Troubled Vizsla - split personality?

[Londonfieldsboys]

I am so reluctant to make this post but I can't deny my boy the
possibility that someone here might see something in what he is
presenting that sounds familiar.

We all love our breed and even though I'm delighted (Well done Radar!
and sorry for your troubles too!) to read here about Viz becoming PAT
dogs (which was one of my original aspirations when I got a Viz) it
kind of made me feel extremely envious and alone with my 'problem' dog
who often doesn't seem to display the wonderful Viz temperament (how
did fearless ever get into the Viz breed description???). I'm curious
too about whether as a group (or is it just me) we can't accept that
Vizslak too can show signs of 'aggression' or fear based aggression,
that a Viz is capable of attacking a GSD even? On another list a very
unhelpful woman who owned and bred Vizslak told me, rather
unhelpfully, that a viz presenting a temperament such as I'd described
wasn't really a Viz at all! What do I do about that then? Euthanise
him? I worry that as long as we think our dogs are exempt from this
'normal' dog behaviour then they will be grossly misunderstood. I just
wanted to mention this observation as I think it's important, I often
don't want to come forward with temperament 'problems' for fear of
tainting the perfect image of our beloved ginger ones. I believe my
Hamish is troubled and something has made him lose his Vizsla mojo but
it is still in there waiting to come out and I'm determined to help
him find it again.

Hamish is three next week and now mostly a superstar in the park. I am
proud of his level of obedience - it's not perfect but we've worked
very hard and come a long way.

Indoors or in remote places however is another story....

Hamish now won't let a stranger into our house - rushes at people with
a rageful display of aggressive barking - no kidding around he appears
to mean business. We have a new lodger whom he seems to love one
minute and then charges at him if he a)enters a room b) leaves a room
c) moves while standing up in a room especially if he turns his back
on him.

Hamish started doing the same in pubs, cafés and anywhere enclosed
really but this has improved with vigilant management (i.e. you still
can't relax for a second). Left to his devices he would bark
aggressively at a waitress or anyone who approaches our table. He
barked and charged at people who came round a corner on a remote beach
in Devon this summer and at some horrified people who approached from
the opposite direction on a country lane after walking alone for a
couple of hours.

I posted on a well known clicker site to ask for training advice only
to be told 'get this dog on meds now!!!' and that he had GAD
(Generalised Anxiety Disorder to you and me) but after looking into
that with a behaviourist and holitistic Vet we have tried Homeopathy
(worked wonders for the firework season) but that isn't working for
this problem. We initially thought he might have had a neurological
disorder but behaviourist ruled that out very quickly and she thought
he was barking because of fear and not coping.

I've contacted a known dog aggression specialist in Somerset called
Angela Stockdale and I'm in line for an appointment. I've also
contacted a specialist at a dog shelter who works with 'difficult' to
rehome dogs and I've contacted a Tellington Touch practitioner and
who's also a rehab dog specialist.

I don't know what else to do? My fear is that he'll bite someone
before this gets sorted. Whilst buying a coffee at Waterloo on the way
to the last Viz Whizz a man tried to stroke him while I was in the
queue and he got severely told off (by Hamish).

I think I have a fairly decent knowledge of training and behaviour but
this one's beyond me it seems...apart from that it's just so random
and emotive for us all. My partner has been asking if there's anyone
we can send him to for a while to recuperate but I think that's
wishful thinking. Part of the anxiety is that no-one seems to really
be able to get to the bottom of it, just give a few management
exercises that aren't really dealing with the core issue.

I am hoping the 'experts' will come up with something and I'll leave
no stone unturned but in the meantime I'd be glad of any insights this
group may have for us right now.

best regards,
Ross

[Anna Nussey]

Hi Ross,

Please don't feel alone. Just look at Ziggi and you will see almost identical behaviour. I read your posts on the Clickersolutions site with interest. I think firstly that this behaviour is very genetic (same breeder with very inbred lines) so for a start I think acceptance that he is never going to be perfect is the start. 

I may be unpopular saying this but I feel that you need to stop taking Hamish to all of these places where he is reacting. It isn't going to help his rehabilitation at all. Only keep his stress levels at a high which means any behavioural modification you try and do will fall away as learning is inhibited when an animal (or human) is experiencing stress.

I don't disagree with the use of medication and had Ziggi not got to the point she is I would definitely consider it with her. It has made Pesto's quality of life 100x better. It gives you a foot in the door for behaviour modification and helps you to get a better result. 

I have gone through all the emotions you are feeling at this moment in time (feel free to email me at any point for support) so know how you are feeling and it is horrible. I have felt ashamed, guilty, depressed, embaressed, like a failure and everything inbetween.

My tips for getting you through:

1. Make a point of writing down 1 good thing about Hamish's behaviour a day - this will stop you always focussing on the negatives.

2. Never use punishment with him - it won't work or help - even a 'no' can be too much with a dog who is fear aggressive.

3. Clicker train tricks - I know you use clicker now but tricks help build fun into your relationship and the cue to perform a trick can really help calm dogs like ours as they remind the brain of the emotional context in which they were trained.

4. Train a hand target behaviour and reward it with very high value rewards EVERY time - this has been Ziggi's most used behaviour - I can get her past kids, dogs, cats, scary people just using a hand target so she doesn't notice the environment. Practice this outside scary environments as well so it doesn't get associated with seeing a fear provoking stimulus.

5. Always have high value treats on you - just to get your through a bad situation.

6. Use classical conditioning to your advantage - think pavlov dogs - if you can work out his triggers shovel food into him when he sees the trigger and stop immediately when the trigger goes away - therefore for Hamish a previously scary thing = food therefore becomes not scary and a cue for open bar of food.

7. This is the hardest thing for an owner but very useful for our dogs and may be something you are not willing to do but ... get a muzzle (baskerville type) or at the least a headcollar. This provides a visual cue to people that your dog is not all friendly - they stay away and really aids your training as you can work with Hamish without the worry that people will approach. It also helps you relax (and therefore will go down the lead to Hamish) which only benefits the process.

8. Accept he isn't going to be perfect.

Think that is everything for now but if I think of anything else I will let you know. Ask any questions you like (and anyone else) as I am always very open about Ziggi's behaviour.

