"Theatre of God"
Mark Goodge
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
Thoughts, anyone?
Mark
--
http://www.OrangeHedgehog.com - RSS feeds and Google Adsense tools
"Shake off your golden shackles, children of time no more"
Gareth McCaughan
> Interesting article on the BBC website:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
>
> Thoughts, anyone?
The article's a bit light on details, but there were a number
of things about "Hillsong" that make me a bit uncomfortable
if the article isn't misleading.
| "Hillsong," he says, "is fundamentally about creating a new
| impression of Christianity for a generation who have turned
| away from God."
For an evangelistic or interfaith event, let's by all means
focus on a "new impression of Christianity" if wrong ideas
have got out there or if Christianity itself is changing in
some way that matters. But it sounds as if this is primarily
a gathering of people who are already Christians; surely
that shouldn't be *their* focus? I mean, if the point of
"church" becomes being-attractive-to-newcomers then the whole
thing starts to look like (as some people claim it actually is)
a pyramic-selling scheme where the aim is to recruit people to
recruit other people to recruit other people to ... .
It seems to me that the point of a regular gathering-of-Christians
(I'm avoiding terms like "church service" because I suspect
the Hillsong folks might repudiate them) should be to *practise*
Christianity, not to *give impressions* of it.
I also tend to be skeptical about "services" that are dominated
by the music, whether it's "contemporary" music as at Hillsong
or more traditional as at an Oxbridge college evensong. Getting
together with others for a group singalong is enjoyable, but it's
hardly the heart of what Christianity is about. Or close to it.
| especially as they only do their own songs.
Why?!
Oh, and that phrase again:
| a new impression of Christianity
New? This is hardly the world's first attempt at a Christian
church that focuses on big crowds, lots of music and a "buzz".
I suppose he means "new to the people involved", but the BBC
article's author seems to think this is some sort of radically
new departure, which it doesn't actually appear to be.
Now, with all that negative stuff said, if this is effective
in equipping people for a not-just-Sundays Christian life
outside then it's no bad thing; I'd say the same of any other
church or kinda-sorta-church-like-thing. Whether it actually is
is one of those things it's impossible to tell from the article.
--
Gareth McCaughan
.sig under construc
John M Ward
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
> Thoughts, anyone?
Oh yes, very good news! Hillsong is an amazing church, as members
of my church have attested upon returning from Australia. We can
get a flavour of it on the God TV channel, but my impression is that
there's nothing quite like "being there". Now it is also in this
country in a big way, that is great news indeed, even if it has
taken several years to reach this stage here. As the article says,
it appeals mainly to the younger folk, but not exclusively by any
means, as their recorded shows plainly reveal.
The amazing Darlene Zschech (if that's the right spelling!) is based
at Hillsong's Australian home church, and I'm sure many here have
heard her music, especially "My Jesus, My Saviour". We sing this
quite frequently at my church, which (ahem!) also happens to have
two drum kits...
Overall, although it's not quite my kind of place, I do appreciate
its presence very much, and was most impressed at the impact it has
had on people I know well who have been to Hillsong in Australia.
This publicity via the BBC, no less, will hopefully (I think almost
certainly!) add further to its success here, which would be a great
result, especially for the younger generations.
--
.... Love and wishes for God's Blessings to you, from ...
John M Ward -- God loves you and so do I! <><
Adherent and webmaster of the Salvation Army's Chatham Corps
See the Corps' website at: www.chathamsalvationarmy.org.uk/
Heather Cawte
<Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote:
>Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> Interesting article on the BBC website:
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
>>
>> Thoughts, anyone?
>
>The article's a bit light on details, but there were a number
>of things about "Hillsong" that make me a bit uncomfortable
>if the article isn't misleading.
<snip>
OK, now I'm confused. Didn't 'Songs of praise' come from Hillsong UK,
some time last year?
And the BBC are only just getting round to writing about it??
Heather
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>> Interesting article on the BBC website:
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
>>
>> Thoughts, anyone?
>
>The article's a bit light on details, but there were a number
>of things about "Hillsong" that make me a bit uncomfortable
>if the article isn't misleading.
Well, it is a little misleading, and you have to make some allowances
for journalistic licence.
> | "Hillsong," he says, "is fundamentally about creating a new
> | impression of Christianity for a generation who have turned
> | away from God."
>
>For an evangelistic or interfaith event, let's by all means
>focus on a "new impression of Christianity" if wrong ideas
>have got out there or if Christianity itself is changing in
>some way that matters. But it sounds as if this is primarily
>a gathering of people who are already Christians; surely
>that shouldn't be *their* focus? I mean, if the point of
>"church" becomes being-attractive-to-newcomers then the whole
>thing starts to look like (as some people claim it actually is)
>a pyramic-selling scheme where the aim is to recruit people to
>recruit other people to recruit other people to ... .
I think you're being a little misled by the jargon :-) For
"impression", it might be better to read "model" or "expression".
> | especially as they only do their own songs.
>
>Why?!
Well, songs from the Hillsong group are among the best-known in
evangelical Christianity. I bet that you know some of them, as well.
And it isn't actually true that they *only* do their own songs; but
the reporter probably wasn't sufficiently familiar with this overall
sector of Christianity to distinguish between them.
>Oh, and that phrase again:
>
> | a new impression of Christianity
>
>New? This is hardly the world's first attempt at a Christian
>church that focuses on big crowds, lots of music and a "buzz".
>I suppose he means "new to the people involved", but the BBC
>article's author seems to think this is some sort of radically
>new departure, which it doesn't actually appear to be.
It isn't, particularly. Hillsong is, in many respects, a fairly
typical example of a "third wave" charismatic church. But meeting in a
west-end theatre makes a nice hook for an article.
Mark
--
http://www.MotorwayServices.info - read and share comments and opinons
"Nothing takes the past away like the future"
Jewels
news:hnbau1lnsf6qvb4r7...@news.markshouse.net...
> Interesting article on the BBC website:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
>
> Thoughts, anyone?
>
> Mark
> --
sermon which is about commitment in one's spiritual life".
I would hope that there is as much emphasis on biblical preaching as there
is worship. You could have the most fantastic worship times and hey I love
to worship God but it is the word that gives a person their foundations, it
is the word that carries us through the hard times and gives us direction
when everything else seems dry and hard including the worship imho.
The article also talked about Hillsongs other activities: "to the mid-week
teaching and social events in local homes, cafes and pubs". Again, I think
small group fellowship and discipling is important as well as outreach and
evangelism, I hope these things go on. It's obviously not easy to get a
clear view just from an article but everything I have heard about Hillsong
focusses on the great worship and part of me just thinks: I hope there is a
proper balance for the people who attend.
Jewelsx
Steve Hague
news:i7mau1haqr108rb81...@4ax.com...
You have to bear in mind that the reporter is probably completely unaware of
charismatic style churches other than Hillsong, and it was probably a light
day for news. There isn't anything new about them, but from the videos I've
seen of their meetings there isn't anything which I would call negative
either. May they continue to grow and thrive.
Steve Hague
Gareth McCaughan
[someone at "Hillsong":]
>> | "Hillsong," he says, "is fundamentally about creating a new
>> | impression of Christianity for a generation who have turned
>> | away from God."
[Mark, in response to my whingeing:]
> I think you're being a little misled by the jargon :-) For
> "impression", it might be better to read "model" or "expression".
Hmm, really? That's a use of "impression" I haven't encountered
before, indeed.
>> | especially as they only do their own songs.
>>
>> Why?!
>
> Well, songs from the Hillsong group are among the best-known in
> evangelical Christianity. I bet that you know some of them, as well.
Sure. For all I know they may be consistently excellent,
but that's no reason to sing nothing else. What would you
think of a Methodist church that sang only Wesley hymns?
> And it isn't actually true that they *only* do their own songs; but
> the reporter probably wasn't sufficiently familiar with this overall
> sector of Christianity to distinguish between them.
Ah, that's possible. I naively assumed that if the reporter
wrote something so specific then s/he must have talked to
someone and been told "We only sing our own songs here".
Silly me.
Ian
> Interesting article on the BBC website:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
>
> Thoughts, anyone?
