ALL MUSLIMS SHOULD UNNDERSTAND THIS
alpha
After reading many postings on Christian newsgroups and Muslim
newsgroups I have noticed there are many posts which are aimed at
converting people from one faith to their own faith but very little
effort being made to understand the differences between the
Monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Above all
there is a mass of postings made by Christians attempting to teach
Muslims the message of Jesus and Christianity. I myself am a Muslim
(Islam) and find it very disturbing that so many Christians seem to
have little to no understanding of just what it is that Muslims
believe.
Perhaps as a Christian you have no wish to understand either since you
have found a set of teachings that you believe are the truth and have
therefore dismissed all other religions as being false religions. As a
Muslim my religion is Islam and the scripture that I try to live my
life by is the Koran. In the Koran it is written that humans should
question all things and that God expects and encourages this as the way
to find truth. Like Christians we also believe that when you here the
truth (be it gods will) you will know it and recognize it if you use
reason. I am sure that as Christians you will believe the same thing
since to encourage blind belief in something is simply to encourage
mental suicide. The aim of writing this post is not to attempt to
convert Christians to Islam but to point out a difference in belief
that will hopefully bring about greater understanding between the two
faiths.....As a Christian you can only benefit by knowing the mindset
of someone of a different faith...who knows you may even end up
converting one..I know that I have benefited by reading bible text to
understand where Christian mentality is coming from. I am about to
attempt to give a crash course on the central Muslim belief without
boring you with pages and pages of detail...I am going to try to
explain why I choose Islam and not Christianity as my religion. If you
wish you can reply to my post to correct me if I have miss understood
something about Christianity. Before I put my case I would like to
repeat that both Christians and Muslims believe that when you here
truth you know it and cannot find fault in it nor deny it. As a Muslim
I believe that gods people do not live in one grouping of people on the
planet...ie.....come judgment day it is not going to be all those who
called themselves Muslim, or Christian, that are going to ascend to the
heavens but it will be a very mixed composition of people that does not
take into account such things as country, color of skin, religious
label, etc. Each Individuals fate will be determined by Gods Judgment.
I think the following text sums up this belief:
"Religion is not a club you can join..It is something you will drift in
and out of throughout your life dependant on your behavior. Your fate
and guidance in this life and the next are not decided by the label you
go by. be it agnostic Christian, Jew, or Muslim, but by your actions,
the words that flow from your lips, and what you truly believe in your
heart. This is my religion, your religion, and everybody's
religion......the name of this religion and teaching is XXXXX"
Of course this viewpoint is not unique to Islam, which is why I put
XXXXX instead of Islam, I'm sure many Christians reading this can
relate to the truth when they read it, and I'm sure you would tell me
this is Christianity too.
Many Christians would be surprised at reading the Koran.......the
scripture is very much the same as the bible and tells the same stories
of the profits...sometimes with slight variation in events but mostly
the same. Muslims Claim that Mohamed was the last profit and was given
the message of God so that he can correct the human Corruption of the
original message, much the same as Christians believe Jesus was given
the message of God to correct the Jews corruption of Scripture
etc.........The question begs to be asked What was this message that
god wants us to understand?....you can only look at the scripture of
the Jews, Christians, and Muslims to decide....what were the profits
teaching what is the common theme through the different versions of
mono religion?
Here is the Muslim Version and the crash course in Koran!
Muslims believe that gods message was that humans should not make
partners with god. And that there is only one god and all praise
belongs to Him. As Christians I am sure this is not a new concept to
you either and that you have read this many times in the bible. But
what exactly is meant by "do not make partners with God"?. Muslims
believe that by making "intercession" between a human and god is
the one thing that defines being guided or unguided. In other words by
assigning authority/power to anything other than god is in direct
contradiction of gods will and message. When humans assign symbols,
statues, create hierarchies in society with saints and kings, and
create semi gods like the golden calf the Jews created when Moses went
up the mountain we are at the same time creating division among people
and causing people to see others as different due to the limitations of
our senses. If you take away Christian crucifixes, saints (holy men),
statues of Jesus, (holy buildings), semi gods and all forms of idols
what differences are remaining between mankind ???.......NONE!...How
many wars have been fought and how many lives have been lost because of
power being assigned to the things of this life? People kill to protect
(so called) holy buildings or their other objects of worship. Even the
instincts of atheists will say that this is what turns them away from
religion. Muslims believe that in order to find guidance to the truth
you must first give up all forms of "shirk" (partner worship) and
connect with gods guidance directly without any intercession. Gods
message was the concept of unity and that this can only be achieved by
giving up "shirk". It is the defining line between devotion to God
and those who have gone astray. To become a Muslim Muslims must say in
the company of other Muslim witnesses, "There is no God but
God".......which explains the above teaching. Muslims believe that
Jesus was a Prophet of God and that he taught the above message of
unity to mankind. Muslims believe that Jesus was not the son of god but
was just an ordinary man like the rest of us who had weaknesses as we
all do. He was given Gods revelation so that mankind was given gods
message of unity and a warning for those who go against this way.
Muslims believe that when a Christian says "Jesus the son of God"
or "Jesus is God" this is assigning special power to an object of
this life (shirk/ Making Partners with God). Praying to a profit is
considered shirk too since it is a deviation of the true goal in life
which is to worship God only. Jesus was indeed one of the righteous and
a Profit of God but he was not "a son of God". Muslims believe that
Mohamed was the last profit of God sent to conclude the message of
unity that the prophets before him taught but he was rejected by many
without the chance of explaining that he was not teaching anything new
but simply warning those who had corrupted unity with idol worship. As
a Muslim I see a lot of idol worship in Christianity...i.e.
superstition in crosses, and all worship being channeled in the
direction
of Jesus. This to a Muslim is a direct contradiction to Gods message
since God expects his followers to set the example of unity and all
power and Prayer belongs to God alone.
Ask yourself this question....If I was a Christian preaching this
truth, would you not recognize it as the truth?............
And So you have understood the fundamental message of Islam and the
Koran
UNFORTUNATELY I WILL BE UNABLE TO REPLY TO ANY REPLYS TO THIS POST
SINCE I MASS POST IT TO MULTIPLE NEWSGROUPS AS A MEANS OF BRINGING
ABOUT A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF ISLAM
PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS ARTICLE FAR AND WIDE
Kind Regards....A
Siegfreed
alpha
intelligence
reqluq
news:1104709335.5...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> The Fundamental difference Between a Christian and a Muslim
>
> After reading many postings on Christian newsgroups and Muslim
> newsgroups I have noticed there are many posts which are aimed at
> converting people from one faith to their own faith but very little
> effort being made to understand the differences between the
> Monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Above all
> there is a mass of postings made by Christians attempting to teach
> Muslims the message of Jesus and Christianity. I myself am a Muslim
> (Islam) and find it very disturbing that so many Christians seem to
> have little to no understanding of just what it is that Muslims
> believe.
well the first thing you need to know,being a muslim and all is that
christianity is NOT a monotheistic faith
Flanstein
alpha wrote:
> The Fundamental difference Between a Christian and a Muslim
>
> SINCE I MASS POST IT TO MULTIPLE NEWSGROUPS AS A MEANS OF BRINGING
> ABOUT A GREATER UNDERSTANDING OF ISLAM
> PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS ARTICLE FAR AND WIDE
Then why post except to proseltyse for your "religion". In fact, I
have found, that islam is a cruel, heartless, violent, belief system
that is a threat to civilization.
"Only one ambition is worthy of Islam, to save the world from the curse
of democracy: to teach men that they cannot rule themselves on the
basis of man-made laws. Mankind has strayed from the path of God, we
must return to that path or face certain annihilation." -- Sheikh
Muhammad bin Ibrahim al-Jubair
Find out the truth about the abomination known as islam in The
Flanstein:
Alan Cossey
"reqluq" <scredcrop...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10tjg9b...@corp.supernews.com...
> "alpha" <newsgrou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1104709335.5...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>> The Fundamental difference Between a Christian and a Muslim
>>
>> After reading many postings on Christian newsgroups and Muslim
>> newsgroups I have noticed there are many posts which are aimed at
>> converting people from one faith to their own faith but very little
>> effort being made to understand the differences between the
>> Monotheistic faiths of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Above all
>> there is a mass of postings made by Christians attempting to teach
>> Muslims the message of Jesus and Christianity. I myself am a Muslim
>> (Islam) and find it very disturbing that so many Christians seem to
>> have little to no understanding of just what it is that Muslims
>> believe.
>
> well the first thing you need to know,being a muslim and all is that
> christianity is NOT a monotheistic faith
<megasnip>
Um. I know people can discuss forever about whether a religion is a religion
of peace and love and stuff like that, but it is pretty clear whether a
religion is monotheistic or not. Christianity is monotheistic. It believes
in one God. See the following, for example:
Bible
Galations 3.20 (Paul speaking)
Mark 12.29 (Jesus quoting Deuteronomy 6.4)
Christianity is as monotheistic as Islam or Judaism.
I think you may have misunderstood a very important part of the Christian
faith.
Alan Cossey
alpha
alpha
christians are assigning and dividing Gods power with other "new and
human inveted concepts such as Jesus is God" and therefore creating
division among people. When a soul puts thier worship through anything
it is making partners with God. If humans were to abandon all secondary
worship and give all faith to God alone without intercession there will
be no symbols, statues, semi Gods, Worshipping prophets or men above
the status of man, which is the only thing that divides mankind....take
away these human concepts and thier is nothing but faith in God and
unity left....this was the moral of the storey about Ibrahim, Moses
etc....god was testing to see if they wuold put thier faith 100% in him
or something of thier own chosing. Intercession/Partner worship is the
fine line between true faith and And Going Astray. This is what all the
prophets tried to teach the people but some will not see and use
reason. Have you ever seen a picture of Mohamed?........Probably
not......since they can only be seen among those who follow shia
islam...i sect ofshoot who missed the point completely and went astray.
You will not find pictures of Mohamed easily since true muslims do not
worship anything but God...go into any mosque and see if you can find
an idol of any kind.
Alan Cossey
> agreed!
>
Hi Alpha,
With my Outlook Express set to hiding read items, your plain "agreed" looked
like you were agreeing with my post. You might find including a bit of the
previous post would avoid confusing people like me!
Alan Cossey
Alan Cossey
"alpha" <newsgrou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104835192.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Alpha,
To repeat my sample quotations,
Galations 3.20 (Paul speaking)
Mark 12.29 (Jesus quoting Deuteronomy 6.4)
If we are going to discuss this, please don't misquote what Christians
believe. We believe in one God, not three. The part I think you
misunderstand is that we believe, coz it sums up what the bible says, is
that God is three persons. You may think that the bible is wrong or we are
misquoting it. That is your perogative, but please don't say we believe in
more than one God. We don't and that won't change however often says we do
otherwise.
The Jewish followers of Jesus did not rush to believe that Jesus was God.
They understood that there was one God, much like you do. It was only after
spending time living with Jesus, hearing what he taught and seeing what he
did that they came to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed God. The word
"Trinity" and the creeds, particularly the Anathasian Creed, that were
formulated later are a (good) summary of what the bible, particularly the
New Testament, said about who God is. Have a look at
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=223 and
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html for example,
More biblical passages:
a.. John 1.1 & 2 say, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with
God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning", i.e. he was
already there when God started creating things.
b.. John 1.18 explains this further, "No-one has ever seen God, but God
the only [Son], who is at the Father's side, has made him known."
c.. John 20.28 Thomas, who had real doubts up to that point, was driven to
the response "My Lord and my God" when he saw Jesus after his death and
resurrection. If Jesus was not his Lord and his God, his appropriate
response under Jewish law would have been to have got Thomas stoned to
death. Instead, he accepted his worship and chided him for being slow on the
uptake.
d.. John 5.23 Jesus says that he is worthy of the same honour as the
Father.
e.. In John 10, Jesus spoke of him and the Father being one. The Jews knew
what this meant and went to stone him for blasphemy (John 10.30-33). Jesus
didn't say, "Hang on chaps! You misunderstand me. I'm not God" when they
said to him, "...you, a mere man, claim to be God." Why not? If someone was
about to stone me because they thought I was claiming to be God, I would
certainly have pointed out the misunderstanding! Wouldn't you?
f.. Similarly John 8.58 where Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am." See
the rest of that chapter to get the context. The importance of this saying
of Jesus is that "I am" is the meaning of the name of God, i.e. Yahweh (or
YHWH without the vowels). Here again, the Jews fully understood what Jesus
was saying. Jesus did not just say, "Before Abraham, I was" (though that
would have wound them up any way claiming to exist a couple of thousand
years beforehand), but instead he used God's name for himself.
g.. John spoke of Jesus as being YHWH. See John 12.41 where he says,
"Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him" referring
to a quotation from Isaiah 6.1-10 where Isaiah said he saw YHWH.
h.. Matthew (3.3) speaks of John the Baptist preparing the way for Jesus,
saying, "
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
`Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.' "
This is a quote from Isaiah 40.3, i.e.
"A voice of one calling:
'In the desert prepare
the way for the LORD;
make straight in the wilderness
a highway for our God.'"
a.. Jesus is the First and the Last. See Isaiah 44.6 and Revelation 1.17,
18.
"This is what the LORD says--
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God."
(John speaking) "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he
placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and
the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever
and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."
a.. Have a look at Philippians 2 which is describing Jesus.
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something
to be grasped (hung onto), but made himself nothing, taking the very
nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in
appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--
even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and
gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every
knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every
tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
a.. Again John speaks of Jesus as the true God.
"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding,
so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in
his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. " 1 John 5.20.
a.. John 5.18 says that the Jews knew who Jesus was claiming to be.
"For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he
breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making
himself equal with God."
a.. God is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords according Paul in 1 Timothy
6.15
"God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, "
Hello, that's Jesus, isn't it, in Revelation 19.13-16?
"He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
... On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS. "
a.. 1 Samuel 2.2 from the Old Testament tells us that there is no-one holy
like the LORD.
"There is no one holy like the LORD;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God."
Peter, speaking on the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came upon the
early believers and speaking about Jesus, said:
"You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be
released to you. 1You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the
dead. We are witnesses of this. "
a.. Isaiah 9.6 tells us that the Messiah will be called, "Mighty God".
Christians and Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah, so the logical
conclusion is.....
b.. etc, etc.
alpha
people?.....if you want to learn something about islam its best to ask
a muslim than get all your info from someone who got all there info
from someone of a different religion......the blind lead the blind
Flanstein
2001...
Find out the truth about the abomination known as islam in The
Flanstein:
http://flanstein.blogspot.com/
Muslims...why we hate you...
Airplanes full of humans are hijacked and crashed into skyscrapers full
of humans, hotels are bombed, 12 year old children's birthday parties
are blown up, bus loads of children are massacred. Who are the
culprits? Muslims.
Your co-religionists executed thousands during the miss world riot
while asking some of the victims to recite passages out of the koran.
If they could not comply, they were butchered on the spot. The
targeting, torture and massacre of schoolchildren in Russia by your
fellow Muslims was perhaps the most barbarous act in 2004.
Then of course there is the massacre in NY, the hundreds of Australians
BBQ'd in Bali and hundreds more executed in Madrid. Let's not forget
all the innocent people your friends beheaded on video (shouting alla
akbar) while they danced around in joy. You must be so proud!
All the while you kill more dogs, beat more women, destroy more ancient
artifacts and incinerate more Kenyan dancers.
Then call yourselves the Religion of Peace™ and blame it all on the
Jews...
alpha
standards as you use, it would mean that all the Middle east would
reserve the right to massacre all people in America because we Judge
you all by the standards of a group of Christians who call themselves
the KLU KLUX KLAN and go round burning black people at the stake alive
and say its Gods work.
And you have the cheek to suggest Muslims are
primative....Joke!......Take a look at your own collective punishment
mentality which most people got past some time around the last ice
age......Go crall back in your hole caveman.....the world would
certainly be a very dangerous place with people like yourself in
charge.....