Anna

[SALLY ROWLES]

Hi   I don't post at all on this site just read but felt I have to give you support on this - as I am seeing so many emails on aggression in Vizsla I have a old V  Jacob 13yrs who has never shown any aggression and also my other one I lost 2yrs ago show no sign - but my friend has two 7 yr olds who I don't feel I could trust 100% to be around -  Jacob is also VERY scared of them Anyway enough of me just wanted to show my support and hope you can find a way to improve Hamish confidents.   From a PET owner not an Expert !! Sally --- On Fri, 13/11/09, Londonfieldsboys <ROS...@sky.com> wrote:

[Strassenbahnhaltestelle]

hi Ross, i want to offer you the little support i can - just today i
met two weimeraner owners who spoke of Hamish as "oh, that well
trained dog that makes everyone look like a bad owner"...Hamish is the
outstanding member of east London, for most part. one only needs
whisper a command and he does it. I have witnessed only a few bark-i-
sodes, it is strange, as he takes amazing to some but not others.
Anna, the problem with relaxation is that Hamish does the baring in
the home, though of course i have never seen it as he knows me. Hamish
is such a gentle soul, and i fear to think that maybe Anna is right,
that maybe it has something to do with his background/genetics. And i
encourage Anna's thoughts of writing down one good thing a day, for
there are many. People at my place love him, even Tristan who is
terrified of dogs gets on perfectly with Hamish, Ruth only ever met
him this once and he was like a lamb with her, eating treats, showing
her tricks, obeying every command, snoring loud...... Why is he ok
with some people but not others? He was so well socialised, and had so
many positive experiences, and is so much fun walking with for he is
so attentive. maybe too attentive? i really am at my wits end apart
from saying i really very much love Hamish, and Vigo does, too, and
our cat also who now trusts him enough to sleep curled up next to him!
i hope you find someone who knows what is happening with him, and who
can help you and him to get through this, for he is so worth it and
you will have learnt so much.

xxx

Andrea

[Chrissie Diron]

Hi Ross

I do have to echo Anna's idea of finding really positive things to list about Hamish. It's very easy to get bogged down by the "bad stuff" and forget how many redeeming features there are to enjoy and be proud of. I'm not trying to downplay the challenge or stress in any way - I know this is worrying you sick and that's one reason why you need to get distance and perspective. It's very hard when you are close to the subject and desperate for a breakthrough. So although it may feel forced and trivial, make a habit of really finding that bit of sunshine every day, something that you really are glad for in Hamish and then focus on how lovely it is. It will change your feelings and you must believe that Hamish is very in tune with your feelings and therefore able to benefit from this. If you are struggling to find another positive thing to list, then just recall a time when things were great and really happy with you and Hamish and visualise that. Go back to that memory and relive it! Pick whatever event or activity made your heart sing and write it down, or if you have a picture of the day/moment, stick it on your fridge and go stare at it. Get right into that and smile and then go hug Hamish and talk it through with him - he will feel your elation, your shift in focus and that can only be good. That is now your target: you want to go there again and again and again. You will always attract what you focus on most, so make sure you focus on the best, the happiest, the most satisfying outcomes - don't let that negativity creep in, fill you with gloom, for that's where you'll go, OK?

Another useful exercise might be to try and find a common thread to all the weird barking incidents. They seem random and unpredictable on the surface, but there is likely a common theme. Something triggers this, the tricky bit is to discover what ... speed of movement, loudness of person, lighting conditions, background noises, time of day ... see if you can find any common denominators, as they may well help you fathom what goes on in his doggy mind. I don't think he's wired wrong or inherently unstable, I think he's a very sensitive soul and something deeply disturbs him. When he's in that "place" he knows no other way to deal with it other than to lash out. There are a couple of things that can help here: in the interim the behaviour response needs modifying (even if it's not ideal, getting him to turn to run behind your legs in those moments would be better than lunging forward for example) and then the triggering stimuli can hopefully be identified and subsequently addressed to diminish them. Sounds so easy and is likely a slow process. It can be done though. Believe it, success depends on your focus on a positive outcome!

I tend to agree that you should use whatever tools are necessary right now to protect Hamish from taking the behaviour a step further. A muzzle may be in order (properly sized and fitted, it's not that terrible and you can make him think it's cool and fun). If you don't want a muzzle, then at least use a head collar. Many years ago Vizsla friends of ours from Germany were visiting us in the UK and they told us that their Vizsla boy, who was quite large, had to be muzzled in public (German law requires it over a certain size of dog). They too were against muzzling (this dog was a trained SAR dog!) and so I showed them a rather spiffy head halter that they just loved! The company was new back then and only offered a leather version, but it looked just like a horse halter and we ordered one and my goodness, was it a handsome piece of kit. They said that most people perceive head collars to be muzzles and respect them as such (keep away), so to this day he wears his halter in public and all are happy. Consider this as a temporary means to control the situation, manage stress levels (I have used Kumfi dogalters on my boys in the past to stop them pulling and the overall effect on them is one of calm submissiveness with it on) and then work through the situation. The beautiful halters I am talking about now come in a wide range of materials and colours etc, but are essentially the same quality item. Find them here: www.dogmatic.org.uk

Angela Stockdale: YES! Very good. I hope you can get to see her soon. I have heard only good things.

Homeopathy: understand this - one remedy does not work for all situations. You clearly had a "hit" on the firework response, which is great. But that remedy is likely not indicated for the different picture presented by Hamish under these other circumstances. You could work through remedies in a trial and error fashion, or you can focus hard on finding those subtle triggers and getting a better picture of what's going on and then you go back to the homeopathics and find the right remedy for the real problem you are facing. Bach flowers and Australian Bush Flower Essences work on a more "emotional" level and a good practitioner will be able to piece together the appropriate essences for a variety of scenarios. As combination remedies they are very good. I think homeopathics are best as single remedies and then you have to change often, as symptoms unfold, i.e. as you peel back the layers of the onion!

A tip for getting inside Mr H's head: animal communicator. A good one really can give you much help. I think you and Hamish have a very strong bond and therefore psychic link and whilst your emotions etc are clouding your ability to really get into his thoughts, a communicator can facilitate this and that might just give you the insight you seek. This can be done remotely and I can recommend someone if you are interested. I have been utterly amazed at how much information can be gleaned this way and this can be the missing link to the puzzle. For instance, a friend of ours was also experiencing ongoing problems with her rescue dog, a Rottweiler, and even the holistic vet was flummoxed. The communicator was able to establish that the dog was afraid of the dark, so never leaving the dog entirely in the dark had a profound effect on her stress levels. She also said that the dog couldn't see properly out of her right eye and therefore startled at people appearing or hovering over her from that side (the dog had a history of snapping sometimes, but not others). Sure enough, the eye was then properly investigated and there was damage to it, limiting her peripheral vision on that side. The owner learned to never approach from that side and warned vets and other people of this, ensuring they made their presence known from the left. That snapping behaviour went away as a result. There were a couple other things the communicator told the owner about the dog's previous home and life, which the owner then followed up on and sure enough, they were true! All this from a lady who had never seen this dog. Whether you want to believe it or not, it can be done and as a "diagnostic tool" it can be invaluable. 