It's not entirely consistent, is it?
"Back at the service, the only interruption to the music is for the
offering. It is introduced with a 10-minute pep-talk from the casually
dressed vicar on the importance of giving generously."
followed by
"After the congregation has dispensed with its financial duties, the
band quit the stage for the Rev Gary's sermon which is about commitment
in one's spiritual life."
An hour of christian rock interrupted by a demand for ten percent of
your income sounds pretty ghastly to me, but if it feels like a
spiritual experience to some people, why not?
Ian
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>Mark Goodge wrote:
>>
>> Well, songs from the Hillsong group are among the best-known in
>> evangelical Christianity. I bet that you know some of them, as well.
>
>Sure. For all I know they may be consistently excellent,
>but that's no reason to sing nothing else. What would you
>think of a Methodist church that sang only Wesley hymns?
It would be unusual, but it wouldn't be entirely implausible that a
particular service might feature solely Wesley's hymns. And different
groups have their own repertoires; it's more plausible that "only
their own" means "only the ones in their official songbook", which
could be true of many denominations.
>> And it isn't actually true that they *only* do their own songs; but
>> the reporter probably wasn't sufficiently familiar with this overall
>> sector of Christianity to distinguish between them.
>
>Ah, that's possible. I naively assumed that if the reporter
>wrote something so specific then s/he must have talked to
>someone and been told "We only sing our own songs here".
>Silly me.
It might also have been a misunderstanding given to the reporter by
someone he spoke to. It's quite possible that there are members of the
Hillsongs congregation who think that all they songs they sing are
their own, because they're all different to what was sung in the CofE
church they grew up in.
Mark
--
http://www.FridayFun.net - jokes, lyrics and ringtones
"Let's see colours that have never been seen"
Gareth McCaughan
>>> Well, songs from the Hillsong group are among the best-known in
>>> evangelical Christianity. I bet that you know some of them, as well.
>>
>> Sure. For all I know they may be consistently excellent,
>> but that's no reason to sing nothing else. What would you
>> think of a Methodist church that sang only Wesley hymns?
>
> It would be unusual, but it wouldn't be entirely implausible that a
> particular service might feature solely Wesley's hymns. And different
> groups have their own repertoires; it's more plausible that "only
> their own" means "only the ones in their official songbook", which
> could be true of many denominations.
Sure, it wouldn't be surprising if *in one particular service*
everything was from the same source. And sure, using a single
songbook is entirely reasonable. Neither of those is what the
article said. I do understand that the article was probably
wrong, though, so the whole thing is moot :-).
>> Ah, that's possible. I naively assumed that if the reporter
>> wrote something so specific then s/he must have talked to
>> someone and been told "We only sing our own songs here".
>> Silly me.
>
> It might also have been a misunderstanding given to the reporter by
> someone he spoke to. It's quite possible that there are members of the
> Hillsongs congregation who think that all they songs they sing are
> their own, because they're all different to what was sung in the CofE
> church they grew up in.
Certainly imaginable, I suppose.
Kendall K. Down
John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
> Oh yes, very good news! Hillsong is an amazing church
No it's not. It's an amazing Christian theatre or sensory experience or
something, but church it ain't.
A friend who attended, complete with mobile phone, has given me a short clip
of part of a "service" over here in Britain (looks a bit like the Albert
Hall). The quality is what you would expect from a mobile phone hand held by
an amateur, but "amazing" is certainly a suitable adjective.
The clip starts with a "Scripture Reading": which is basically a single
verse from something like The Message read by a talking head whose image
skips from one video screen to another (with a variety of lighting colours)
during the reading. This then serves as an introduction to a dance group of
young men performing a New Zealand 'haka', over which the song "My God is an
Awesome God" gradually appears.
The clip ends with shots of the audience boogieing and pogoing.
If anyone is interested, I have uploaded it to a private area of NWTV
http://www.nwtv.co.uk/rkd/haka.3gp
3gp is a QuickTime format but you'll almost certainly need to download a new
codec. The file is 3.1 Mb.
God bless,
Kendall K. Down
--
================ ARCHAEOLOGICAL DIGGINGS ===============
| Australia's premiere archaeological magazine |
| http://www.diggingsonline.com |
========================================================
Paul Roberts
Kendall K. Down gently whispered:
> In message <4df427e...@acornusers.org>
> John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
>
>> Oh yes, very good news! Hillsong is an amazing church
>
> No it's not. It's an amazing Christian theatre or sensory experience
> or something, but church it ain't.
So what makes it "not a church"?
--
Paul R.
Remove nospam for valid email address
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <4df427e...@acornusers.org>
> John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
>
>> Oh yes, very good news! Hillsong is an amazing church
>
>No it's not. It's an amazing Christian theatre or sensory experience or
>something, but church it ain't.
In what sense is it not a church, in your opinion? What is it lacking
that a church should have?
Mark
--
http://www.GoogleFun.info - fun and games with Google!
"I'm so tired of acting tough"
Tony Bryer
> In what sense is it not a church, in your opinion? What is it
> lacking that a church should have?
One of the things that lots of these superchurches seem to lack is
engagement with the community. ISTM that one might be more inclined to
see it as the church to which I go, rather than the church of which I
am a part?
In one of his books Tim Costello, former minister of the church I go
to when in Melbourne, writes of the supermarket effect of large
churches - people drive for several miles - past many other churches
in many cases - to get what they offer, when perhaps they should be
thinking about what they can offer to a small local congregation which
cannot 'compete'.
--
Tony Bryer
John M Ward
Kendall K. Down <webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
> In message <4df427e...@acornusers.org>
> John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
> > Oh yes, very good news! Hillsong is an amazing church
> No it's not. It's an amazing Christian theatre or sensory
> experience or something, but church it ain't.
[interesting material snipped, for neatness]
Actually, it is a church, and a very useful one in the true
yradition of having different forms of worship for different types
of people. Just as Gospel is a form of church, so is Hillsong.
It is unhelpful to try to constrain forms of worhip and types of
church within one's own narrow band of preferences, as I became
aware when we had a group from a Gospel church visit my own church a
coupe, of years ago. I can see that it is an easy trap into which
one can fall; and on this occasion it was perhaps surprising to find
how inhibited ("British"?) a large number of our own congregation
were.
God is bigger and broader than any human's personal view of Him or
His church; and narrow, selective reading of Him tends to lead us
into blind alleys. It's worth being aware of that trap, so that we
don't get easily led into it.
Hillsong has achieved remarkable things that must surely have the
blessing of God the Father, and Jesus the Son. I have far greater
regard for those responses than for any (of necessity much narrower)
merely human opinions.
I welcome Hillsong to Britain, even though it isn't quite "my
scene": at least I have learned to be broader in outlook, provided
the message is the right one, which it clearly is at Hillsong, as
those who have watched the Australian broadcasts will be well aware.
Mark Goodge
and typed:
>On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 09:37:05 +0000 Mark Goodge wrote :
>> In what sense is it not a church, in your opinion? What is it
>> lacking that a church should have?
>
>One of the things that lots of these superchurches seem to lack is
>engagement with the community.
I don't think that's really the case; rather, I think that they tend
to engage with a different sector of the community to that which more
traditional churches tend to encounter.
Mark
--
http://www.FridayFun.net - jokes, lyrics and ringtones
"And so we're told this is the golden age"
Heather Cawte
wrote:
>I welcome Hillsong to Britain, even though it isn't quite "my
>scene": at least I have learned to be broader in outlook, provided
>the message is the right one, which it clearly is at Hillsong, as
>those who have watched the Australian broadcasts will be well aware.
Hear hear. I prefer my Quaker meetings for myself, but I would never
try to enforce them on those who prefer a livelier atrmosphere. In my
Father's house there are many mansions - and some of them have big
hi-fi's :)
Heather
Gareth McCaughan
> No it's not. It's an amazing Christian theatre or sensory experience or
> something, but church it ain't.
