OT: Television history
Bill Wright
running (what invoice? -- it didn't arrive!) I was staggering about in
the dark attic desperately looking for something to drink amongst the
straw-lined cases of dusty bottles laid down by great-grandfather when
he wasn't laying the female servants down in the attic bedroom next
door. I found a box of old magazines and lit one to provide light, but
noticed something of interest on the cover and quickly extinguished it
with the help of a vintage port. After I had downed a bottle of 1787
Chateau Lafite I felt much better and took the magazine and a couple of
others down to the scanning room. The results are below. Better start a
new paragraph now to satisfy the paragraph obsessive.
Please be very careful though and think carefully before you double
click on any of these links. They all will cause your computer to start
the download of a massive file. Some of these files exceed 1MB! (For
those of you who aren't IT-savvy that's almost as much as you can get on
an HD floppy, and more than you could get on one of the old SD ones. God
weren't they old fashioned?). Paragraph alert!
If your internet connection is via a mile of wet string like mine the
process might take so long that your computer could become obsolete and
be taken to a technology museum to be laughed at by young people before
the download is complete. Since you will have become comatose waiting
and watching the endless rotation of the hourglass your mummified
carcass will no doubt become part of the exhibit, so remember to wear a
Coca Cola teeshirt so your descendants can rake in some rights fees.
Paragraph alert!
What's more, if you do complete a download, those of you using Baird
Televisors as computer monitors might find that the 2,000 x 1,500 pixel
size of these files might cause the whirling lens disk
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/albertsattic/133.shtml#01
of your televisor to accelerate in an attempt to maintain sync and
actually achieve a rim velocity exceeding the speed of light. This could
cause a bit of a time/space anomaly in your local area, casting you
and your neighbours on both sides back to the 1950s, where ironically
the documents you were attempting to see would be far more relevant
than they are now. Paragraph alert!
OK, fill in your Method Statement, submit your Health and Safety Policy
Document, promise not to drill holes in any asbestos, put on your
Personal Protective Equipment, and go for it!
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/Attic%20commentary.doc
Practical Television March 1951:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20March%2051/Thumbnail.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20March%2051/Cover.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20March%2051/adverts.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20March%2051/Editorial.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20March%2051/Beveridge%20Report%201.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20March%2051/Beveridge%20Report%202.jpg
Practical Television January 1960:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Jan%2060/thumbnail.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Jan%2060/cover.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Jan%2060/Making%20TV%20aerials%201.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Jan%2060/Making%20TV%20aerials%202.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Jan%2060/Caithness%20and%20Orkney.jpg
Practical Television December 1961:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Dec%2061/thumbnail.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Dec%2061/cover.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Dec%2061/Bands%20IV%20%26%20V.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Dec%2061/UHF%20ae%201.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20Dec%2061/UHF%20ae%202.jpg
Bill
Steve Terry
news:iaijg1$2i6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
<snip>
> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11023364/Mike%20Brown/PT%20March%2051/Beveridge%20Report%202.jpg
>
>
IMHO giving the Welsh a transmitter at Wenvo would be simply a waste
Everyone knows Tele-visors will be wasted on them as they don't have
any spare time, all their time taken digging up and washing coal.
Steve Terry
--
Quidco cashback Sign-up Bonus of £1.25 when you signup at:
http://www.quidco.com/user/613515/55307
Woody
Close shave though.......
--
Woody
harrogate three at ntlworld dot com
Steve Thackery
> OK, fill in your Method Statement, submit your Health and Safety Policy
> Document, promise not to drill holes in any asbestos, put on your
> Personal Protective Equipment, and go for it!
Mercuric chloride and sodium cyanide. Lovely!
SteveT
Steve Thackery
Some of this stuff is definitely worth archiving. In order to make the
text searchable, you need to OCR it, of course.
Should you be interested, I've found that ABBYY Finereader 10 does a
great job. It offers a number of options, but I recommend scanning to
a searchable PDF image. This keeps the original appearance of the
page, so it looks just like your .jpg pictures, but creates an
invisible, searchable text "layer" behind it. Best of both worlds.
Also, the search facilities provided by Adobe Reader are pretty good -
you can search across a whole folder of documents at a time.
I've had to get strict about throwing some of my magazine archives
away, but scanning and OCRing the interesting bits is a good thing to
do.
Mind you, it can get tedious if you've got lots to do.
SteveT
Bill Wright
Bill
Bill Wright
archived, and OCR would be the way to go -- or at least, one of several
ways to go. But I've got so much of this stuff, and I guess what I've
got is a tiny fraction of what exists. It would be a truly herculean
task. I'm feeling the weight of this sort of thing at the moment, as I
have just completed scanning a selection of the old pics from one branch
of the family. That job took 15 hours!
Regarding OCR, I used with my newish Epson A3 scanner's bundled software
for the first time a few weeks ago. I was astonished -- and somewhat
unnerved -- to see that the OCR page reproduced the original page
layout, including actual fonts, sizes, justification, line spacing, etc,
so exactly that I actually couldn't tell the editable scan from the
original.
The Albert's Attic section of wrightsaerials.tv has a lot of printed
material. If anyone has any other old stuff I'd be very grateful for a
scan. I try to restrict it to aerial-relevant items, plus the growth of
the transmission network.
By the way did the download damage your televisor?
Bill
Java Jive
wrote:
>
> Some of this stuff is definitely worth archiving. In order to make the
> text searchable, you need to OCR it, of course.
>
> Should you be interested, I've found that ABBYY Finereader 10 does a
> great job. It offers a number of options, but I recommend scanning to
> a searchable PDF image.
Aaargh! No!
Any tabular or other structured data on the pages will lose all their
structure!
> This keeps the original appearance of the
> page, so it looks just like your .jpg pictures, but creates an
> invisible, searchable text "layer" behind it. Best of both worlds.
Bill, go here ...
http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/broadcast/guidance/tech-guidance/81plan.pdf
... and try to copy and paste the data in that pdf into, say, a
spreadsheet, or even just Notepad, and see what a hopeless mess you
end up with.
> Also, the search facilities provided by Adobe Reader are pretty good -
> you can search across a whole folder of documents at a time.
Except that the dialogue boxes are unreadable if your desktop colours
are set to have white text on a black background. AR9 also insists on
randomly splattering your desktop with different windows for each
document you open, instead of putting them all in one window.
> I've had to get strict about throwing some of my magazine archives
> away, but scanning and OCRing the interesting bits is a good thing to
> do.
Yes, OCR, indeed any form of data digitisation - OCR and correcting
misreads, digitising video and correcting blemishes, digitising audio
and removing scratches - they're all bloody tedious to do,
especially if you're determined to do the best job that you can.
--
=========================================================
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
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Terry Casey
ja...@evij.com.invalid says...
>
<snip>
>
> Bill, go here ...
>
> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/broadcast/guidance/tech-guidance/81plan.pdf
>
> ... and try to copy and paste the data in that pdf into, say, a
> spreadsheet, or even just Notepad, and see what a hopeless mess you
> end up with.
>
Charles, go here ...
http://www.pdftoexcelonline.com/
... and give it your Ofcom pdf to digest ...
I've just tried it and all the tables look perfect (though I haven't
proof read all of it ...
The Footnotes to the tables are missing because they're obviousl;y
treated as text rather than data ...
... so I've just fed it to ...
... to see what happens. It isn't instantaneous - your pdf is uploaded
and you get the .xls or .doc file back by e-mail, so I haven't got it
yet ...
--
Terry
Terry Casey
kt...@example.invalid says...
Excellent! It looked so good that I thought I was looking at the .pdf by
mistake!
Hats off to Nitro pdf. If that document really is as hard to disassemble
as you say, they've done a superb job - and it's free!
The only thing missing is the transmitter location map - which could be
copied from the pdf if wanted (it seems to be in two sections, by the
way).
The Excel version would be useful for sorting information, etc., one
large A-Z list, for example. (I note that it has a problem with the
horizontal alignment with Rowridge but the .doc version is perfect.)
(I've sent you a copy of the .doc version by e-mail)
--
Terry
Java Jive
<kt...@example.invalid> wrote:
> In article <MPG.2737a8941...@news.virginmedia.com>,
> kt...@example.invalid says...
> >
> > Charles, go here ...
> >
> > http://www.pdftoexcelonline.com/
> >
> > ... and give it your Ofcom pdf to digest ...
> >
> > I've just tried it and all the tables look perfect (though I haven't
> > proof read all of it ...
> >
> > The Footnotes to the tables are missing because they're obviousl;y
> > treated as text rather than data ...
So an originally copyrighted and closed source format, PDF, creates a
f*ck up. Consequently, or so I presume, when the format is thrown
open, some poor sod(s) feel(s) sufficiently exasperated to write a
good program to clean up the f*ck up, instead of spending
his/her/their time and talents doing something more interesting.
Wouldn't it be more to the point not to make the f*ck up in the first
place?
Why not if possible scan directly to a structured format, the choice
depending on what the OCR software will do, and what the data is
ultimately wanted for?
I accept that I was probably a bit harsh on Bill, as I haven't seen
the articles to which he referred, and it may be that there is
insufficient structured data in them to worry. I was just trying to
steer people away from a knee-jerk reaction that because a document is
destined for the web, it must be in a pile of sh*te format like PDF.
> > ... so I've just fed it to ...
> >
> > http://www.pdftoword.com/
> >
> > ... to see what happens. It isn't instantaneous - your pdf is uploaded
> > and you get the .xls or .doc file back by e-mail, so I haven't got it
> > yet ...
>
> Excellent! It looked so good that I thought I was looking at the .pdf by
> mistake!
Word is a half-way case. If you choose Save As Text in Word, the
result looks pretty much as it does when you do the same thing in
Acrobat Reader, the tabular structure is entirely lost, as appended,
but if you copy'n'paste the table directly the structure is preserved.
That at least is good, but if you're processing a load of documents to
extract data, you don't want to have to load each file manually to do
it, you want to be able to run a simple conversion that works on
batches of files and outputs the data as something that preferably is
a de facto standard and open source, such as CSV, TSV, XML, or JSON.
Appendix - Word version saved as text:
Digital Switchover
Transmitter Details
Existing 81-Site Plan
Issue 2.0
Issued: 24 October 2007
Digital Switchover Transmitter Details: Existing 81-Site Plan
This document contains details of the transmission characteristics
which the 81 transmitters already carrying digital services will adopt
at digital switchover. Information on each transmitter's dependent
relay stations will be issued separately, on a region-by region basis.
This information is primarily intended to help systems installers make
initial preparations for switchover by highlighting those transmitters
where frequency allocations and aerial group requirements are likely
to change.
A key to column headings is provided in the Glossary.
Please note that although we anticipate that this frequency plan will
remain relatively stable in the run-up to switchover, it may prove
necessary to make changes to some aspects of the plan with the aim of
maximising coverage across the UK. If you would like to be kept
informed of any changes, please join our digital transmitter mailing
list by sending an email
to broadcast...@ofcom.org.uk, with the word 'subscribe' as the
message subject.
Disclaimer: While every reasonable effort is made to ensure that the
information provided in this document is accurate, no guarantees for
the currency or accuracy of information are or can be made. The
information contained in this document is provided without any
representation or endorsement made and without warranty of any kind,
whether express or implied.