Now read Andrea's lovely post again and SMILE at the many people who think that Hamish is great. You will conquer this thing and find that peace, I am sure of it.

From Chrissie and the Vitali Vizslas

DON'T SWEAT THE PETTY THINGS AND DON'T PET THE SWEATY THINGS!

www.vitalk9.ca
www.canine-health-concern.org.uk
www.aunaturelk9s.org

[Londonfieldsboys]

Hello Anna, Sally, Andrea, Chrissie and Suzie,
Your words have been very wise and have helped me to take a step back
from overwhelm already. I have to take Mr. Charming for a walk now
(that's the very good bit as we love our walks and he is almost an
angel in the outdoors). I'm going to start a notebook with all your
suggestions and to keep note of some training progress. I will try to
adhere to Karen Overall's protocol for relaxation which was suggested
to me a while ago on Clickersolutions but I didn't get around to it.
We have quite busy lives and EVERYTHING has to be organised around H
as he also has separtation anxiety.

Anna I was wondering if when you are in London you would like to meet
up for a walk? And Suzie (not necessarily the same walk). I'd like
that.

I want to answer you all in more detail and I have some questions but
now I must say thank you so very much and continue later on - Hamish's
fans are waiting in the park.

love to you all,
Ross x

is this the briefest message I've ever posted?

[Ros Leighton]

Oh, WHAT a great post Anna!

 

Ross, I think you are so very ‘on the mark’ in the first part of your message – we must accept that Vizslas are dogs and can have all the same issues of other dogs... all sorts of things impact on their behavioural responses, other than breed traits.

 

The only other thing I’d add is.. that some of this could just as easily be ‘resource guarding’ aggression as it could be ‘fear aggression’... I’m not an expert and I couldn’t advise someone in a situation I can not physically see. But perhaps you’d be able to consider this alternative as well as fear?

 

Other things to consider....

Has it altered in any way since you’ve chemically castrated him? perhaps if it is fear based, it may have been exacerbated? (these are all basically rhetorical questions but ones that might trigger something for you?)

 

And I also think that the most important thing mentioned has been by Anna – don’t allow him to be in a position of ‘practising’ the behaviour/emotions if at all possible.

 

And as Andrea says, he does manage so many situations brilliantly, and when I met him he was a beautifully mannered handsome dog, you have every reason to be extremely proud of... don’t let this hiccup overwhelm that...

 

 

And I LOVE Anna’s suggestion of trick training. I used tricks for a long time to help me ‘cross over’ from more traditional training methods to positive reinforcement based training – because of the fact that I had no ‘hang ups’ with a trick... it was always fun, always rewarding, and always a happy training session... and Anna’s right – the context of the training moves on through the behaviour.

 

 

Good luck, he’s not a bad boy, he’s a confused boy and you’ll help him to get through this, simply because you care enough.

 

Good job Ross.

 

Ros

[lyndylou]

Hi Ross,
Anytime you are close to Epping Forest, just get in touch. Bodi and I
would love to meet up for a walk!!

Lynn

[suer]

Hi Ross,

Sorry to hear of your problems, you are not alone we have a beautiful
Viz who really dislikes other dogs especially puppies.

He loves people but most of the people we meet also have dogs, we have
learn't to manage the situation with help of a dog behaviourist and
the use of a Dogmatic headcollar and a baskerville muzzle when he is
off the lead.

I might add the few breeders we spoke to about the problem also
implied that the problem was unheard of, which was really helpfull!
and made us feel completely useless. Although Rufus was the first Viz
we owned, we are experienced dog owners, having owned and trained the
dreaded GSD's to show obedience levels back inthe 70's & 80's.

Rufus is well trained having reached the Gold Good Citzen Dog Scheme,
and his problems started when he was about 2 years of age with the
occassional grumble to any dog coming within his personal space to now
where he needs to be watched around most dogs.

He is Ok if the other dogs are under control (on a lead) and not
racing around, he is not kept away from other dogs as we feel he needs
to realise that whilst he might not like other dogs he must tolerate
them.

He competes in agility and seems to love it, he behaves at the
competition and I just ask for a bit more space in the queue, which
fellow agility competitors are always willing to give.

We would love to take him on group walks but I don't think it would be
fun for any of us.

Good luck.

Regards

Sue

[Radar Red Dog]

Hi Ross

I'm no expert but all the advice you received so far has seemed really
useful & positive. I particularly love the "positive angle"...go on,
have a re-read of Hamish's Blog -it's fantastic!! I've never met
Hamish but I read his Blog avidly - that & everything I've heard about
him is good. You're a brilliant, caring, loving "Dad"...keep doing
what you're doing & the occasional hiccup will be overcome.

Finally, don't forget that you're not alone - we all have issues with
our beloved red boys & girls but we have this group to help & support
us.

Juliet xx

PS Radar sends you a big lick & lean!!

On Nov 14, 10:34 am, Londonfieldsboys <ROS...@sky.com> wrote:

[Londonfieldsboys]

Thank you so much everyone, we've had a much better day today and
mostly because you all helped cheer me up. I've been really enjoying
the day with Hamish despite the horrible weather, I don't get to spend
many whole days with him as I'm not his primary carer at the moment -
at least he doesn't have to travel on public transport (he's so much
better with that now by the way Anna and it was hand targetting that
finally got him to play instead of shaking at bus stops) with me and
stay in my office all day, which he can find stressful. We played lots
of games indoors and I started to do Karen Pryor's 101 things to do
with a box - I forgot how much I love the look on his face when he's
trying to second guess what to do to make me give the magic 'click'.

Question - I know we all agree to remove him as much as possible from
things that stress him but there are of course things which I can't
reasonably control - i.e. we do need a lodger at the moment to make
ends meet. So...rather than keep him locked up in the bedroom what
I've been doing is allowing him to greet the lodger with a toy (this
seems to be a very happy event with an abundance of wiggles and
general Vizsla mojo). Then as I've identified the problem as a result
of any sudden movement, especially when Hamish is extremely relaxed or
asleep I have been keeping him on a down stay on a loose leash
stepping on it for an anchor just in case, then as Hamish looks
towards the person I IMMEDIATELY click and treat him BEFORE any
arousal has happened and continue like this in RAPID succession as the
person stands up and/or exits/enters the room. It is working in the
sense that he isn't getting the chance to practice, but who knows if
it is changing his perception and making him feel any less
threatened??? I don't let the sessions go on too long and after a
while of 100% success I remove him to the bedroom and stay with him
for a while reading etc. What do you think Anna? Is this a good way
forward?