>
> A friend who attended, complete with mobile phone, has given me a short clip
> of part of a "service"
Presumably you aren't basing your assessment that it isn't a church
*only* on that short clip. So what else do you know that justifies
saying that it isn't a church?
kevin donnelly
<hea...@barwickgreen.fsnet.co.uk> writes
He loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, if that's what Hillsong is about, sounds
a bit of a turn off, for this attender at Wythenshawe Friends Meeting
where I hang out most Sundays. I usually follow that later on with
Songs of Praise, which is often splendid and very musical but
occasionally is banal and bordering on show-biz, with solo or group
wailing, fancy dress and random camera shots of self-conscious gyrating
participants, sometimes hunting for effects.
Yet even the most tedious presentation can have its moments, for
the numinous is beholden to no one. I grew up in small Baptist church
unvisited by the great and good of the denomination, but the often-read
Bible passages became memorable over time. Our hymn books at one time
were long out-dated, with many hymns never sung at all, but one edition
had brief biographies of hymn-writers, a welcome source of refreshment
in the occasional langheurs of worship. Like life itself, worship can
be full of surprises: long may it be so.
KD
--
Kevin Donnelly
Wythenshawe Prompt Organiser
http://copsewood.net/mailman/listinfo/prompt
Website www.kevdon.demon.co.uk
Tony Gillam
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 08:33:54 GMT, Kendall K. Down put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
How do you know? He may type with his feet.
--
Tony Gillam
tony....@lineone.net
http://www.bookourvilla.co.uk/spain
Sun, sand and sangria
John M Ward
Tony Gillam <tony....@NOSPAMlineone.net> wrote:
> Mark Goodge wrote:
> > On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 08:33:54 GMT, Kendall K. Down put finger to
> > keyboard and typed:
> How do you know? He may type with his feet.
Probably: whenever one of his messages appears (or twenty!) we all
know that something is a-foot ;-)
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> So what makes it "not a church"?
The "still small voice" of God.
Kendall K. Down
John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
> Actually, it is a church, and a very useful one in the true
> yradition of having different forms of worship for different types
> of people. Just as Gospel is a form of church, so is Hillsong.
You assume, of course, that Gospel is indeed a form of church.
> It is unhelpful to try to constrain forms of worhip and types of
> church within one's own narrow band of preferences
That is very true, but if those who come to Christ in Gospel or Hillsong are
then unable to settle down to worship somewhere where there is no great
emotional "high" mediated by the exciting music and dramatic presentations,
then I would say that whatever good Hillsong or Gospel has accomplished is
just froth and bubbles, no substance.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> In what sense is it not a church, in your opinion? What is it lacking
> that a church should have?
I don't know what it *doesn't* have that a church should have, but I can
tell you what it *does* have that a church shouldn't: half a dozen video
screens too many, a complex lighting system, far too many performers, etc.
Please note that I am not claiming that the Hillsong experience is the first
step on the road to hell or anything like that: I keep playing the haka clip
because I think it is so clever - I just wish the quality was better. I
maintain, however, that it is theatre, not church and not worship.
I strongly suspect that there is a degree of manipulation going on, similar
to what DJs do in a club and you already know that I disapprove of that.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> I don't think that's really the case; rather, I think that they tend
> to engage with a different sector of the community to that which more
> traditional churches tend to encounter.
I recognise that the people who attend Hillsong probably wouldn't come
within a mile of my church, so in one sense I praise God for what Hillsong
is doing. On the other hand, what if what Hillsong offers is not true
worship of God but merely an emotional experience with religious trappings?
I would be vastly interested to know how many of the young people who flock
to Hillsong go on to become zealous and productive church members in less
exciting "churches" when they move away from the area. Somehow I can't
really see them settling down in your typical congregation of mainly
pensioners or going out to Africa to become life-long missionaries. (I can
see them going out to Africa with a bunch of like-minded friends for a
couple of weeks of do-gooding-and-having-a-ball.)
Paul Roberts
Kendall K. Down gently whispered:
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> So what makes it "not a church"?
>
> The "still small voice" of God.
Is God *only* in the still small voice?
Paul Roberts
Kendall K. Down gently whispered:
> John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
>
>> Actually, it is a church, and a very useful one in the true
>> yradition of having different forms of worship for different types
>> of people. Just as Gospel is a form of church, so is Hillsong.
>
> You assume, of course, that Gospel is indeed a form of church.
I think you need to define "church", Ken.
>> It is unhelpful to try to constrain forms of worhip and types of
>> church within one's own narrow band of preferences
>
> That is very true, but if those who come to Christ in Gospel or
> Hillsong are then unable to settle down to worship somewhere where
> there is no great emotional "high" mediated by the exciting music and
> dramatic presentations, then I would say that whatever good Hillsong
> or Gospel has accomplished is just froth and bubbles, no substance.
The church which I (no longer) attend appears to be very similar to Hillsong
in the worship style and emotional appeal; it doesn't attract quite the same
numbers but it is big enough that it was able to plant a new church in the
neighbouring city recently.
It is very big on its teaching, which I'm sure you would regard as "soundly
Biblical". The teaching is, in fact, the main reason why I left - too
conservative/evangelical for me.
It's also worth pointing out that your "if" above is based on no evidence at
all.
John M Ward
Paul Roberts <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> In news:1ce80ef54...@diggingsonline.com,
> Kendall K. Down gently whispered:
> > In message <ds72hr$rpt$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> > "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> So what makes it "not a church"?
> >
> > The "still small voice" of God.
> Is God *only* in the still small voice?
He can be anywhere and in any form He wants to be. Burning bushes,
small and large miracles, still small voice, whatever. Applying our
limitations (perhaps done for "comfort zone" reasons?) is a mistake,
I think, so I try not to fall into that trap.
John M Ward
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> > I don't think that's really the case; rather, I think that they
> > tend to engage with a different sector of the community to that
> > which more traditional churches tend to encounter.
> I recognise that the people who attend Hillsong probably wouldn't
> come within a mile of my church, so in one sense I praise God for
> what Hillsong is doing.
Ah, good: well done!
> On the other hand, what if what Hillsong offers is not true
> worship of God but merely an emotional experience with religious
> trappings?
Reports I have had from my church colleagues who have been there,
and from my own watching of a few broadcasts, indicate that it is a
true church. Superficial or unsynpathetic reporting might not
convey this completely or correctly, but that's nothing new...
> I would be vastly interested to know how many of the young people
> who flock to Hillsong go on to become zealous and productive
> church members in less exciting "churches" when they move away
> from the area. Somehow I can't really see them settling down in
> your typical congregation of mainly pensioners or going out to
> Africa to become life-long missionaries.
Not straight away, no -- but sowing seeds for the future, now that's
more like God's longer-term planning. Some He gets straight away
(e.g. Jesse DuPlantis) in a instant conversion; but others will come
to useful service over a period of time. All in the big plan...
> (I can see them going
> out to Africa with a bunch of like-minded friends for a couple of
> weeks of do-gooding-and-having-a-ball.)
:-)
Ian Smith
>
> I recognise that the people who attend Hillsong probably wouldn't come
> within a mile of my church, so in one sense I praise God for what Hillsong
> is doing. On the other hand, what if what Hillsong offers is not true
> worship of God but merely an emotional experience with religious trappings?
So your 'logical' basis for asserting that it is not (a) church is
that it may be possible for it to not be a church, tehrefore it
can't possibly be a church?
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
Richard Emblem
<use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>Interesting article on the BBC website:
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4677440.stm
>
>Thoughts, anyone?
I have been meaning to go along to one of their Saturday night
meetings in our local Theatre (Leatherhead) for ages, having just
followed the links and listened to some of their music I am even more
determined to do so. Very inspirational.
--
Richard Emblem
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" Benjamin Franklin.
Ian Smith
> In message <026eu1pp8sb3pqegj...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > In what sense is it not a church, in your opinion? What is it lacking
> > that a church should have?
>
> I don't know what it *doesn't* have that a church should have, but I can
> tell you what it *does* have that a church shouldn't: half a dozen video
> screens too many, a complex lighting system, far too many performers, etc.
I can't find that prohibition in my bible. Can you supply the
reference?
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <ds72hr$rpt$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> So what makes it "not a church"?
>
>The "still small voice" of God.
How do you know that this is lacking?
Mark
--
http://www.GoogleFun.info - fun and games with Google!
