got some big empty Rolls. however i got more problems with Filament that was good at first. I realised that the when i store opened Filament on the big Rolls in my room it starts to get very brittle. And i mean it breaks just by the unwinding from the roll when printing.
also the unchanged pressure from the feeder starts after a while making these very regular internal fractures to the filament. (I used standard uncoloured filament that has this milky transparency) So to me it looks like the filament gets dryed out or overhumidated at my place.
How can i find out whats it in my case? Is there some way i could resoften my otherwise useless rawmaterials? What can i do to prevent this in the first place? i think for an 4h print its okay to take just the needed amount of filament but for longer prints do i need to encapsule the roll in the machine and preheat the filament somehow. building a controlled humidor for my Rolls isnt planned yet.
We identified the problem with the last 10 meters of filament on the paper spools. We arranged that our supplier uses different spools now. We do have a lot of the paper spools used up to the point where they stop working at high speeds. Printing at slow speeds can take a few extra meters of the spool. But the final part does never seem to go trough the bowdentube.
I handed some to the Amersfoort fablab, we're trying to find out how to get those last meters to work. (That fablab is very in to recycling and durability) Cutting it into small strands didn't work. Pulling out out as a long single line makes it spring back to almost the same shape as before. Rolling it around a large bin doesn't work. Rolling it around the bin and heating it up with a paint stripper caused uneven heat.
Rolling it around a large round container and putting it in a 50-70C oven for a few minutes might work. But we didn't get that far to testing yet.
On Thursday, November 1, 2012 7:11:41 PM UTC+1, Yvo W. wrote:
> @ Daid > yes was a Cardboard one.
> I got some big empty Rolls. however i got more problems with Filament that > was good at first. > I realised that the when i store opened Filament on the big Rolls in my > room it starts to get very brittle. > And i mean it breaks just by the unwinding from the roll when printing.
> also the unchanged pressure from the feeder starts after a while making > these very regular internal fractures to the filament. (I used standard > uncoloured filament that has this milky transparency) > So to me it looks like the filament gets dryed out or overhumidated at my > place.
> How can i find out whats it in my case? > Is there some way i could resoften my otherwise useless rawmaterials? > What can i do to prevent this in the first place? > i think for an 4h print its okay to take just the needed amount of > filament but for longer prints do i need to encapsule the roll in the > machine and preheat the filament somehow. > building a controlled humidor for my Rolls isnt planned yet.
i tried to temper a bad coil in the oven. 15min on 50°. it got quite soft so i took it out. but in the end its still very brittle and springs back to the small diameter.
Maybe i have to heat it up more and longer.
Il test that tomorrow.
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As for me, I'm absolutely positive with a slightly bigger and stiffer 4/6 bowden tube<http://betterprinter.blogspot.fr/2012/10/replace-bowden-tube.html>. @Tecnao also confirmed me that his wood filament really slides better with it, while it failed with the stock bowden.
I also start to experience issues with some filament also, so I'm thinking of pre-heating it before it enters the feeder. I don't know if it a stupid idea but I may help also for my big pink filament that is reaching the end of the roll. It start to sticks to itself quite hard (i.e. it no more unwinds itself smoothly, but behave as if it was welding to itself because of long-term pressure may be?)
Now preheating it locally for a very short period may have no effect compared to baking it in an oven for hours :(
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Having a 4/6mm tube for the wood filament is somehow a "must-have", given
that my GRRF laywood filamend exceeds 3.1mm on some spots and the stock
bowden has 3mm inner diameter ;)
Cheers
Flo
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 11:41 AM, Jeremie Francois <
jeremie.franc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As for me, I'm absolutely positive with a slightly bigger and stiffer 4/6
> bowden tube<http://betterprinter.blogspot.fr/2012/10/replace-bowden-tube.html>. @Tecnao
> also confirmed me that his wood filament really slides better with it,
> while it failed with the stock bowden.
> I also start to experience issues with some filament also, so I'm thinking
> of pre-heating it before it enters the feeder. I don't know if it a stupid
> idea but I may help also for my big pink filament that is reaching the end
> of the roll. It start to sticks to itself quite hard (i.e. it no more
> unwinds itself smoothly, but behave as if it was welding to itself because
> of long-term pressure may be?)