Funnily enough yesterday morning I found myself in 'Pets at Home' and
I was looking at muzzles, I didn't buy one as I didn't know which type
was best, so now I know I'll get a 'baskerville' online.

I was very interested in your suggestion Ros that this could be
'resource guarding' as this was my initial idea. He is VERY clingy
with us and as you might remember sleeps in the bed. I have been
prepared to put a stop to this if it was part of the problem but two
of the trainers and one behaviourist have said it isn't part of the
problem as long as I can get him on and off easily on command - which
I can. The behaviourist (who used to be a trainer at Canine Partners)
said she thought is was fear based and I was missing his signs of
stress (calming signals) which he must have been displaying before a
bark-i-sode (thanks Andrea, I love that phrase). I actually disagree,
because on close scrutiny, and I have watched him closely, he doesn't
seem at all upset or nervous before a bark-i-sode, in fact we had
guests this evening (one of whom he had never seen before) and as in
between me clicking and treating him he was very happily chewing on a
bone, seemingly oblivious to everyone around him. If I catch him in
time it is SO easy to distract him with treats, in fact he does seem
confused and might even look at me as if to say am I doing the right
thing 'dad' and in other situations when Hamish IS genuinely stressed,
upset or nervous, or even angry he will NOT, emphatically NOT accept a
treat. Food is the first thing that he loses interest in if he's not a
happy chap. I suppose in saying this I'm realising that his commitment
to his position shouldn't be too difficult to dislodge, I just need to
get the message across that there's noting to worry about.

I'm not sure about the genetic side of things although I'm not ruling
it out and I'm very angry with H's breeder on other accounts so I'm
definitely not defending her. However, I did meet all her dogs and I
even went back with Andrea and Lasse when they were looking around for
a new pup and not one dog barked at us - in fact they were
exceptionally sweet natured and very affectionate. H's mum was a
nervous wreck though but this was explained by her having been
recently run over after the breeder's mum had died and the dog ran off
on to the nearest main road. Apparently she was the mum's favourite
and the dog took her death very badly and was extremely disorientated.

I'm not ruling out seeing an animal communicator as I do try to keep
an open mind but I think I'll try Angela Stockdale first Chrissie.
Your words of support did bring a tear to my eye as I felt a release
of some build up of internal pressure by all your kind words of
support and finally I didn't feel so all alone and remembered how
lucky I am to have this beautiful and intelligent creature in my life.
They are such emotionally sophisticated dogs but then maybe that's dog
in general and they are the only breed I know so intimately so I've
got no experience to compare with.

thanks again, it's bed time now.
warm regards to all,
Ross xxx

p.s. Lindy Lou, I hope to come to Epping Forest really soon, it's our
favourite walk at the moment, hopefully with Vigo, what is your email
address?

[Anna Nussey]

Hi Ross,

Sounds like your training with the lodger is going very well. If you want you can incorporate classical conditioning. So lodger enters - food galore - lodger leaves - food disappears. If the lodger is happy to could you get him involved in some training sessions. You click and he chucks the treats? Not sure if Hamish is ready for this step but could be useful in the future.

I would love to go for a walk with you when I am next in London. Should be around Christmas time although I may venture back for a random weekend! I will let you know of anytimes when I am back and see if it is a good time for you.

Keep up the good work and please let us know how you are doing.

oooh and who is the ex canine partners trainer :)

Anna

P.S glad he likes hand targeting.

[Londonfieldsboys]

Hi Anna,
Nina Bondarenko is the Behaviourist from Canine Partners see:
www.ninabondarenko.co.uk

She uses, amongst other things, a technique she calls 'homing signals'
which I've found is very close to SATS: Bridge and Targetting training
system (see: www.syalia.com). Have you ever heard of this before, I'm
very keen to learn more about it. Apparently they use it at the
Woodgreen Animal Shelter. Are you working for Canine Partners yet?

I feel we're all just getting to know the lodger and Steven thinks he
will move out soon if H doesn't stop barking, I wouldn't blame him but
I'm going to try my best to make sure there are no further episodes
(should say bark-i-sodes). I think he's being extremely patient and
understanding so far and I would hope that soon I can ask him to help
me with clicking and treating - I've already been doing it in front of
him and he was very curious as to how it all worked, so who knows
maybe soon he'll be a convert to the clicker himself.

Looking forward to hearing from you.
Ross x

[Chrissie Diron]

I know Nina! Used to live near Petersfield and when I only had Pash, I also looked into CPI training and becoming a puppy walker. Life intervened and I moved away, so that was the end of that, but I do remember Nina and their training techniques (I still use Kumfi collars and the 3-in-1 leads that I saw at those sessions for the very first time!). That must have been some 12 years ago - amazing. Anyhow, if you have access to Nina Ross, you may well find she can help. I think you have the right idea and I know you have the commitment. Good to hear your day has been a better one - sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees eh? Glad that you found the clearing - now back to bushwhacking ;-) 

[Ros Leighton]

Aha - an Aussie! ;-)

I went to presentations by Nina at an Australian APDT conference some time
ago. She's excellent Ross.

I also went to a presentation by Kayce Cover which I also found interesting,
but it was very basic presentation and sometimes not quite clear what she
was on about...

I have the book, but it's been on long term loan to someone.. however, I
might just chase that up now that you've reminded me.

Cheers
Ros

-----Original Message-----
From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Londonfieldsboys
Sent: Sunday, 15 November 2009 10:31 AM
To: ukvizsla
Subject: Re: Troubled Vizsla - split personality?

[Ros Leighton]

Ross said...............

They are such emotionally sophisticated dogs but then maybe that's dog
in general and they are the only breed I know so intimately so I've
got no experience to compare with.

..........

Ross, I guess my point about Vizslas being dogs is that the laws of learning
apply to all dogs. Operant and classical conditioning are universal to all
of us - dogs, people, whatever. I don't think that Vizslas are necessarily
like all other dogs emotionally or intelligence capabilities, but I do
believe that they learn the same way...

I'm interested that you also thought it might be resource guarding...

