Satellite dish acquires wrong "bird"
Graham.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
tony sayer
scribeth thus
>
>
>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>
>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>
>Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.
>
>
>
Ain't that one of they VSAT terminals?..
--
Tony Sayer
Graham.
"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jED7$XRrJO...@bancom.co.uk...
Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?
EPOS? I wouldn't have thought there would be enough data
generated to justify the expense.
There is a nest on there, if you squint your eyes you can just
about see the mummy bird.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
2pods
"Graham." <m...@privicy.com> wrote in message
news:griopb$dcg$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>
>
> "tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:jED7$XRrJO...@bancom.co.uk...
>> In article <grihuq$o5u$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham. <m...@privicy.com>
>> scribeth thus
>>>
>>>
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Ain't that one of they VSAT terminals?..
>
> Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
> where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
> dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
> them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?
> EPOS? I wouldn't have thought there would be enough data
> generated to justify the expense.
>
Our local shop has one for it's Lotto till link. Could be the same ?
Peter
Graham.
"2pods" <mun...@mung.net> wrote in message
news:49dd0107$0$23728$db0f...@news.zen.co.uk...
I hadn't thought of that, but that's probably what they are.
ADSL with a secure VPN not good enough?
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Ashley Booth
Some, I believe, are used for lottery terminals
--
Ashley
For Windsor Weather see www.snglinks.com/wx
Clint Sharp
writes
>Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
>where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
>dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
>them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?
>EPOS? I wouldn't have thought there would be enough data
>generated to justify the expense.
National lottery are/have rolled out Hughes sat uplinks.
>
>There is a nest on there, if you squint your eyes you can just
>about see the mummy bird.
>
--
Clint Sharp
Clint Sharp
writes
>I hadn't thought of that, but that's probably what they are.
>ADSL with a secure VPN not good enough?
--
Clint Sharp
Dave Farrance
>> In article <grihuq$o5u$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham wrote:
>>>
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
> ...
>There is a nest on there, if you squint your eyes you can just
>about see the mummy bird.
I guess that you meant to post this:
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird2.jpg
--
Dave Farrance
Graham.
"Dave Farrance" <DaveFa...@OMiTTHiSyahooANDTHiS.co.uk> wrote in message
news:svdqt41ttsnlfere3...@4ax.com...
I did indeed. Thanks Dave :-)
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Cuzman
" I did indeed. Thanks Dave :-) "
No, no !!! That dish is how Al-Qaeda communicate, and that bird is an
enemy combatant. Dial 999 now !!!
Graham.
"Cuzman" <cuzG...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:soKdneRTDIJaOUDU...@pipex.net...
A stool pigeon?
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Petert
>
>
>"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:jED7$XRrJO...@bancom.co.uk...
>> In article <grihuq$o5u$1...@news.motzarella.org>, Graham. <m...@privicy.com>
>> scribeth thus
>>>
>>>
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Take a closer look, on top of the mount.
>>>http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/infoweb/bird1.jpg
>>>
>>>Note to myself, I really must carry a decent camera on my travels.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Ain't that one of they VSAT terminals?..
>
>Certainly an uplink of some kind, on the medical centre
>where I was working this morning, but I have seen similar
>dishes on high-street retailers, "late night" grocery stores amongst
>them IIRC. What would a chain like that use them for?
Lottery?
--
Cheers
Peter
Rob Wilson
tony sayer
<peter....@brightchro.me.uk> scribeth thus
Why don't they use the same system as credit and debit card readers do?.
Which IIRC or believe is via landline?..
--
Tony Sayer
Petert
wrote:
They obviously prefer not to use land-lines - the reasons for this may
be many, but I would guess that they prefer satellite for reasons of
security - I guess they use the link to download software to the
terminals in addition to using the up-link for checking tickets etc.
--
Cheers
Peter
jamie powell
"Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
news:c91st4hmrbbvftl61...@4ax.com...
>>Why don't they use the same system as credit and debit card readers do?.
>>Which IIRC or believe is via landline?..
>
> They obviously prefer not to use land-lines - the reasons for this may
> be many, but I would guess that they prefer satellite for reasons of
> security - I guess they use the link to download software to the
> terminals in addition to using the up-link for checking tickets etc.
There are plenty of secure internet-based solutions - if it's good enough
for billions of credit card transactions, it's good enough for lottery
tickets.
My guess is that someone's come to a "lucrative and mutually-beneficial
business arrangement" with the satellite providers, which is a slightly more
generous term for "back-hander".
If pressed, I'm sure the person who's decision it was will give you a
textbook monologue about the need to protect one of Britain's great cultural
assets from the threat of terrorism and crime blah blah, without actually
providing any solid or detailed technical reason as to why these ugly dishes
had to be installed - badly in most cases - on every newsagent in Britain.
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
the lottery.
Landline provider to Lottery executive: "Can you give us an absolute
guarantee that we will not be sued by a customer who has failed to
win lots of cash because our connection between a newsagent and your
system was down?"
Lottery executive: "No"
Landline provider: "Goodbye"
[Retires talking to himself: "Even if we were legally blameless we
would not want the appallingly bad publicity associated with such a
connection failure"]
Credit/debit card transactions are not time-critical in the same way.
jamie powell
"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
news:r67st4l83ej05alb5...@4ax.com...
> Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
> important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
> transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
> to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
> numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
> connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
> reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
> the lottery.
Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable - far more chance of
the system going down for reasons other than the network uplink path and, in
any event, one could have a POTS-based backup modem link.
> [Retires talking to himself: "Even if we were legally blameless we
They are legally blameless.
> would not want the appallingly bad publicity associated with such a
> connection failure"]
The established media wouldn't give them bad publicity if they were told not
to.
Angry person X could never prove that they'd selected the right numbers
anyway - they'd never be taken seriously.
> Credit/debit card transactions are not time-critical in the same way.
They are if you're in a shop and trying to buy something (a lottery ticket,
for example...)
charles
jamie powell <jami...@excite.com> wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
> news:r67st4l83ej05alb5...@4ax.com...
> > Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
> > important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
> > transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
> > to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
> > numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
> > connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
> > reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
> > the lottery.
> Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable -
but probably more expensive that a satellite link over a few years.
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
jamie powell
"charles" <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5049650d...@charleshope.demon.co.uk...
>> Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable -
>
> but probably more expensive that a satellite link over a few years.
I doubt it.
tony sayer
scribeth thus
>
>"Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
>news:c91st4hmrbbvftl61...@4ax.com...
>
>>>Why don't they use the same system as credit and debit card readers do?.
>>>Which IIRC or believe is via landline?..
>>
>> They obviously prefer not to use land-lines - the reasons for this may
>> be many, but I would guess that they prefer satellite for reasons of
>> security - I guess they use the link to download software to the
>> terminals in addition to using the up-link for checking tickets etc.