"Life is both a major and a minor key"
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <ukqeu1hqvq0lcj4pd...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I don't think that's really the case; rather, I think that they tend
>> to engage with a different sector of the community to that which more
>> traditional churches tend to encounter.
>
>I recognise that the people who attend Hillsong probably wouldn't come
>within a mile of my church, so in one sense I praise God for what Hillsong
>is doing. On the other hand, what if what Hillsong offers is not true
>worship of God but merely an emotional experience with religious trappings?
What if the traditional churches are nothing but empty shells?
>I would be vastly interested to know how many of the young people who flock
>to Hillsong go on to become zealous and productive church members in less
>exciting "churches" when they move away from the area.
Or maybe they become zealous and productive church members in equally
exciting churches when they move away from the area.
> Somehow I can't
>really see them settling down in your typical congregation of mainly
>pensioners or going out to Africa to become life-long missionaries. (I can
>see them going out to Africa with a bunch of like-minded friends for a
>couple of weeks of do-gooding-and-having-a-ball.)
If a "typical congregation" is "mainly pensioners", then there really
is something seriously wrong with the church. It's this imbalance that
churches such as Hillsong are trying to redress. Christianity is not
just for the old and middle class.
Mark
--
http://www.MineOfUseless.info - everything you never needed to know!
"Save me from the nothing I致e become"
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <026eu1pp8sb3pqegj...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In what sense is it not a church, in your opinion? What is it lacking
>> that a church should have?
>
>I don't know what it *doesn't* have that a church should have, but I can
>tell you what it *does* have that a church shouldn't: half a dozen video
>screens too many, a complex lighting system, far too many performers, etc.
So how many video screens is enough, pray? And how complex can a
lighting system become before it is inappropriate for a church?
Mark
--
http://www.OrangeHedgehog.com - RSS feeds and Google Adsense tools
"I feel these four walls closing in"
Kendall K. Down
Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Presumably you aren't basing your assessment that it isn't a church
> *only* on that short clip. So what else do you know that justifies
> saying that it isn't a church?
The clip is enough.
Don't get me wrong; I'm not condemning what they do in publicising
Christianity and attracting people along to Christian events. For all I know
the teaching may be excellent and Biblical and sound, but it's still not
church.
Compare Hillsong with Billy Graham: those who went to Graham's crusades were
then introduced to local churches and went on to become valued and valuable
members of those churches. The same might be said about Alpha: those who
come to Christ through HTB or through the local Alphas end up as valuable
additions to the congregations of local churches, some big, some small.
As I have already remarked, I wonder about the fruits of Hillsong. If
someone comes to Christ through the excitement and pyrotechnics of Hillsong
and then has to move elsewhere in the country, will they settle down happily
in a small church with a wide age range, a quiet service consisting of a
hymn-sandwich from Ancient and Modern? I would be happy to learn that they
can and do, but I rather doubt it - and if the answer is indeed No, then one
has to question whether they really came to Christ or merely came to
Hillsong.
Kendall K. Down
John M Ward <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
> Probably: whenever one of his messages appears (or twenty!) we all
> know that something is a-foot ;-)
What do you mean "or twenty"? Didn't you see the latest stats? For the
second month in a row Gareth is back where he rightly belongs - in top
position.
Gareth McCaughan
> In message <87wtg82...@g.mccaughan.ntlworld.com>
> Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Presumably you aren't basing your assessment that it isn't a church
>> *only* on that short clip. So what else do you know that justifies
>> saying that it isn't a church?
>
> The clip is enough.
If you really truly think that, then either the clip
must contain horrors that you inexplicably failed to
mention, or else you must be off your trolley. I wonder
which.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <87wtg82...@g.mccaughan.ntlworld.com>
> Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
>> Presumably you aren't basing your assessment that it isn't a church
>> *only* on that short clip. So what else do you know that justifies
>> saying that it isn't a church?
>
>The clip is enough.
Why? What can you see on that clip which conclusively tells you that
what you are seeing is not a church?
>Don't get me wrong; I'm not condemning what they do in publicising
>Christianity and attracting people along to Christian events. For all I know
>the teaching may be excellent and Biblical and sound, but it's still not
>church.
So what else do they need to add?
>Compare Hillsong with Billy Graham: those who went to Graham's crusades were
>then introduced to local churches and went on to become valued and valuable
>members of those churches. The same might be said about Alpha: those who
>come to Christ through HTB or through the local Alphas end up as valuable
>additions to the congregations of local churches, some big, some small.
But Hillsong *is* a church; it doesn't need to add people to other
congregations.
>As I have already remarked, I wonder about the fruits of Hillsong. If
>someone comes to Christ through the excitement and pyrotechnics of Hillsong
>and then has to move elsewhere in the country, will they settle down happily
>in a small church with a wide age range, a quiet service consisting of a
>hymn-sandwich from Ancient and Modern?
Why should they need to? Why can't they find another church which has
a style of worship that they're comfortable with? If you moved to a
different part of the country, would you settle down in the local CofE
church or would you look for something closer to what you're familiar
with?
Mark
--
Who do you think you are? Look up your surname at http://names.orangehedgehog.com
"Every whisper, every waking hour"
John M Ward
> > Probably: whenever one of his messages appears (or twenty!) we
> > all know that something is a-foot ;-)
> What do you mean "or twenty"?
They tend to arrive in sizeable batches, I've noticed.
> Didn't you see the latest stats? For the second month in a row
> Gareth is back where he rightly belongs - in top position.
Second place does not necessarily mean being a long way behind the
most prolific contributor...
Paul Roberts
[snip]
> If a "typical congregation" is "mainly pensioners", then there really
> is something seriously wrong with the church. It's this imbalance that
> churches such as Hillsong are trying to redress. Christianity is not
> just for the old and middle class.
Couldn't agree more. Modern worship styles at churches like Hillsong are
necessary because traditional churches have failed to move with the times,
resulting in the alienation of an entire generation.
I just wish that they weren't all conservative/evangelical.
Paul Roberts
[snip]
> As I have already remarked, I wonder about the fruits of Hillsong. If
> someone comes to Christ through the excitement and pyrotechnics of
> Hillsong and then has to move elsewhere in the country, will they
> settle down happily in a small church with a wide age range, a quiet
> service consisting of a hymn-sandwich from Ancient and Modern? I
> would be happy to learn that they can and do, but I rather doubt it -
> and if the answer is indeed No, then one has to question whether they
> really came to Christ or merely came to Hillsong.
Could the same question not be asked about whether someone came to Christ or
came to *your* church?
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Is God *only* in the still small voice?
Ask Elijah.
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> It is very big on its teaching, which I'm sure you would regard as "soundly
> Biblical". The teaching is, in fact, the main reason why I left - too
> conservative/evangelical for me.
See? I said it was no good.
> It's also worth pointing out that your "if" above is based on no evidence at
> all.
Actually, that is not so. I have encountered a fair few folk who were all
keen Christians (of the rave, rolling in the aisles variety) but once
familiarity had bred contempt - ie. the emotional high no longer 'worked' -
either drifted on to the newest, loudest church on the block or drifted away
from church altogether. I suspect that we have an example of this sort of
thing on uk.r.c in the individual who regularly complains about the
shortcomings of a particular style of worship but appears unable to tolerate
anything else.
Kendall K. Down
Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
> I can't find that prohibition in my bible. Can you supply the
> reference?
Oh, it's easy. Jesus didn't use a video projector so ....
Paul Roberts
Kendall K. Down gently whispered:
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Is God *only* in the still small voice?
>
> Ask Elijah.
I'm asking you. I'll re-phrase: Is God *always* only in the still small
voice?
Paul Roberts
Kendall K. Down gently whispered:
[snip]
>> It's also worth pointing out that your "if" above is based on no
>> evidence at all.
>
> Actually, that is not so. I have encountered a fair few folk who were
> all keen Christians (of the rave, rolling in the aisles variety) but
> once familiarity had bred contempt - ie. the emotional high no longer
> 'worked' - either drifted on to the newest, loudest church on the
> block or drifted away from church altogether. I suspect that we have
> an example of this sort of thing on uk.r.c in the individual who
> regularly complains about the shortcomings of a particular style of
> worship but appears unable to tolerate anything else.