Ever heard of the concept of Judging people as individuals?....Ever
heardof the concept of Judging a religion for its text rather than by
people who claim to follow it?. If you want information about Law you
go speak to a Layer who is an expert in the subject.....If you are a
Idiot you go speak with people who hate Lawers and know nothing about
Law and will teach you there own hatred and Ignorance.
I hope one day your intelligence level peeks above the average 5 year
old and that you actually learn to grow up a little.
Andy
reqluq
message news:crdm72$fa6$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "reqluq" <scredcrop...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:10tjg9b...@corp.supernews.com...
>> "alpha" <newsgrou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1104709335.5...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> The Fundamental difference Between a Christian and a Muslim
>>
>> christianity is NOT a monotheistic faith
>
> <megasnip>
>
> Um. I know people can discuss forever about whether a religion is a
> religion of peace and love and stuff like that, but it is pretty clear
> whether a religion is monotheistic or not. Christianity is monotheistic.
> It believes in one God. See the following, for example:
>
> Bible
> Galations 3.20 (Paul speaking)
> Mark 12.29 (Jesus quoting Deuteronomy 6.4)
>
> Christianity is as monotheistic as Islam or Judaism.
>
> I think you may have misunderstood a very important part of the Christian
> faith.
>
> Alan Cossey
One God got sent by the other to earth while the one who sent him stayed in
heaven.one God watched over him(God the holy ghost) ...one god you can
blaspheme against and won't be forgiven,the other two you can blaspheme
against and you can be forgiven.hmm sounds like more than one to me..
one will sit on the right hand of the other......hmmm,they can communicate
amongst each other..hmm sounds like more than one to me
reqluq
>
>
> "alpha" <newsgrou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1104835192.7...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> They understood that there was one God, much like you do. It was only
> after spending time living with Jesus, hearing what he taught and seeing
> what he did that they came to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed God.
How so?what did he do different than any other prohpet that makes you think
that they beleived he was god?where do you get that from?they beleived
nothing other than he was a teacher sent by god..
Alan Cossey
What about all the quotes I put in my post and which you left in your reply?
Didn't it appear on your newreader? Have I missed something? John and
Matthew were two of the disciples who went round with Jesus for about 3
years. What do you think of what they said?
Alan Cossey
"reqluq" <scredcrop...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10tmrrq...@corp.supernews.com...
Salahuddin
Actually John and Matthew, the disciples, did not go around with Esa (Jesus)
for 3 years. They came well after him and never met him. John felt matthews
gospel was not good enough or accurate enough, thats why he wrote his own
version.
Salahuddin
reqluq
> What about all the quotes I put in my post and which you left in your
> reply? Didn't it appear on your newreader? Have I missed something? John
> and Matthew were two of the disciples who went round with Jesus for about
> 3 years. What do you think of what they said?
>
> Alan Cossey
Hi alan ,what about these quotes?:and what do you think of what these
say?hmm?
http://bismikaallahuma.org/Jesus/deny.htm
Introduction
That the Christianity of today rests solely on the the doctrine of Jesus
Christ, that he was God in human form and died on the cross as a suffering
deity[1] need no longer be explained. However, there is hardly a single
statement where Jesus(P) had explicitly stated that he is God, although
Christians do bring out various passages in order to force this
interpretation.[2] But did Jesus(P) really make statements of his (alleged)
deity regarding his status, the words, the will and the power he used? We
urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions
are not drawn out of context.
WORDS
John 7:16 "Jesus answered them and said, 'My doctrine is not mine, but His
who sent me.' "
John 14:24 "He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word
which you hear is not mine but The Father's who sent me."
John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on my own authority; but the Father who
sent me gave me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."
WILL
John 4:34 "Jesus said to them, 'My food is to do the will of Him who sent
me, and to accomplish His work.' "
John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the
will of Him who sent me."
Luke 22:42 "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from me;
nevertheless not my will, but Yours, be done."
Matthew 20:23 "...But sitting at my right hand or my left is not mine to
give. That is for those to whom it has been reserved by my Father."
POWER
John 5:19 "Verily, verily I say unto you, the Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do..."
John 5:30 "I can of myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek my own will but the will of the Father
who sent me."