>
>There are plenty of secure internet-based solutions - if it's good enough
>for billions of credit card transactions, it's good enough for lottery
>tickets.
>
>My guess is that someone's come to a "lucrative and mutually-beneficial
>business arrangement" with the satellite providers, which is a slightly more
>generous term for "back-hander".
My word!, you cynical oldie;)..
>If pressed, I'm sure the person who's decision it was will give you a
>textbook monologue about the need to protect one of Britain's great cultural
>assets from the threat of terrorism and crime blah blah, without actually
>providing any solid or detailed technical reason as to why these ugly dishes
>had to be installed - badly in most cases - on every newsagent in Britain.
>
>
--
Tony Sayer
tony sayer
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> scribeth thus
So the satellite system is more reliable than the landline then;?..
--
Tony Sayer
Bill Wright
queue behind a lottery ticker buyer I never go back.
Bill
Chas Gill
"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:a4qdnUOUhYKjD0PU...@pipex.net...
> Just to put my two pennorth in. If I go to a filling station and I have to
> queue behind a lottery ticker buyer I never go back.
>
> Bill
>
Just how big IS your auxiliary fuel tank?
Chas
Bill Wright
"Chas Gill" <Chas...@gollum.btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:S92dnWh-H-BMl0LU...@bt.com...
I just make a mental note, and the next time I'm down that way I buy my fuel
elsewhere.
Bill
Chas Gill
few filling stations these days that DON'T sell lottery tickets and the
chances are that you will find yourself queuing behind a purchaser more and
more often, to the point that - if you took your resolution to the limit -
you would find unoffending filling stations that were few and far between.
But now I've explained all that it's no longer the least bit funny. Ho
hum..................
Try this one instead: -
Two Scots, Archie & Jock, are sitting in a pub discussing Jock's forthcoming
wedding. "Och, it's all goin' t'be grand" says Jock, "I've everything
organised already, the flowers, the church, the invitations, the reception,
the rings, the minister. Even me stag necht."
Archie nods approvingly.
"Heavens, I've even bought a kilt to be married in" continues Jock.
"A kilt?" exclaims Archie, "that's braw, ye'll look purer deed smart in tha!
And what's the tart'n?"
"Och" says Jock "I'd imagine she'll be in white...."
Chas
Bill Wright
>
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:YoadnZKY9Nhk3kLU...@pipex.net...
>>
>> "Chas Gill" <Chas...@gollum.btinternet.com> wrote in message
>> news:S92dnWh-H-BMl0LU...@bt.com...
>>>
>>> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
>>> news:a4qdnUOUhYKjD0PU...@pipex.net...
>>>> Just to put my two pennorth in. If I go to a filling station and I have
>>>> to queue behind a lottery ticker buyer I never go back.
>>>>
>>>> Bill
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just how big IS your auxiliary fuel tank?
>>
>> I just make a mental note, and the next time I'm down that way I buy my
>> fuel elsewhere.
>>
>> Bill
>>
> My point (meant in jest, but a point, nevertheless) is that there are very
> few filling stations these days that DON'T sell lottery tickets and the
> chances are that you will find yourself queuing behind a purchaser more
> and more often, to the point that - if you took your resolution to the
> limit - you would find unoffending filling stations that were few and far
> between. But now I've explained all that it's no longer the least bit
> funny. Ho hum..................
Yes, I know, I know. But the thing is, some garages don't seem to have
queues. I'm all in favour of the owner using the lottery to maximise his
site profits, but I take the view that if it delays me I will simply go
elsewhere. People in this country are far too docile about being made to
wait. Heard the news about the doctor's surgery near here? Outrageous, and
faced with a bit of publicity they have solved the problem overnight.
http://www.pulsetoday.co.uk/story.asp?sectioncode=20&storycode=4122416&c=2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7988420.stm
>
> Try this one instead: -
>
> Two Scots, Archie & Jock, are sitting in a pub discussing Jock's
> forthcoming wedding. "Och, it's all goin' t'be grand" says Jock, "I've
> everything organised already, the flowers, the church, the invitations,
> the reception, the rings, the minister. Even me stag necht."
>
> Archie nods approvingly.
>
> "Heavens, I've even bought a kilt to be married in" continues Jock.
>
> "A kilt?" exclaims Archie, "that's braw, ye'll look purer deed smart in
> tha! And what's the tart'n?"
>
> "Och" says Jock "I'd imagine she'll be in white...."
Oh dear.
Bill
Petert
<jami...@excite.com> wrote:
>
>"Peter Duncanson" <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
>news:r67st4l83ej05alb5...@4ax.com...
>
>> Apart from all that, isn't it possible that the need for reliability is
>> important. As the deadline for buying a lottery ticket approaches the
>> transaction becomes increasingly time-critical. A customer is not going
>> to be at all happy if she discovers that she had selected the winning
>> numbers but had been unable to buy a ticket because the newsagent's
>> connection to the lottery computer system was down at the time for
>> reasons totally outside the control of the newsagent or the operators of
>> the lottery.
>
>Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable - far more chance of
>the system going down for reasons other than the network uplink path and, in
>any event, one could have a POTS-based backup modem link.
They may well ne reliable - but they aren't reliable enough to satisfy
Camelot. For example
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6097884.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4913912.stm
And the mother of them all - 30 metres down
jamie powell
>>Business-grade internet connections are highly reliable - far more chance
>>of
>>the system going down for reasons other than the network uplink path and,
>>in
>>any event, one could have a POTS-based backup modem link.
>
> They may well ne reliable - but they aren't reliable enough to satisfy
> Camelot. For example
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/6097884.stm
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/beds/bucks/herts/4913912.stm
>
> And the mother of them all - 30 metres down
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7984562.stm
I expected a statement from Camelot or something - is that the best you can
do? :)
Also, what happens when chavs throw bricks at Camelot satellite dishes which
are installed just 10ft from the ground? (those evil chavs are everywhere
and they're all up to no good - the nice man on the telly told me so)
Bill Wright
"jamie powell" <jami...@excite.com> wrote in message
news:groinm$qfh$1...@aioe.org...
>
> Also, what happens when chavs throw bricks at Camelot satellite dishes
> which are installed just 10ft from the ground? (those evil chavs are
> everywhere and they're all up to no good - the nice man on the telly told
> me so)
Near where I live there's a dish on a ground stand, at a broadcast site. It
has elaborate fortifications in the form of spikes that stick out
horizontally all the way round. If I were 13 years old, I would see these
spikes as convenient hand holds. My friends and I would regard the whole
structure as a splendid climbing frame.
Bill
Graham.
"Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
news:0aOdnWMy_tt_TkLU...@pipex.net...
Would a
"Danger. Non-ionising radiation will fry your gonads"
sign have any effect?