There are people who drift away from all churches. When I was in my late
teens/early 20s in the Methodist church we had a youth group consisting of
20+ people. Only three or four years later when a significant number of them
had gone away to university, others also left until there were only a small
handful of us left, and the missing ones never came back.
It's all too easy to blame it on the need for emotional highs or whatever,
but the fact is that everyone faces times of trial in their Christian lives
and in some cases their faith is not strong enough to see it through. This
is especially true of young people who go through turbulent times in other
areas such as career choices and relationships. I don't believe it has a
great deal to do with the type of church they worship in.
BTW, I don't think you should make too many assumptions about the individual
you're referring to in ukrc (actually, I think there are two). Despite their
complaints it doesn't seem to be possible to engage them in conversation on
the subject.
John M Ward
Heather Cawte <hea...@barwickgreen.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:40:14 GMT, John M Ward
> <jo...@acornusers.org> wrote:
> >I welcome Hillsong to Britain, even though it isn't quite "my
> >scene": at least I have learned to be broader in outlook,
> >provided the message is the right one, which it clearly is at
> >Hillsong, as those who have watched the Australian broadcasts
> >will be well aware.
> Hear hear. I prefer my Quaker meetings for myself, but I would
> never try to enforce them on those who prefer a livelier
> atrmosphere. In my Father's house there are many mansions - and
> some of them have big hi-fi's :)
Just as long as they have good soundproofing, for the benefit of the
neighbours...
Tony Gillam
> Mark Goodge wrote:
>> If a "typical congregation" is "mainly pensioners", then there really
>> is something seriously wrong with the church. It's this imbalance
>> that churches such as Hillsong are trying to redress. Christianity
>> is not just for the old and middle class.
>
> Couldn't agree more. Modern worship styles at churches like Hillsong
> are necessary because traditional churches have failed to move with
> the times, resulting in the alienation of an entire generation.
>
> I just wish that they weren't all conservative/evangelical.
My last church, which would however be described as broadly
cons/evangelical, has three services on a Sunday, each with a different
flavour although none of them so rigid or extreme that one would feel
uncomfortable in any of them. We all have our personal preferences/
prejudices and it is unrealistic to expect that "one size fits all" type of
worship will bring each of us into that closeness to God that worship is all
about. We need to remain aware how much of it is cultural conditioning.
--
Tony Gillam
tony....@lineone.net
http://www.bookourvilla.co.uk/spain
Sun, sand and sangria
Paul Roberts
> Paul Roberts wrote:
[snip]
>> Modern worship styles at churches like Hillsong
>> are necessary because traditional churches have failed to move with
>> the times, resulting in the alienation of an entire generation.
>>
>> I just wish that they weren't all conservative/evangelical.
>
> My last church, which would however be described as broadly
> cons/evangelical, has three services on a Sunday, each with a
> different flavour although none of them so rigid or extreme that one
> would feel uncomfortable in any of them. We all have our personal
> preferences/ prejudices and it is unrealistic to expect that "one
> size fits all" type of worship will bring each of us into that
> closeness to God that worship is all about. We need to remain aware
> how much of it is cultural conditioning.
Sure - I wouldn't want to give the impression that I think we should dump
the more traditional worship styles.
Kendall K. Down
Chris Stiles <b9a9...@spamex.com> wrote:
> I have many criticisms of Hillsongs, but would tend to disagree with the
> statement above. From observation, Hillsongs tries to get every member
> involved in a small/home group relatively early on - and it would seem that
> this is where the majority of teaching actually takes place, so the content of
> the sermons alone is not necessarily an indication of the depth of the church.
But they are *Hillsong* small groups and therefore feeders to the big
theatrical events.
> They also seem very good at finding each person's giftings/talents and then
> getting them involved - one reason why each Hillsongs church is able to put on
> multiple services each Sunday.
I can only approve of that.
> Sure, and I contend that the only way to judge would be by the quality of
> Christians they produce.
Which is exactly what I have been saying, for example in the paragraph below:
> > someone comes to Christ through the excitement and pyrotechnics of Hillsong
> > and then has to move elsewhere in the country, will they settle down happily
> > in a small church with a wide age range, a quiet service consisting of a
> > hymn-sandwich from Ancient and Modern? I would be happy to learn that they
> > can and do, but I rather doubt it - and if the answer is indeed No
> I'm guessing that there are several churches represented on this group which
> you wouldn't attend 'happily' - obedience is quite another thing :-)
Quite possibly, though I think that if I were somehow marooned on a desert
island with one of them as the only church available, I would make the
effort.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> So how many video screens is enough, pray? And how complex can a
> lighting system become before it is inappropriate for a church?
Frankly, I think that even one video screen is one too many. If your church
has grown so big that you need one to magnify the speaker so that those at
the back can see him/her, then your church is too big and needs to split.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> >The "still small voice" of God.
> How do you know that this is lacking?
Well, if it's not lacking, it can't be heard above the noise.
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Could the same question not be asked about whether someone came to Christ or
> came to *your* church?
It could indeed and if someone found themselves unable to fellowship with
other Christians as a result of attending my church, I would regard myself
as a failure.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> Why should they need to? Why can't they find another church which has
> a style of worship that they're comfortable with?
If you moved to north Wales you would have a very long journey to find
anything like Hillsong. Even the local charismatic churches lack a single
video screen, let alone multiple ones and the "Worship in Movement" group in
the biggest charismatic church in town - Sussex Street Baptist - consists
(last time I was there) of a middle-aged woman, her daughter and three
middle-aged friends.
> If you moved to a
> different part of the country, would you settle down in the local CofE
> church or would you look for something closer to what you're familiar
> with?
I already enjoy worshipping with a range of different church styles.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> What if the traditional churches are nothing but empty shells?
There are certainly some traditional churches which would fit that
description.
> Or maybe they become zealous and productive church members in equally
> exciting churches when they move away from the area.
1. Then I would be delighted to withdraw my criticisms.
2. But the problem is that there are no equally exciting churches in most
areas - exciting, that is, in terms of theatrical displays. There are plenty
of exciting ones in terms of God moving within them.
> If a "typical congregation" is "mainly pensioners", then there really
> is something seriously wrong with the church.
I agree with you, but I have worshipped with every church in Rhyl and all
except one in Prestatyn and that is the picture in all of them. Some have a
few children or young people, most don't even have a few.
> It's this imbalance that
> churches such as Hillsong are trying to redress. Christianity is not
> just for the old and middle class.
I commend them for the effort - that's not what I am criticising.
I'm sure I could attract young men in droves (and young men are what most
churches lack) if I were to employ topless go-go dancers to provide backing
to my sermons, but would the mere fact of a full church satisfy you that
what was being done was legitimate?
Ian Smith
>
> If you moved to north Wales you would have a very long journey to find
> anything like Hillsong. Even the local charismatic churches lack a single
> video screen,
The last time I was in Caernarfon we selected our Sunday morning place
of worship purely on the basis of teh next service in English at any
church we found. It was a Church in Wales church. The preacher used
a video projector to accompany and illustrate his sermon.
The organist also played 'And can it be' faster than I have ever heard
it played.
regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
Paul Roberts
> In message <dsbb3a$pd7$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Could the same question not be asked about whether someone came to
>> Christ or came to *your* church?
>
> It could indeed and if someone found themselves unable to fellowship
> with other Christians as a result of attending my church, I would
> regard myself as a failure.
Fine - so you're left with the problem of demonstrating that one is the case
and not the other.
Incidentally, I'd still like to know what your definition of "church" is
that Hillsong doesn't satisfy.
Diana
news:d32dd9f54...@diggingsonline.com...
I find it ironic that the very people who criticize me for thinking that a
"burning in the bosom" is important while quietly reading scripture or in
prayer as a confirmation of truth are quite approving of the sort of
emotional high one gets from exciting theater, special effects and loud,
fast music.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <7snhu19cogf8ibka4...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> >The "still small voice" of God.
>
>> How do you know that this is lacking?
>
>Well, if it's not lacking, it can't be heard above the noise.
How do you know that it can't be heard aboce the noise? For that
matter, how do you know that God isn't in the noise?
