Does anyone know of this line. I saw it when I was a passenger driving along the Dudden Hill (A4088). I saw the line and thought that it was the Metropolitan, Jubilee and Chiltern Lines towards Wembley, but I immediately noticed two things: Firstly, I thought that this particular formation was too narrow to accommodate the sets of tracks for the above lines. Secondly, the track should've been heading northeast towards Neasden, but it was heading southwest! After this, the road we were driving on actually crossed the wider track formation which WAS heading northeast.
After looking in the trusty A-Z, I saw it was a different track and I traced it route with the help of the map.
From the map, I saw that this line runs north of Acton Central, after the NLL diverges eastwards towards Willesden Junction. It then crosses the main line out of Euston just east of Harlesden station. The line swings northeast before a link diverges off to the left to join the Chiltern Line beyond Neasden, just before the latter's High Wycombe line diverges, which was where I saw the line in the first place! The line finally splits into two and joins up with the Thameslink tracks north of Cricklewood.
Do any passenger services use this track, or is it goods-only.
I believe this was the original (or most of it) North and Southwestern Junction railway, operated jointly by the LSWR and the LNWR. IIRC it was built for freight and had always mostly been used for that. (Although I think the NLR operated some passenger service over it for a while.)
Nestor Eric Ilagan wrote: > Does anyone know of this line. I saw it when I was a passenger driving along > the Dudden Hill (A4088). I saw the line and thought that it was the > Metropolitan, Jubilee and Chiltern Lines towards Wembley, but I immediately > noticed two things: Firstly, I thought that this particular formation was > too narrow to accommodate the sets of tracks for the above lines. Secondly, > the track should've been heading northeast towards Neasden, but it was > heading southwest! After this, the road we were driving on actually crossed > the wider track formation which WAS heading northeast.
> After looking in the trusty A-Z, I saw it was a different track and I traced > it route with the help of the map.
> From the map, I saw that this line runs north of Acton Central, after the > NLL diverges eastwards towards Willesden Junction. > It then crosses the main line out of Euston just east of Harlesden station. > The line swings northeast before a link diverges off to the left to join the > Chiltern Line beyond Neasden, just before the latter's High Wycombe line > diverges, which was where I saw the line in the first place! > The line finally splits into two and joins up with the Thameslink tracks > north of Cricklewood.
> Do any passenger services use this track, or is it goods-only.
On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:10:33 GMT, RoyMedia <roybarna...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>I believe this was the original (or most of it) North and Southwestern Junction >railway, operated jointly by the LSWR and the LNWR. IIRC it was built for >freight and had always mostly been used for that. (Although I think the NLR >operated some passenger service over it for a while.)
'Officially' freight only, but I believe it is passed for passenger use, as I think I've heard of a railtour or two that have used it in the past.
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:10:33 GMT, RoyMedia <roybarna...@mediaone.net> > wrote:
> >I believe this was the original (or most of it) North and Southwestern Junction > >railway, operated jointly by the LSWR and the LNWR. IIRC it was built for > >freight and had always mostly been used for that. (Although I think the NLR > >operated some passenger service over it for a while.)
> 'Officially' freight only, but I believe it is passed for passenger > use, as I think I've heard of a railtour or two that have used it in > the past.
Is it the route that will be used by the new HEx trains to St Pancras?
In article <G25vEJ....@mail2.ccs.bbk.ac.uk>, Nestor Eric Ilagan <Nest...@HoTMaiL.com> writes
>Does anyone know of this line.
[...]
It's the Midland Railway "Dudding Hill" route. Starting at Cricklewood Curve Junction and Brent Curve Junction, both between Cricklewood and Hendon, the two arms meet at Dudding Hill Junction. It then runs over everything else to meet the NLL at Acton Wells Junction (signal box on the east side).
Someone mentioned the North and South Western Junction Railway. That is the line that starts with the curve opposite Willesden Junction station, meets the NLL and the above line at Acton Wells Junction (where it's the middle of the three lines), carries the NLL to Bollo Lane Junction, and then branches west to meet the Brentford loop at a triangle just west of Kew Bridge station. It also had a branch line facing north from South Acton, round in a semicircle and under the District to a terminus at "Hammersmith & Chiswick" - you can still trace the route on a map.
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In article <ik44usckut0d90vftac1p96vtv9qo7g...@4ax.com>, Matt Forbes <m...@mattforbes.org.uk> writes
>'Officially' freight only, but I believe it is passed for passenger >use, as I think I've heard of a railtour or two that have used it in >the past.
Back in the late 1960s I was on a Merrymaker (or equivalent) from Southend Victoria to Tenby. We must have gone off the main line at Stratford and on to the Lea Bridge line, because we used GOBLIN to meet the Midland at the junction just north of Kentish Town, then this line from Cricklewood to meet the GWR at Acton Main Line.
(47 haulage, for those who care. Headcode 1Z97, I think; it was on the loco.)
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In article <Xf5j$SXDgj45E...@romana.davros.org>, Clive D.W. Feather <cl...@demon.net> wrote:
>In article <G25vEJ....@mail2.ccs.bbk.ac.uk>, Nestor Eric Ilagan ><Nest...@HoTMaiL.com> writes >>Does anyone know of this line. >[...]
>It's the Midland Railway "Dudding Hill" route. Starting at Cricklewood >Curve Junction and Brent Curve Junction, both between Cricklewood and >Hendon, the two arms meet at Dudding Hill Junction. It then runs over >everything else to meet the NLL at Acton Wells Junction (signal box on >the east side).
Originally called the Midland and South Western Junction line, though no relation to the railway company later called by that name. Still sometimes known as the "old" M&SWJ. I expect John Gough will know if that was its offical company name or if it was always a Midland line :)
>Someone mentioned the North and South Western Junction Railway. That is >the line that starts with the curve opposite Willesden Junction station, >meets the NLL and the above line at Acton Wells Junction (where it's the >middle of the three lines), carries the NLL to Bollo Lane Junction, and >then branches west to meet the Brentford loop at a triangle just west of >Kew Bridge station.
Presumably so named, like many early lines with "Junction" in the title, because it joined the LNWR with the LSWR.
>Is it the route that will be used by the new HEx trains to St Pancras?
It's a possibility, but diverting to Cricklewood would involve a longer journey than going over the NLL, then via a (new? re-opened?) chord to St. Pancras. However, routing HEx via Cricklewood, would alleviate capacity on the NLL....
In article <ik44usckut0d90vftac1p96vtv9qo7g...@4ax.com>,
m...@mattforbes.org.uk (Matt Forbes) wrote: > On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:10:33 GMT, RoyMedia <roybarna...@mediaone.net> > wrote:
> >I believe this was the original (or most of it) North and Southwestern > >Junction railway, operated jointly by the LSWR and the LNWR. IIRC it > >was built for freight and had always mostly been used for that. > >(Although I think the NLR operated some passenger service over it for a > >while.)
> 'Officially' freight only, but I believe it is passed for passenger > use, as I think I've heard of a railtour or two that have used it in > the past.
Isn't this line part of the route of the planned Heathrow-St Pancras service?
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2000 22:20:25 +0100, "Nigel Pendse" > <nig...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> >[About the Dudding Hill freight Line] > >Is it the route that will be used by the new HEx trains to St Pancras?
> It's a possibility, but diverting to Cricklewood would involve a > longer journey than going over the NLL, then via a (new? re-opened?) > chord to St. Pancras. However, routing HEx via Cricklewood, would > alleviate capacity on the NLL....
The Heathrow St Pancras service will run via Cricklewood and the Dudding Hill freight line if it runs at all. (Brent Council have at various times hoped that the trains would serve Cricklewood or an interchange station at Harlesden.) AFAIK there has never been any suggestion of using the NLL. Incidentally, the Dudding Hill line would have to become electrified before any public service into the Heathrow tunnels could use it .
The Dudding Hill line is shown in the "Mr Beck's Underground Map" book, in Mr Beck's precursor to the London Connections which is shown in the appendix. The curves to Cricklewood, Hendon and Neasden are all shown. This suggests that either Beck was showing freight lines (which would surprise me), or public services ran in the 1930s on all three curves. I would be grateful to anyone who could say which is the case.
-- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 6th Oct. http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla.html A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes
In article <971144891.4764.5.nnrp-13.d4e40...@news.demon.co.uk>, John Rowland <jo...@turquoisedays.spamspam.demon.co.uk> writes
>The Dudding Hill line is shown in the "Mr Beck's Underground Map" book, in >Mr Beck's precursor to the London Connections which is shown in the >appendix. The curves to Cricklewood, Hendon and Neasden are all shown. This >suggests that either Beck was showing freight lines (which would surprise >me), or public services ran in the 1930s on all three curves. I would be >grateful to anyone who could say which is the case.