> Now preheating it locally for a very short period may have no effect
> compared to baking it in an oven for hours :(
> On Friday, November 2, 2012 9:30:11 AM UTC+1, flouSH wrote:
>> @fluxline: Great thing! Will print that right away!
>> @bill: Already done, see above (thingiverse link by Jelle) :)
>> @all: It could help to replace the original Bowden tube with a 4/6mm one:
>> http://r.ebay.com/of0uke
>> Then you can feed in almost any chuck you have laying around.
>> Cheers
>> Flo
>> On Nov 2, 2012 4:39 AM, "Bill Culverhouse" <bill.cul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What about something like a wire straightener? Pull the filament
>>> through opposing bearings:
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or get yourself a 'drawing iron'. basically just a tapered hole of a
determined size. You pull the wire you wish to reduce through it and it
magically will conform to that diameter. You can make something like that
yourself with less work than to source a new bowden cable.
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 2:40 PM, fluxline <fluxl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks Flo, I just uploaded a new stl for the mounting ... could be a bit
> tight where the rod attaches depending on how fast it is printed.
> On Friday, November 2, 2012 9:30:11 AM UTC+1, flouSH wrote:
>> @fluxline: Great thing! Will print that right away!
>> @bill: Already done, see above (thingiverse link by Jelle) :)
>> @all: It could help to replace the original Bowden tube with a 4/6mm one:
>> http://r.ebay.com/of0uke
>> Then you can feed in almost any chuck you have laying around.
>> Cheers
>> Flo
>> On Nov 2, 2012 4:39 AM, "Bill Culverhouse" <bill.cul...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> What about something like a wire straightener? Pull the filament
>>> through opposing bearings:
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I've a 4/6mm tube, due to having to source one locally and that was the
easiest to get.
Do you find that retraction is more problematic because of it?
I'd not done a heap of printing with the original bowden before I ruined it
so I don't have a lot to compare with, but it certainly seems to me that
there is slack for the filament due to the 4mm, and this means retraction
perhaps has to be set to retract more, faster, to have the same effect?
On 2 November 2012 19:30, Florian Horsch <florianhor...@gmail.com> wrote:
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I'm not sure a larger ID bowden is the answer if you want quality prints. While it does reduce friction and the feeder doesn't need to force it through, it does allow variable diameter filament to pass through the tube and might mess with the feeder calibration. I have no idea how sensitive the calibration is to wider and narrower filament, but I could imagine that for longer prints you might get enough variability that you could see the difference. I've done no testing on this, just a thought I had earlier when people were discussing this solution before. Others with better experiance of the inner workings might have a better idea if this would make any difference.
There is no visible difference between a larger ID and normal ID tube when printing with retraction. (After a few tests) However, with a larger ID tube you can get liquid PLA to form a plug inside of the tube above the teflon. As the tube then is wider then the feflon you can no longer push it trough. We've actually had a plug like this with a large ID tube.
On Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:03:13 AM UTC+1, fluxline wrote:
> I'm not sure a larger ID bowden is the answer if you want quality prints. > While it does reduce friction and the feeder doesn't need to force it > through, it does allow variable diameter filament to pass through the tube > and might mess with the feeder calibration. I have no idea how sensitive > the calibration is to wider and narrower filament, but I could imagine that > for longer prints you might get enough variability that you could see the > difference. I've done no testing on this, just a thought I had earlier > when people were discussing this solution before. Others with better > experiance of the inner workings might have a better idea if this would > make any difference.
> On Friday, November 2, 2012 1:53:11 PM UTC+1, Mr. Rhychtig wrote:
>> interesting. >> maybe i get one of the bigger bowden tubes..
As for me, I always want my bowden tube to allow my filament to pass through, whatever its diameter variability! Otherwise it just means failure to print. Hence the issue is not the bowden tube but the filament, and well, we need to deal with this what we have. Now, thanks Daid for the feedback on retraction issues, as this really could have been an issue (...that I decided to ignore so far!)
By the way, why is there so much variability in the first place? I mean some filaments oscillate between 2.9 to 3.2 mm (come on, a 10% margin?!) How do they manage to make it so bad? Excessive extrusion speed? Bad cooling system? I would like to know how reliable are the homemade filament extruders in comparison.