Mark
--
http://www.MineOfUseless.info - everything you never needed to know!
"Sometimes everything is wrong"
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <atnhu1lnq3n9t3a64...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> What if the traditional churches are nothing but empty shells?
>
>There are certainly some traditional churches which would fit that
>description.
>
>> Or maybe they become zealous and productive church members in equally
>> exciting churches when they move away from the area.
>
>1. Then I would be delighted to withdraw my criticisms.
>2. But the problem is that there are no equally exciting churches in most
>areas - exciting, that is, in terms of theatrical displays. There are plenty
>of exciting ones in terms of God moving within them.
It isn't just the theatrical displays. That's really just a sideshow;
what matters for the people who attend these churches is that the
church has a contemporary approach to worship and culture.
>> If a "typical congregation" is "mainly pensioners", then there really
>> is something seriously wrong with the church.
>
>I agree with you, but I have worshipped with every church in Rhyl and all
>except one in Prestatyn and that is the picture in all of them. Some have a
>few children or young people, most don't even have a few.
Then you agree with me that there is something seriously wrong with
the churches in Rhyl and Prestatyn. It might be a good idea,
therefore, to consider how to address this flaw before criticising
other churches that are suceeding in reaching the generation that you
appear to have abandoned.
>> It's this imbalance that
>> churches such as Hillsong are trying to redress. Christianity is not
>> just for the old and middle class.
>
>I commend them for the effort - that's not what I am criticising.
>
>I'm sure I could attract young men in droves (and young men are what most
>churches lack) if I were to employ topless go-go dancers to provide backing
>to my sermons, but would the mere fact of a full church satisfy you that
>what was being done was legitimate?
Actually, I suspect that they can find enough topless go-go dancers if
they want without needing to put up with a sermon in order to obtain
them. It's not a matter of gimmicks, it's about having a culture and
ethos of church that allows it to make contact with a different
culture of people.
Mark
--
http://www.MineOfUseless.info - everything you never needed to know!
"Time is tickin' and we can't go back"
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <33ohu1h6o9330sjmp...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> So how many video screens is enough, pray? And how complex can a
>> lighting system become before it is inappropriate for a church?
>
>Frankly, I think that even one video screen is one too many. If your church
>has grown so big that you need one to magnify the speaker so that those at
>the back can see him/her, then your church is too big and needs to split.
You're making an unsupported assumption here that there is a maximum
acceptable size for a church.
Mark
--
http://www.MotorwayServices.info - read and share comments and opinons
"There's just too much that time cannot erase"
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> I'm asking you. I'll re-phrase: Is God *always* only in the still small
> voice?
I suspect the answer is Yes. Someone is doubtless itching to cry "Sinai",
but I would point out that at Sinai it was *God* making the noise, not man.
Too much human noise, colour, flashing lights, whatever, serve to distract
so that although God may be present - He is, after all, everywhere by
definition - we cannot perceive Him. I can't think of a single saint or
mystic who urged people to make as much noise as possible in order to hear
God: on the other hand, I can think of plenty who by precept and example
taught that silence, withdrawal and contemplation were the routes to God.
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> There are people who drift away from all churches.
This is true, though as your example shows (I think), it is mainly those
brought up in the church who drift out as they go to college/uni/big
city/whatever. New converts tend to stay, in my experience, apart from
charismatic churches, which appear to have a much higher "churn" rate than
other churches. (That is only an impression, mind. I don't have figures to
back me up.)
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <61qhu1pt2d7tc8ipn...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Why should they need to? Why can't they find another church which has
>> a style of worship that they're comfortable with?
>
>If you moved to north Wales you would have a very long journey to find
>anything like Hillsong. Even the local charismatic churches lack a single
>video screen, let alone multiple ones and the "Worship in Movement" group in
>the biggest charismatic church in town - Sussex Street Baptist - consists
>(last time I was there) of a middle-aged woman, her daughter and three
>middle-aged friends.
You seem to be rather hung-up on video screens. It isn't necessary to
have video screens in order to have a contemporary style of worship.
>> If you moved to a
>> different part of the country, would you settle down in the local CofE
>> church or would you look for something closer to what you're familiar
>> with?
>
>I already enjoy worshipping with a range of different church styles.
Except, it would seem, the one under discussion.
Mark
--
http://www.OrangeHedgehog.com - RSS feeds and Google Adsense tools
"We were meant to live for so much more"
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <kdk6c6w...@random-node.example.org>
> Chris Stiles <b9a9...@spamex.com> wrote:
>
>> I have many criticisms of Hillsongs, but would tend to disagree with the
>> statement above. From observation, Hillsongs tries to get every member
>> involved in a small/home group relatively early on - and it would seem that
>> this is where the majority of teaching actually takes place, so the content of
>> the sermons alone is not necessarily an indication of the depth of the church.
>
>But they are *Hillsong* small groups and therefore feeders to the big
>theatrical events.
It's the other way around. The "big theatrical events" are feeders to
the small groups, which are where the real business of church takes
place.
>> Sure, and I contend that the only way to judge would be by the quality of
>> Christians they produce.
>
>Which is exactly what I have been saying, for example in the paragraph below:
>
>> > someone comes to Christ through the excitement and pyrotechnics of Hillsong
>> > and then has to move elsewhere in the country, will they settle down happily
>> > in a small church with a wide age range, a quiet service consisting of a
>> > hymn-sandwich from Ancient and Modern? I would be happy to learn that they
>> > can and do, but I rather doubt it - and if the answer is indeed No
But your paragraph here is entirely hypothetical - you have no direct
knowledge of this type of church or the type of Christians they
produce. And yet, when other seek to correct your misunderstandings,
you refer back to your hypothesis as if it carried equal weight with
the facts presented by others.
Mark
--
http://www.MineOfUseless.info - everything you never needed to know!
"And so we're told this is the golden age"
Gareth McCaughan
> In message <dscadg$7tp$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'm asking you. I'll re-phrase: Is God *always* only in the still small
>> voice?
...
> Too much human noise, colour, flashing lights, whatever, serve to distract
> so that although God may be present - He is, after all, everywhere by
> definition - we cannot perceive Him. I can't think of a single saint or
> mystic who urged people to make as much noise as possible in order to hear
> God: on the other hand, I can think of plenty who by precept and example
> taught that silence, withdrawal and contemplation were the routes to God.
Psalms 98 and 150 both seem to me to encourage making loud noises
in worship from time to time.
--
Gareth McCaughan
.sig under construc
Gareth McCaughan
> I find it ironic that the very people who criticize me for thinking that a
> "burning in the bosom" is important while quietly reading scripture or in
> prayer as a confirmation of truth are quite approving of the sort of
> emotional high one gets from exciting theater, special effects and loud,
> fast music.
There's a difference between thinking that such an emotional high
is harmless or even beneficial, and thinking that it's good evidence
of the truth of what one's reading or thinking about.
I'm all in favour of the pleasure that comes from beautiful music,
too (not the same thing as the excitement that comes from loud music),
but that's not a guarantee of truth either: one can combine great music
with words that are stupid or evil or just plain wrong.
John M Ward
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Feb 2006 07:10:54 GMT, Kendall K. Down put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
> >In message <33ohu1h6o9330sjmp...@news.markshouse.net>
> > Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> So how many video screens is enough, pray? And how complex can
> >> a lighting system become before it is inappropriate for a
> >> church?
We have one drop-down screen and four monitors; but these are just
for words, slides and the Salvation Army's own "Link" videos: we do
not have any cameras.
> >Frankly, I think that even one video screen is one too many. If
> >your church has grown so big that you need one to magnify the
> >speaker so that those at the back can see him/her, then your
> >church is too big and needs to split.
> You're making an unsupported assumption here that there is a
> maximum acceptable size for a church.
Indeed. For example, is a cathedral a church or isn't it?
Robert Marshall
> Ken Down wrote:
>
>> I can't think of a single saint or mystic who urged people to make
>> as much noise as possible in order to hear God: on the other hand,
>> I can think of plenty who by precept and example taught that
>> silence, withdrawal and contemplation were the routes to God.
>
> Psalms 98 and 150 both seem to me to encourage making loud noises
> in worship from time to time.