1
Existing 81-Site Plan
Site Name (Region)
NGR
PSB
Multiplexes
COM
Multiplexes
ERP
(kW)
Aerial
Group
Anglia
Sandy Heath
TL204494
21
24
27
48
51
52
200
WH
Sudbury
TL913376
41
44
47
56
58
60
100
EH
Tacolneston
TM130957
55
59
62
42
45
50
100
EH
Border
Caldbeck
NY299425
25
28
30
23
26
29
100
50
AH
Caldbeck Scotland
NY299425
22
24
27
100
50
AH
Selkirk
NT500294
55
59
62
53
57
60
10
5
C/DH
Central
Brierley Hill
SO916856
53
57
60
55
59
62
2
C/DV
Bromsgrove
SO947730
23
26
30
41
44
47
0.4
KV
Fenton
SJ902451
21
24
27
22
25
28
2
1
AV
Lark Stoke
SP187426
23
26
30
41
44
47
1.3
KV
Malvern
SO774464
53
57
60
55
59
62
0.4
C/DV
Nottingham
SK503435
21
24
27
48
51
52
0.4
WV
Oxford
SP567105
53
57
60
55
59
62
100
50
C/DH
Ridge Hill
SO630333
22
25
28
21
24
27
20
10
AH
Sutton Coldfield
SK113003
43
46
50
42
45
49
200
BH
The Wrekin
SJ629082
23
26
30
41
44
47
20
10
KH
Waltham
SK809233
54
58
61
29
56
57
50
25
WH
Granada
Lancaster
SD490662
21
24
27
22
25
28
2
AV
Pendle Forest
SD825383
22
25
28
21
24
27
0.1
AV
Saddleworth
SD987049
42
45
49
48
51
52
0.4
BV
Storeton
SJ314841
22
25
28
23
26
29
0.56
AV
Winter Hill
SD660144
54
59
62
55
58
61
100
C/DH
2
Site Name (Region)
NGR
PSB
Multiplexes
COM
Multiplexes
ERP
(kW)
Aerial
Group
London
Crystal Palace
TQ339712
23
26
30
22
25
28
200
AH
Guildford
SU974486
43
46
49
48
52
56
2
EV
Hemel Hempstead
TL087044
41
44
47
55
59
62
2
EV
Reigate
TQ256521
53
57
60
21
24
27
2
WV
Meridian
Bluebell Hill
TQ757613
43
46
54
45
48
61
20
EH
Dover
TR273397
50
51
53
55
59
62
80
40
C/DH
Hannington
SU527568
42
45
51
41
44
47
50
25
BHa
Hastings
TQ806100
22
25
28
23
26
30
1
0.5
AV
Heathfield
TQ566220
47
49
52
42
44
41
20
BH
Midhurst
SU912249
55
58
61
50
59
62
20
10
C/DH
Rowridgeb
SZ447865
21
21
24
24
27
27
22
22
25
25
28
28
200
50
200
AH AH
AV
Salisbury
SU136285
53
57
60
55
59
62
2
C/DV
Tunbridge Wells
TQ607439
47
49
52
41
42
44
4
BV
Whitehawk Hill
TQ329045
53
57
60
48
51
56
4
C/DV
STV Central
Black Hill
NS831645
43
46
50
41
44
47
100
BH
Craigkelly
NT233872
21
24
27
42
45
49
20
10
WH
Darvel
NS557341
22
25
28
23
26
29
20
10
AH
Rosneathc
NS258811
54
54
58
58
61
61
53
53
57
57
60
60
2
0.008
C/DH C/DV
Torosay
NM703357
22
25
28
23
26
29
4
AV
a Hannington viewers are at present recommended to use Group E
aerials for analogue reception. Group E aerials will be suitable for
receiving post-switchover services broadcast in Group B
b Rowridge will broadcast both horizontally and vertically polarised
signals for all six multiplexes after switchover. All vertically
polarised signals will be at an ERP of 200kW. The horizontally
polarised
signals will be broadcast at 200 kW on channels 21, 24 & 27, and 50kW
on channels 22, 25 & 28. c In addition to the main horizontally
polarised signals at 2kW, the Rosneath transmitter will also broadcast
a separate beam at 0.008kW vertically polarised. This is intended to
improve reception in Rosneath itself.
3
Site Name (Region)
NGR
PSB
Multiplexes
COM
Multiplexes
ERP
(kW)
Aerial
Group
STV North
Angus
NO394407
53
57
60
54
58
61
20
10
C/DH
Bressay
HU503387
22
25
28
21
24
27
2
AV
Durris
NO764899
22
25
28
23
26
29
100
50
AH
Eitshal
NB305303
23
26
29
22
25
28
20
10
AH
Keelylang Hill
HY377102
43
46
50
42
45
49
20
10
BH
Knockmore
NJ321497
23
26
29
53
57
60
20
10
WH
Rosemarkie
NH761622
42
45
49
43
46
50
20
10
BH
Rumster Forest
ND197385
21
24
27
30
59
62
20
10
WH
Tyne Tees
Bilsdale
SE553962
23
26
29
43
46
50
100
50
WH
Chatton
NU105264
42
45
49
41
44
47
20
10
BH
Fenham
NZ216648
21
24
27
22
25
28
0.4
AV
Pontop Pike
NZ147527
54
58
61
55
59
62
100
50
C/DH
Ulster
Brougher Mountain
IH350527
22
25
28
21
24
27
20
2
AH
Divis
IJ287750
21
24
27
23
26
29
100
50
AH
Limavady
IC711296
55
59
62
54
58
61
20
10
C/DH
Wales
Aberdare
SO034012
21
24
27
22
25
28
0.1
AV
Blaenplwyf
SN569756
21
24
27
22
25
28
40
10
AH
Carmel
SN576153
53
57
60
54
58
61
20
10
C/DH
Ferryside
SN317104
21
30
24
27
-
-
0.025
0.005
AV
Kilvey Hill
SS671940
23
26
29
22
25
28
2
AV
Llanddona
SH582810
53
57
60
43
46
50
20
10
EH
4
Site Name (Region)
NGR
PSB
Multiplexes
COM
Multiplexes
ERP
(kW)
Aerial
Group
Wales (cont)
Moel y Parc
SJ123701
42
45
49
48
51
52
20
10
BH
Pontypool
ST284990
23
26
29
22
25
28
0.05
AV
Presely
SN172306
43
46
50
42
45
49
20
10
BH
Wenvoe
ST110741
41
44
47
42
45
49
100
50
BH
West
Bristol Ilchester Crescent
ST577700
41
44
47
42
45
49
0.2
0.1
BV
Bristol Kings Weston
ST547775
43
46
50
53
57
60
0.2
EV
Mendip
ST564488
54
58
61
48
52
56
100
C/DH
Ridge Hill West
SO630333
29
20
AH
Westcountry
Beacon Hill
SX857619
53
57
60
42
45
51
20
10
EH
Caradon Hill
SX273707
22
25
28
21
24
27
100
50
AH
Huntshaw Cross
SS527220
55
59
62
48
52
56
20
10
C/DH
Plympton
SX530555
54
58
61
42
45
56
0.4
EV
Redruth
SW690394
41
44
47
48
51
52
20
10
BH
Stockland Hill
ST222014
23
26
29
22
25
28
50
25
AH
Yorkshire
Belmont
TF218836
22
25
28
30
53
60
150
50
100
WH
Chesterfield
SK382764
23
26
29
43
46
50
0.8
0.4
WV
Emley Moor
SE222128
41
44
47
48
51
52
174
BH
Idle
SE164374
21
24
27
42
45
49
0.05
WV
Keighley
SE068443
54
58
61
53
57
60
2
C/DV
Olivers Mount
TA040869
53
57
60
54
58
61
2
1
C/DV
Sheffield
SK324870
21
24
27
42
45
49
1
WV
5
Glossary
Site Name (Region)
The name of the transmitter site. Transmitters are grouped according
to the ITV regional service they broadcast (shown in bold), and this
will determine their place in the digital switchover
sequence.
NGR
The location of the transmitter site, in Ordnance Survey National
Grid Reference (Landranger) format.
PSB Multiplexes / COM Multiplexes
The UHF channel numbers which will be used by the Public
Service Broadcaster (PSB) multiplexes and the Commercial (COM)
multiplexes at this site after switchover. The nominal centre
frequency, Fc (in Megahertz) of the multiplex can be calculated using
Fc=8n+306, where n is the UHF channel number. See below for more
information on multiplex names.
Multiplex Channels colour coding
Where individual multiplexes use channels which are outside the
suggested aerial group for reception of the existing analogue services
(excluding Channel 5), they are shown shaded in
yellow. See below for more information on aerial groups.
ERP
The Effective Radiated Power of each multiplex, in kilowatts
(kW), which will be adopted after switchover. Where differing power
levels will be used at a particular site, each power is shown
vertically aligned with the corresponding multiplex channel numbers.
Note that certain multiplexes at some sites may not adopt full- power
transmissions immediately at switchover: see the note on
Transitional Transmission Characteristics on page 7.
Aerial Group
Suggested aerial group for reception of all multiplexes from this
transmitter after digital switchover. See below for more information
on aerial groups. The final character in this column indicates whether
signals are horizontally (H) or vertically (V) polarised.
Aerial Group Colour codes
At switchover, all digital multiplexes will fall within the suggested
aerial group for reception of the existing analogue services
(excluding Channel 5). If aerials are in good condition,
replacement will generally not be required.
At switchover, one or more digital multiplexes will fall outside the
suggested aerial group for reception of the existing analogue services
(excluding Channel 5). Therefore a replacement aerial of a different
group may be required. If householders have already replaced their
aerials to receive digital television or are receiving digital
television through their analogue aerial reliably
prior to switchover, replacement should not be needed.
6
Multiplex Names
This guide indicates only which frequencies are to be allocated to
multiplexes carrying the public service channels (PSB multiplexes) and
other (COM multiplexes). Information on which frequency will be used
for specific individual multiplexes will be published in the detailed
frequency listings for each region:
The current designations of the six multiplexes will change at
switchover, and the table below compares their current and future
names, as well as their PSB and COM status:
Current Multiplex
Name
Post-Switchover Name
PSB or COM
Operator
1
BBC A
PSB
BBC
2
D3&4
PSB
Digital 3 & 4
A*
SDN
COM
SDN
B
BBC B
PSB
BBC
C
NGW A
COM
National Grid Wireless
D
NGW B
COM
National Grid Wireless
* We expect that five, S4C and Tele G which are currently carried on
multiplex A, will move to a PSB
multiplex prior to switchover.
Aerial Groups
Television aerials are designed to operate most efficiently over a
specific range of frequencies, as shown in the table below. For
guidance, this document suggests a suitable aerial group for reception
of the digital services from each transmitter. Where a transmitter
uses a semi-wideband channel grouping (E or K), a wideband (W) aerial
is also suggested
as an alternative. The colour codes in the table below are often used
by aerial manufacturers to aid identification of the aerial's group.
Aerial Group
Channels
Colour Code
A
21-37
Red
B
35-53
Yellow
C/D
48-68
Green
E
35-68
Brown
K
21-48
Grey
W
21-68
Black
Transmission Mode
It is anticipated that the post-switchover transmission mode for all
six multiplexes will be
64QAM modulation, rate 2/3.
Transitional Transmission Characteristics
Transmission frequencies are intensively used in many parts of the UK.
To avoid unnecessary interference being caused to viewers, a certain
number of multiplexes will need to operate with 'transitional'
transmission characteristics for a limited period following switchover
at particular transmitters. These transitional characteristics are
only likely to affect a small proportion of sites. For example, some
channels may need to operate at slightly reduced power levels compared
to the final post-switchover allocations shown in this
booklet. This is primarily in order to prevent interference being
caused to neighbouring transmitters which may not switchover until
later in the regional sequence. Full power
7
operation will be adopted when these interference constraints are
removed, generally when the neighbouring transmitter or region
switches over.
Details of transitional arrangements affecting particular transmitters
will be published in the detailed regional frequency listings as
switchover plans are finalised.
Analogue Channel Changes
For practical engineering reasons, some analogue channel allocations
may need to be altered in the period immediately before switchover
begins at a particular transmitter. This may involve swapping the
frequencies of some programme services. In other cases, a previously
unused analogue frequency may need to be used temporarily to allow
high-power digital broadcasts to begin.
Viewers will be informed of any such channel changes by Digital UK and
the broadcasters in the run up to switchover.
Switchover Dates
Up-to-date information on switchover dates is available from Digital
UK (www.digitaluk.co.uk).
8
Transmitter Locations
9
Document History
Version
Date
Details
1.0
5/7/2007
Document issued
2.0
24/10/2007
Additional explanatory text, revised document format, and new colour
coding. Change to Ferryside data.
10
Mark Carver
...
>>
>> http://www.pdftoword.com/
>>
>> ... to see what happens. It isn't instantaneous - your pdf is uploaded
>> and you get the .xls or .doc file back by e-mail, so I haven't got it
>> yet ...
>
> Excellent! It looked so good that I thought I was looking at the .pdf by
> mistake!
It looks very good Terry. However, I tried a test conversation an hour ago,
and nothing so far has come back. I've looked in all my spam traps :-(
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Sue
"Mark Carver" <mark....@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:8j5rtt...@mid.individual.net...
OT Bill what scanner do you have?
Terry Casey
mark....@invalid.invalid says...
>
> Terry Casey wrote:
> ...
> >>
> >> http://www.pdftoword.com/
> >>
> >> ... to see what happens. It isn't instantaneous - your pdf is uploaded
> >> and you get the .xls or .doc file back by e-mail, so I haven't got it
> >> yet ...
> >
> > Excellent! It looked so good that I thought I was looking at the .pdf by
> > mistake!
>
> It looks very good Terry. However, I tried a test conversation an hour ago,
> and nothing so far has come back. I've looked in all my spam traps :-(
Perhaps everybody is having a go ...!
The Excel conversion I did first came back almost immediately - possibly
because it's Sunday (I've used it before and it hasn't been so quick.)
The Word conversion took much longer but, although I know what time I
received it, I never noted the time it was sent! (There's actually 63
minutes difference btween the two mails but, as I only did the Word one
as an afterthought - I'd never used it before - it was much faster than
that!
--
Terry
Terry Casey
original and deleted the entire post from my news reader!
I've recovered this copy from Google Groups ...
Java Jive said:
> > In article <MPG.2737a8941ade1f86989...@news.virginmedia.com>,
> > kt...@example.invalid says...
>
> > > Charles, go here ...
>
> > > http://www.pdftoexcelonline.com/
>
> > > ... and give it your Ofcom pdf to digest ...
>
> > > I've just tried it and all the tables look perfect (though I haven't
> > > proof read all of it ...
>
> > > The Footnotes to the tables are missing because they're obviousl;y
> > > treated as text rather than data ...
>
> So an originally copyrighted and closed source format, PDF, creates a
> f*ck up. Consequently, or so I presume, when the format is thrown
> open, some poor sod(s) feel(s) sufficiently exasperated to write a
> good program to clean up the f*ck up, instead of spending
> his/her/their time and talents doing something more interesting.
> Wouldn't it be more to the point not to make the f*ck up in the first
> place?
>
> Why not if possible scan directly to a structured format, the choice
> depending on what the OCR software will do, and what the data is
> ultimately wanted for?
I entirely agree with you there. Extracting data from a pdf is well nigh
impossible - or at least it was, until I found this utility.
Railway timetables are a typical example - great if you want to READ the
entire National Railways Timetable but impossible if you want to extract
a small - but vital - part of it because you actually want to USE it
travel by train ...
>
> I accept that I was probably a bit harsh on Bill, as I haven't seen
> the articles to which he referred, and it may be that there is
> insufficient structured data in them to worry. I was just trying to
> steer people away from a knee-jerk reaction that because a document is
> destined for the web, it must be in a pile of sh*te format like PDF.
>
> > > ... so I've just fed it to ...
>
> > > http://www.pdftoword.com/
>
> > > ... to see what happens. It isn't instantaneous - your pdf is uploaded
> > > and you get the .xls or .doc file back by e-mail, so I haven't got it
> > > yet ...
>
> > Excellent! It looked so good that I thought I was looking at the .pdf by
> > mistake!
>
> Word is a half-way case. If you choose Save As Text in Word, the
> result looks pretty much as it does when you do the same thing in
> Acrobat Reader, the tabular structure is entirely lost, as appended,
> but if you copy'n'paste the table directly the structure is preserved.
> That at least is good, but if you're processing a load of documents to
> extract data, you don't want to have to load each file manually to do
> it, you want to be able to run a simple conversion that works on
> batches of files and outputs the data as something that preferably is
> a de facto standard and open source, such as CSV, TSV, XML, or JSON.
You are given the choice of .rtf format but I didn't try that.
Presumably, if you buy the sotware, you would be able to batch-process
as many files as you like.
I tried an experiment. I copied the contents of the Word document into
Excel.
Much to my surprise, the missing map appeared at the bottom!
Anyway, the tabular structure was retained intact and I was then able to
save it as a .csv file.
As a workaround, a visual basic program in Excel could process a batch
of Word files and convert them to .csv format.
If I was doing it, I would also get it to remove the the vast blocks of
blank rows as well ...
Anyway, here is the result - without even loading it into the
spreadsheet program of your choice, you can see the beautifully
preserved tabular structure ...:
,,,,,,,,,
Digital Switchover,,,,,,,,,
Transmitter Details,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Existing 81-Site Plan,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
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,,,,,,,,,
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,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Issue 2.0,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Issued:,24-Oct-07,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Digital Switchover Transmitter Details: Existing 81-Site Plan,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"This document contains details of the transmission characteristics
which the 81 transmitters already carrying digital services will adopt
at digital switchover. Information on each transmitter?s dependent relay
stations will be issued separately, on a region-by region
basis.",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
This information is primarily intended to help systems installers make
initial preparations for switchover by highlighting those transmitters
where frequency allocations and aerial group requirements are likely to
change.,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
A key to column headings is provided in the Glossary.,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"Please note that although we anticipate that this frequency plan will
remain relatively stable in the run-up to switchover, it may prove
necessary to make changes to some aspects of the plan with the aim of
maximising coverage across the UK. If you would like to be kept informed
of any changes, please join our digital transmitter mailing list by
sending an email",,,,,,,,,
"to broadcast...@ofcom.org.uk, with the word 'subscribe' as the
message subject.",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"Disclaimer: While every reasonable effort is made to ensure that the
information provided in this document is accurate, no guarantees for the
currency or accuracy of information are or can be made. The information
contained in this document is provided without any representation or
endorsement made and without warranty of any kind, whether express or
implied.",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
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,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
1,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Existing 81-Site Plan,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,PSB,,,COM,,,ERP,Aerial
Site Name (Region),NGR,Multiplexes,,,Multiplexes,,,(kW),Group
,,,,,,,,,
Anglia,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Sandy Heath,TL204494,21,24,27,48,51,52,200,WH
,,,,,,,,,
Sudbury,TL913376,41,44,47,56,58,60,100,EH
,,,,,,,,,
Tacolneston,TM130957,55,59,62,42,45,50,100,EH
,,,,,,,,,
Border,,,,,,,,,
,,25,28,30,,,,100,
Caldbeck,NY299425,,,,23,26,29,50,AH
,,22,,,,,,100,
Caldbeck Scotland,NY299425,,24,27,,,,50,AH
,,55,59,62,,,,10,
Selkirk,NT500294,,,,53,57,60,5,C/DH
,,,,,,,,,
Central,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Brierley Hill,SO916856,53,57,60,55,59,62,2,C/DV
,,,,,,,,,
Bromsgrove,SO947730,23,26,30,41,44,47,0.4,KV
,,21,24,27,,,,2,
Fenton,SJ902451,,,,22,25,28,1,AV
,,,,,,,,,
Lark Stoke,SP187426,23,26,30,41,44,47,1.3,KV
,,,,,,,,,
Malvern,SO774464,53,57,60,55,59,62,0.4,C/DV
,,,,,,,,,
Nottingham,SK503435,21,24,27,48,51,52,0.4,WV
,,53,57,60,,,,100,
Oxford,SP567105,,,,55,59,62,50,C/DH
,,22,25,28,,,,20,
Ridge Hill,SO630333,,,,21,24,27,10,AH
,,,,,,,,,
Sutton Coldfield,SK113003,43,46,50,42,45,49,200,BH
,,23,26,30,,,,20,
The Wrekin,SJ629082,,,,41,44,47,10,KH
,,54,58,61,,,,50,
Waltham,SK809233,,,,29,56,57,25,WH
,,,,,,,,,
Granada,,,,,,,,,
Lancaster,SD490662,21,24,27,22,25,28,2,AV
Pendle Forest,SD825383,22,25,28,21,24,27,0.1,AV
Saddleworth,SD987049,42,45,49,48,51,52,0.4,BV
Storeton,SJ314841,22,25,28,23,26,29,0.56,AV
Winter Hill,SD660144,54,59,62,55,58,61,100,C/DH
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
2,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,PSB,,,COM,,,ERP,Aerial
Site Name (Region),NGR,Multiplexes,,,Multiplexes,,,(kW),Group
,,,,,,,,,
London,,,,,,,,,
Crystal Palace,TQ339712,23,26,30,22,25,28,200,AH
Guildford,SU974486,43,46,49,48,52,56,2,EV
Hemel Hempstead,TL087044,41,44,47,55,59,62,2,EV
Reigate,TQ256521,53,57,60,21,24,27,2,WV
,,,,,,,,,
Meridian,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Bluebell Hill,TQ757613,43,46,54,45,48,61,20,EH
,,50,51,53,,,,80,
Dover,TR273397,,,,55,59,62,40,C/DH
,,42,45,51,,,,50,
Hannington,SU527568,,,,41,44,47,25,BHa
,,22,25,28,,,,1,
Hastings,TQ806100,,,,23,26,30,0.5,AV
,,,,,,,,,
Heathfield,TQ566220,47,49,52,42,44,41,20,BH
,,55,58,61,,,,20,
Midhurst,SU912249,,,,50,59,62,10,C/DH
,,21,24,27,,,,200,AH AH
Rowridgeb,SZ447865,,,,22,25,28,50,AV
,,21,24,27,22,25,28,200,
,,,,,,,,,
Salisbury,SU136285,53,57,60,55,59,62,2,C/DV
,,,,,,,,,
Tunbridge Wells,TQ607439,47,49,52,41,42,44,4,BV
,,,,,,,,,
Whitehawk Hill,TQ329045,53,57,60,48,51,56,4,C/DV
,,,,,,,,,
STV Central,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Black Hill,NS831645,43,46,50,41,44,47,100,BH
,,21,24,27,,,,20,
Craigkelly,NT233872,,,,42,45,49,10,WH
,,22,25,28,,,,20,
Darvel,NS557341,,,,23,26,29,10,AH
,,54,58,61,53,57,60,2,C/DH C/DV
Rosneathc,NS258811,54,58,61,53,57,60,0.008,
,,,,,,,,,
Torosay,NM703357,22,25,28,23,26,29,4,AV
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
a Hannington viewers are at present recommended to use Group E aerials
for analogue reception. Group E aerials will be suitable for receiving
post-switchover services broadcast in Group B,,,,,,,,,
b Rowridge will broadcast both horizontally and vertically polarised
signals for all six multiplexes after switchover. All vertically
polarised signals will be at an ERP of 200kW. The horizontally
polarised,,,,,,,,,
"signals will be broadcast at 200 kW on channels 21, 24 & 27, and 50kW
on channels 22, 25 & 28. c In addition to the main horizontally
polarised signals at 2kW, the Rosneath transmitter will also broadcast a
separate beam at 0.008kW vertically polarised. This is intended to
improve reception in Rosneath itself.",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
3,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,PSB,,,COM,,,ERP,Aerial
Site Name (Region),NGR,Multiplexes,,,Multiplexes,,,(kW),Group
,,,,,,,,,
STV North,,,,,,,,,
,,53,57,60,,,,20,
Angus,NO394407,,,,54,58,61,10,C/DH
,,,,,,,,,
Bressay,HU503387,22,25,28,21,24,27,2,AV
,,22,25,28,,,,100,
Durris,NO764899,,,,23,26,29,50,AH
,,23,26,29,,,,20,
Eitshal,NB305303,,,,22,25,28,10,AH
,,43,46,50,,,,20,
Keelylang Hill,HY377102,,,,42,45,49,10,BH
,,23,26,29,,,,20,
Knockmore,NJ321497,,,,53,57,60,10,WH
,,42,45,49,,,,20,
Rosemarkie,NH761622,,,,43,46,50,10,BH
,,21,24,27,,,,20,
Rumster Forest,ND197385,,,,30,59,62,10,WH
,,,,,,,,,
Tyne Tees,,,,,,,,,
,,23,26,29,,,,100,
Bilsdale,SE553962,,,,43,46,50,50,WH
,,42,45,49,,,,20,
Chatton,NU105264,,,,41,44,47,10,BH
,,,,,,,,,
Fenham,NZ216648,21,24,27,22,25,28,0.4,AV
,,54,58,61,,,,100,
Pontop Pike,NZ147527,,,,55,59,62,50,C/DH
,,,,,,,,,
Ulster,,,,,,,,,
,,22,25,28,,,,20,
Brougher Mountain,IH350527,,,,21,24,27,2,AH
,,21,24,27,,,,100,
Divis,IJ287750,,,,23,26,29,50,AH
,,55,59,62,,,,20,
Limavady,IC711296,,,,54,58,61,10,C/DH
,,,,,,,,,
Wales,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Aberdare,SO034012,21,24,27,22,25,28,0.1,AV
,,21,24,27,,,,40,
Blaenplwyf,SN569756,,,,22,25,28,10,AH
,,53,57,60,,,,20,
Carmel,SN576153,,,,54,58,61,10,C/DH
,,21,,24,27,,,0.025,
Ferryside,SN317104,,30,,,-,-,0.005,AV
,,,,,,,,,
Kilvey Hill,SS671940,23,26,29,22,25,28,2,AV
,,53,57,60,,,,20,
Llanddona,SH582810,,,,43,46,50,10,EH
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
4,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,PSB,,,COM,,,ERP,Aerial
Site Name (Region),NGR,Multiplexes,,,Multiplexes,,,(kW),Group
,,,,,,,,,
Wales (cont),,,,,,,,,
,,42,45,49,,,,20,
Moel y Parc,SJ123701,,,,48,51,52,10,BH
,,,,,,,,,
Pontypool,ST284990,23,26,29,22,25,28,0.05,AV
,,43,46,50,,,,20,
Presely,SN172306,,,,42,45,49,10,BH
,,41,44,47,,,,100,
Wenvoe,ST110741,,,,42,45,49,50,BH
,,,,,,,,,
West,,,,,,,,,
,,41,44,47,,,,0.2,
Bristol Ilchester Crescent,ST577700,,,,42,45,49,0.1,BV
,,,,,,,,,
Bristol Kings Weston,ST547775,43,46,50,53,57,60,0.2,EV
,,,,,,,,,
Mendip,ST564488,54,58,61,48,52,56,100,C/DH
,,,,,,,,,
Ridge Hill West,SO630333,29,,,,,,20,AH
,,,,,,,,,
Westcountry,,,,,,,,,
,,53,57,60,,,,20,
Beacon Hill,SX857619,,,,42,45,51,10,EH
,,22,25,28,,,,100,
Caradon Hill,SX273707,,,,21,24,27,50,AH
,,55,59,62,,,,20,
Huntshaw Cross,SS527220,,,,48,52,56,10,C/DH
,,,,,,,,,
Plympton,SX530555,54,58,61,42,45,56,0.4,EV
,,41,44,47,,,,20,
Redruth,SW690394,,,,48,51,52,10,BH
,,23,26,29,,,,50,
Stockland Hill,ST222014,,,,22,25,28,25,AH
,,,,,,,,,
Yorkshire,,,,,,,,,
,,22,25,28,,,,150,
Belmont,TF218836,,,,30,,,50,WH
,,,,,,53,60,100,
,,,,29,,,,0.8,
Chesterfield,SK382764,23,26,,43,46,50,0.4,WV
,,,,,,,,,
Emley Moor,SE222128,41,44,47,48,51,52,174,BH
,,,,,,,,,
Idle,SE164374,21,24,27,42,45,49,0.05,WV
,,,,,,,,,
Keighley,SE068443,54,58,61,53,57,60,2,C/DV
,,53,57,60,,,,2,
Olivers Mount,TA040869,,,,54,58,61,1,C/DV
,,,,,,,,,
Sheffield,SK324870,21,24,27,42,45,49,1,WV
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
5,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Glossary,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Site Name (Region),"The name of the transmitter site. Transmitters are
grouped according to the ITV regional service they broadcast (shown in
bold), and this will determine their place in the digital
switchover",,,,,,,,
,sequence.,,,,,,,,
NGR,"The location of the transmitter site, in Ordnance Survey
National",,,,,,,,
,Grid Reference (Landranger) format.,,,,,,,,
PSB Multiplexes / COM Multiplexes,The UHF channel numbers which will be
used by the Public,,,,,,,,
,"Service Broadcaster (PSB) multiplexes and the Commercial (COM)
multiplexes at this site after switchover. The nominal centre frequency,
Fc (in Megahertz) of the multiplex can be calculated using Fc=8n+306,
where n is the UHF channel number. See below for more information on
multiplex names.",,,,,,,,
Multiplex Channels colour coding,"Where individual multiplexes use
channels which are outside the suggested aerial group for reception of
the existing analogue services (excluding Channel 5), they are shown
shaded in",,,,,,,,
,yellow. See below for more information on aerial groups.,,,,,,,,
ERP,"The Effective Radiated Power of each multiplex, in
kilowatts",,,,,,,,
,"(kW), which will be adopted after switchover. Where differing power
levels will be used at a particular site, each power is shown vertically
aligned with the corresponding multiplex channel numbers.",,,,,,,,
,Note that certain multiplexes at some sites may not adopt full- power
transmissions immediately at switchover: see the note on,,,,,,,,
,Transitional Transmission Characteristics on page 7.,,,,,,,,
Aerial Group,Suggested aerial group for reception of all multiplexes
from this transmitter after digital switchover. See below for more
information on aerial groups. The final character in this column
indicates whether signals are horizontally (H) or vertically (V)
polarised.,,,,,,,,
Aerial Group Colour codes,"At switchover, all digital multiplexes will
fall within the suggested aerial group for reception of the existing
analogue services (excluding Channel 5). If aerials are in good
condition,",,,,,,,,
,replacement will generally not be required.,,,,,,,,
,"At switchover, one or more digital multiplexes will fall outside the
suggested aerial group for reception of the existing analogue services
(excluding Channel 5). Therefore a replacement aerial of a different
group may be required. If householders have already replaced their
aerials to receive digital television or are receiving digital
television through their analogue aerial reliably",,,,,,,,
,"prior to switchover, replacement should not be needed.",,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
6,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Multiplex Names,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
This guide indicates only which frequencies are to be allocated to
multiplexes carrying the public service channels (PSB multiplexes) and
other (COM multiplexes). Information on which frequency will be used for
specific individual multiplexes will be published in the detailed
frequency listings for each region:,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"The current designations of the six multiplexes will change at
switchover, and the table below compares their current and future names,
as well as their PSB and COM status:",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Current Multiplex,,,,,,,,,
Name,Post-Switchover Name,PSB or COM,Operator,,,,,,
1,BBC A,PSB,BBC,,,,,,
2,D3&4,PSB,Digital 3 & 4,,,,,,
A*,SDN,COM,SDN,,,,,,
B,BBC B,PSB,BBC,,,,,,
C,NGW A,COM,National Grid Wireless,,,,,,
D,NGW B,COM,National Grid Wireless,,,,,,
"* We expect that five, S4C and Tele G which are currently carried on
multiplex A, will move to a PSB",,,,,,,,,
multiplex prior to switchover.,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Aerial Groups,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"Television aerials are designed to operate most efficiently over a
specific range of frequencies, as shown in the table below. For
guidance, this document suggests a suitable aerial group for reception
of the digital services from each transmitter. Where a transmitter uses
a semi-wideband channel grouping (E or K), a wideband (W) aerial is also
suggested",,,,,,,,,
as an alternative. The colour codes in the table below are often used by
aerial manufacturers to aid identification of the aerial?s
group.,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Aerial Group,Channels,Colour Code,,,,,,,
A,21-37,Red,,,,,,,
B,35-53,Yellow,,,,,,,
C/D,48-68,Green,,,,,,,
E,35-68,Brown,,,,,,,
K,21-48,Grey,,,,,,,
W,21-68,Black,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Transmission Mode,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
It is anticipated that the post-switchover transmission mode for all six
multiplexes will be,,,,,,,,,
"64QAM modulation, rate 2/3.",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Transitional Transmission Characteristics,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"Transmission frequencies are intensively used in many parts of the UK.
To avoid unnecessary interference being caused to viewers, a certain
number of multiplexes will need to operate with 'transitional'
transmission characteristics for a limited period following switchover
at particular transmitters. These transitional characteristics are only
likely to affect a small proportion of sites. For example, some channels
may need to operate at slightly reduced power levels compared to the
final post-switchover allocations shown in this",,,,,,,,,
booklet. This is primarily in order to prevent interference being caused
to neighbouring transmitters which may not switchover until later in the
regional sequence. Full power,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
7,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"operation will be adopted when these interference constraints are
removed, generally when the neighbouring transmitter or region switches
over.",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Details of transitional arrangements affecting particular transmitters
will be published in the detailed regional frequency listings as
switchover plans are finalised.,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Analogue Channel Changes,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
"For practical engineering reasons, some analogue channel allocations
may need to be altered in the period immediately before switchover
begins at a particular transmitter. This may involve swapping the
frequencies of some programme services. In other cases, a previously
unused analogue frequency may need to be used temporarily to allow high-
power digital broadcasts to begin.",,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Viewers will be informed of any such channel changes by Digital UK and
the broadcasters in the run up to switchover.,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Switchover Dates,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Up-to-date information on switchover dates is available from Digital UK
(www.digitaluk.co.uk).,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
8,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Transmitter Locations,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
9,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Document History,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
Version,Date,Details,,,,,,,
1,05/07/2007,Document issued,,,,,,,
2,24/10/2007,"Additional explanatory text, revised document format, and
new colour coding. Change to Ferryside data.",,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
,,,,,,,,,
10,,,,,,,,,
--
Terry
Bill Wright
> OT Bill what scanner do you have?
Epson GT20000.
I can't fault it for scan quality or user friendliness.
Bill
Steve Thackery
> Aaargh! No!
>
> Any tabular or other structured data on the pages will lose all their
> structure!
Understood. But what would you suggest instead?
SteveT
Steve Thackery
> I was just trying to
> steer people away from a knee-jerk reaction that because a document is
> destined for the web, it must be in a pile of sh*te format like PDF.
Well, I wasn't thinking of making my scans available on the web, it's
just a convenient format for me.
But again I ask: what alternative do you have that will maintain the
original look and feel of the document, including graphics, but still
be searchable from within Windows 7 or Adobe Reader?
This is a genuine question - I'd be happy to use a better way of
storing my treasured old magazines.
SteveT
Terry Casey
> > Word is a half-way case. If you choose Save As Text in Word, the
> > result looks pretty much as it does when you do the same thing in
> > Acrobat Reader, the tabular structure is entirely lost, as appended,
> > but if you copy'n'paste the table directly the structure is preserved.
> > That at least is good, but if you're processing a load of documents to
> > extract data, you don't want to have to load each file manually to do
> > it, you want to be able to run a simple conversion that works on
> > batches of files and outputs the data as something that preferably is
> > a de facto standard and open source, such as CSV, TSV, XML, or JSON.
>
> You are given the choice of .rtf format but I didn't try that.