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Bill Wright
"Graham." <m...@privicy.com> wrote in message
news:grptqk$plj$1...@news.motzarella.org...
>> Near where I live there's a dish on a ground stand, at a broadcast site.
>> It has elaborate fortifications in the form of spikes that stick out
>> horizontally all the way round. If I were 13 years old, I would see these
>> spikes as convenient hand holds. My friends and I would regard the whole
>> structure as a splendid climbing frame.
>>
>> Bill
>
> Would a
> "Danger. Non-ionising radiation will fry your gonads"
> sign have any effect?
As children we would have used it as an instrument of coercion. "Give me
your sweets Violet Elizabeth Bott or we'll put you on the gonad frying
machine!" Of course neither V. E. Bott or ourselves would have known what
gonads were.
Bill
tony sayer
<peter....@brightchro.me.uk> scribeth thus
Course Camelot has the necessary sat receivers on its building then?..
--
Tony Sayer
Peter Duncanson
wrote:
>In article <ioivt41ec00ntroai...@4ax.com>, Petert
<innocently>
Isn't Camelot's computer system in earth orbit where it can't be
interferred with?
</innocently>
Graham.
I know it sounds a bit bizarre,
But in Camelot, Camelot
That's how conditions are.
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Petert
None at all I suspect. Doubtful many, if any, of the little scrotes
can read and if they cabn are unlikely to have come across the word
"gonad"
--
Cheers
Peter
J G Miller
> Isn't Camelot's computer system in earth orbit where it can't be
> interferred with?
So it is not defended by the Knights of the Round Table
("We do what we are able!")?
Unless of course they are earth orbit as well.
jamie powell
>
> None at all I suspect. Doubtful many, if any, of the little scrotes
> can read and if they cabn are unlikely to have come across the word
> "gonad"
You've been watching too much state-controlled television.
They're still human beings. Just because they're chavs - and they look and
dress a bit different to you, and spend the evening outdoors with their
friends instead of sitting in front of the television - doesn't make them a
subspecies.
Petert
I think yoo'll find that I haven't described anyone as a sub-species.
I also think you have no idea how I dress, or indeed how young vandals
dress. I spend a lot of time outdoors in the evenings enjoying various
pastimes. I am also literate and numerate. I watch very little
television.
My eperience of young teenagers that vandalise various items of other
peoples property is that although they enjoy a healthy outdoor
lifestyle they often do it to the detriment of their schooling i.e.
they don't bother attending. This then has the knock-on effect of them
not being fully conversant with the English (or any other) language -
hence my comment that some such people may not be able to read the
sign mentioned, and that if they could, their vocabulary was unlikely
to extends as far as being familiar with the term Gonad.
Similarly, if they were reading this thread, they would be unlikely to
be able to use the term "subspecies" in the correct context
--
Cheers
Peter
Bill Wright
Yes, it's all to easy for us older people to pre-judge youngsters on
appearance grounds. The vast majority of kids are decent and hard working.
There's a big difference between normal teenage horseplay and rebellion, and
actual criminality. The kids that commit the latter are in a small minority.
When I was a kid I was in a gang of little scrotes that hung around and
performed minor acts of mischief, and were the dispair of the local oldies.
The scrotes are now, respectively, the production director of a large UK
conglomerate, the joint owner of a major furniture manufacturing concern, a
senior official of one of the major charities, a moderately successful
graphic artist, and me. Pity about me innit? Lets the side down a bit.
The recent incident only three miles from here, at Edlington, is quite
different to anything that ever happened when I was young though. We were up
for almost any sort of mischief, but we'd never dream of causing serious
hurt or loss. There was a background of basic decency.
I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from mainstream
society more than it ever has been. Their values are far removed from those
of the majority.
Bill
J G Miller
> I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
> underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from
> mainstream society more than it ever has been.
I thought that this underclass had actually grown larger under the
Faux LaboUr governments of Tory Bliar and Gordon Brown?
jamie powell
> The recent incident only three miles from here, at Edlington, is quite
> different to anything that ever happened when I was young though. We were
> up for almost any sort of mischief, but we'd never dream of causing
> serious hurt or loss. There was a background of basic decency.
I'm sure there was, but in today's "climate", the Police/Courts would have
criminalised you at the drop of a hat, which of course - after your
pseudo-trial at Salem Magistrates' Court - would have killed off your sense
of basic personal decency to a large extent and made you much worse.
> I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
> underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from
> mainstream society more than it ever has been. Their values are far
> removed from those of the majority.
Says who? The establishment's media? They're always looking for an excuse to
promote a surveillance society, because that's what the ruling establishment
wants to bring in.
Massive databases of DNA, fingerprints, personal, criminal and medical
history for every civillian, along with ID cards, blanket CCTV coverage of
public places - all this sort of stuff means big business deals and big
money changing hands.
Bill Wright
>
>> I think we have to face the fact that there is a numerically small
>> underclass that is now, for a variety of reasons, alienated from
>> mainstream society more than it ever has been. Their values are far
>> removed from those of the majority.
>
> Says who? The establishment's media?
there is a massive gulf between the value systems of 'them' and 'us'. This
goes right back to basics. Surely every parent tells their kids that
stealing is wrong; that cruelty is wrong; that effing and blinding is wrong;
that teachers and other adults should be respected? Well, actually, no they
don't. The kids don't have a chance because they are actively encouraged to
steal and be antisocial. You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the
lads. You soon realise that they were destined to end up in jail from the
moment they were born. A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they
simply go along with what they're told.
>They're always looking for an excuse to promote a surveillance society,
>because that's what the ruling establishment wants to bring in.
> Massive databases of DNA, fingerprints, personal, criminal and medical
> history for every civillian, along with ID cards, blanket CCTV coverage of
> public places - all this sort of stuff means big business deals and big
> money changing hands.
It's a worry of course, but I think you have an exagerated view. I don't
like the overweening state one little bit, but what's the alternative? I
know what I'd do, but I'll keep my peace.
Bill
jamie powell
> I am in contact with all sorts of people,
uhuh....
> and I can tell you that there is a massive gulf between the value systems
> of 'them' and 'us'. This goes right back to basics. Surely every parent
> tells their kids that stealing is wrong; that cruelty is wrong; that
> effing and blinding is wrong; that teachers and other adults should be
> respected? Well, actually, no they don't. The kids don't have a chance
> because they are actively encouraged to steal and be antisocial.
This is all a bit vague, so here's an equally vague response.
Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are nothing
new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) - such things
existed in the old days just as they exist now. They also transcend the
social classes although, where the middle and upper classes are concerned,
they may well manifest themselves in ways which you haven't been trained to
spot.
I don't know what you mean by 'them' and 'us' - are 'them' the so-called
chavs - the working-class teenagers who hang about on the streets? And 'us'
the decent folk I presume?
> You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the lads. You soon realise
> that they were destined to end up in jail from the moment they were born.
> A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they simply go along with what
> they're told.
Well, actually I kind of did (unlike you I suspect), when my best friend -
the one who got arrested for sending a few rude texts - was sent to a
probation office. I went with him, sat outside while he was interrogated for
an hour and talked to some people whom I felt very sorry for - they were
people just like you and me, with v. sad tales to tell.
There were a couple of twats in there though (both adults) - one guy waving
a knife around (and nobody batted an eyelid) and anoter who was drunk and
spent ten minutes repeatedly calling me a faggot.
[orwellian surveillance society]
> It's a worry of course, but I think you have an exagerated view. I don't
> like the overweening state one little bit, but what's the alternative?
Well, the state's media outlets have conditioned you into thinking that we
live in a nation of evil criminals - people who won't respond to anything
other than brute force, intensive state surveillance and imprisonment.
That's why you can't see any alternative.
> I know what I'd do, but I'll keep my peace.
Belt the living daylights out of them - am I right? How 'decent' of you if
so.
Bill Wright
>
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:4NmdnVzMbaVDZH3U...@pipex.net...
>
>> I am in contact with all sorts of people,
>
> uhuh....
Well, it's shorthand, but the fact is I'm a sociable sort of chap and I like
hear what people have to say. And I do see all sorts of people.
>
>> and I can tell you that there is a massive gulf between the value systems
>> of 'them' and 'us'. This goes right back to basics. Surely every parent
>> tells their kids that stealing is wrong; that cruelty is wrong; that
>> effing and blinding is wrong; that teachers and other adults should be
>> respected? Well, actually, no they don't. The kids don't have a chance
>> because they are actively encouraged to steal and be antisocial.
>
> This is all a bit vague,
No it isn't; it's very specific and clear. The last sentence is unequivocal.
so here's an equally vague response.
> Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are nothing
> new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) - such
> things existed in the old days just as they exist now.
Yes of course. Historically, crime has always been with us. I dare say the
goings-on in Victorian Britain would have made our hair curl.
What seems to have changed, I suppose, is the proportion of the population
who are alienated from the mainstream. I was brought up on a council estate,
and on the four streets, (I guess about 200 houses) there were perhaps three
families of criminals. Council estates nowadays are completely different.
There are so many people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they
just seem to have lost their way somehow.
>They also transcend the social classes although, where the middle and upper
>classes are concerned, they may well manifest themselves in ways which you
>haven't been trained to spot.
Don't worry, white collar crime is not invisible to me. In a way I'm
probably more aware of it than any other sort of crime.
>
> I don't know what you mean by 'them' and 'us' - are 'them' the so-called
> chavs - the working-class teenagers who hang about on the streets? And
> 'us' the decent folk I presume?
It was tongue in cheek. I was trying to emphasise that society FEELS
divided.
>
>
>> You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the lads. You soon realise
>> that they were destined to end up in jail from the moment they were born.
>> A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they simply go along with
>> what they're told.
>
> Well, actually I kind of did (unlike you I suspect)
What do you mean?
> [orwellian surveillance society]
>> It's a worry of course, but I think you have an exagerated view. I don't
>> like the overweening state one little bit, but what's the alternative?
>
> Well, the state's media outlets have conditioned you into thinking that we
> live in a nation of evil criminals - people who won't respond to anything
> other than brute force, intensive state surveillance and imprisonment.
> That's why you can't see any alternative.
I'm not conditioned by the state's media outlets. I view the majority of
what we're fed as being total bollocks. There's no greater cynic than me
when it comes to watching the news.
>
>> I know what I'd do, but I'll keep my peace.
>
> Belt the living daylights out of them - am I right? How 'decent' of you if
> so.
No, that's a silly idea. I was talking specifically about the need to
exclude possible terrorists from the UK.
Bill
J G Miller
> No, that's a silly idea. I was talking specifically about the need to
> exclude possible terrorists from the UK.
During the troubles in the occupied six counties of Ireland, did you advocate
barring Irish people, since they could all possibly be terrorists, from entering
England?
Have not all terrorist attacks in England since those of the Irish terrorists,
provisional IRA, been perpetrated by those born in England?
jamie powell
>> Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are
>> nothing new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) -
>> such things existed in the old days just as they exist now.
>
> Yes of course. Historically, crime has always been with us.
> Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many
> people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem to
> have lost their way somehow.
The state has failed them then. Still, I'm sure they make great scapegoats
for the police whenever a nearby window gets smashed or something.
> Don't worry, white collar crime is not invisible to me. In a way I'm
> probably more aware of it than any other sort of crime.
It's not just white collar crime. Everyone is capable of direct cruelty and
all the other things you mentioned - it can happen amongst 50 year olds at a
church meeting, just as it can happen amongst 'chavs' hanging around on a
street corner.
>>> You want to sit around in a YOI and talk to the lads. You soon realise
>>> that they were destined to end up in jail from the moment they were
>>> born. A lot of these kids aren't very bright, and they simply go along
>>> with what they're told.
>>
>> Well, actually I kind of did (unlike you I suspect)
> What do you mean?
You snipped the explanation. I sat around in a probation office - which is
very much like a YOI - and talked to the lads. I doubt you have, because the
image you have of them is unrealistic and consistent with media
brainwashing.
> I'm not conditioned by the state's media outlets. I view the majority of
> what we're fed as being total bollocks. There's no greater cynic than me
> when it comes to watching the news.
> I was talking specifically about the need to exclude possible terrorists
> from the UK.
In case they blow up anymore skyscrapers? Sorry, *what* were you just saying
about not being conditioned by the state's media outlets?....
J G Miller
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:GIOdnQ093Yz91XzU...@pipex.net...
>
>> There are so many people who seem to have no respect for themselves --
>> they just seem to have lost their way somehow.
>
> The state has failed them then.
Pardon?
Is it the responsibility of *the state* to ensure that people have
respect for themselves, and by extension, you are implying that it
is the responsibility of *the state* to ensure that people achieve
"success" and "affluence".
That may have been considered to be an obligation of *the state* in communist
proletarian dictatorships, but it is certainly not the case in capitalist
liberal bourgeois democracies.
And you would be one of the first to complain if *the state* was telling you
how to run your life and what job you should be doing.
Now you could argue that *the state* has failed in providing adequate
education, training, and employment opportunities through economic
regeneration of inner city areas, but that is a different issue to
the point you were addressing.
Bill Wright
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
news:1239526...@vo.lu...
> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 02:48:06 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
>
> > No, that's a silly idea. I was talking specifically about the need to
> > exclude possible terrorists from the UK.
>
> During the troubles in the occupied six counties of Ireland, did you
> advocate
> barring Irish people, since they could all possibly be terrorists, from
> entering
> England?
Just where did I say that barring a entire group of people was a good idea,
or feasible? I said we need to exclude possible terrorists.
Bill
Bill Wright
>
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:GIOdnQ093Yz91XzU...@pipex.net...
>
>>> Stealing, cruelty, swearing and lack of respect towards adults are
>>> nothing new amongst younger people (older people are no saints either) -
>>> such things existed in the old days just as they exist now.
>>
>> Yes of course. Historically, crime has always been with us.
>
>> Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many
>> people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem to
>> have lost their way somehow.
>
> The state has failed them then.
in this nanny state) to pull themselves up to a decent standard of living
and behaviour. We mustn't blame the state for everything. Lots of people do
escape from the sink estates and become good citizens. Lots remain on the
sink estates and are still good citizens.
>Still, I'm sure they make great scapegoats for the police whenever a nearby
>window gets smashed or something.
Can't see the police being interersted in a broken window.
>
>
>> Don't worry, white collar crime is not invisible to me. In a way I'm
>> probably more aware of it than any other sort of crime.
>
> It's not just white collar crime. Everyone is capable of direct cruelty
> and all the other things you mentioned - it can happen amongst 50 year
> olds at a church meeting
I'm afraid some church groups are smug and complacent, and do nothing to
help others. Of course many do reach out, but not all.
, just as it can happen amongst 'chavs' hanging around on a
> street corner.
I don't like this word 'chavs'. I've told my nephews off for using it. It's
divisive.
> You snipped the explanation. I sat around in a probation office - which is
> very much like a YOI - and talked to the lads. I doubt you have, because
> the image you have of them is unrealistic and consistent with media
> brainwashing.
The image I have of them is based on personal contact on many occasions, so
how can it be unrealistic? If you are saying that I'm so predjudiced that I
haven't learnt anything from these occasions well you're just plain wrong.
>> I was talking specifically about the need to exclude possible terrorists
>> from the UK.
>
> In case they blow up anymore skyscrapers? Sorry, *what* were you just
> saying about not being conditioned by the state's media outlets?....
No, in case they plant a car bomb in a Manchester shopping centre and kill
innocent people. The risks are so great that I'm afraid we will have to
sacrifice some civil liberties, just as always happens in wartime, for the
greater good. In the last war a lot of foreign nationals were interned for
the duration, innocent or not. I'm afraid it's come to that.
Bill
Bill Wright
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
The state throws training, education, and opportunity at deprived areas, and
many people benefit. But some don't and never will. You can lead a horse to
water . . .
Bill
J G Miller
> Just where did I say that barring a entire group of people was a good
> idea, or feasible? I said we need to exclude possible terrorists.
I did not say that you did.
What I am trying to determine is how you would proceed in determining who
was a possible terrorist and therefore whom you would exclude from entry.
Furthermore, you have not elaborated on what you think should be done
with regard to home grown possible terrorists.
Petert
wrote:
I suppose a start could be made by the UK Border types if they were to
refuse entry to anyone who's paperwork was not in order. It would
appear from recent press reports that they haven't yet adopted this as
part of their master plan to keep the populace of the UK safe
--
Cheers
Peter
J G Miller
> No, in case they plant a car bomb in a Manchester shopping centre and
> kill innocent people.
You are missing the point that such an action would not be done by people
coming into the country but by people who were born and raised in England.
Petert
wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:23:36 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
The police have recently arrested 12 people - eleven of whom are
nationals of Pakistan and are currently questioning 11 of them about
possible terrorist offences (they are of course innocent at present of
any such offences). The press reports that some of the possible
targets were shopping centres and a night club.
--
Cheers
Peter
J G Miller
> The police have recently arrested 12 people - eleven of whom are
> nationals of Pakistan and are currently questioning 11 of them about
> possible terrorist offences
How long have they been living in England though?
I would be very surprised to learn that all of them had only recently
(ie in the past few weeks) arrived in a plane at Ringway.
Bill Wright
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
news:1239556...@vo.lu...
The recent events concern people who are here on student visas. They may yet
be found to be innocent of course.
The UK nationals of Pakistani origin who have been found guilty of terrorism
in the past have in most cases been to Pakistan repeatedly for training.
Bill
Bill Wright
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:13:33 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
> > Just where did I say that barring a entire group of people was a good
> > idea, or feasible? I said we need to exclude possible terrorists.
>
> I did not say that you did.
>
> What I am trying to determine is how you would proceed in determining who
> was a possible terrorist and therefore whom you would exclude from entry.
up enormously. The number coming in from Pakistan should be restricted to
the number that the security services can watch closely. It isn't nice and
it isn't fair, but we can't take risks.
>
> Furthermore, you have not elaborated on what you think should be done
> with regard to home grown possible terrorists.
House arrest? Internment?
Bill
Petert
wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:20:22 +0100, Petert wrote:
Try not to be too surprised and fall off your chair then
The Daily Telegraph reported here:
That
Quote
Of the dozen men detained, eleven of them are Pakistani and arrived in
the UK on student visas at different times in the past six months.
End quote
Apparently, even though they were in the country on student visas two
suspects were arrested at the Clitheroe branch of Homebase, where they
worked as security guards.
--
Cheers
Peter
J G Miller
> The UK nationals of Pakistani origin who have been found guilty of
> terrorism in the past have in most cases been to Pakistan repeatedly for
> training.
There is no doubt that terrorists and training camps are located in Pakistan
and that Bin Laden is most probably hiding there. Furthermore, the Taleban
which NATO troops are fighting against in Afghanistan were no doubt originally
offshoots of the Taleban in Pakistan rather than being a purely Afghan
inspired creation.
This article explains why President Bush and Tory Bliar heaped praise on
Pakistan despite its duplicity in its tacit allowance of its territory
being used for terrorist purposes, as a base for launching strikes against
NATO forces in Afghnistan, now doubt harboring Ossama Bin Laden, and even
signing a peace agreement with the tribal leaders in Waziristan, where
the core of the Taleban is based, the rest being in neighboring Balochistan.
<http://www.southasiaanalysis.ORG/%5Cpapers20%5Cpaper1920.html>
Of course, one must be mindful that Pakistan has the bomb, and therefore
should always be shewn the respect due to members of the nuclear club.
Bill Wright
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
> On Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:30:59 +0100, Bill Wright wrote:
> Of course, one must be mindful that Pakistan has the bomb, and therefore
> should always be shewn the respect due to members of the nuclear club.
Not if we nuke them first.
Bill
(Calm down dear, it was a joke)
jamie powell
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
> On Sunday, April 12th, 2009 at 13:21:47h +0100, Jamie Robert Powell wrote:
>
> > "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> > news:GIOdnQ093Yz91XzU...@pipex.net...
> >
> >> There are so many people who seem to have no respect for
> themselves --
> >> they just seem to have lost their way somehow.
> >
>
> > The state has failed them then.
>
> Pardon?
*snip*
You were putting words into my mouth. If you wanted clarification of my
position, you should have asked me for it, instead of rambling on.
> Now you could argue that *the state* has failed in providing adequate
> education, training, and employment opportunities through economic
> regeneration of inner city areas, but that is a different issue to
> the point you were addressing.
No, it's not, and I agree with it.
Fact: We have one of the lowest standards of living in Western Europe - many
of our inner-city areas are dreadful poverty-stricken slumholes.
My opinion: Failing schools are part of the problem. The horrid way that
some of these young people are treated by a criminal justice system which
they should never have even been brought into contact with is another.
If you show people respect, give them a half-decent standard of living, stop
blanketly demonising their social class in the state-controlled media to
force them out of mainstream society, send them to a school which is run by
competent staff, teach them values of social inclusion (remember those?),
then maybe they might grow up with the background of personal inner decency
Bill talked about earlier.
jamie powell
> I take the view that individuals still have enough self-determination
> (even in this nanny state) to pull themselves up to a decent standard of
> living and behaviour. We mustn't blame the state for everything. Lots of
> people do escape from the sink estates and become good citizens. Lots
> remain on the sink estates and are still good citizens.
Let me guess... you've been round and done a survey?
You talked of 'them' and 'us' earlier - please clarify exactly what you mean
by 'them' so we can be more clear on this.
> Can't see the police being interersted in a broken window.
There's this little thing called performance targets.
>> It's not just white collar crime. Everyone is capable of direct cruelty
>> and all the other things you mentioned - it can happen amongst 50 year
>> olds at a church meeting
>
> I'm afraid some church groups are smug and complacent, and do nothing to
> help others. Of course many do reach out, but not all.
That's not the point I was making, as you well know :p
> I don't like this word 'chavs'. I've told my nephews off for using it.
> It's divisive.
*divisive* - that's rich coming from you, Mr 'them' and 'us'....
> The image I have of them is based on personal contact on many occasions,
> so how can it be unrealistic? If you are saying that I'm so predjudiced
> that I haven't learnt anything from these occasions well you're just plain
> wrong.
Were you acting like a complete twat in front of them, by any chance?
I'm fairly streetwise - I know how to get on the right side of these guys.
(I can act 'straight' when it suits me :)
>> In case they blow up anymore skyscrapers? Sorry, *what* were you just
>> saying about not being conditioned by the state's media outlets?....
> No, in case they plant a car bomb in a Manchester shopping centre and kill
> innocent people. The risks are so great that I'm afraid we will have to
> sacrifice some civil liberties, just as always happens in wartime, for the
> greater good. In the last war a lot of foreign nationals were interned for
> the duration, innocent or not. I'm afraid it's come to that.
Where's the evidence, Bill? It's a state-manufactured faux threat which is
being used to justify continued escalation of military aggression in the
middle east, combined with major loss of civil liberties back home.
jamie powell
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
Have you ever considered having "sucker" tattooed across your forehead?
(sucker = a person easily cheated, deceived, or imposed upon.)
Bill Wright
> Fact: We have one of the lowest standards of living in Western Europe -
> many of our inner-city areas are dreadful poverty-stricken slumholes.
> My opinion: Failing schools are part of the problem.
Kids are more influenced by their home environment than they are by the
school they attend. Yes, the schools could be better, but it will be to no
avail as long as the parents teach a feckless and irresponsible lifestyle.
The present government are making the teachers' jobs impossible, what with
pointless testing, vindictive inspection regimes, and absurd political
correctness.
When I was a junior school teacher I was usually in charge of a class of
about 30 kids. My orders were simple. Improve the literacy and numeracy of
all of them, make sure they know right from wrong, and for the rest of the
time do what you like. So every teacher could make full use of his or her
strengths. Nowadays the National Curriculum means that there's no time to go
down the side alleys that can fascinate kids so much. And all the testing
just causes stress and unhappiness. Teachers are treated like labourers, so
they have lost much of their professional pride.
Another thing. In those days if a kid was hurt or upset you could sit him on
your knee and give him a cuddle and sooth him. Try that now and you'd get
the sack.
>The horrid way that some of these young people are treated by a criminal
>justice system which they should never have even been brought into contact
>with is another.
> If you show people respect,
The trouble is we give everyone respect these days, even the scumbags. I
believe in respecting people as human beings, but beyond that it has to be
earned.
>give them a half-decent standard of living,
No! Give them the opportunity to give themselves a half-decent standard of
living. If they don't take it let them rot.
>stop blanketly demonising their social class in the state-controlled media
>to force them out of mainstream society, send them to a school which is run
>by competent staff, teach them values of social inclusion (remember
>those?), then maybe they might grow up with the background of personal
>inner decency Bill talked about earlier.
Bill
Bill Wright
>
> "Bill Wright" <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote in message
> news:m_adncWnm6Ifmn_U...@pipex.net...
>
>> I take the view that individuals still have enough self-determination
>> (even in this nanny state) to pull themselves up to a decent standard of
>> living and behaviour. We mustn't blame the state for everything. Lots of
>> people do escape from the sink estates and become good citizens. Lots
>> remain on the sink estates and are still good citizens.
>
> Let me guess... you've been round and done a survey?
> You talked of 'them' and 'us' earlier - please clarify exactly what you
> mean by 'them' so we can be more clear on this.
It's shorthand, and a gross generalisation, but basically 'us' is those who
pull their weight and 'them' are those who don't.
>
>
>> Can't see the police being interersted in a broken window.
>
> There's this little thing called performance targets.
Don't get no teampoints unless they detect the crime. What they gonna do,
fingerprint the brick?
>> The image I have of them is based on personal contact on many occasions,
>> so how can it be unrealistic? If you are saying that I'm so predjudiced
>> that I haven't learnt anything from these occasions well you're just
>> plain wrong.
>
> Were you acting like a complete twat in front of them, by any chance?
I don't think so. But it's plain that a person can't always tell when
they're acting like a complete twat.
> I'm fairly streetwise - I know how to get on the right side of these guys.
Such naivety.
> (I can act 'straight' when it suits me :)
I bet that's worth watching.
>> No, in case they plant a car bomb in a Manchester shopping centre and
>> kill innocent people. The risks are so great that I'm afraid we will have
>> to sacrifice some civil liberties, just as always happens in wartime, for
>> the greater good. In the last war a lot of foreign nationals were
>> interned for the duration, innocent or not. I'm afraid it's come to that.
>
> Where's the evidence, Bill? It's a state-manufactured faux threat which is
> being used to justify continued escalation of military aggression in the
> middle east, combined with major loss of civil liberties back home.