>
And from the Victorians(thread tie):
O praise ye the Lord,
All things that give sound;
Each jubilant chord,
Re-echo around;
Loud organs His glory
Forth tell in deep tone,
And sweet harp, the story
Of what He hath done.
Robert
--
Conformity means death for any comunity. A loyal opposition is a
necessity in any community Karol Wojtyla (1969)
Links and things http://rmstar.blogspot.com/
Ian
> In article <kbveu1525scrs2564...@4ax.com>,
> Heather Cawte <hea...@barwickgreen.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > Hear hear. I prefer my Quaker meetings for myself, but I would
> > never try to enforce them on those who prefer a livelier
> > atrmosphere.
> Just as long as they have good soundproofing, for the benefit of the
> neighbours...
Not normally a problem at Quaker meeting houses!
Ian
Diana
news:87mzh0z...@g.mccaughan.ntlworld.com...
Well, that's my point exactly. However, these "Theater churches" capitalize
on just that entertainment value to lure in, capture and keep an audience.
It is my opinion (and I'm pretty curmudgeonly about this, admittedly) that
an audience is not a congregation.
Paul Roberts
> In message <dscaul$886$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> There are people who drift away from all churches.
>
> This is true, though as your example shows (I think), it is mainly
> those brought up in the church who drift out as they go to
> college/uni/big city/whatever. New converts tend to stay, in my
> experience, apart from charismatic churches, which appear to have a
> much higher "churn" rate than other churches. (That is only an
> impression, mind. I don't have figures to back me up.)
Exactly. Is it possible that your impression is fuelled by prejudice rather
than evidence?
Certainly in the example I gave of our old youth group, many of those who
were part of it then drifted away were "new converts", although it's quite
possible that they were motivated by social rather than spiritual factors.
Paul Roberts
> In message <dscadg$7tp$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> I'm asking you. I'll re-phrase: Is God *always* only in the still
>> small voice?
>
> I suspect the answer is Yes. Someone is doubtless itching to cry
> "Sinai", but I would point out that at Sinai it was *God* making the
> noise, not man.
>
> Too much human noise, colour, flashing lights, whatever, serve to
> distract so that although God may be present - He is, after all,
> everywhere by definition - we cannot perceive Him. I can't think of a
> single saint or mystic who urged people to make as much noise as
> possible in order to hear God: on the other hand, I can think of
> plenty who by precept and example taught that silence, withdrawal and
> contemplation were the routes to God.
Here's something which you may not have considered: People Are Different.
Some are able to hear God in all kinds of situations which don't work for
you. And it is certainly true that many younger people respond better to
that type of environment.
John M Ward
Paul Roberts <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Kendall K. Down wrote:
> > In message <dscadg$7tp$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> > "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm asking you. I'll re-phrase: Is God *always* only in the
> >> still small voice?
> >
> > I suspect the answer is Yes. Someone is doubtless itching to
> > cry "Sinai", but I would point out that at Sinai it was *God*
> > making the noise, not man.
> >
> > Too much human noise, colour, flashing lights, whatever, serve
> > to distract so that although God may be present - He is, after
> > all, everywhere by definition - we cannot perceive Him. I can't
> > think of a single saint or mystic who urged people to make as
> > much noise as possible in order to hear God: on the other hand,
> > I can think of plenty who by precept and example taught that
> > silence, withdrawal and contemplation were the routes to God.
> Here's something which you may not have considered: People Are
> Different.
That's the key to this. It's why we have different Christian
churches in the first place. There is provision for *everyone*,
just as Jesus proclaimed He came that everone might be saved.
> Some are able to hear God in all kinds of situations which don't
> work for you. And it is certainly true that many younger people
> respond better to that type of environment.
They must not be excluded from Jesus' offer, and His church, by
being made uncomfortable and feeling like an "outsider". There
should be somewhere suitable for all tastes, provided it is
accordance with His way and teachings. Surely that is the right way
to go?
Putting our personal prejudices in the way is not helpful to those
who were not made to be exactly the same as any particular one of
us. We *are* different, and very deliberatley so, as outlined
rather well in Corinthians 12, vv 12-27.
philip....@ntlworld.com
> In article <dsfpet$qtk$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>,
> Paul Roberts <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Kendall K. Down wrote:
> > > In message <dscadg$7tp$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> > > "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I'm asking you. I'll re-phrase: Is God *always* only in the
> > >> still small voice?
> > >
> > > I suspect the answer is Yes. Someone is doubtless itching to
> > > cry "Sinai", but I would point out that at Sinai it was *God*
> > > making the noise, not man.
> > >
> > > Too much human noise, colour, flashing lights, whatever, serve
> > > to distract so that although God may be present - He is, after
> > > all, everywhere by definition - we cannot perceive Him. I can't
> > > think of a single saint or mystic who urged people to make as
> > > much noise as possible in order to hear God: on the other hand,
> > > I can think of plenty who by precept and example taught that
> > > silence, withdrawal and contemplation were the routes to God.
>
> > Here's something which you may not have considered: People Are
> > Different.
>
> That's the key to this. It's why we have different Christian
> churches in the first place. There is provision for *everyone*,
> just as Jesus proclaimed He came that everone might be saved.
We have different churches because we fail to live as Jesus told us to.
Jesus didnt come so that everyone might be saved.
> > Some are able to hear God in all kinds of situations which don't
> > work for you. And it is certainly true that many younger people
> > respond better to that type of environment.
Strangely such charismatic churches tend to attract people who dont
have much doctrinal understanding and they rarely give them any.
> They must not be excluded from Jesus' offer, and His church, by
> being made uncomfortable and feeling like an "outsider". There
> should be somewhere suitable for all tastes, provided it is
> accordance with His way and teachings. Surely that is the right way
> to go?
The right way to go would be for us to live as Jesus wants us to. Sadly
we dont and we see that issue reflected in the sheer number of
denominations and non denom groups.
> Putting our personal prejudices in the way is not helpful to those
> who were not made to be exactly the same as any particular one of
> us. We *are* different, and very deliberatley so, as outlined
> rather well in Corinthians 12, vv 12-27.
We are different. But If we all start some where and we are all going
to the same place we should be able to travel on the same road.
Phil
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Incidentally, I'd still like to know what your definition of "church" is
> that Hillsong doesn't satisfy.
How about "a place of worship where the focus is on God"? I believe that
noise and flashing lights attract attention away from God.
Kendall K. Down
"Diana" <dian...@mariansavesnothing.com> wrote:
> I find it ironic that the very people who criticize me for thinking that a
> "burning in the bosom" is important while quietly reading scripture or in
> prayer as a confirmation of truth are quite approving of the sort of
> emotional high one gets from exciting theater, special effects and loud,
> fast music.
Quite so, though on different grounds. Mistaking emotional highs for a
religious experience is one fault, mistaking a warm gooey feeling as a
substitute for rational thinking is another.
Kendall K. Down
Ian Smith <i...@astounding.org.uk> wrote:
> The last time I was in Caernarfon we selected our Sunday morning place
> of worship purely on the basis of teh next service in English at any
> church we found. It was a Church in Wales church. The preacher used
> a video projector to accompany and illustrate his sermon.
"Accompany"? You mean, it displayed Windows Media Player style patterns in
response to his speech?
> The organist also played 'And can it be' faster than I have ever heard
> it played.
Was the service running late?
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> How do you know that it can't be heard aboce the noise? For that
> matter, how do you know that God isn't in the noise?
Can you find anyone - apart from this modern era - who would claim that God
is to be found *in* noise? And I don't mean, found despite the noise.
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <dscaul$886$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> There are people who drift away from all churches.
>
>This is true, though as your example shows (I think), it is mainly those
>brought up in the church who drift out as they go to college/uni/big
>city/whatever. New converts tend to stay, in my experience, apart from
>charismatic churches, which appear to have a much higher "churn" rate than
>other churches. (That is only an impression, mind. I don't have figures to
>back me up.)
Then get some figures, or withdraw your assertion.