>
I've now tried the .rtf option and, again, it is fine. I haven't tried
the .cxv conversion but I've no reason to think that it won't work just
as well.
So it looks as if there is a solution: buy the software and write a
suitable program to automate the .csv conversion.
I must correct a mistake I made earlier - noting that the transmitter
map appears in the .rtf version, I checked the .doc again and it IS
there - I must have scrolled over to too quickly before ...
... not that it matters, of course, because there are no pictures in a
.csv file ...!
--
Terry
Rick
Perhaps we could start an occasional nostalgia corner, whereby contributors
could dig some of the older copies of long forgotten magazines and post some
of the items of the day, I managed to find a couple of snippets, including
one about early developments in transistorised receivers and early colour TV
and the U.S. (also from the Practical Television) dating from about the same
period as the ones you posted.
<https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PT1psp%20%28944%20x%201332%29.jpg>>
<https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PT/ptgs1%20%281232%20x%201768%29.jpg>
< https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PTtransis%20%281168%20x%201694%29.jpg>
Java Jive
<kt...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
> So it looks as if there is a solution: buy the software
I'm certainly not going to waste my *money* fixing someone else's
broken technology. It's quite bad enough having to waste so much
*time* on it.
> write a
> suitable program to automate the .csv conversion.
I did, it's called OfcomPre.js. It converts the steaming pile of PDF
into TSV. After some light hand-editing, to clean up some things
which cannot be automated, the resulting TSV files are then read by a
second JavaScript progam, Ofcom2JSON.js, which aggregates all the data
from all the different source files, as far as possible checks them
for mutual consistency, and finally outputs the JSON data files for
use by my calculator program.
But the point is that I shouldn't've had to do most of this. It
should have no more than a conversion job from one structured data
format to another structured data format.
Computerisation of data has been around for decades and is a
well-established science. If Ofcom kept their, no OUR, data in a
structured data format which WE could access, it would have saved me
weeks. Perhaps even more to the point, It would also have been a
tremendous asset to everyone involved in DSO, going a long way to
eliminating some of the stupid errors that we've seen.
If at least they had published their data in a more suitable form such
as HTML, RTF, Excel, or Word, I wouldn't've had to spend days writing
OfcomPre.js.
Bill Wright
They're very interesting. The brief mention on p400 of the Wenvoe site
is interesting. The 1951 mag I have discusses the various possible
sites. Strange to think the first idea was to put the tx in Somerset!
The cover mentions 'aerials for Wenvoe.' I don't suppose you could be
persuaded to scan those pages for me?
The item about encryption is astonished. Who'd have thought they'd be
working on that when Rupert Murdoch was only 20!
And How Fred Camm would have marveled at subsequent transistor development.
Bill
Mark Carver
>> It looks very good Terry. However, I tried a test conversation an hour ago,
>> and nothing so far has come back. I've looked in all my spam traps :-(
>
> Perhaps everybody is having a go ...!
>
> The Excel conversion I did first came back almost immediately - possibly
> because it's Sunday (I've used it before and it hasn't been so quick.)
>
> The Word conversion took much longer but, although I know what time I
> received it, I never noted the time it was sent!
Well I fired off another one last night at 19:00hrs, this morning no trace of
either :-(
Perhaps it's really someone manually typing up the original into a blank Excel
sheet, and they knock off about 18:30 :-)
Robin
> should have no more than a conversion job from one structured data
> format to another structured data format.
>
you want from Ofcom in a structured format.
On the other hand I do wonder if your comments aren't a little harsh in
the context of printed documents where the underlying sources (ie text
and graphics) are not available in machine readable format.
I'm out of date on this (as on most things) but a few years ago the
National Archives recommended either PDF/A (ISO 19005) or PostScript;
and I think PDF/A was also the Library of Congress's format of choice
for material scanning from printed pages. A key reason was that the PDF
allows users to see the image and search the (hidden OCR'd) text in one
document. The problem with other formats - eg a scanned image converted
to .csv, .txt, .xls or whatever is that users have to look at an image
on the one hand (as a JPEG, TIFF or whatever) and the OCR'd document on
the other in order to see (i) any errors which have arisen during the
conversion process and (ii) graphics. Or is there a format other than
PDF which allows both and also scores well on ubiquity, support,
stability, interoperability etc?
Coming back to your issue, just out of interest what response did you
get when you asked Ofcom to make the data you want available in a
structured format rather than a PDF as they do with some other stuff
about transmitters etc?
--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com
Brian Gaff
total gibberish but sighted users see it correctly. If the text behind is
not the same then its going to be a real pain in the neck to accessed the
scanned images.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Java Jive" <ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:q8rqc6t3j1bvna71t...@4ax.com...
Brian Gaff
the blind need to read your post. Some of the crap pdfs I've been sent as
accessabile are quite frankly worse than me sticking a crap photocopy on my
scanner and using Words ocr.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: bri...@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Terry Casey" <kt...@example.invalid> wrote in message
news:MPG.2737db111...@news.virginmedia.com...
Andy Burns
> This little comment makes me realise why some files I get sent are
> total gibberish but sighted users see it correctly.
There are plenty of PDF files where seeing the page drawn on a slow
machine makes it obvious the content in the file is in a completely
different order to how a person would read the page. Sometimes
consecutive letters or words aren't even drawn together.
Robin
alternative (eg RTF or text) when publishing a PDF. But that's easy
when starting with stuff in Word, FrameMaker, Excel or the like. What
other format is better for scanned documents please?
Is a lot of it down just down to how easy it is to scan into PDF and get
a result which looks good to the sighted without bothering about the
accuracy of the text, structure, tags and so on? Those who scan and
convert to RTF etc have to sort out the text and structure because there
is nothing else and as JJ said that's hard work.
Java Jive
made me relent on my original hard line to Bill.
For the purposes you intend, PDF may be as good as anything else,
though I'd be strongly inclined to investigate further to try and find
an alternative, anything to avoid storing something I may want to
access at some indeterminate date in the future from being in a
proprietary and obscure binary format. Perhaps there may be an Open
Office format that might be suitable, but there again, like so many
things associated with Linux, the OCR software may not support it as a
destination format.
However, if I was going to put anything on the web, I'd try and
recreate them as true html. Yes, it's *lots* more work, which is why
so few people, even few large corporations, do it, but the results are
*so* much more compatible with everything else on the web.
Besides the data structure problems I've already mentioned ...
If, like me, you do quite a lot of technical research, depending on
your line of work/interest you may well come across a great many PDFs,
some of which might be big. You click on one, perhaps not even
realising that it's a PDF, and then have to wait ages for it to
download to see if you even want to read it, meanwhile your browser
may be less than responsive, so even if you click the Back button it
may take quite a while for the click to be registered and the browser
to take you back.
Another example of the hazards of using an obscure format that you
can't tweak ...
I have a Palm Pilot, a fairly old model by now, but I don't use it
enough to justify replacing it. The only way I can use it as a
reading device for text such as an eBook is to convert the text into
PDF, which the Adobe Palm convertor then converts again to a version
that will work on the Palm. No matter how much I p*ss about with the
formatting of the original text, the result is always that where a
line-wrap originally occurs in the original text, thetwo words that
were originallyseperated by the line break appear on the Palmas one.
FFS, why can't I just read the original text file on the Palm?
Line-wrapping text can is an established technique that even the most
basic modern editor such as Notepad can get right! I realise the
answer to that question doesn't lie at Acrobat's door, but this
problem is another example of how, almost every time I encounter
another use of Acrobat, I have some bl*dy stupid and exasperating
problem with it, and can't do anything to solve it because of the
obscure, proprietary format.
On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:06:14 GMT, Steve Thackery <nob...@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>
> But again I ask: what alternative do you have that will maintain the
> original look and feel of the document, including graphics, but still
> be searchable from within Windows 7 or Adobe Reader?
>
> This is a genuine question - I'd be happy to use a better way of
> storing my treasured old magazines.
Terry Casey
mark....@invalid.invalid says...
>
> Terry Casey wrote:
>
> >> It looks very good Terry. However, I tried a test conversation an hour ago,
> >> and nothing so far has come back. I've looked in all my spam traps :-(
> >
> > Perhaps everybody is having a go ...!
> >
> > The Excel conversion I did first came back almost immediately - possibly
> > because it's Sunday (I've used it before and it hasn't been so quick.)
> >
> > The Word conversion took much longer but, although I know what time I
> > received it, I never noted the time it was sent!
>
> Well I fired off another one last night at 19:00hrs, this morning no trace of
> either :-(
>
> Perhaps it's really someone manually typing up the original into a blank Excel
> sheet, and they knock off about 18:30 :-)
Oh dear!
That's a pity, because it really does work!
I presume that you've added no-r...@mail.pdftoword.com to your address
book, as recommended.
Is your ISP's spam filter a little too vigorous?
Since Virgin Media 'Googlified' their e-mail, virtually no spam has got
through and, AFAIK, nothing has been lost, though my wife has missed a
couple of mails - including a birthday card - and had to recover them
from the on-line spam repository.
--
Terry
Java Jive
>
> On the other hand I do wonder if your comments aren't a little harsh in
> the context of printed documents where the underlying sources (ie text
> and graphics) are not available in machine readable format.
Well that may be a valid get-out-of-jail clause for the historical
analogue data, but isn't an arguable for the modern digital data. Yet,
here is the irony, the analogue data is in HTML format, which copies
'n' pastes quite well, it's the digital data that they're destroying
by putting into PDF!
> I'm out of date on this (as on most things) but a few years ago the
> National Archives recommended either PDF/A (ISO 19005) or PostScript;
> and I think PDF/A was also the Library of Congress's format of choice
> for material scanning from printed pages. A key reason was that the PDF
> allows users to see the image and search the (hidden OCR'd) text in one
> document. The problem with other formats - eg a scanned image converted
> to .csv, .txt, .xls or whatever is that users have to look at an image
> on the one hand (as a JPEG, TIFF or whatever) and the OCR'd document on
> the other in order to see (i) any errors which have arisen during the
> conversion process and (ii) graphics. Or is there a format other than
> PDF which allows both and also scores well on ubiquity, support,
> stability, interoperability etc?
The problem that the curators of large historical archives face is the
appallingly slow rate of digitisation if you're going to do the job
properly and convert each document into an equivalent looking
web-page, while still allowing some sort of photographic access to the
original for research purposes. I accept that this is a problem, and
that PDF is in many cases an acceptable *interim* solution, but I
don't think it should be viewed as the *final* solution. Depending on
the type of data there are better ways to put historical data on the
web. For example, this is a snipped quote from a job advertisement
which appeared a while back in the OpenSpace forum:
"The National Archives (TNA) is looking to develop an innovative map
interface. This will display the place data held in our collections on
a map.
[snip]
Example of spatial/place data held by The National Archives include
the Domesday Book (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/domesday/), the
Manorial Documents Register (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/mdr/)
and medieval taxation records in the E 179 database
(http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/e179/).
The data will be made available for inclusion in the map interface
geo-referenced with geographical coordinates."
Such an attempt, thoroughly laudable, if properly and successfully
implemented, will allow a much more powerful interface to historical
data than a bunch of unwieldy PDFs.
> Coming back to your issue, just out of interest what response did you
> get when you asked Ofcom to make the data you want available in a
> structured format rather than a PDF as they do with some other stuff
> about transmitters etc?
Looking back through my records, this was in my first mail to Ofcom,
which, my not having then a particular contact address, was addressed
simply to the webmaster (note: I was not aware then that PDF had
become a published standard):
"I have discovered many contradictions in these documents, and
therefore wish to complain about the standards of the data in them. I
realise that this may not be the province of a webmaster as such, but
there doesn't seem anywhere on the site more appropriate to complain
on such a matter, so perhaps you could forward this to someone
appropriate?
My first complaint is about the use of PDF. I accept that it is a
de-facto web standard, but it is one that suffers from the critical
disadvantage that it is a secret proprietary format from which it is
ridiculously hard to extract data to use elsewhere. Appendix A is a
fragment from a PDF file 'Saved As Text' from the Reader File menu. As
you can see, all structure in the document has been lost. Even a
table on a web-page would usually copy 'n' paste with more structure
as tab seperated values (TSV), but ideally one would like a de-facto
database or spreadsheet format like TSV or CSV, or best of all, XML."
There were five other points raised in all:
* Analogue data still up for Selkirk which by then was well past DSO
(of course, as DSO has progressed, this is now widespread, and I dare
say might be causing confusion to some trying to find out exactly what
signals are available in their area).
* No information on the directionality of signals.
* Disparate naming of transmitters
* Disparate NGRs of transmitters
* Disparate site numbers for transmitters.
I didn't even get an acknowledgement.
Terry Casey
ja...@evij.com.invalid says...
>
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:26:39 -0000, Terry Casey
> <kt...@example.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > So it looks as if there is a solution: buy the software
>
> I'm certainly not going to waste my *money* fixing someone else's
> broken technology. It's quite bad enough having to waste so much
> *time* on it.
>
I've already agreed with you on that point and I'm happy to use the
online free facility for my own needs. My response was to your demand
for batch processing. The .pdf format is a de facto established format,
whether you (or I) like it, ot not.
There are a number of third parties nowadays claiming to do pdf better
than Adobe and, in this case, they've proven that they are right. If you
want to use their full facility, it's only right that they should
receive payment for their trouble.
Your annoyance in this matter should neither be addressed to them, nor
to me, but Adobe, who should be encouraged to find a solution of their
own to the mess they have created.
Should they eventually do so and then demand payment for it, you would
be perfectly entitled to complain - and there would be a lot of support
behind you.
> > write a
> > suitable program to automate the .csv conversion.
>
> I did, it's called OfcomPre.js. It converts the steaming pile of PDF
> into TSV. After some light hand-editing, to clean up some things
> which cannot be automated, the resulting TSV files are then read by a
> second JavaScript progam, Ofcom2JSON.js, which aggregates all the data
> from all the different source files, as far as possible checks them
> for mutual consistency, and finally outputs the JSON data files for
> use by my calculator program.
>
Ah! So you,ve already resolved your problem! What a pity you didn't say
so before - then I wouldn't have wasted my time
> But the point is that I shouldn't've had to do most of this. It
> should have no more than a conversion job from one structured data
> format to another structured data format.
>
Agreed - for the third time ...
> Computerisation of data has been around for decades and is a
> well-established science. If Ofcom kept their, no OUR, data in a
> structured data format which WE could access, it would have saved me
> weeks. Perhaps even more to the point, It would also have been a
> tremendous asset to everyone involved in DSO, going a long way to
> eliminating some of the stupid errors that we've seen.
>
What do Ofcom have to say on the subject - I assume that you've asked
them?
> If at least they had published their data in a more suitable form such
> as HTML, RTF, Excel, or Word, I wouldn't've had to spend days writing
> OfcomPre.js.
I leave it up to you to decide if the time you spent is worth more or
less than the $100 cost of Nitro PDF Professional to do it for you ...
--
Terry
Java Jive
wrote:
>
> My response was to your demand
> for batch processing. The .pdf format is a de facto established format,
> whether you (or I) like it, ot not.
Yes, sadly.
> There are a number of third parties nowadays claiming to do pdf better
> than Adobe and, in this case, they've proven that they are right. If you
> want to use their full facility, it's only right that they should
> receive payment for their trouble.
Agreed, but I view PDF as something on the pavement to avoid stepping
into rather than something to be cleaned off one's shoes on a regular
basis, hence I won't pay money for a solution.
> Your annoyance in this matter should neither be addressed to them, nor
> to me, but Adobe, who should be encouraged to find a solution of their
> own to the mess they have created.
True.
> Ah! So you,ve already resolved your problem! What a pity you didn't say
> so before - then I wouldn't have wasted my time
I'm sorry if you feel that you've wasted your time. I was making
general points illustrated by specific examples, and didn't realise
you had started investigating this partly for my benefit on the
particular point of Ofcom's data.
My website's purpose is twofold, primarily to be a home for my
creative work, secondarily to pass on useful technical knowledge that
I have acquired over my life that would otherwise be lost or have to
be rediscovered, perhaps sometimes painfully, by others, and whose
presence on the site will help it maintain search engine rankings that
will make my creative work more likely to be found by appropriate
searches. As it's not, nor was ever intended to be, making me any
money, I have always applied the rule that I won't spend money on it
other than that required to get an acceptable level of hosting.
However, having been too ill to work for some time, I am prepared to
spend some of my free time on it, though in fact I've already spent
far, far more time on the technical side of it than I ever intended -
I'd rather be doing something more creative.
Consequently, I won't spend any money on sorting out Ofcom's messy
data, but because the two calculator pages and the pages supporting
them are quite simply the biggest pulls on the site, they help it
maintain generally what are, for a small non-commercial site that
doesn't pay anything to achieve high search engine rankings, quite
respectable placings.
> > Computerisation of data has been around for decades and is a
> > well-established science. If Ofcom kept their, no OUR, data in a
> > structured data format which WE could access, it would have saved me
> > weeks. Perhaps even more to the point, It would also have been a
> > tremendous asset to everyone involved in DSO, going a long way to
> > eliminating some of the stupid errors that we've seen.
>
> What do Ofcom have to say on the subject - I assume that you've asked
> them?
See my reply to Robin.
> I leave it up to you to decide if the time you spent is worth more or
> less than the $100 cost of Nitro PDF Professional to do it for you ...
As above.
Terry Casey
ja...@evij.com.invalid says...
>
> On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 11:12:29 -0000, Terry Casey <kt...@example.invalid>
> wrote:
> > Ah! So you,ve already resolved your problem! What a pity you didn't
> > say so before - then I wouldn't have wasted my time
>
> I'm sorry if you feel that you've wasted your time. I was making
> general points illustrated by specific examples, and didn't realise
> you had started investigating this partly for my benefit on the
> particular point of Ofcom's data.
>
I was referring more to the time spent repeating myself - I'd already
agreed with you about the inadequacies of pdf files and I wouldn't have
responded to your repeated criticisms had I known that you already had a
solution to the problem you posed ...
Actually, I must admit that I have learnt something myself - that the
Word/rtf conversion was perfect, even on the tables, whereas I spotted a
slight problem with the Excel version (which I previously referred to).
A couple of weeks ago I used the site to convert a railway timetable to
Excel. (I'm trying to merge two tables into one, showing local trains
and connections to a specific destination.) The tables are split up with
a block of several stations, a separator bar, another block of stations
and so on, to the end - like this:
------------------------
Station A 1234 1244 1254
Station B 1239 1249 1259
------------------------
Station C .... 1310 ....
Station D .... 1315 ....
Station E 1310 1322 1320
------------------------
The conversion placed each of these blocks on a single row, with the
times in each column separated by line feed characters. Juggling it
around wasn't easy!
I'm hoping now that if I do a Word conversion, it might produce a result
that is much easier to work with ...
> My website's purpose is twofold, primarily to be a home for my
> creative work, secondarily to pass on useful technical knowledge that
> I have acquired over my life that would otherwise be lost or have to
> be rediscovered, perhaps sometimes painfully, by others, and whose
> presence on the site will help it maintain search engine rankings that
> will make my creative work more likely to be found by appropriate
> searches. As it's not, nor was ever intended to be, making me any
> money, I have always applied the rule that I won't spend money on it
> other than that required to get an acceptable level of hosting.
> However, having been too ill to work for some time, I am prepared to
> spend some of my free time on it, though in fact I've already spent
> far, far more time on the technical side of it than I ever intended -
> I'd rather be doing something more creative.
>
> Consequently, I won't spend any money on sorting out Ofcom's messy
> data, but because the two calculator pages and the pages supporting
> them are quite simply the biggest pulls on the site, they help it
> maintain generally what are, for a small non-commercial site that
> doesn't pay anything to achieve high search engine rankings, quite
> respectable placings.
And very well deserved too, in my opinion.
--
Terry
Java Jive
wrote:
>
> Excel. (I'm trying to merge two tables into one, showing local trains
> and connections to a specific destination.) The tables are split up with
> a block of several stations, a separator bar, another block of stations
> and so on, to the end - like this:
>
> ------------------------
> Station A 1234 1244 1254
> Station B 1239 1249 1259
> ------------------------
> Station C .... 1310 ....
> Station D .... 1315 ....
> Station E 1310 1322 1320
> ------------------------
Yes, that's exactly the sort of layout that is a disaster in PDF.
> > Consequently, I won't spend any money on sorting out Ofcom's messy
> > data, but because the two calculator pages and the pages supporting
> > them are quite simply the biggest pulls on the site, they help it
> > maintain generally what are, for a small non-commercial site that
> > doesn't pay anything to achieve high search engine rankings, quite
> > respectable placings.
>
> And very well deserved too, in my opinion.
Thank you, kind sir!
Jim Lesurf
wrote:
> The guidance I used to have was to make available an accessible
> alternative (eg RTF or text) when publishing a PDF. But that's easy
> when starting with stuff in Word, FrameMaker, Excel or the like. What
> other format is better for scanned documents please?
It depends on what the people who want the *content* need it for, etc.
The simplest approach is to take well-scanned images and present them as
PNG or a similar open bitmap. Failing that if you can OCR and get sensible
results use a plain form of HTML if possible. That can handle tables OK if
they can be detected and obtained from the scan.
> Is a lot of it down just down to how easy it is to scan into PDF and get
> a result which looks good to the sighted without bothering about the
> accuracy of the text, structure, tags and so on?
The question from my POV about that is what does "scan into PDF" actually
mean when you look at the process being done by any software that does a
scan (bitmap) and tries to make it 'PDF'?
The simplest result is a PDF that simply has a series of compressed
bitmaps, one per page. The only advantage of that over a set of PNGs is
that they are neatly collected into one file. But you could easily have
done that with a zip. :-)
Alas, sometimes the result tries to 'clever' and then mucks up the
accessibily of the content by either spoiling the relationship of the items
on the page or losing it entirely.
> Those who scan and convert to RTF etc have to sort out the text and
> structure because there is nothing else and as JJ said that's hard work.
Whereas PDF may make the content lay out on the page. So seem fine to
human vision. But still lose all the actual content relationships. Meaning
details are no easier to extract than if given a bitmap.
Slainte,
Jim
--
Please use the address on the audiomisc page if you wish to email me.
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/intro/electron.htm
Armstrong Audio http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/Armstrong/armstrong.html
Audio Misc http://www.audiomisc.co.uk/index.html
Jim Lesurf
And in some cases each individual *character* is a shape (not a character)
or even a small bitmap!
PDF can be fine if you want the result to show nicely and print nicely
*and* it is well constructed. But it can mangle content and make content
extraction hard-to-impossible, depending on the details of the content and
how the PDF was generated.
The whole point of HTML/XML is to allow *content* to be accessible and
convertable, and allow layout to be handled seperately. Thus people really
should use openly defined HTML/XML as the basis for providing data if it is
expected that other may wish to do more than view or print it.
The purpose of formats like PDF and 'Word doc' is to tie users into having
to use the software produced by the people who came up with those specific
formats. Mangling the content is therefore to the advantage of Adobe or
MicroSoft. So hardly a surprise when this happens.
Jim Lesurf
<ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> Your point is fair enough, and makes the same sort of reasoning that
> made me relent on my original hard line to Bill.
> For the purposes you intend, PDF may be as good as anything else,
For reading and printing purposes PDF can be good.
> though I'd be strongly inclined to investigate further to try and find
> an alternative, anything to avoid storing something I may want to access
> at some indeterminate date in the future from being in a proprietary and
> obscure binary format. Perhaps there may be an Open Office format that
> might be suitable, but there again, like so many things associated with
> Linux, the OCR software may not support it as a destination format.
IIRC docx is actually a zip of XML files. The snag being - as usual - that
MicroSoft make the structure a PITA to get you to use their software. :-)
> However, if I was going to put anything on the web, I'd try and recreate
> them as true html. Yes, it's *lots* more work, which is why so few
> people, even few large corporations, do it, but the results are *so*
> much more compatible with everything else on the web.
It doesn't necessarily have to be *lots* more work. Depends on how
determined the author is to have a fancy layout, and force that down the
throats of all viewers. I've used HTML for years and done hundreds of
pages. The document processor I use (!TechWriter) makes this easy as it is
based on a structral layout approach and so exports neat HTML. But the
trade-off is accepting you don't get to force complex layouts on the
browser.
FWIW I've only recently started providing some PDF versions for the various
reasons mentioned. But I guess they are more convenient for many people if
they want to read complex layouts like equations and print out the pages
with good resolution.
> On Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:06:14 GMT, Steve Thackery <nob...@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > But again I ask: what alternative do you have that will maintain the
> > original look and feel of the document, including graphics, but still
> > be searchable from within Windows 7 or Adobe Reader?
I'm puzzled by the idea of being able to search content from "within W7". I
thought that was an OS not an application/user program. But I guess this
shows I don't use Windows much. :-)
> >
> > This is a genuine question - I'd be happy to use a better way of
> > storing my treasured old magazines.
I use bookcases and card boxes. Works fine and gives no problems with
worrying about changes in file formats mucking up what I can read. :-)
Rick
> Rick wrote:
>>
>> "Bill Wright" <bi...@invalid.com> wrote in message
>> news:iakjr0$efs$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> Sue wrote:
>>>
>>>> OT Bill what scanner do you have?
>>>
>>> Epson GT20000.
>>>
>>> I can't fault it for scan quality or user friendliness.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Perhaps we could start an occasional nostalgia corner, whereby
>> contributors could dig some of the older copies of long forgotten
>> magazines and post some of the items of the day, I managed to find a
>> couple of snippets, including one about early developments in
>> transistorised receivers and early colour TV and the U.S. (also from the
>> Practical Television) dating from about the same period as the ones you
>> posted.
>>
>> <https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PT1psp%20%28944%20x%201332%29.jpg>>
>>
>> <https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PT/ptgs1%20%281232%20x%201768%29.jpg>
>>
>> <
>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PTtransis%20%281168%20x%201694%29.jpg>
>
> They're very interesting. The brief mention on p400 of the Wenvoe site is
> interesting. The 1951 mag I have discusses the various possible sites.
> Strange to think the first idea was to put the tx in Somerset!
>
> The cover mentions 'aerials for Wenvoe.' I don't suppose you could be
> persuaded to scan those pages for me?
>
Unfortunately I couldn't find the inside of that particular cover, they were
stored in a workshop come shed for many decades and many of the pages had
become very fragile, however there is still a chance that it may be hidden
somewhere in the darkest recesses of my loft, it's just plucking up enough
courage to start looking, you know how it is, you go up there to get
something and then get sidetracked, sometimes for hours, by all the other
junk!
However I've uploaded a couple of pages written by that old curmudgeon
Iconos (anyone else remember him!) writing in 1953 about 3D and widescreen
TV.
<https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PTI1%20%28898%20x%201280%29.jpg>
<https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PTI2%20%28872%20x%201233%29.jpg>
Steve Thackery
> I'm puzzled by the idea of being able to search content from "within W7".
> I thought that was an OS not an application/user program. But I guess
> this shows I don't use Windows much. :-)
It does indeed. W7 includes a sophisticated indexing and search engine
which runs invisibly (to the user). It means you can click the 'Start'
orb and type some text, and if it exists in ANY* of your documents,
they will appear in a clickable list.
For instance, I've just clicked the start orb and typed "pendulum
isochronism" (without the quotes) and it offered me a list of all the
documents containing that phrase (Word documents and PDF files), along
with a list of twelve emails in Outlook that also contain it.
Before W7, I had to use Copernic Desktop Search (a fabulous product) to
get the same functionality.
SteveT
Steve Thackery
> I use bookcases and card boxes. Works fine and gives no problems with
> worrying about changes in file formats mucking up what I can read. :-)
In my experience it doesn't work fine. In fact, information inside a
magazine is, essentially, unreachable for all practical purposes.
For instance, I vaguely remember Royce Creasey writing in Bike magazine
a series of articles on how to improve the Royal Enfield Bullet engine.
I'm not even sure which decade it was, but as I now own a Royal
Enfield I'd quite like to read it.
If my old Bike magazines were in boxes in the loft, it would literally
take hours of searching to find what I want.
BUT, now that I've scanned them in, all I have to do is click the Start
orb in W7 and type "Royce Creasey", and every document on my hard disk
containing that phrase comes up in a list.
Better still, if I type ' "Royce Creasey" AND "Royal Enfield" ' it
homes right in on what I'm looking for.
It's also very useful because quite often I don't even know if I've got
any information on a subject. For instance, my brother was thinking of
buying a Canon Pixma 640 all-in-one device. I typed "Pixma 640" and
found a short review of it, which I didn't know I had because it was on
a page I'd scanned for another purpose.
I love my collection of old magazines, but searching through twenty
years' worth of Practical Wireless to see if they've ever published a
circuit diagram of a 60kHz MSF receiver is a nightmare.
So is scanning them in, but at least that isn't a recurring nightmare!
:-)
SteveT
Steve Thackery
..... and if it exists in ANY* of your documents, they...
Sorry, the * was going to say "almost any" - a large number of file
formats are supported, but not all.
SteveT
Steve Thackery
> I accept that this is a problem, and
> that PDF is in many cases an acceptable *interim* solution, but I
> don't think it should be viewed as the *final* solution.
But JJ, neither is HTML. PDF was invented for a number of reasons, one
of which being that HTML was never designed as a page description
language, and only now is it getting close to being adequate for that
purpose.
Furthermore, a major shortcoming of HTML is that it doesn't actually
control HOW the document is presented to the user. That is to say, the
user/browser can decide what fonts, and font sizes, to use; how the
lines wrap; how the graphics appear; etc.
If it's just textual information, where the only meaning is in the
words and numbers themselves, then HTML will do. But if you want full
control over the page layout, typefaces, colours, diagrams, etc, then
HTML most certainly won't do.
I think you should be advocating one of the XML variants rather than
HTML. A far more elegant and future-proof solution.
SteveT
Steve Thackery
> My first complaint is about the use of PDF. I accept that it is a
> de-facto web standard, but it is one that suffers from the critical
> disadvantage that it is a secret proprietary format.....
Hang on, it isn't secret! It's an open standard (since 2008): ISO/IEC
32000-1:2008.
SteveT
Java Jive
On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:53:42 GMT, Steve Thackery <nob...@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>
> Hang on, it isn't secret! It's an open standard (since 2008): ISO/IEC
> 32000-1:2008.
Java Jive
wrote:
>
> of which being that HTML was never designed as a page description
> language, and only now is it getting close to being adequate for that
> purpose.
In what way is it getting close to a page description language?
> Furthermore, a major shortcoming of HTML is that it doesn't actually
> control HOW the document is presented to the user. That is to say, the
> user/browser can decide what fonts, and font sizes, to use; how the
> lines wrap; how the graphics appear; etc.
That's not a shortcoming, it's a MAJOR ADVANTAGE! Are seriously
suggesting that a document viewed on a mobile phone should be
presented identically to one on a desktop PC?!
> If it's just textual information, where the only meaning is in the
> words and numbers themselves, then HTML will do. But if you want full
> control over the page layout, typefaces, colours, diagrams, etc, then
> HTML most certainly won't do.
Noone should aim to control completely how a document is presented,
unless they can control what device it's viewed on.
> I think you should be advocating one of the XML variants rather than
> HTML. A far more elegant and future-proof solution.
Well, at one time there was talk of subsuming HTML into the XML
standard as XHTML, and indeed all, I hope and believe, the pages on my
site will validate as XHTML.
However, web developer pros I chat with in another ng advocate that
people go for HTML5 rather than XHTML. When pressed for their
reasons, the biggest single one is that no version of Internet
Explorer* supports XHTML properly. In fact, although they'd probably
jump down my throat for suggesting this, I suspect that if IE did
support it properly they'd probably have little against it, but,
because MS decided not to support it, it looks like it might die.
* At least up to 8, I haven't had a look at the IE9 beta yet, but I
guess I ought soon, in case it's going to break my site.
Terry Casey
says...
> >> "Bill Wright" <bi...@invalid.com> wrote in message
> >> news:iakjr0$efs$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> >
> > They're very interesting. The brief mention on p400 of the Wenvoe site is
> > interesting. The 1951 mag I have discusses the various possible sites.
> > Strange to think the first idea was to put the tx in Somerset!
> >
> > The cover mentions 'aerials for Wenvoe.' I don't suppose you could be
> > persuaded to scan those pages for me?
> >
>
> Unfortunately I couldn't find the inside of that particular cover, they were
> stored in a workshop come shed for many decades and many of the pages had
> become very fragile, however there is still a chance that it may be hidden
> somewhere in the darkest recesses of my loft, it's just plucking up enough
> courage to start looking, you know how it is, you go up there to get
> something and then get sidetracked, sometimes for hours, by all the other
> junk!
>
Alan Pemberton has a good collection - I sent him some I had kicking
around to fill a gap in his collection a couple of years ago. I haven't
seen him post here recently but he might be able to help ...
http://www.pembers.freeserve.co.uk/
--
Terry
Rick
"Terry Casey" <kt...@example.invalid> wrote in message
I used to occasionally correspond with Alan, the last time I heard from him
he sent me a DVD disc with a lot of interesting vintage stuff on it in
exchange for a copy of a missing copy of 'Television' to complete his
collection, which he had recently, 'at long last' got organized, as you say
I haven't seen any posts from him for quite a while now, so I will e-mail
him, hope he's okay, but I'm sure Bill would have probably heard if he
wasn't.
Bill Wright
> I used to occasionally correspond with Alan, the last time I heard from
> him he sent me a DVD disc with a lot of interesting vintage stuff on it
> in exchange for a copy of a missing copy of 'Television' to complete his
> collection, which he had recently, 'at long last' got organized, as you
> say I haven't seen any posts from him for quite a while now, so I will
> e-mail him, hope he's okay, but I'm sure Bill would have probably heard
> if he wasn't.
My spies tell me that he is OK, at least in the sense of still being
alive. However, a year ago I committed some crime of email etiquette
which resulted in a long and I hope mutually satisfying corespondence
coming to an abrupt end. He wrote:
> To be honest, I don't give a stuff about you and your problems with your inferior operating system and software.
Your e-mail was rendered illegible with my compliant text-only mail
client and so I won't bother trying
to format a reply.
Your selfish pig-headedness is one of the many reasons I've decided to
pack in with the internet altogether.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Alan.
>
I haven't heard from him since. My etiquette crime must have been pretty
blooming serious.
Bill
Mark Carver
>> Alan Pemberton has a good collection - I sent him some I had kicking
>> around to fill a gap in his collection a couple of years ago. I haven't
>> seen him post here recently but he might be able to help ...
>>
>> http://www.pembers.freeserve.co.uk/
>
>
> I used to occasionally correspond with Alan, the last time I heard from
> him he sent me a DVD disc with a lot of interesting vintage stuff on it
> in exchange for a copy of a missing copy of 'Television' to complete his
> collection, which he had recently, 'at long last' got organized, as you
> say I haven't seen any posts from him for quite a while now, so I will
> e-mail him, hope he's okay, but I'm sure Bill would have probably heard
> if he wasn't.
Alan is indeed alive and well. We exchanged emails last week. He's given
up on this group, and Usenet in general because of the proportion of
offensive and idiotic posters, and he only connects to the internet at
all every few days. A great shame, because he was a valued contributor
in here. You can still contact him via the routes you've used in the past.
Jim Lesurf
> > I'm puzzled by the idea of being able to search content from "within
> > W7". I thought that was an OS not an application/user program. But I
> > guess this shows I don't use Windows much. :-)
> It does indeed. W7 includes a sophisticated indexing and search engine
> which runs invisibly (to the user). It means you can click the 'Start'
> orb and type some text, and if it exists in ANY* of your documents,
> they will appear in a clickable list.
Interesting that M$ present that as 'part of the OS'. In *nix the same
ability to seach sets of files for their content (with regex if you like
IIUC) has been around for years, but I don't know if *nix users would say
it was part of the OS. Although *nix is based on the "everything is a file"
philosophy. And as you said, explicit apps for this have existed. Maybe
this is another instance of the way M$ like to make everything 'part of the
OS' to try and smother competition. :-)
Jim Lesurf
<ja...@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Nov 2010 18:50:21 GMT, Steve Thackery <nob...@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > But JJ, neither is HTML. PDF was invented for a number of reasons,
> > one of which being that HTML was never designed as a page description
> > language, and only now is it getting close to being adequate for that
> > purpose.
> In what way is it getting close to a page description language?
I also wonder about that since HTML is meant *not* to bind layout on the
assumption of a printable page.
>
> > Furthermore, a major shortcoming of HTML is that it doesn't actually
> > control HOW the document is presented to the user. That is to say,
> > the user/browser can decide what fonts, and font sizes, to use; how
> > the lines wrap; how the graphics appear; etc.
> That's not a shortcoming, it's a MAJOR ADVANTAGE!
Agreed. Indeed, it is one of the main purposes of HTML to allow each
individual user/browser to choose what rendering *they* want for the
content.
> * At least up to 8, I haven't had a look at the IE9 beta yet, but I
> guess I ought soon, in case it's going to break my site.
Dont' you mean, "Ah! looks like IE users won't be able to read correctly
specified HTML... again?" 8-]
One of the points of HTML is that the user can choose the browser and
rendering they prefer. So I guess that can use FF or Chrome, or NetSurf,
or... Shouldn't be the task of the author to have to work out all the
choices. Just to write sensible HTML. If the browser can't render that, its
down to the people producing the browser.
Jim Lesurf
> > I use bookcases and card boxes. Works fine and gives no problems with
> > worrying about changes in file formats mucking up what I can read. :-)
> In my experience it doesn't work fine. In fact, information inside a
> magazine is, essentially, unreachable for all practical purposes.
That's certainly true if you lack a good index or an excellent memory. My
memory is rubbish, but I do tend to index things. Habit of an academic. ;->
I agree that having a fully electronically searchable index is useful. I
wrote a new app to do that for my JAES CDROM backset. The article files are
all compressed PDFs with meaningless file-names. The original search engine
provided assumed Doze/Mac/Nix of an ancient vintage and wouldn't run on
anything I had. Only provided as executable code.
So I had to do a new version which scans the metadata files. (Had to
reverse engineer their content.) It then puts up an HTML page so I can
click and load the chosen PDF.
Life would have been far easier if the files were XML and had sensible file
names that told you what the content was. And easier if the AES had
insisted on having the source code for the search engine and metadata. So,
yes, the result is useful. But a right PITA to get sorted.
The good news was that I got a RISC OS version working as well as one for
current *nix, and have the source code in case anyone wants an updated
version.
However I guess I am old fashioned. I tend to prefer paper indexes and
magazines.
Steve Thackery
> Interesting that M$ present that as 'part of the OS'. In *nix the same
> ability to seach sets of files for their content (with regex if you like
> IIUC) has been around for years.....
I think the difference with W7, and with the commercial apps like
Copernic, is that they actually index the files, not just search them.
Even on a Linux machine, searching through tens of thousands of files
for a text string using regex takes some time.
Mind you, perhaps there is an indexer that uses regex in the
background? That would be very much like the W7 and Copernic approach,
then.
I'm OK with it being "part of the OS". In fact, WinFS was going to be
a new file system to replace NTFS, and was designed from the beginning
to be inherently indexable like this (i.e. built into the filing
system, rather than an app that runs as a background service and has to
build the index by searching every file on the disk). That would
certainly have counted as "part of the OS".
SteveT
Steve Thackery
> In what way is it getting close to a page description language?
Only in the sense that layout control is richer than ever, so with
suitable co-operation from the browser, web pages can look ever more
like a printed page.
> That's not a shortcoming, it's a MAJOR ADVANTAGE! Are seriously
> suggesting that a document viewed on a mobile phone should be
> presented identically to one on a desktop PC?!
You've completely missed my point: of course I'm not suggesting that.
That's one advantage of HTML: the layout is NOT fixed.
HOWEVER - in this thread we're talking about scanning in old magazines.
In that case, I DEFINITELY DO want the layout preserving, an
preferably the original typefaces, etc. HTML is NOT suitable for that
purpose, and I can't understand why you keep saying it is.
PDF (text-behind-image) is much better at preserving the appearance of
the page, although we've all agreed it has other shortcomings, which
you've described.
> Noone should aim to control completely how a document is presented,
> unless they can control what device it's viewed on.
I don't agree. It's surely up to the publisher of the document to
decide whether they want to control the page layout as well as the
content. Some do, some don't. If they do, then HTML is no good. If
they don't, then HTML is fine.
It may or may not suit you or me, but that's tough luck - it's the
publisher's right to choose.
STeveT
Java Jive
wrote:
>
> In that case, I DEFINITELY DO want the layout preserving, an
> preferably the original typefaces, etc. HTML is NOT suitable for that
> purpose, and I can't understand why you keep saying it is.
It's a question of priorities. For myself, I wouldn't be interested
in preserving the look of the original at the expense of usability,
I'd want the result in the most easily *usable* form, and that
wouldn't be PDF. However, if your biggest priority is that the result
resembles the original, then perhaps PDF would be right for that.
> I don't agree. It's surely up to the publisher of the document to
> decide whether they want to control the page layout as well as the
> content. Some do, some don't. If they do, then HTML is no good. If
> they don't, then HTML is fine.
>
> It may or may not suit you or me, but that's tough luck - it's the
> publisher's right to choose.
It is, but the wise publisher recognises that the modern world is as
it is, with a plethora of devices of all shapes and sizes any of which
may wish to access his/her content, and so to seek to control the page
layout as intimately as PDF does is ultimately futile, and
self-defeating.
J G Miller
> Even on a Linux machine, searching through tens of thousands of files
> for a text string using regex takes some time.
That is why htdig was invented.
Jim Lesurf
> > Interesting that M$ present that as 'part of the OS'. In *nix the same
> > ability to seach sets of files for their content (with regex if you
> > like IIUC) has been around for years.....
> Mind you, perhaps there is an indexer that uses regex in the
> background? That would be very much like the W7 and Copernic approach,
> then.
I can't say for sure as it's not something I've looked for myself, and I'm
no expert on *nix. But I'd be surprised if there aren't already a number of
*nix ways to do that. It's the kind of info processing task that I'd
suspect pro users have had to do many times over the years.
Plus, running some processes 'in the background' and in a timed/automated
manner is a well established approach for *nix. It's the land of cron,
grep, etc. ;->
Richard Tobin
Steve Thackery <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>Mind you, perhaps there is an indexer that uses regex in the
>background?
Regular expressions are a way of specifying a search, not of indexing.
Indexing so as to make general regular expression search efficient
sounds like a research topic to me... Google shows a few papers
on the subject.
-- Richard
Terry Casey
ja...@evij.com.invalid says...
>
> On Mon, 1 Nov 2010 15:22:19 -0000, Terry Casey <kt...@example.invalid>
> wrote:
> >
> > A couple of weeks ago I used the site to convert a railway timetable to
> > Excel. (I'm trying to merge two tables into one, showing local trains
> > and connections to a specific destination.) The tables are split up with
> > a block of several stations, a separator bar, another block of stations
> > and so on, to the end - like this:
> >
> > ------------------------
> > Station A 1234 1244 1254
> > Station B 1239 1249 1259
> > ------------------------
> > Station C .... 1310 ....
> > Station D .... 1315 ....
> > Station E 1310 1322 1320
> > ------------------------
>
Having seen how much better the Word conversion handled the Ofcom
document, I tried one of my timetable files yesterday. The best part of
90 minutes later, I hadn't seen any trace of the converted file, so I
sent another ...
There is obviously a considerable increase in demand for this service on
a weekday! The files were returned, each mail being times 3h 45m after
the upload (though they still neede a lot longer to get to my mail box.
As with the Ofcom file, a very crditable result - the only problem was
with station names, which tended to be grouped in a single cell - but
this was easily resolved. The time tables themselves look perfect.
It looks, therefore, as if this utility will work well with most, if not
all, pdf files - provided you're not in a hurry (but I can't tweek any
other format that quickly, anyway!)
Mark - did you ever get your file(s) back ...?
--
Terry
Mark Carver
>
> Mark - did you ever get your file(s) back ...?
Nope :-(
Tried again yesterday using a different email address, and ticking the
'Receive News from Nitro' box, and still nuffink.
Just found this site:-
So I've sent a file there to see what happens.
--
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.
Graham.
"Rick" <ri...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:mTlzo.13080$qS7....@newsfe13.ams2...
>>
>>> OT Bill what scanner do you have?
>>
>> Epson GT20000.
>>
>> I can't fault it for scan quality or user friendliness.
>>
>>
>
>
> Perhaps we could start an occasional nostalgia corner, whereby
> contributors could dig some of the older copies of long forgotten
> magazines and post some of the items of the day, I managed to find a
> couple of snippets, including one about early developments in
> transistorised receivers and early colour TV and the U.S. (also from the
> Practical Television) dating from about the same period as the ones you
> posted.
>
> <https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PT1psp%20%28944%20x%201332%29.jpg>>
>
> <https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PT/ptgs1%20%281232%20x%201768%29.jpg>
>
> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/11815200/PTtransis%20%281168%20x%201694%29.jpg>
I love the not-so-smart-card descrambling system in the first article, I
wonder how it worked?
--
Graham.
%Profound_observation%
Terry Casey
mark....@invalid.invalid says...
>
> Terry Casey wrote:
>
> >
> > Mark - did you ever get your file(s) back ...?
>
> Nope :-(
>
> Tried again yesterday using a different email address, and ticking the
> 'Receive News from Nitro' box, and still nuffink.
>
> Just found this site:-
>
> http://www.pdftoexcel.org/
>
> So I've sent a file there to see what happens.
Having found that the pdf - word - excel route gave better results with
the Nitro service, I tried this:
http://www.pdfonline.com/pdf2word/index.asp
after reading this:
http://www.freewaregenius.com/2010/03/06/how-to-convert-pdf-to-word-doc-
for-free-a-comparative-test/
Not quite as good (inseted a couple of blank columns in the tables) but,
overall, pretty good.
I will try your suggestion later (I think there's also a similar review
for Excel convertors on the freewaregenius site.)
--
Terry
Terry Casey
>
> >
> > Mark - did you ever get your file(s) back ...?
>
> Nope :-(
>
> Tried again yesterday using a different email address, and ticking the
> 'Receive News from Nitro' box, and still nuffink.
>
> Just found this site:-
>
> http://www.pdftoexcel.org/
>
> So I've sent a file there to see what happens.
Impressive!
I got a link to the converted file, followed by a mail asking me to
confirm my e-mail address so that they could send me the link, which was
a bit odd.
Also, unless I'm dreaming, the mail with the link is timed before I
submitted the file ...
(32 minutes difference between mails, though both seem to have arrived
together ...!)
This seems to concentrate on recovering the data and ignore cell
formatting such as borders. To my mind, they've got their priorities
right ...
--
Terry