7/7. 9/11.
Bill
J G Miller
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/lawandorder/5135393/Terror-plot-Neighbours-surprise-that-such-nice-ordinary-lads-had-been-arrested.html
Thanks for the link.
> Of the dozen men detained, eleven of them are Pakistani and arrived in
> the UK on student visas at different times in the past six months.
Just shows that with the commercialization of the universities in England,
they will let anybody in now.
> Apparently, even though they were in the country on student visas two
> suspects were arrested at the Clitheroe branch of Homebase, where they
> worked as security guards.
Another complete failure in government policy -- go to most countries on
a student visa and you are not allowed to engage in paid employment other
than in work related to your university course (eg as a teaching assistant).
J G Miller
> Have you ever considered having "sucker" tattooed across your forehead?
> (sucker = a person easily cheated, deceived, or imposed upon.)
Your suggestion is neither helpful nor relevant.
Roderick Stewart
> > Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many
> > people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem to
> > have lost their way somehow.
>
> The state has failed them then. Still, I'm sure they make great scapegoats
> for the police whenever a nearby window gets smashed or something.
No. Their parents have failed them.
Rod.
--
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/
charles
> Thanks for the link.
While I blame the current (and previous) governments for a lot of things, I
can't see they can be blamed for this. The law doesn't allow these
"students" to take a job. The blame must lie with their employers for not
checking.
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
charles
Roderick Stewart <rj...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <grsmbd$o69$1...@aioe.org>, Jamie powell wrote:
> > > Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many
> > > people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem
> > > to have lost their way somehow.
> >
> > The state has failed them then. Still, I'm sure they make great
> > scapegoats for the police whenever a nearby window gets smashed or
> > something.
> No. Their parents have failed them.
True: when they go to school it is probably for a maximum of 6 hours a day
and not for 52 weeks a year. The parents therefore have responsibility for
them for over 75% of their time.
However, our social security system actively encourages the "single
mother" situation. That's where the state lets everybody down.
Petert
Indeed. I understand that employers who employ such people are liable
for a fine of 10,000 quid per illegal employee
J G Miller
> The law doesn't allow these "students" to take a job.
Obviously I misunderstood -- I thought that for some reason the law
in England and Wales was permitting people on student visas to engage
in paid employment.
> The blame must lie with their employers for not checking.
Agreed.
Will the company employing them merely get their wrists slapped in court
and told not to do it again?
Peter Duncanson
Maybe, but:
http://www.skillclear.co.uk/students.asp
2. What can you do whilst studying?
Although students studying here are not normally allowed to work in
the UK, they can work without permission as long as they do not work
for more than 20 hours per week or start a business and the work
they do is not a full time job.
I worked in a university until I retired and I can assure you that most
International Students (i.e. from outside the EU) are here to work hard
for their degrees. They are of considerable financial benefit to
universities and to the UK economy as a whole because they pay fees that
are about three times what UK and EU students pay. I see no problem with
them working part-time to support themselves.
From:
http://www.hepi.ac.uk/downloads/32%20Economic%20effects%20of%20international%20students.pdf
The Economic Costs and Benefits of
International Students
Higher Education Policy Institute
July 2007
Figure 2 shows that in the academic year 2004-05 there were 200,000
non-EU international students in the UK.
Combining the figures for tuition fees and other expenditure, the
total net injection into the economy by international students in
2004-05 was around £3.74 billion: £866 million by EU students and
£2.87 billion by non-EU students.
There may be a need to tighten up some procedures but not to the extent
of killing off this highly successful business.
Bill Wright
"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk> wrote in
message news:VA.0000070...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
> In article <grsmbd$o69$1...@aioe.org>, Jamie powell wrote:
>> > Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many
>> > people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem to
>> > have lost their way somehow.
>>
>> The state has failed them then. Still, I'm sure they make great
>> scapegoats
>> for the police whenever a nearby window gets smashed or something.
>
> No. Their parents have failed them.
The primary responsibility for bringing kids up lies with the parents. The
state should only be involved in cases where the parents are grossly
negligent.
Bill
Bill Wright
"charles" <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:504b4b07...@charleshope.demon.co.uk...
> However, our social security system actively encourages the "single
> mother" situation. That's where the state lets everybody down.
>
> --
> From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
How many times have I heard it: "I only got pregnant so I could get a flat."
Bill
charles
Bill Wright <insertmybu...@f2s.com> wrote:
you make my point
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
jamie powell
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
I was saying that you're a bit gullible for buying into the whole "ph33r da
evil terrorists" and "bin laden he is da evil 1" mantra.
jamie powell
> It's shorthand, and a gross generalisation, but basically 'us' is those
> who pull their weight and 'them' are those who don't.
That's still too general. :p
> Don't get no teampoints unless they detect the crime. What they gonna do,
> fingerprint the brick?
Wouldn't surprise me. Or just use CCTV to say X was in the area at the
time - look at all this other stuff he's done in the past Mr Magistrate -
he's blatently done this too. (Yes, they are allowed to say that since new
laws in 2003.)
>> I'm fairly streetwise - I know how to get on the right side of these
>> guys.
> Such naivety.
Well, I got held at knifepoint all by myself last year, and managed to
negotiate my way out of it without giving up any cash, so I must have *some*
skills in this area. :)
>> (I can act 'straight' when it suits me :)
> I bet that's worth watching.
I'm quite good at it actually. Since it's relevant to this thread, I also
had to do it when I appeared as a witness in court, because my friend's
defence lawyer said "homophobia is still rife within the criminal courts" (I
knew that already).
>> Where's the evidence, Bill? It's a state-manufactured faux threat which
>> is being used to justify continued escalation of military aggression in
>> the middle east, combined with major loss of civil liberties back home.
>
> 7/7. 9/11.
Ah yes, 9/11, the day a few fictional scapegoats with boxcutters managed to
1) temporarily disable the US Military's rogue aircraft interception
procedures,
2) temporarily disable The Pentagon's automated anti-aircraft ground-to-air
missile defence system
3) after they were already dead, change the laws of physics to make steel
buildings behave like cardboard for a few minutes.
So you read a lot of newspapers then, Bill?
Petert
<cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Agreed, but the government should have a process in place whereby they
check with the various colleges that the students are actually showing
up - else require non-attendance to be rported to the immigration
authorities by the colleges concerned.
There are many things that can be done
--
Cheers
Peter
Petert
Indeed, but there is a risk that the collehges will chase the money -
and not be that bothered about the details, as appears to be the case
now
--
Cheers
Peter
Petert
Are you saying Bin Laden isn't dangerous? if so I would appreciate
seeing your rationale for such a belief
--
Cheers
Peter
jamie powell
"Roderick Stewart" <rj...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk> wrote in
message news:VA.0000070...@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
>> > Council estates nowadays are completely different. There are so many
>> > people who seem to have no respect for themselves -- they just seem to
>> > have lost their way somehow.