Mark
--
http://www.OrangeHedgehog.com - RSS feeds and Google Adsense tools
"If you never know truth then you never know love"
Mark Goodge
keyboard and typed:
>In message <08rlu19cvvhsudts7...@news.markshouse.net>
> Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> How do you know that it can't be heard aboce the noise? For that
>> matter, how do you know that God isn't in the noise?
>
>Can you find anyone - apart from this modern era - who would claim that God
>is to be found *in* noise? And I don't mean, found despite the noise.
Well, without time travel, it would be hard for me to find anyone from
another era to ask. But organs and orchestras can be pretty loud, and
people have been finding God in their noise for a lot longer than you
or I have been around.
Mark
--
http://www.FridayFun.net - jokes, lyrics and ringtones
"Look at the stars; look how they shine for you"
Diana
> In message <CYxGf.17091$0i1.5506@trnddc04>
> "Diana" <dian...@mariansavesnothing.com> wrote:
>
>> I find it ironic that the very people who criticize me for thinking that
>> a
>> "burning in the bosom" is important while quietly reading scripture or in
>> prayer as a confirmation of truth are quite approving of the sort of
>> emotional high one gets from exciting theater, special effects and loud,
>> fast music.
>
> Quite so, though on different grounds. Mistaking emotional highs for a
> religious experience is one fault, mistaking a warm gooey feeling as a
> substitute for rational thinking is another.
Ah, but WE aren't the ones equating the experience of a confirmation of the
Holy Ghost with a 'warm gooey feeling.' To my mind, that's a little like
equating the vibration of a washing machine with a 7.6 earthquake.
Paul Roberts
> In message <dsdtn0$v9j$1...@ucsnew1.ncl.ac.uk>
> "Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, I'd still like to know what your definition of
>> "church" is that Hillsong doesn't satisfy.
>
> How about "a place of worship where the focus is on God"?
A reasonable working definition.
> I believe
> that noise and flashing lights attract attention away from God.
And because you have this strange belief, anything which uses such things is
"not a church"? Hmm.
Paul Roberts
[snip]
[Paul R]
>>> Some are able to hear God in all kinds of situations which don't
>>> work for you. And it is certainly true that many younger people
>>> respond better to that type of environment.
>
> Strangely such charismatic churches tend to attract people who dont
> have much doctrinal understanding and they rarely give them any.
Doctrine schmoctrine. Perhaps they think it's more important to help people
to get to know God.
[snip]
> We are different. But If we all start some where and we are all going
> to the same place we should be able to travel on the same road.
But you assume that we all start from the same place. We don't.
Gareth McCaughan
>>> I find it ironic that the very people who criticize me for thinking that
>>> a "burning in the bosom" is important while quietly reading scripture or
>>> in prayer as a confirmation of truth are quite approving of the sort of
>>> emotional high one gets from exciting theater, special effects and loud,
>>> fast music.
>>
>> There's a difference between thinking that such an emotional high
>> is harmless or even beneficial, and thinking that it's good evidence
>> of the truth of what one's reading or thinking about.
>>
>> I'm all in favour of the pleasure that comes from beautiful music,
>> too (not the same thing as the excitement that comes from loud music),
>> but that's not a guarantee of truth either: one can combine great music
>> with words that are stupid or evil or just plain wrong.
>
> Well, that's my point exactly.
Then I regret that I'm confused :-).
I don't see any inconsistency if someone (1) utterly disagrees
that a "burning in the bosom" is any *evidence of truth*, but
(2) thoroughly approves of making church exciting by having loud
music, even though that excitement won't in itself be evidence
of anything other than the loud music.
Nor if someone (1) is convinced that a "burning in the bosom"
is evidence of truth, but (2) thinks that trying to make church
exciting with loud music is liable to do more harm than good
by distracting people from the feelings they ought to be paying
attention to and confusing excitement with conviction.
> However, these "Theater churches" capitalize
> on just that entertainment value to lure in, capture and keep an audience.
> It is my opinion (and I'm pretty curmudgeonly about this, admittedly) that
> an audience is not a congregation.
An audience may or may not be a congregation. I don't
see why a given group of people can't be both at roughly
the same time.
Being an audience is about what you're doing. Being a
congregation is more about why you're doing it. If praying,
listening to sermons, singing, meditation, reading the
scriptures, and enacting various rites can all be part
of what a congregation does, I'm at a loss to see why
being-an-audience shouldn't be too.
Richard Dudley
[ Ken ]
> >This is true, though as your example shows (I think), it is mainly those
> >brought up in the church who drift out as they go to college/uni/big
> >city/whatever. New converts tend to stay, in my experience, apart from
> >charismatic churches, which appear to have a much higher "churn" rate than
> >other churches. (That is only an impression, mind. I don't have figures to
> >back me up.)
>
> Then get some figures, or withdraw your assertion.
I'm curious why you'd hold Ken to this standard of support for his
assertions when you're happy to make assertions quite unsupported by
evidence ? Do you have reasons why Ken should be treated any
differently to yourself ?
Richard
Kendall K. Down
philip....@ntlworld.com wrote:
> Strangely such charismatic churches tend to attract people who dont
> have much doctrinal understanding and they rarely give them any.
Hmmmm. One of the best sermons I have heard in Britain was in a charismatic
church, meeting in a public hall. Mind you, if I recall correctly it
disbanded shortly after owing to irreconcilable differences between various
members, so perhaps they weren't listening to the sermons.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> You seem to be rather hung-up on video screens. It isn't necessary to
> have video screens in order to have a contemporary style of worship.
Point to me, I think.
> Except, it would seem, the one under discussion.
I'm sure I would enjoy the Hillsong experience (though not on a regular
basis). A good concert is always enjoyable.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> It's the other way around. The "big theatrical events" are feeders to
> the small groups, which are where the real business of church takes
> place.
So you are more or less conceding my point.
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Exactly. Is it possible that your impression is fuelled by prejudice rather
> than evidence?
Whatever fuels it, it is based on observation of charismatic churches in
north Wales and other parts of Britain.
Kendall K. Down
Gareth McCaughan <Gareth.M...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Psalms 98 and 150 both seem to me to encourage making loud noises
> in worship from time to time.
I'll bet "The Message" makes it clear that the instruments in question are
to be played very, very quietly.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> Then you agree with me that there is something seriously wrong with
> the churches in Rhyl and Prestatyn. It might be a good idea,
> therefore, to consider how to address this flaw before criticising
> other churches that are suceeding in reaching the generation that you
> appear to have abandoned.
If it were only the churches in Rhyl and Prestatyn you might have a point.
As you are aware, I visit rather a lot of churches with the idea of making
films and frequently chat to wardens/vicars/cleaning ladies while doing so.
The picture of congregations made up of half a dozen old ladies is pretty
common, though I grant you that there are cheering exceptions.
You might rightly claim that charismatic churches and "contemporary worship"
- whatever that is - is the answer, as charismatic churches are usually more
enthusiastic and have younger and more numerous congregations. I'm not
convinced. I've seen two charismatic churches up here grow at astonishing
speed and then more or less fall apart when the minister leaves. (One closed
down completely within six weeks!) As I presume the Spirit of God didn't
accompany the departing clergyman, I am left wondering whether the
attraction was the Spirit or the charismatic minister?
Something similar took place in the famous Nine O'clock service (was it 9?)
which attracted oodles of people to this "contemporary worship". Again it
turned out that it was the charismatic minister who was the attraction and
when he proved to have feet of clay, the whole thing fell apart.
> Actually, I suspect that they can find enough topless go-go dancers if
> they want without needing to put up with a sermon in order to obtain
> them. It's not a matter of gimmicks, it's about having a culture and
> ethos of church that allows it to make contact with a different
> culture of people.
I certainly agree with you that it is not a matter of gimmicks. We appear to
differ, however, in what constitutes a gimmick.
Kendall K. Down
Mark Goodge <use...@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> You're making an unsupported assumption here that there is a maximum
> acceptable size for a church.
It's not entirely unsupported. Experience shows that as numbers increase
fellowship decreases unless other measures are taken, such as the emphasis
on small group house meetings in the Korean church - which basically is
reducing the size of the church but then just coming together for high days
and holidays.
Kendall K. Down
"Ian" <ian.g...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > Just as long as they have good soundproofing, for the benefit of the
> > neighbours...
> