Is Anybody out there?!
Andy Neal
Steve Bolam
Andy Neal <ah...@GREENCARDmetrocast.net> writes
>Tester for a new setup......
Flaxby has been closed since 17th Dec due to snow...
Hopefully open by the 24th for 3 clubs and a putter.
So a question to all..
Which clubs would you take?
Happy new year to all by the way ;*)
--
Peter Strauss
> Tester for a new setup......
Peter from California, for one.
This place has been alarmingly quiet for a long time.
Hope everyone's OK.
p.
Peter Strauss
> In article <mvOdnRyz6MVCnt_W...@metrocastcablevision.com>,
> Andy Neal <ah...@GREENCARDmetrocast.net> writes
>> Tester for a new setup......
> Yup I'm here..
> Flaxby has been closed since 17th Dec due to snow...
>
> Hopefully open by the 24th for 3 clubs and a putter.
>
> So a question to all..
> Which clubs would you take?
I've done it with 3W, 7I and wedge.
> Happy new year to all by the way ;*)
Same to you, Steve.
p.
John van der Pflum
<Steve...@Bolam.Org.Beefplease> wrote:
>In article <mvOdnRyz6MVCnt_W...@metrocastcablevision.com>,
>Andy Neal <ah...@GREENCARDmetrocast.net> writes
>>Tester for a new setup......
>Yup I'm here..
>Flaxby has been closed since 17th Dec due to snow...
>
>Hopefully open by the 24th for 3 clubs and a putter.
>
>So a question to all..
>Which clubs would you take?
I'd probably go with a hybrid, 6 iron, and 9 iron.
IMO, it's too bad they let you have three clubs plus a putter. It
would be more fun if you had only three clubs.
--
jvdp
Hey Annika, you'll never hold these:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rockpyle/3940732311/
Alan Campbell
Pflum <nowhammy...@bite.org> writes
>On Mon, 4 Jan 2010 20:26:14 +0000, Steve Bolam
><Steve...@Bolam.Org.Beefplease> wrote:
>
>>In article <mvOdnRyz6MVCnt_W...@metrocastcablevision.com>,
>>Andy Neal <ah...@GREENCARDmetrocast.net> writes
>>>Tester for a new setup......
>>Yup I'm here..
>>Flaxby has been closed since 17th Dec due to snow...
>>
>>Hopefully open by the 24th for 3 clubs and a putter.
>>
>>So a question to all..
>>Which clubs would you take?
>
>I'd probably go with a hybrid, 6 iron, and 9 iron.
>
>IMO, it's too bad they let you have three clubs plus a putter. It
>would be more fun if you had only three clubs.
3 wood 5 iron 9 iron
--
Alan Campbell
Jan ( Bouli ) Van Gerwen
"Steve Bolam" <Steve...@Bolam.Org.Beefplease> schreef in bericht
news:fGgL8VAm...@ntlworld.com...
> In article <mvOdnRyz6MVCnt_W...@metrocastcablevision.com>,
> Andy Neal <ah...@GREENCARDmetrocast.net> writes
>>Tester for a new setup......
> Yup I'm here..
> Flaxby has been closed since 17th Dec due to snow...
>
> Hopefully open by the 24th for 3 clubs and a putter.
>
> So a question to all..
> Which clubs would you take?
>
clubs.
Greetz Jan
Sandy
Millport GC looks wonderful - under the snow! but the Curling pond is
playable so life isn't too bad!
Alan Campbell
writes
Excellent!! Grand Match looming?
--
Alan Campbell
Mark Myers
> Tester for a new setup......
>
Happy New Year! (belated)
--
Mark Myers
usenet at mcm2007 dot plus dot com
I call that a radical interpretation of the text.
JPW
there. Would I rather be here under a foot of snow or out there with
Peter in Sunny California? What a silly question. But I suppose that
John has a lot more snow than we here, in Canada!