Cheers
Ros

[Chrissie Diron]

Do I take it that Ross is the "resource"? The behaviour fits, as in I've seen dogs suddenly fly off barking most angrily at other dogs that dare to come within x feet of a treasured object that is being guarded. They tend to have these wild outbursts, then rush back to the "thing" and they can be quite conflicted in their body language because they might stand or cower there, trembling and seemingly threatened, yet in the next moment they might fly back towards the intruding party and put on another very noisy and aggressive display. If Hamish thinks that Ross is vulnerable at the times he "explodes" that might explain some of this. Some dogs are very tuned into our emotions. Certainly if I am getting in any way upset, my dogs (especially Cirrus) can detect it very early on and often show concern. 

[Ros Leighton]

Yes Chrissie, I was considering Ross the resource. I’ve seen some dogs do this, and it seemed to fit the description to me...

 

Cheers

Ros

 

From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chrissie Diron
Sent: Sunday, 15 November 2009 12:56 PM
To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Troubled Vizsla - split personality?

 

Do I take it that Ross is the "resource"? .....

[Anna Nussey]

Hey Ross,

Yes I am working at canine partners :) Loving every minute of it :)

On the homing signals - I personally don't like them or use them! Lots do at canine partners as they used to work with Nina. I found there is too much noise going on during training. I also believe the use of them means that you are lumping or rushing the training and that the dog doesn't actually understand what is required. I prefer to break down the behaviour into smaller parts until the dog happily does the whole behaviour with just the cue at the beginning and click+treat at the end. Does that make sense? I also find that if a dog is taught using homing signals they are very difficult to get rid of once the full behaviour has been learnt. An example - we teach dogs to tug on ball+ropes to open doors for people. The homing signal (x,x,x,x,x) is used to tell the dog to keep tugging (as some doors can be hard to open) so it sounds like this: 'tug tug' - 'x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x' - click - treat. Whilst I just get rid of the 'x,x,x,x,x' because the dogs I have taught are confident they are doing the correct thing. Another reason why personally I dislike homing signals is that they send my clicker timing up the creak! I can't concentrate on giving homing signals and then marking the correct finished product.

The above is just my personal opinion and some people like them and others don't.

All the best

Anna

[lyndylou]

Hi Ross,
My e-mail address is lyndy...@hotmail.co.uk.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Lynn

[Londonfieldsboys]

Hi Anna,
I'm so glad you are enjoying Canine partners, I can see how that would
be the dream job for you. Actually, I would love to do something like
that too as I've seriously got the dog training bug now. However,
that's another story.

Nina taught me the homing signals to use a bit like the 'look at that'
game. Scary person approaches in café and Hamish notices begin
'x,x,x,x,x,x,x' before he gets aroused. Hamish 'copes' as the scary
person approaches continue 'x,x,x,x,x' as Hamish looks at me a big
marker of 'Xcellent' followed by a treat and lots of praise. I often
mark the end point with a simultaneous 'click' as well as the word
'excellent' and Nina says this is fine. In saying that Hamish is much
more used to the significance of the clicker and is much more
conditioned to work for clicks rather than xxxxxx's. I think over time
the xxxxx's could become equally engrained but for now actually a
continuous stream of clicks and treats when the scary thing is
approaching is much more reliable and effective. I'm waiting on the
book arriving from America and only know the basics at present but I
was very interested in how it seems to work in conjunction with visits
to the vet for example. There are some videos on youtube of this. I
don't know enough about it but as Nina explained the point of it is to
give the dog more information than is possible with a clicker in a
continuous stream to let them know they are doing the correct
behaviour, so I don't understand how the dog doesn't actually
understand what is required. Maybe you could explain that point a bit
more for me? By difficult to get rid of do you mean the 'x,x,x,x,x' is
more difficult to phase out once the behaviour is learned that it is
to phase out the clicker?

It's all so fascinating isn't it.

What do you think Anna about H's behaviour perhaps being resource
guarding. I know you haven't seen him for a while but I'm curious to
know if you think the method to alter his behaviour and perception
would be any different whether we approach it as fear based aggression
of resource guarding?

p.s. Chrissie and Ros - isn't the dog world getting smaller as we
discover all these connections!

[Chrissie Diron]

Hi Ross

It is indeed very fascinating stuff and I love it too! Fortunately I am in a position to do more with it all and incorporate it in my life/work. Which SATS book are you waiting for? I ordered the basic one online and downloaded it. I have been trying to incorporate the new bridge idea or homing signals as Anna refers to them. I have dogs that are very clicker focussed and a bit too treat focussed - I am hoping that we can get to the point where the bridging sounds help far more and the extra confidence that gives alleviates the need for constant treating. It is a problem of mine at trials, as Shandy's confidence drops when the treats aren't forthcoming and she starts to try alternative behaviours or gets stressed and sniffs. Next week we have rallyO trials, which is a very upbeat type of obedience and we can speak to the dogs to keep them happy. I will be using my xxxx (I actually don't say that, because as many have noticed, it can sound like sex, sex, sex to others!) to confirm to Shandy that she's on the right track, stick with me, nearly done and she always gets to run to the goody bag at the very end anyhow, to collect her "big reward". Certainly my girls are getting the hang of it. I tried some object discrimination games last week and using the bridge as a sort of "you're getting warmer" indicator helped hugely. They got the items pegged very quickly. Without it I would have had to break down the increments much more. With it I could allow them to sniff the wrong item, but not say a thing, and as they turned towards the right item, I would begin the bridge. Very quickly they realised that this was the signal and confidently carried on, with a big click finale upon arrival. It was a hoot. We all enjoyed it very much. Had I have clicked when they just turned to the right thing, the exercise would have finished there and we would have had to start again. It allowed me to string more actions and move forward faster. 

[Anna Nussey]

Hi Ross,

>> I don't understand how the dog doesn't actually
understand what is required. Maybe you could explain that point a bit
more for me?<<

From seeing dogs at work the ones trained using homing signals are unable to complete the task without them. Therefore they don't have the full comprehension of the task. So I will keep using the same example - tugging on the door. To them it seems like 'tug tug' means to head towards the ball on the rope and put their mouth on it and move back till the rope is taught. The 'x' then seems to cue pull harder, 'x' again = pull harder still. With these dogs if you don't use 'x,x,x,x,x' they stop performing the behaviour at the point where they pull back only slightly. Therefore the cue 'tug tug' doesn't mean tug until the door is opened.

It may make the behaviour quicker to get but the dog is constantly looking for reasurence. In Hamish's case, I would worry that he is only gaining confidence through you - if you and the 'x,x,x,x,x,x' are gone will his emotions have changed around that stimulus. I do not know the answer to this and if you are happy with the method then go for it. I just don't feel comfortable using it and don't feel the need to. 

I love breaking down behaviours so the dog is successful without a homing signal because the dog shows such confidence and convictions in their actions when it is done in this way.

 

>>By difficult to get rid of do you mean the 'x,x,x,x,x' is
more difficult to phase out once the behaviour is learned that it is
to phase out the clicker?<<

Yes. The dog doesn't have the confidence to perform the whole behaviour on their own so fall short of finishing it if the 'x,x,x,x' is removed. The clicker is easy to remove because it comes after the behaviour has finished so can easily be dropped for a voice marker (I use 'yes'). 

>>It's all so fascinating isn't it.<<

It most definitely is :)

Another thing that I have observed is that dogs trained on homing signals react with much less enthusiasm to a voice marker ('yes' or 'excellent') than those trained without them. This for me is very important because when I am training a dog to accept handling or to put their head though a collar on their own (important for people with disabilities) I don't like to use a clicker because either I don't have enough hands or the click would be too near the dog's ears. In these situations I want the same enthusiasm for the word marker as I would get for a click therefore enhancing the learning process.

My other dislike for homing signals, which is probably only relevant in my line of work, is that they rely on the ability to speak and keep speaking throughout training. Many people I work with either have poor speech or become tired very easily so homing signals are not appropriate for them so I would rather not get a dog reliant on them.

Finally, I find training without them increases my skills as a trainer. It means I have to think more about how to get the dog to understand.

>>What do you think Anna about H's behaviour perhaps being resource
guarding. I know you haven't seen him for a while but I'm curious to
know if you think the method to alter his behaviour and perception
would be any different whether we approach it as fear based aggression
of resource guarding?<<

It is difficult. I haven't seen him for a while but from the time I spent with your both on that holiday I would be more inclined at fear. However he is extremely attached to you which could mean it was resource guarding. I would have to see it to know.

Thinking about his history - extreme seperation anxiety, noise sensitivity and becoming sensitised to travelling on the bus this would lead me to fear again. The fact that his anxiety seems to be progressing (started only with separation anxiety) links into it being a fear reaction as well.

If resource guarding it could be that if Hamish reacts you remove your self from the situation so you are then providing him with reinforcement for staying calm but also removing yourself as the 'guarded object' therefore showing Hamish that if he reacts you disappear. Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable doing this unless I was sure this was the cause.

Hope I haven't bored you and feel free to ask any more questions :)

Anna

[Londonfieldsboys]

Hi Anna,
I see your point now, I'm not so able to make an assessment as I've
not seen it in practice as you have and so I value your insight.

I can't see how I can remove myself and keep the lodger safe at the
same time. Tonight has been difficult. The lodger came home tired and
said he might go out and went for a bath. So as not to be 'trapped' in
the bedroom I took Hamish upstairs on the leash and sat down to wait
for the lodger to appear......he didn't, my dinner was ready, I ate
dinner with one hand holding the leash and clicker in the other
determined that there would be NO bark-i-sodes....still no
lodger....one hour later I gave up and retired to the bedroom (that's
where my computer is). So tis very, very tedious being prepared all
the time, trying to set us all up for success, when will it end?

On the upside, I have a note for my 'positive things about Hamish'
diary. I don't know what's gotten into him but he's been the happiest
dog ever, wiggling like crazy. We played 'touch (targeting) ping pong'
from one end of the house to the other and H absolutely loved it - so
very pleased with himself and did a lap of honour around the living
room with his fave snorting piglet. It's a pig that doesn't actually
squeak it really snorts like a pig and he is daft for it. I've
definitely been able to look at him less as a 'problem' dog since you
all gave me a pep talk.

Chrissie, I ordered SATS and the Family Dog which isn't available
online only in hardcopy, the other one was for all species and I
thought I needed something dog specific? Kinda wishing I hadn't
ordered it now as maybe there's enough to get on with learning more
about clicker training without complicating my brain any further. It's
interesting that in Anna's experience it doesn't make for a confident
dog. Kayce cover places a lot of emphasis on 'conditioned relaxation'
and makes the point that in certain situations when you are trying to
deal with 'arousal' that the clicker is inappropriate as it
substitutes one type of arousal (e.g alarm barking) for another
(excitement about food) but still keeping the dog in an aroused state.
We all can agree I'm sure that a dog who is already aroused is more
likely to react and so shovelling food into them as we do in clicker
training isn't getting them into the state of relaxation more
conducive to non-reactivity. I see her point but I'm not sure I agree
- surely the point is that food arousal is a positive association for
the dog and the basis of counter conditioning?

I dunno it's a real can of worms this mullarkey.

BTW Anna, not boring in the slightest - you are in such a good
learning position now putting all your huge amount of accumulated
knowledge into practice in a really beneficial way. It must be so
rewarding and it's great that we have you here as a resource. Well
done!!!

Ros, I'd like to hear your thoughts on any difference in approach you
might feel appropriate to resource guarding as opposed to fear
aggression i.e. would I do anything differently that what I'm doing
already? Oh! I never answered your question about the affect of
chemical castration...barking has worsened in recent months in the
house but got much better in cafe type environments so t's very
difficult to say if that could be a factor. I can see that his
testicles are getting slightly bigger again and so the implant must be
wearing off now, we are in the fifth month and it lasts for a max of
six. While on the subject I would like to make it clear that Hamish
had an implant called 'Suprelorin' which is completely different to
the chemical castration injection called 'Tardak'. It is a new slow
release method with an entirely different chemical and thought to be
safer - but who really knows? I can't find the source from when I did
my initial research but it's buried in my brain that 'tardak = high
risk' but as I have no source to back this up don't quote me.
love,

Ross x

[Ros Leighton]

Hi Ross, just a quickie before we head off down the coast for some sunshine
and sea...
Aaaaahhhhhh....

I love 'conditioned relaxation' though I just call it rewarding for doing
nothing... and I think it can be classically conditioned. Don't forget that
not all behaviours/emotions/etc need to be operantly conditioned - a very
good trainer I know is always saying 'don't forget, Pavlov is ALWAYS on your
shoulder'...

So simply dropping treats for relaxed behaviour - with or without
distraction - is classically conditioning the dog to consider 'calm
behaviour' to be a 'good thing'. An essential part of puppy training in our
house... :-)

Just dropping treats when the lodger is in the room and there is some air of
relaxation, rather than second guessing the timing for the clicker...dunno,
could help...

I'm not sure about the resource guarding Ross and as I said before, I really
don't like to give specific advice when it comes to any kind of aggression -
happy to give an opinion on what I think of the situation, but unless I was
seeing it would not like to give a 'solution'...., but Jean Donaldson is the
'guru' and her book 'Mine' is specifically about resource guarding and how
to overcome it... how many bookshelves did you say you have? <VBG>

Ross, you ARE doing a great job... I'm glad you've taken some deep
breaths... Hamish is to be enjoyed... and this will work its way through..

Cheers
Ros
x

-----Original Message-----
From: ukvi...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ukvi...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Londonfieldsboys
Sent: Monday, 16 November 2009 10:00 AM
To: ukvizsla
Subject: Re: Troubled Vizsla - split personality?

Hi Anna,
I see your point now, I'm not so able to make an assessment as I've
not seen it in practice as you have and so I value your insight.

I can't see how I can remove myself and keep the lodger safe at the
same time. Tonight has been difficult.

.......................

[Londonfieldsboys]

Good advice Ros,
I was also thinking about keeping a toy perhaps that he ONLY gets when
the lodger is in the room?

I had also already considered 'mine' but like you say until I have
completely decided (hopefully with Angela Stockdale's help) that he IS
resource guarding then I'm reluctant to put that into operation.

For now I'll continue as I have been, but I'm sure that would be an
interesting read anyway.

I know it's not related to this, but Hamish has NEVER resource guarded
his food or toys, he can happily let other dogs eat from the same bowl
as him at the same time. Hmmmm, I thought humans were the complex ones
to figure out???

Have fun in the sun and lots of R & R

love,
Ross x

[Susie Zarpanely]

I shall possibly be shouted down for this but maybe Hamish senses something in the people who provoke the barkisodes,something  that is so deeply/cleverly hidden that we overcomplicated humans fail to see? Sometimes we have to trust the dog? I know it has saved my bacon in the past.
 
Susie
 
> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:55:41 -0800
> Subject: Re: Troubled Vizsla - split personality?
> From: andre...@googlemail.com
> To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Chrissie Diron]

I think that's perfectly possible Susie. It's one of the reasons I suggested an animal communicator, as they often get given "tips" by the dogs as to what is going on. This may be pain, or this may be a smell or a visual threat that is as clear as day to the dog, but not to us. Whether you believe in ghosts or not, there are definitely many different energies all around us and some people emit very powerful energy and much energy cannot be seen. 

Certainly my dogs have proven to me over and over again that my perception isn't as acute as theirs. If I follow gut instinct on things, I do better than if I am only using my eyes and ears and logic, which often tell me someone is OK, yet there's something about them you can't quite put your finger on ... very often, if my dogs have reacted very strangely to a person (sometimes a fellow dog even) I have later discovered that something was indeed not quite "right" about them. We know dogs can smell the chemical changes in our bodies that go with cancer and diabetes and they can detect epileptic fits before they occur, so it stands to reason that they pick up on very minor irregularities and can read subtle body language better than we do and very "out of character" outbursts from them can often tell us something. Whilst we shouldn't just let the dogs go around harassing people, we should certainly give very untypical behaviours an open mind - we might just learn something! 

[Londonfieldsboys]

Hey Susie,
How fantastic to hear from you. I have never once doubted that Hamish
is far more observant than we humans who often completely miss the
obvious. I know he finds some things unpleasant/scary/confusing about
us humans, our lodger who is causing the current flare up loves dogs
and is trying his hardest to make friends with Hamish, however he is
doing it all wrong (repeating his name over and over and putting his
face far too close to H's when he's relaxing on the couch - and yes, I
told him immediately that this wasn't a good idea and way too
confrontational for this stage of the relationship). He comes across
as tentative and slightly nervous and I'm sure Hamish is picking up on
all this BUT I need him to change his mind about the lodger so that we
can all get some peace and shed the stress, honestly it's like being
captive in your own house holed up in the bedroom scared to come out.
I'm currently taking him out for brief waggy tailed enthusiastic
periods where the logder either feeds him treats or I drop treats on
the floor beside him. I then remove him to the bedroom before I've
pushed my luck. I'm hoping soon we'll be able make these periods
longer and longer once we've incorporated entering/leaving the room
without barkisodes, standing up without barkisodes. The thing is Susie
Hamish can be lying next to him completely relaxed letting him stroke
him but as soon as he stands up.....lunging barkisode happens.

Many people have suggested I find the route trigger and it doesn't
seem to be the person themselves but the person when they move, and
not even sudden movements but just standing up is enough or taking a
few steps in any direction from a standing position. Just why the
movement is threatening to him is the key question I would love to
understand.

Drunk, burly, over confident, brash men and women in pubs have caused
barkisodes as they have approached to stroke him and this I understand
as him sensing something that I do too and I trust his judgement. For
the record we don't go to pubs anymore with him. Maybe these couple of
episodes have been enough to cause this whole problem?

The only other thing I haven't mentioned since it will forever remain
a mystery is that there was hearsay in the park that his dog walker
was a bit harsh with the dogs and was known to shout at them and had
been seen to slap on or two dogs before. I didn't know what to make of
this because Hamish seemed to adore him and he seemed nice enough to
me, but then after an initial Viz hyper excited greeting, Hamish
started to cower in his crate when the leash came out and was
reluctant to leave with him. Once he got out the door we would peer
through the letterbox and H seemed to trot down the road happy as
normal, but we don't use him anymore anyway. Still there is the doubt
in my mind that something was going on that has made Hamish more wary
of people but I'll never know the answer to that one.

Gosh, i've gone and wrote a tome again...sorry.

best to all,
Ross x

ps. Susie did you ever catch up with Helen Philips?

On Nov 17, 11:09 pm, Susie Zarpanely <susiez...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I shall possibly be shouted down for this but maybe Hamish senses something in the people who provoke the barkisodes,something  that is so deeply/cleverly hidden that we overcomplicated humans fail to see? Sometimes we have to trust the dog? I know it has saved my bacon in the past.
>
> Susie
>
> > Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2009 14:55:41 -0800
> > Subject: Re: Troubled Vizsla - split personality?

> > From: andreala...@googlemail.com

[Hopeful]

Hello Ross

I have been reading this post with great interest. Since I got my
vizsla I have become really interested in training and canine
psychology, so have been really interested in reading about the advice
and experiences that you are having. You obviously love Hamish to bits
and it is lovely to see such effort being invested in a much loved
dog.

I did communicate with you a little while ago and you introduced me to
Helen Phillips. As a result of this I went on her week long Clicker
Gundog course last month and it was superb. She really is a wonderful
teacher and my dog, Willow, had a wonderful time.

Good luck witn your ongoing work with Hamish.

Regards
Anita

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Susie Zarpanely]

Ross will reply shortly too late in the day now
 
S
 
> Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 04:04:11 -0800

> Subject: Re: Troubled Vizsla - split personality?