Does that imply when printing without retraction that there might be issues? Case1: the average filament diameter is less than calibrated resulting in places with under-extrusion and, Case2: the average filament diameter is more than calibrated resulting in pressure and over-extrusion leading to things such as Bowden pops? My main question is how accurate should steps/e be calibrated when there is sometimes filamant varying by %10, even by %5 would mean a steps/e value of plus/minus 25 entered is acceptable ... depending on filament variance.
On Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:49:07 AM UTC+1, Daid wrote:
> There is no visible difference between a larger ID and normal ID tube when > printing with retraction. (After a few tests) > However, with a larger ID tube you can get liquid PLA to form a plug > inside of the tube above the teflon. As the tube then is wider then the > feflon you can no longer push it trough. We've actually had a plug like > this with a large ID tube.
> On Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:03:13 AM UTC+1, fluxline wrote:
>> I'm not sure a larger ID bowden is the answer if you want quality >> prints. While it does reduce friction and the feeder doesn't need to force >> it through, it does allow variable diameter filament to pass through the >> tube and might mess with the feeder calibration. I have no idea how >> sensitive the calibration is to wider and narrower filament, but I could >> imagine that for longer prints you might get enough variability that you >> could see the difference. I've done no testing on this, just a thought I >> had earlier when people were discussing this solution before. Others with >> better experiance of the inner workings might have a better idea if this >> would make any difference.
>> On Friday, November 2, 2012 1:53:11 PM UTC+1, Mr. Rhychtig wrote:
>>> interesting. >>> maybe i get one of the bigger bowden tubes..
@fluxline: That's not related to having retraction activated or not. It's
always the case as you described it (case 1/2). If you want maximum
precision you need super precise filament. There are only two things the
printer knows about your input/output setup: filament diameter and your
esteps number (+ others which are more static. E.g. nozzle diameter).
When you have precise filament you've got one covered, but then depending
on spring tension and print speed (compare to thread: "upgrade to extruder
drive V2 - unexpected results") you get different extrude length when using
different speeds! So if you're going for a certain print at a certain speed
you should measure filament diameter and reconfigure the e-steps number for
a certain speed.
@Daid: Would you confirm these statements from your experience? If yes:
Could we reintroduce your (excellent) e-step calibration routine with a
"extrusion speed option" into Cura as an expert config routine? (I totally
agree that it shouldn't be in the default first-run wizard.)
Sadly enough it would be still a mess: You would need to look-up from a
generated gcode (depending on print speed and layer height) the specific
extrusion speeds and then do an estep test run to get a perfect number for
this speed. Manual insertion of the new number and finally: Print! ...
hm... not very nice.
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 4:17 PM, fluxline <fluxl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Does that imply when printing without retraction that there might be
> issues?
> Case1: the average filament diameter is less than calibrated resulting in
> places with under-extrusion and,
> Case2: the average filament diameter is more than calibrated resulting in
> pressure and over-extrusion leading to things such as Bowden pops?
> My main question is how accurate should steps/e be calibrated when there
> is sometimes filamant varying by %10, even by %5 would mean a steps/e value
> of plus/minus 25 entered is acceptable ... depending on filament variance.
> On Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:49:07 AM UTC+1, Daid wrote:
>> There is no visible difference between a larger ID and normal ID tube
>> when printing with retraction. (After a few tests)
>> However, with a larger ID tube you can get liquid PLA to form a plug
>> inside of the tube above the teflon. As the tube then is wider then the
>> feflon you can no longer push it trough. We've actually had a plug like
>> this with a large ID tube.
>> On Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:03:13 AM UTC+1, fluxline wrote:
>>> I'm not sure a larger ID bowden is the answer if you want quality
>>> prints. While it does reduce friction and the feeder doesn't need to force
>>> it through, it does allow variable diameter filament to pass through the
>>> tube and might mess with the feeder calibration. I have no idea how
>>> sensitive the calibration is to wider and narrower filament, but I could
>>> imagine that for longer prints you might get enough variability that you
>>> could see the difference. I've done no testing on this, just a thought I
>>> had earlier when people were discussing this solution before. Others with
>>> better experiance of the inner workings might have a better idea if this
>>> would make any difference.
>>> On Friday, November 2, 2012 1:53:11 PM UTC+1, Mr. Rhychtig wrote:
>>>> interesting.
>>>> maybe i get one of the bigger bowden tubes..