>>
>> The state has failed them then. Still, I'm sure they make great
>> scapegoats
>> for the police whenever a nearby window gets smashed or something.
>
> No. Their parents have failed them.
And why have their parents failed them?
Adrian
Why do you believe those arrested weren't attending college?
--
There is no god, so stop worrying and enjoy your life.
Petert
No idea whatsoever - too many possible reasons.
--
Cheers
Peter
Petert
I can't believe you've asked that.
--
Cheers
Peter
jamie powell
"Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
news:34d6u45lluns5ektg...@4ax.com...
> Are you saying Bin Laden isn't dangerous? if so I would appreciate
> seeing your rationale for such a belief
I've expressed my views in this group already - look on google group
archives if you missed it.
Or just search the web for "9/11 truth", keep an open mind, and do a bit of
research.
jamie powell
Why not?
We're discussing a group vaguely defined by Bill as "people who seem to have
no respect for themselves -- they just seem to have lost their way somehow."
It seems like a perfectly fair question to me.
charles
jamie powell <jami...@excite.com> wrote:
> "Petert" <peter....@brightchro.me.uk> wrote in message
> news:34d6u45lluns5ektg...@4ax.com...
> > Are you saying Bin Laden isn't dangerous? if so I would appreciate
> > seeing your rationale for such a belief
> I've expressed my views in this group already - look on google group
> archives if you missed it. Or just search the web for "9/11 truth",
I did that a few years ago and found the main proponent of the view was a
university lecturer (yes - called a professor over there) in Nuclear
Physics who'd got his doctorate because he'd 'proved' that Jesus visited
Mexico between his Resurection and his Ascension. It's all a Mormon plot.
jamie powell
> I did that a few years ago and found the main proponent of the view was a
> university lecturer (yes - called a professor over there) in Nuclear
> Physics who'd got his doctorate because he'd 'proved' that Jesus visited
> Mexico between his Resurection and his Ascension. It's all a Mormon plot.
That's nice dear, now have a nice cup of tea.
Peter Duncanson
Quite. Any sensible and properly trained and briefed terrorist will
behave in such a way as *not* draw attention to him/herself.
J G Miller
Surely that is made clear in one the news reports?
QUOTE
Witnesses said another raid was at Liverpool's John Moores University.
Footage recorded on a mobile phone showed armed police standing over
a man lying on the floor of a university building.
Suddenly there was all shouting and commotion outside so I went to
the window and saw about eight police officers," said student
Craig Ahmed, 24.
"One of them was armed and was pointing his gun at two men who were
ordered to lie face down on the ground."
UNQUOTE
J G Miller
> I was saying that you're a bit gullible for buying into the whole "ph33r
> da evil terrorists" and "bin laden he is da evil 1" mantra.
I only made a passing reference to Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan.
You have successfully diverted attention away from the established
fact that Pakistan is a base for terrorism and that despite this,
both President Bush and Tory Bliar heaped praises upon the former
military regime in Islamabad.
One could easily start to think that you prefer making irrelevant
ad hominem attacks rather than engaging in constructive dialog.
jamie powell
> When I was a junior school teacher I was usually in charge of a class of
> about 30 kids
Were you sacked for being an incompetent, ruddy-faced, racist cunt by any
chance?
Petert
wrote:
How does the above quote answer the question posed above?;
quote
Why do you believe those arrested weren't attending college?
end quote
--
Cheers
Peter
J G Miller
> 1) temporarily disable the US Military's rogue aircraft interception
> procedures
> 2) temporarily disable The Pentagon's automated anti-aircraft
> ground-to-air missile defence system
Just what do you think caused Flight 93 to crash in Shanksville, PA?
> 3) after they were already dead, change the laws of physics to make
> steel buildings behave like cardboard for a few minutes.
No, what it proves is how much more prone to failure the World Trade Center
buildings, were with their lightweight perimeter tube design, with poorly
installed and maintained fire resistant cladding, in comparison to the
traditionally constructed steel- or concrete-framed structures.
<http://www.tms.ORG/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html>
I notice that once again you prefer to move the discussion off topic to
your pet obsession with promoting 9/11 conspiracy theories.
jamie powell
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
> On Monday, April 13th, 2009 13:31:52h +0100, Jamie Robert Powell wrote:
> > I was saying that you're a bit gullible for buying into the whole
> "ph33r
> > da evil terrorists" and "bin laden he is da evil 1" mantra.
>
> I only made a passing reference to Bin Laden hiding in Pakistan.
>
> You have successfully diverted attention away from the established
> fact that Pakistan is a base for terrorism
Because the media told you so?
How do you define terrorism, and where's the evidence for it in Pakistan?
Footage of a few twats burning American flags, repeated daily on the
mainstream news?
> and that despite this,
> both President Bush and Tory Bliar heaped praises upon the former
> military regime in Islamabad.
Knowing full well that there aren't any civillians who pose a threat to the
west there, and seeing potential business opportunities, yeah, they would do
that.
jamie powell
"J G Miller" <mil...@yoyo.ORG> wrote in message
> On Monday, April 13th, 2009 13:45:58 +0100, Jamie Robert Powell
> fantasized:
You're the fantasist here, you media-brainwashed moron.
> > 1) temporarily disable the US Military's rogue aircraft interception
> > procedures
>
> > 2) temporarily disable The Pentagon's automated anti-aircraft
> > ground-to-air missile defence system
>
> Just what do you think caused Flight 93 to crash in Shanksville, PA?
The official story = "the passengers overpowered the evil hijackers and
crashed it out of harm's way".
Now here's a task for you - find me some news pictures of the Shanksville
plane wreckage.
(clue: there wasn't any. Just a small hole dug in the ground, which already
had blades of grass growing in it, and a few bits of uncharred paper lying
around.)
> > 3) after they were already dead, change the laws of physics to make
> > steel buildings behave like cardboard for a few minutes.
>
> No, what it proves is how much more prone to failure the World Trade
> Center
> buildings, were with their lightweight perimeter tube design, with poorly
> installed and maintained fire resistant cladding, in comparison to the
> traditionally constructed steel- or concrete-framed structures.
They were massively over-designed. It *wasn't* a perimeter tube design. I
can't be bothered reading that 4th rate webpage you linked to. We've been
through this before and you haven't listened.
> I notice that once again you prefer to move the discussion off topic to
> your pet obsession with promoting 9/11 conspiracy theories.
It's highly-relevant when morons like you start parroting what they've heard
on the news as if it were all true and proven.
Mike Thomas
LOL! Look out Bill, if you don't agree with him, Jamie's going to squeem
and squeem and squeem until he's sick.