> From: anit...@btinternet.com
> To: ukvi...@googlegroups.com

[Ros Leighton]

Hi, back from the beach...:-(

To 39 degree heat... ick...

Oh,well...

I suspect that if it IS resource guarding, it will not be related in any way
to other resources - just you Ross...

Oh, we're all complex.. ;-)

Hope you've had some good days..

Cheers
Ros

-----Original Message-----

[Chrissie Diron]

It's snowing here :-)

[Chrissie Diron]

Ross, it's a great relief to know you are working with Angela. She is great eh? I almost went to her for livestock desensitization work with my boys before we left for Canada, as I knew our new neighbours kept alpacas and I was worried sick my dogs would chase them and generally be real menaces. In the end I took my boys for a few visits to an alpaca farm in the south and we were able to introduce them and assess their level of arousal, which was workable and we haven't had big problems with the dogs and neighbouring animals at all. But her reputation goes before her and I am so pleased that you feel comfortable with her and her advice. So far I can see it's management and desensitization you're working on. That's good. Reduces stress for sure. 

And there could well be a seizure-type trigger in there, some sort of electrical fault that sets off the bark-i-sodes. I have to ask something in that context: has Hamish been vaccinated for rabies? There is a strong connection between that vaccine and sudden onset aggression in dogs - it's seen often in the States, where nearly all dogs have received a rabies shot. I expect to see far more of it in the UK, now that the rabies vaccine has been introduced for travel. The good news is that if it does correlate to a rabies shot, then that can be addressed homeopathically with very specific remedies. In fact, knowing if his parents were vaccinated for rabies would be important info to have too (hereditary miasms).

Hope you can get you camera crew organised for "Hamish - The Movie"! 

[Ros Leighton]

Ross - fabulous, fabulous, fabulous!!!!

Sounds just wonderful... management is such a tool.

Great news
Ros

-----Original Message-----
From: Londonfieldsboys [mailto:ROS...@sky.com]
Subject: Re: Troubled Vizsla - split personality?

Hello eveyone,
I thought it worthwhile to let you know what has been happening in
East London.

I have been having long daily conversations on the telephone with
Angela Stockdale.

[Anna Nussey]

This all sounds brilliant. I might get hold of her myself for Ziggi.

This particularly interested me:

>>.reactivity from a relaxed or sleeping position can
sometimes be the occurrence of a very low level epileptic fit.<<

As many of you know Ziggi has some fits (now 3) but will also wake up suddenly and if something is going past her she will lunge and snap at it (mostly dogs but once when I moved) all times she looks extremely confused afterwards!

Very very interesting

Thanks for letting us know

Anna

[hele...@googlemail.com]

Dear All,

I think this is my first post here and I am no expert but here goes. I
think people have very set ideas about Vizs and the behaviour
expected. Our girl, Ilka, came from a great breeder who told us how
easy the breed is in puppyhood, it would be a breeze, so relaxed etc.
Ilka was crazy. She hardly stopped until after her first season and I
was at my wits end. I think we should all remember that dogs are
individuals so, Ross, I say don't try to make Hamish into a 'typical'
Viz if he isn't, just deal with and find the good in who he is.

If you buy into the Dog Whisperer (Cesar Milan) then might your Hamish
be picking up on your nervousness (about his responses) and seeking to
protect you? I agree with one of the other commenters to avoid these
high-stress situations. Ilka shows no agression, but I wouldn't take
her to cafes, restaurants, crowded stations as she would just go nuts.
It seems to me in my limited experience that Vizslas are very
environment stimulated.

I'm really surprised by the comments that certain lines are very
interbred. I would avoid these like the plague, surely can't be good
and those breeders sound very irresponsible to me. Just a general
thought.

Re Homeopathy - we have never tried this, but seeing as the head of
Boots this week said in a commons special committee that homeopathic
remedies have 'no efficacy' I wouldn't expect great results there!
Lol.

It sounds like you're doing all the right things though so I hope it
works out for you. Again, I'm not an expert, just a Vizsla fan, so I
hope I haven't offended or been inaccurate, just wanted to support! To
others, I am also going to post about spay vs breeding so please help
out!

Good luck,

Helen

[Londonfieldsboys]

Hi Helen,
So good to hear from you and thanks for breaking your silence and
deciding to post. It is very informative to read but ultimately you
get a lot more by entering into debate and taking part.
I think you are absolutely right in saying that I should see Hamish as
an individual, and I try to do this as best I can but some days when
his issues are causing us great distress it's hard not to wish he was
like other dogs (the relaxed ones) not only like other Viz. He does of
course have many plus points and I'm keeping a score of these too. We
too had an exceptionally big wake up call after we brought Hamish home
- as my first dog I found him testing in the extreme.

The strange thing is I've had many, many people come up to me in the
past, saying that they could never imagine their Viz being as calm as
Hamish. He can be anxious but he can also be extremely tolerant - for
example with kids.

I'm afraid one of my pet (excuse me!) hates is Mr. Milan and if I had
my way he would be banned from t.v. I find him extremely dangerous to
the general dog owning public who have no knowledge to compare him
against and therefore think he has the answers - well I'm afraid his
practice goes directly against any modern scientific methods that
educated research behaviourists have spent years and years to refine
and develop. There are many articles on the internet explaining very
intelligently why Cesar Milan is sending the advances of the dog
training world back 20 years at least. Here is a good place to start
to read about how other professionals rate him (or rather don't):
http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

There are others here more experienced with Homeopathy and I'm sure
they'll be able to respond to your statement about that better than I,
but I do have more faith in it than conventional medicine in most
cases as I believe strongly in addressing the root problem and not the
symptoms.

The point about Stations, Cafes etc. might be true of a dog that had
never been to a town or a city before but Hamish was brought to London
when he was 8 weeks old and was very well socialised in public areas.
He was never 'crazy' in these situations he would just lie flat out on
the floor and sleep (until the food arrived at least). His nervousness/
aggression has been going on for a while but he wasn't always like
this. It could be said he was just bottling it all up but I genuinely
remember him being able to lie on the floor on the tube train in rush
hour while commuters stepped over him and he didn't flinch a muscle.
But he's older now (well 3yrs old) and a few unavoidable things have
happened to him that I believe have contributed to his malaise.

Thanks so much for your support it has been gratefully received and I
hope you're not too disappointed to read about negative responses to
Cesar Milan. I do hope that in reading more widely and drawing on
other informed opinions that we will all be able to understand our
dogs better and help them to cope with this world we have invited them
into share with us for our benefit.

all the best,
Ross x

On Nov 27, 9:26 pm, "helenp...@googlemail.com"