John 8:42 "Jesus said to them, 'If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He
sent me.' "
John 15:2 "My Father takes away every branch in me that bears not fruit; he
purges it; that it may bring forth more fruit." Here, we see Jesus'
acknowledgement that he is an impefect sinner just like the rest of us; he
too must be purged and purified.
John 8:31 "You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth
that I heard from God” This verse is one of the most explicit statements of
Jesus denying divinity for it clearly defines Jesus' position that he is
subject to God and not God Himself. One only has to ask a simple question:
Does God hears the truth from Himself?
KNOWLEDGE
Mark 13:32 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in
heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."
Matthew 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of
heaven, but My Father only."
John 7:16 So Jesus answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but His who sent
me."
We quickly notice that according to the Biblical Jesus, God is omniscient,
but Jesus is not. God has a superior intellect to Jesus; in other words, God
knows something that Jesus does not know. Another clear proof that they are
not equal.
MOSAIC LAW
The next few quotes from the Bible show us that Jesus(P) was a devout and
learned Jew, a rabbi:
"Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit to Galilee, and his reputation
spread throughout the region. He was teaching in their synagogues, and all
were loud in his praise. He came to Nazareth where he had been reared, and
entering the synagogue on the sabbath as he was in the habit of doing, he
stood up to do the reading." (Luke 4:14-16)
The worship of God was always focal in his life, even as a child. The second
chapter of Luke tells us a very touching story of Jesus(P) as a precociously
wise child of twelve, sitting for days among the scholars. His family had
accidentally left him in Jerusalem after their annual visit for the
Passover. Nearly frantic, they searched for him:
"On the third day they came upon him in the temple sitting in the midst of
the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. All who heard him
were amazed at his intelligence and his answers. When his parents saw him
they were astonished, and his mother said to him: "Son, why have you done
this to us? You see that your father and I have been searching for you in
sorrow." He said to them: "Why did you search for me? Did you not know I had
to be in my Father's house?" (Luke 2:46-49)
As he grew, "Jesus...progressed steadily in wisdom and age and grace before
God and men" (Luke 2:52). After he had matured, his opinion was sought,
though perhaps not always respectfully, by traditional Jews. An example of
this is John's narration of the adulterous woman brought to Jesus for
judgment.
Though they addressed him as "Teacher," they tried to trap him into saying
something which they could use against him. As he straightened up from where
he had been writing on the ground, he issued his famous judgement: "Let him
without sin cast the first stone." Though they had come to trap him, the
scribes and Pharisees could not argue and drifted away, leaving the woman
without harming her. Even those who were hostile to his teachings respected
him.
VISIBILITY
While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this
could not be done with God when he said:
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
John 5:37 "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape."
John 4:24 "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in
spirit and in truth."
STATUS
Jesus' statements throughout the Bible suggest that any idea of exalting him
to divinity was unthinkable. Perhaps the clearest indication we have that
Jesus(P) and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, come
again from the mouth of Jesus(P) himself who said these following words:
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the
kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven."
Jesus(P) would not even accept the praise of a man who called him good:
Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call me good? No one is good
but God alone.' "
If Jesus(P) would not even allow himself to be called good, he certainly
would not claim divine qualities.
Mark 12:29 Jesus(P) said "Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." The
words "our God" indicate that Jesus(P) had a higher God over him, a stronger
God than him. Jesus(P) didn't say "Your God". He said "our God", which
includes Jesus(P) as the creation of God.
Other similar quotes:
Luke 22:42 "...not my will but Thine be done"
John 5:30 "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has
sent me."
John 7:16 "Jesus said: 'My doctrine is not my own; it comes from Him who
sent me.'"
John 7:28-29 "...I have not come of myself. I was sent by One who has the
right to send, and Him you do not know. I know Him because it is from Him I
come; He sent me."
John 8:50 "And I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks and
judges."
John 10:29 "My Father is greater than all."
John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I."
John 8:42 "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but
He sent me."
Matthew 10:40; Mark 9:37; Luke 9:48; John 13:20 "Whoever welcomes me
welcomes, not me, but Him who sent me."
John 20:17 "...Go to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father
and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
If the above still would not convince you that Jesus is subject to the
Father, perhaps the next words of Jesus would definately prove that the One
who sends is greater than the one who was sent:
"Jesus said; 'Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his
master; neither one who is sent greater than the One who sent him.' " (John
13:16)
That Jesus(P) would admit that he did not come into the world on his own
initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another
being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in
deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is
not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.
So who is Jesus(P) then? A man who told the truth which he heard from God.
In other words, he was a messenger of God. When a clear statement like this
is issued from the lips of Jesus, why wrangle with the passages that are not
so clear, and try to twist them to mean the opposite of what Jesus(P) has
been saying in other clear verses all along?
Anyone who wishes to convince themselves that Jesus(P) is God should look
for clear evidence in the Bible to show that Jesus(P) is God. But the clear
evidence is to the contrary. The Bible teaches again and again that Jesus(P)
is not God, but a Servant of God (e.g. Matthew 12:18). In the very next
chapter of John 9:35, Jesus declares that he is the Son of Man. And anyone
who knows the Bible as the Israelites to whom Jesus spoke will know that a
son of man cannot be God. The Bible declares that God is neither a man nor a
son of man (Numbers 23:19):
"How can he be called clean that is born of a woman? Behold even the moon,
and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less
man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?" (Job 25:4-6)
There has long been a great deal of debate among Christian theologians and
scholars regarding the divinity of Jesus. This debate has intensified in
recent years, and there seems to be an increasingly open concern over the
truth of this doctrine. Some Christians had even concluded that
Jesus was (as he is presented in Acts 2:21) 'a man approved by God' for a
special role within the divine purpose, and...the later conception of him as
God incarnate, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity living a human life, is
a mythological or poetic way of expressing his significance for us.[3]
It is clear that Jesus(P) followed the Mosaic law and did not claim
divinity. According to the Bible, he was neither omniscient nor omnipotent.
Given the fact that nowhere in the Bible do we see a direct identification
of Jesus(P) as God, and that Jesus(P) strongly upheld all the commandments
and emphasized the First Commandment, we can only conclude that the doctrine
of Jesus' divinity has no foundation in the scripture nor in the life and
teachings of Jesus(P), and that this concept is an innovation in Christian
doctrine.
And only God knows best.
Alan Cossey
"Salahuddin" <salahud...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:sm1Dd.312$Mg4...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
http://www.tektonics.org/ntdocdef/gospdefhub.html, for example, gives some
arguments for the traditional Christian understanding of the authority of
the gospels.
As Salahuddin knows I am trying to understand Islamic thinking on stuff,
including Christianity. Islam teaches that Allah revealed the Injil
(gospel), but that it got corrupted so much that we don't have a reliable
account any more. Questions:
1) When did that corruption happen - before the time of Muhammed or after?
2) If it was before Muhammed's time, why does the Qu'ran imply that the
Christian and Jewish scripture were worth studying (and comparing with the
Qu'ran), e.g. in surah 2.91 where the Qu'ran claims that it corroborates the
previous scriptures? If they were corrupt, this surah would be pointless.
3) If it was before Muhammed's time, why did no Muslim before 1000AD say
this? From my searches, it seems that Muslim charges of claims of corruption
of the New Testament texts only started about 400 years after Muhammed?
4) If it was before Muhhamed's time, why didn't Muhammed claim the
Christians' texts were corrupted? It seems to me that Muhammed claimed that
Christians misunderstood those texts, but not that they had got the wrong
ones in the first place?
Last point. If John felt Matthew's gospel was not good enough or accurate
enough and that is why he wrote his own, how does that fit in with the
Qu'ran and the hadiths? Do we have the hadiths because the Qu'ran is not
good enough, not accurate enough, not complete enough or comprehensible
enough? This is not meant to be offensive, but is a question many people
will ask themselves.
Alan
Alan Cossey
one God. Not three gods. Really, not three gods. You may think it is wrong
or poorly explained, but Christians do not believe in three gods. One God.
Period.
Alan
Richard Dell
| Hi Salahuddin and friends,
Sally is not your friend.
| As Salahuddin knows I am trying to understand Islamic thinking on stuff,
| including Christianity. Islam teaches that Allah revealed the Injil
| (gospel), but that it got corrupted so much that we don't have a reliable
| account any more.
Sally is a Jihadi. He will contradict much of what you think you have learned
from "moderates". If you were to meet him, he would not be interested in
theology or metaphysics. He would offer you the choice between converting to
Islam and having your throat cut.
Wise up, Alan. There are bad people out there, and some nearer home.
<http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=FL5I2H2KQLOERQFIQMGCM5OAVCBQUJVC?xml=/news/2003/05/21/nabu21.xml>
alpha
Andy
> sorry....you level of intellect is not worthy of a reply...
>
reqluq
"Alan Cossey" <alanX...@cossey58.freeserve.co.uk.XYXYZYZY> wrote in
>
> "reqluq" <scredcrop...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:10tmrn2...@corp.supernews.com...
>> "Alan Cossey" <alanX...@cossey58.freeserve.co.uk.XYXYZYZY> wrote in
>> message news:crdm72$fa6$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>>
>>> "reqluq" <scredcrop...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:10tjg9b...@corp.supernews.com...
>>>> "alpha" <newsgrou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:1104709335.5...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> The Fundamental difference Between a Christian and a Muslim
>>>>
>>>> well the first thing you need to know,being a muslim and all is that
>>>> christianity is NOT a monotheistic faith
reqluq:
>> One God got sent by the other to earth while the one who sent him stayed
>> in heaven.one God watched over him(God the holy ghost) ...one god you can
>> blaspheme against and won't be forgiven,the other two you can blaspheme
>> against and you can be forgiven.hmm sounds like more than one to me..
>> one will sit on the right hand of the other......hmmm,they can
>> communicate amongst each other..hmm sounds like more than one to me
alan :
> Nope. God is one God. Three persons (the best English word we can use),
> but one God. Not three gods. Really, not three gods. You may think it is
> wrong or poorly explained, but Christians do not believe in three gods.
> One God. Period.
reqluq queation and answer session..
Q.Is the father god?
christian:.yes
q.is the holy ghost god?
christian: yes
q.is the son god
christian:yes
q.are they one in the same god?
christian:yes
q.if I blaspheme god the father will I at the same time be blaspheming god
the holy ghost and god the son?
christian:
Alan Cossey
"Richard Dell" <rfd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41dd4a89$0$112$65c6...@mercury.nildram.net...
I've not met Salahuddin face to face, but he and I have been holding an
e-mail discussion offline from this group with me learning more about Islam
and Salahuddin learning more about Christianity. We have found some common
ground, though he is still a Muslim and I am still a Christian. I don't
think I have the right to speak for him one way or the other as we are all
responsible for what we say and do. However, during those e-mail discussions
I have found him polite and eager to help.
Alan Cossey
Salahuddin
Thank you for your reply to Dick's comments.
Dick, to be honest, whether Alan, whom I consider a very good person,
converts to Islam or not, does not make much difference to me. It will not
affect me in this life or in the afterlife. He wants to learn about Islam,
so I offer my opinions and understanding about Islam, and I would like to
learn about Christianity, so I turn to Alan, who shares his knowledge with
me. To put one thing across, I have never spoken to a Christian before who I
respect as much as Alan. Never has there been a Christian that I believe I
have so much in common with before I spoke to Alan.
Also Dick, one who fights for Islam is not called a Jihadi but is called a
Mujahid. I am neither. I see injustice and I see people slandering my
beliefs, so I speak out. While you sit behind your computer 'expressing'
yourself, it wouldnt be right if I called you a soldier, because you're not
one, same goes for me.
On a more serious note, I understand there was once a gospel of mary. Do you
know about this?
Salahuddin
reqluq
wow no answer?
Alan Cossey
"Salahuddin" <salah...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%zCDd.808$6L6...@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
There is a bit about the "Gospel of Mary" at
http://www.gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm. It seems there only about half
of it survives and the content of the remainin bit is a bit bland. One bit
that doesn't ring true for Christians - nor, I would think for Muslims, is
chapter 4 verse 26 where Jesus is quoted as saying, "There is no sin."
Alan