>>> --
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From my first understanding of how it works, I always wanted to - add a load cell sensor to measure and regulate the filament pressure, - or add an optical mouse movement sensor to regulate the filament speed Both would be better to set an appropriate feedrate, surely better than to predefine steps/E that will necessarily fail with variable sized filament...
A load cell will generate a lot of calculation/approximation you don't want
or need. If you don't care (too much) about the pressure,then filament in
== filament out. You could measure that more precise with a mouse sensor on
the head, as that removes one variable (compression/extension in the bowden
tube) but you get back two problems: you need a model to compensate for
said spring effects with input from temperature, speed & filament, and you
need to rewrite the E driver to include this sensor feedback into the
signal. In all the output will be better, but thus far nobody has thought
it worth it and written code for such a setup.
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 6:31 PM, Jeremie Francois <jeremie.franc...@gmail.com
> wrote:
> From my first understanding of how it works, I always wanted to
> - add a load cell sensor to measure and regulate the filament pressure,
> - or add an optical mouse movement sensor to regulate the filament speed
> Both would be better to set an appropriate feedrate, surely better than to
> predefine steps/E that will necessarily fail with variable sized filament...
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Unfortunately I think it is difficult to get an accurate measurement of
steps/mm for several reasons.
It gives a false impression of accuracy with the steps being listed to 6
digits= 1ppm. The typical measurement accuracy of a 100mm test piece is
probably +/-1mm= 1%.
I had to use a very carefully designed fixture to get 0.1mm repeatability.
There is also the issue with extrusion speed, which is not difficult to
measure at different speeds, but in real life the required extrusion force
is also varying vs. extruder temperature. Further, extruding a short piece
as a test is different from continuously extruding since the thermal
gradients change in the extruder.
All these effects points out that we ought to have some simple and quick
test object that would show if too much or too little is being extruded.
Bertho
From: Florian Horsch Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2012 12:17
@fluxline: That's not related to having retraction activated or not. It's
always the case as you described it (case 1/2). If you want maximum
precision you need super precise filament. There are only two things the
printer knows about your input/output setup: filament diameter and your
esteps number (+ others which are more static. E.g. nozzle diameter).
When you have precise filament you've got one covered, but then depending on
spring tension and print speed (compare to thread: "upgrade to extruder
drive V2 - unexpected results") you get different extrude length when using
different speeds! So if you're going for a certain print at a certain speed
you should measure filament diameter and reconfigure the e-steps number for
a certain speed.
@Daid: Would you confirm these statements from your experience? If yes:
Could we reintroduce your (excellent) e-step calibration routine with a
"extrusion speed option" into Cura as an expert config routine? (I totally
agree that it shouldn't be in the default first-run wizard.)
Sadly enough it would be still a mess: You would need to look-up from a
generated gcode (depending on print speed and layer height) the specific
extrusion speeds and then do an estep test run to get a perfect number for
this speed. Manual insertion of the new number and finally: Print! ... hm...
not very nice.
On Sun, Nov 4, 2012 at 4:17 PM, fluxline <fluxl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Does that imply when printing without retraction that there might be issues?
Case1: the average filament diameter is less than calibrated resulting in
places with under-extrusion and,
Case2: the average filament diameter is more than calibrated resulting in
pressure and over-extrusion leading to things such as Bowden pops?
My main question is how accurate should steps/e be calibrated when there is
sometimes filamant varying by %10, even by %5 would mean a steps/e value of
plus/minus 25 entered is acceptable ... depending on filament variance.
On Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:49:07 AM UTC+1, Daid wrote:
There is no visible difference between a larger ID and normal ID tube when
printing with retraction. (After a few tests)
However, with a larger ID tube you can get liquid PLA to form a plug inside
of the tube above the teflon. As the tube then is wider then the feflon you
can no longer push it trough. We've actually had a plug like this with a
large ID tube.
On Sunday, November 4, 2012 10:03:13 AM UTC+1, fluxline wrote:
I'm not sure a larger ID bowden is the answer if you want quality prints.
While it does reduce friction and the feeder doesn't need to force it
through, it does allow variable diameter filament to pass through the tube
and might mess with the feeder calibration. I have no idea how sensitive
the calibration is to wider and narrower filament, but I could imagine that
for longer prints you might get enough variability that you could see the
difference. I've done no testing on this, just a thought I had earlier when
people were discussing this solution before. Others with better experiance
of the inner workings might have a better idea if this would make any
difference.