Just to make some kind of talking point I've had a long e-mail
discussion with a friend about Provisional balls. Perhaps those who
feel inclined would like to give their tuppennyworth. The question
that I put to you is very simple. "When does the provisional ball
become the ball in play? " Forget the five minutes for that is not the
point under inspection; rather read 27-2 as it stands and put your own
words to interpret what you see there. Does anyone see anything
problematical there?
I'll look back here again tomorrow. Off to clear the drive again.
JPW
Peter Strauss
of 27-2b.
"Where the original ball is likely to be": what a concept.
Properly stated, it should read, "Where the player deems the ball is
likely to be," seems to me, and brings to the forefront such concepts as
honesty and integrity.
The temptation to fudge on one's guesstimate as to where the ball is
likely to be is sometimes great. Combine that with the usual
impossibility of telling just where that ball might have been just
before its disappearance, and you've got a major conundrum.
Perhaps it should read, "Where the original ball was last seen," or
something like that; that might make it simpler to locate the spot
beyond which, if one plays a provisional, it becomes the ball in play.
Gnarly situation, Pat.
p.
JPW
As I have suspected for some time, the group appears to be no more.
There is only you and I to discuss what may be nothing at all. Below
are my thoughts on one part of 27-2. Give it some thought and if you
consider it worth commenting upon then I would be pleased to hear from
you.
On page 17 of the “bible” it is stated “ The Rule book is written in
a VERY precise and deliberate fashion. You should be aware of and
understand etc…”
We see two troubling points that arise from the way that it is
written.
One…. 27.2b shows as its heading “ When the provisional ball becomes
the ball in play.” It follows that with…” The player may play a
provisional ball until HE reaches… etc.” That, if interpreted in ‘a
VERY precise and deliberate fashion’, means that the governing factor
is when the player reaches the position where the original ball is
likely to be. But we all know that the factor is the position of the
provisional ball when played and not HE (the player’s ) position. He
could have reached that position by simply walking beyond that point
whilst having a look for the original which may be lost. That
certainly does not deem the original lost.
The second point is a phrase that is entirely superfluous….”makes a
stroke with the provisional ball FROM the place where the original
ball is likely to be”. This is assuming that the provisional ball has
been hit to exactly the same place as the original. How often can any
player hit two consecutive shots which are so identical to be hit to
the very same place? It is not possible because if it happened then
the two balls would be lying literally one on top of the other.
Just interpreting the rule as written in a VERY precise and deliberate
fashion.
We had three weeks just south of Bradenton just before Christmas,
Peter. Temperatures no lower than 89 degrees. Oh for a touch of that
just now.
Pat
david s-a
In my view, 'the place where the original ball is likely to be' is the
place where any of the the player's side, including his/their caddies,
start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing.
The provisional ball becomes the ball in play if the player makes a
stroke with it from this place or from a point nearer the hole than this
place. It also becomes the ball in play as soon as it is lifted with the
intention of taking relief from a condition allowed under the rules at
either of these places
If the original ball is known and virtually certain to be out of bounds
at the outset the second ball is not a provisional ball and is the ball
in play. If the original ball is discovered to be out of bounds during
the search the provisional ball has always been the ball in play.
The provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as the original is
deemed lost outside a water hazard, unless the provisional ball itself
is also out of bounds..in which case it was only momentarily the ball in
play. At that point there is no ball in play unless a further
provisional ball has been played..which then becomes the ball in play!
If a player holes his provisional ball, and his original is not found in
the meantime (within the five minute search time) the provisional ball
becomes the ball in play as soon as it is removed from the hole.
'Vic Open' starts tomorrow at Spring Valley GC, Melbourne..'Yours Truly'
is a 'Rules rover', not walking, thank goodness!. Forecast weather:-
(Temps �C)
Forecast for Thursday
Sunny. Winds south to southeasterly averaging up to 30 km/h.
City Sunny. Min 13 Max 28 (82.4�F)
Forecast for Friday
Mostly sunny. Light northerly winds and afternoon bayside seabreezes.
City Mostly sunny. Min 16 Max 36 (96.8�F)
Forecast for Saturday
Mostly sunny. Winds northwesterly averaging 10 to 20 km/h tending south
to southwesterly up to 30 km/h during the afternoon.
City Mostly sunny. Min 21 Max 38 (100.4�F)
Forecast for Sunday
Sunny. Winds south to southwesterly averaging up to 20 km/h tending
south to southeasterly during the evening.
City Sunny. Min 18 Max 31 (87.8�F)
There's me bus, must go!
cheers
david
David Howard
"JPW" <pat....@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:f05ac414-4005-492d...@f5g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Peter,
Pat
Pat, as a long time lurker, and a very occasional poster of questions,
mainly because others are first with more intelligent responses, I find it
surprising that a post which had a response of 12 other posters deserved
that comment. Are you perhaps reading this on a medium which doesn't show
all the posts?
I found David's answer most interesting, and would not dream of disagreeing.
Incidentally, having twice holidayed in Sarasota and Naples in the spring, I
concur with your comment,
Regards, David H.
JPW
> Pat, as a long time lurker, and a very occasional poster of questions,
> mainly because others are first with more intelligent responses, I find it
> surprising that a post which had a response of 12 other posters deserved
> that comment. Are you perhaps reading this on a medium which doesn't show
> all the posts?
> I found David's answer most interesting, and would not dream of disagreeing.
> Incidentally, having twice holidayed in Sarasota and Naples in the spring, I
> concur with your comment,
> Regards, David H.
David,
Perhaps I should have made myself a little clearer.
This group at one time contained about a dozen posts from different
posters PER DAY. Having lurked as you said you should be able to
recall that time. Other than a few spam posts from China there were no
posts at all from 21st December until the one that I made comment in
on the 4th January, thats 14 days silence!
That is the point that I should have made.
Sorry if I have misled you.
Pat
JPW
Thanks for your response. You touch on one of the points under
discussion. In the following paragraph you describe 'the place'
perfectly and your reason for commencing timing at the time stated is
without question.
In my view, 'the place where the original ball is likely to be' is
the
place where any of the the player's side, including his/their
caddies,
start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing.
In your next paragraph (below) you follow 27-2b exactly by using
**from this place**.
How many times as a referee, and in your private play, have you seen a
provisional ball come to rest 'at this place'?
'Nearer the hole than this place' is quite an acceptable description
of a point which contributes to making the provisional ball become the
ball in play!
The provisional ball becomes the ball in play if the player makes a
stroke with it ******from this place******* or from a point nearer the
hole than this
place. It also becomes the ball in play as soon as it is lifted with
the
intention of taking relief from a condition allowed under the rules
at
either of these places
You should see the TV pictures of Yorkshire. They would make you wish
you were an enthusiastic skier!
Happy Southern New Year.
Pat
Paul Schmitz-Josten
>>Hopefully open by the 24th for 3 clubs and a putter.
>>
>>So a question to all..
>>Which clubs would you take?
>
>I'd probably go with a hybrid, 6 iron, and 9 iron.
>
>IMO, it's too bad they let you have three clubs plus a putter. It
>would be more fun if you had only three clubs.
That's how it's usually done here in a "Portugese" tournament.
For that, I'd like to take the hybrid, 6 + 9 irons (and declare the hybrid
(<http://valueguide.pga.com/images/Sonartec/woods/md_large.jpg>)
to be the putter ;-> )
For a private fun tournament on winter greens we once sent our friends out
in pairs (best ball scoring) with one club each and the allowance to share
these two clubs between them. That was good fun - we even had two
lefthanders to build a team ;->
Ciao,
Paul
AS
> place where any of the the player's side, including his/their caddies,
> start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing.
Definitely 'out here' occasionally... !
A common situ I come across is the 'optional' provisional ball i.e. a
player hits towards a thicket, plays a provisional and announces their
intention of playing the original only if it missed the thicket. They
search only in 'nice' places, declare the provisional ball in play, and
play on.
They have no wish to cheat, cos if someone spots the original they curse
and duly play it.
Could be a little tricky in a match...
AS
Paul Schmitz-Josten
Don't know why, but your post appeared on one news server with great delay
compared to the other (Wednesday after 3 p.m.)
("When does the provisional ball become the ball in play?" (RoG 27-2))
>In my view, 'the place where the original ball is likely to be' is the
>place where any of the the player's side, including his/their caddies,
>start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing.
What if they don't start to look because they want to play the provisional
without searching? ;->
>The provisional ball becomes the ball in play if the player makes a
>stroke with it from this place or from a point nearer the hole than this
>place.
See above...
>It also becomes the ball in play as soon as it is lifted with the
>intention of taking relief from a condition allowed under the rules at
>either of these places
ACK. Never thought of this before, though.
>If the original ball is known and virtually certain to be out of bounds
>at the outset the second ball is not a provisional ball and is the ball
>in play.
The rule says: "If a ball may be OOB... a provisional ball may be
played..."
Does this prevent the player from playing a provisional if the first ball
is "known" to be OOB?
Imagine this real situation: I once played a slice high into the woods at
the right hand side - nothing to be seen, no sound heard - and the second
one to the left. There I found my original ball (brand and number) on the
fairway - it must have bounced out of the wood and some 40 m across the
course though I was virtually certain that it was deep in the forest.
Was the second ball no provisional even if I named it so?
>If the original ball is discovered to be out of bounds during
>the search the provisional ball has always been the ball in play.
Consequences? (curious)
>The provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as the original is
>deemed lost outside a water hazard, [...]
IMO a player cannot deem a ball lost. He may refrain from looking for it
or stop searching, but the only facts which replace a lost ball are
- expiration of the five minutes,
- to bring another ball into play,
or
- to play the provisional from closer to the hole.
>[...] unless the provisional ball itself
>is also out of bounds..in which case it was only momentarily the ball in
>play. At that point there is no ball in play unless a further
>provisional ball has been played..which then becomes the ball in play!
You are correct but I'd lose some friends if I'd cite you on the course ;->
>If a player holes his provisional ball, and his original is not found in
>the meantime (within the five minute search time) the provisional ball
>becomes the ball in play as soon as it is removed from the hole.
ACK & Ciao,
Paul
John van der Pflum
That's exactly what I did. Three of us took a brake from the "big"
courses when we were in St. Andrews and played a three club match at
the Strathyrum (pretty sure I butchered that spelling). I took the
hybrid, a 7I, and a 52* wedge. I putted with the hybrid as well as I
do with my regular putter! :-)
Peter Strauss
> Peter,
>
> As I have suspected for some time, the group appears to be no more.
> There is only you and I to discuss what may be nothing at all. Below
> are my thoughts on one part of 27-2. Give it some thought and if you
> consider it worth commenting upon then I would be pleased to hear from
> you.
>
> a VERY precise and deliberate fashion. You should be aware of and
>
> The second point is a phrase that is entirely superfluous�.�makes a
> stroke with the provisional ball FROM the place where the original
> been hit to exactly the same place as the original. How often can any
> player hit two consecutive shots which are so identical to be hit to
> the very same place? It is not possible because if it happened then
> the two balls would be lying literally one on top of the other.
>
> Just interpreting the rule as written in a VERY precise and deliberate
> fashion.
Yeah, that's really gnarly.
>
> We had three weeks just south of Bradenton just before Christmas,
> Peter. Temperatures no lower than 89 degrees. Oh for a touch of that
> just now.
Very nice! It hasn't been above 50-52 here for a long time.
don't know when I'm going out next.
Looking at next week, but have to check the long-range forecast.
I don't do rain :-)
Peter
JohnT
Hi Pat,
Happy New Year to you and everyone else in the group.
Here in Bayfield, it started snowing on New Year's Eve and it didn't
stop until Monday lunchtime. During that period approximately two feet
of snow accumulated. Because December was so mild, in relative terms,
Lake Huron has not yet frozen other than very close to shore.
Consequently we are getting a lot of "lake effect snow". You should
Google that term for a full explanation of the phenomenon.
Your question on on provisional ball has been well answered by now.
All I can add is that, when officiating in PGA events in Ireland, we
always paid close attention to a caddie who had been sent down the
fairway to watch the tee shots. More than one player has had a rude
awakening when he was told three or four minutes later that I started
to stopwatch when his caddie made the first move to look for his ball
- even if only for a few seconds before going back to watch the
subsequent tee shots. The search had been started by the player's side
and you cannot stop-start a search. In RCGA amateur events, caddies
are more of a rarity or, quite frequently, barred by a condition of
competition.
Cheers
JohnT
david s-a
> david s-a in <7qhosk...@mid.individual.net>:
>
> What if they don't start to look because they want to play the provisional
> without searching? ;->
>
>> The provisional ball becomes the ball in play if the player makes a
>> stroke with it from this place or from a point nearer the hole than this
>> place.
>
> See above...
If the relevant persons decide not to search for the ball, there is
still nevertheless a place where the ball is likely to be. In deciding
not to search for the ball one presumes that the ball is likely to be
OOB, or is otherwise in an unplayable area. The players proceed at the
risk of the original ball being found, by others, in a water hazard, or
elsewhere, and even in an unplayable position.. Its actual location and
the timing of its discovery can be addressed in terms of the rules and
the game can move on from there accordingly.
>
>> It also becomes the ball in play as soon as it is lifted with the
>> intention of taking relief from a condition allowed under the rules at
>> either of these places
>
> ACK. Never thought of this before, though.
>
>> If the original ball is known and virtually certain to be out of bounds
>> at the outset the second ball is not a provisional ball and is the ball
>> in play.
>
> The rule says: "If a ball may be OOB... a provisional ball may be
> played..."
>
> Does this prevent the player from playing a provisional if the first ball
> is "known" to be OOB?
Of course it does, the definition of a 'provisional ball' says it all,
it can only be played for a ball that MAYBE OOB or lost outside a water
hazard.
>
> Imagine this real situation: I once played a slice high into the woods at
> the right hand side - nothing to be seen, no sound heard - and the second
> one to the left. There I found my original ball (brand and number) on the
> fairway - it must have bounced out of the wood and some 40 m across the
> course though I was virtually certain that it was deep in the forest.
> Was the second ball no provisional even if I named it so?
....yes, this was a valid call. The location of a ball can rarely be
known or virtually certain if there are trees intervening on its line of
flight (or dribble!)
>> If the original ball is discovered to be out of bounds during
>> the search the provisional ball has always been the ball in play.
>
> Consequences? (curious)
No consequences, just a fact of life!
>
>> The provisional ball becomes the ball in play as soon as the original is
>> deemed lost outside a water hazard, [...]
>
> IMO a player cannot deem a ball lost. He may refrain from looking for it
> or stop searching, but the only facts which replace a lost ball are
> - expiration of the five minutes,
> - to bring another ball into play,
> or
> - to play the provisional from closer to the hole.
>
Paul, I did not suggest that the player himself deemed the ball 'lost'.
It is the Rules of Golf that deem the ball lost if it is not found
within the five minute search period, or if a stroke and distance
procedure is adopted before the time expires, or if the provisional is
played from a place closer to the hole. Be careful about the phase 'to
bring another ball into play'. Unless it is done according to the stroke
and distance procedure then there is a possible case for an illegal
substitution of a ball for a ball in play.
ciao
David
david s-a
> David,
>
> Thanks for your response. You touch on one of the points under
> discussion. In the following paragraph you describe 'the place'
> perfectly and your reason for commencing timing at the time stated is
> without question.
>
>
> In my view, 'the place where the original ball is likely to be' is
> the
> place where any of the the player's side, including his/their
> caddies,
> start looking for it. When observing play this where I start timing.
>
>
> In your next paragraph (below) you follow 27-2b exactly by using
> **from this place**.
> How many times as a referee, and in your private play, have you seen a
> provisional ball come to rest 'at this place'?
> 'Nearer the hole than this place' is quite an acceptable description
> of a point which contributes to making the provisional ball become the
> ball in play!
>
Pat,
If you want to put this to bed, at dinner last night I spoke with R&A
Director-Rules of Golf, Grant Moir, who is visiting Melbourne as part of
a Golf Australia Rules of Golf Workshop, and had joined us for the day
at the 'Vic Open'.
I discussed this very point with him...he was perplexed at first, then
called for a Rule Book...then agreed that he saw our point. We finally
agreed that the phrase 'at this place' etc should really be read as
'this area' etc...!!. As to 'how often do you see a provisional ball'
land in the same area as the original....the answer is 'quite often' in
my experience...it is not at all unusual. I complained that 'why should
a provisional ball played from that area' render the original ball
'lost', when a provisional ball played from any other equidistant (from
the hole) point doesn't., and why does that particular part of the rule
exist anyway!' He was silent on that.
He did share a story on an unusual situations submitted for a
'decision', where a group of three elderly gentlemen had tee'd off and
having hit their balls into a suspect area all except one had played
provisionals. They went forward to search and the two with provisionals
found their balls while the third searched for the full five minute
period allowed and failed to find his ball. He returned to the tee and
on arriving he was surprised to find his ball sitting neatly on a tee on
the teeing ground. HE HAD FORGOTTEN TO PLAY HIS TEE SHOT!!!!
So what was the ruling for a player who had searched five minutes for a
ball that he had not even put into play? It seems that in equity the R&A
expressed sympathy for the gentleman concerned, wrote him a kind letter
explaining that they were unable to find any reason to penalise
him...and asked him to keep his wits about him when on the teeing ground
in future!!
cheers
david
JPW
Thank you very much for the note above, David. It helps me to think
that I may not have been nit-picking as one of my friends states (he
is an affiliated referee here in the UK). I've just sent him a copy of
your mail.
I have absolutely no problem with 'this area' as opposed to 'this
place' because it can only be an area that the second ball arrives at.
Again I have no problem with a second ball arriving at a similar area,
but 'place' ....ugh.
You didn't happen to mention the other point about 'he' and 'it', did
you or perhaps you might also think it nit picking?
As for the story of the old fellow forgetting to hit his ball from the
tee I could well relate to that. So many times I go home after an
afternoon round and my missus says "Who did you play with today?" I
always seem to have the devil of a job remembering all three names.
She suffers me in silence probably waiting for the day when I cannot
answer the question "And who am I?"
Pat
JPW
David,
Thank you for taking the trouble to bring this point up to Mr. Moir. I
have no problem at all in accepting 'the area' for 'the place' for, as
I have previously said, for the provisional ball to be at the same
place as the original is not possible. With area substituted it is of
course very possible for the ball to arrive at 'the same area'.
You didn't happen to discuss the 'he' and 'it' point that I raised too
did you?
As for the three old men playing I could well imagine myself to be the
forgetful one for many is the time I go home for the missus to say to
me ' Who did you play with?' Then I have a problem in remembering all
three names. I suppose that she will start getting worried when I
cannot give an answer to "Who am I?" if she happens to ask it.
Regards
Pat
Peter Strauss
...and asked him to keep his wits about him when on the teeing ground
> in future!!
If I kept my wits about me when on the teeing ground, I'd immediately
repair to the 19th hole. I credit my entire golfing career to a
near-terminal loss of wits.
p.
david s-a
> You didn't happen to mention the other point about 'he' and 'it', did
> you or perhaps you might also think it nit picking?
Actually, although it wasn't this particular point I was talking about,
when I introduced myself, I asked him if he would address a couple of
queries I had. When we had finished with the first point, as above, he
remarked "...and the other point was?". I rather foolishly had to say
"....er, actually I have forgotten what it was!". Even now, 36 hours
later, I still cannot remember what it was!! I do recall the red ned was
a particularly fine drop though!
cheers
david
>