I can't answer that, but according to the Pre-Grouping Atlas, both stations on it (Dudding Hill and Harlesden) were goods only.
-- Clive D.W. Feather | Internet Expert | Work: <cl...@demon.net> Tel: +44 20 8371 1138 | Demon Internet | Home: <cl...@davros.org> Fax: +44 20 8371 1037 | Thus plc | Web: <http://www.davros.org> Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address
It had a passenger service for a short period many, many years ago (even in those car-free times, it miserably failed to attract any significant PAX traffic)
(I travelled it on a railtour in the early 1960s)
"Matt Forbes" <m...@mattforbes.org.uk> wrote in message
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:10:33 GMT, RoyMedia <roybarna...@mediaone.net> > wrote:
> >I believe this was the original (or most of it) North and Southwestern Junction > >railway, operated jointly by the LSWR and the LNWR. IIRC it was built for > >freight and had always mostly been used for that. (Although I think the NLR > >operated some passenger service over it for a while.)
> 'Officially' freight only, but I believe it is passed for passenger > use, as I think I've heard of a railtour or two that have used it in > the past.
On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:10:33 GMT, RoyMedia <roybarna...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>I believe this was the original (or most of it) North and Southwestern Junction >railway, operated jointly by the LSWR and the LNWR. IIRC it was built for >freight and had always mostly been used for that. (Although I think the NLR >operated some passenger service over it for a while.)
Correct. The line has also been used by odd passenger services from time to time, such as Leicester - Bournemouth in the 1960s, and a useful link for charter tours. I assume it remains officially useable by passenger trains.
It is the planned route for Heathrow - St Pancras trains, if they ever happen.
In article <YzPgUHZZKs45E...@romana.davros.org>, Clive D.W. Feather <cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> I can't answer that, but according to the Pre-Grouping Atlas, both > stations on it (Dudding Hill and Harlesden) were goods only.
There was a Dudding Hill station on the Midland, with a very complicated history of openings, closures and renamings - but it had closed completely before the time of Beck's map.
> In article <YzPgUHZZKs45E...@romana.davros.org>, > Clive D.W. Feather <cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> wrote: > > I can't answer that, but according to the Pre-Grouping Atlas, both > > stations on it (Dudding Hill and Harlesden) were goods only.
> There was a Dudding Hill station on the Midland, with a very complicated > history of openings, closures and renamings - but it had closed completely > before the time of Beck's map.
According to Mr Goughs magnum opus, Dudding Hill closed 1/10/1902 and Harlesden for West Willesden and Stonebridge Park the same date. ; Mike Stone
On Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:17:45 +0100, "Clive D.W. Feather"
<cl...@on-the-train.demon.co.uk> wrote: >In article <971144891.4764.5.nnrp-13.d4e40...@news.demon.co.uk>, John >Rowland <jo...@turquoisedays.spamspam.demon.co.uk> writes >>The Dudding Hill line is shown in the "Mr Beck's Underground Map" book, in >>Mr Beck's precursor to the London Connections which is shown in the >>appendix. The curves to Cricklewood, Hendon and Neasden are all shown. This >>suggests that either Beck was showing freight lines (which would surprise >>me), or public services ran in the 1930s on all three curves. I would be >>grateful to anyone who could say which is the case.
>I can't answer that, but according to the Pre-Grouping Atlas, both >stations on it (Dudding Hill and Harlesden) were goods only.
None of the histories I have read mentioned local services on the line after the initial attempts.
It might be worth mentioning that the line has another connection - from Acton Canal Wharf to the WCML (Low Level Goods line) near Harlesden. This dates from the 1960s and certainlyt never carried a regular passenger service.
> It might be worth mentioning that the line has another connection - > from Acton Canal Wharf to the WCML (Low Level Goods line) near > Harlesden. This dates from the 1960s and certainlyt never carried a > regular passenger service.
But will be used if Anglia succeed in running services between Basingstoke and the WCML (see sig)
-- John Rowland - Spamtrapped Anglia's London CrossLink proposal described at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/tpftla_c.html#Anglia A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood. That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line - It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes
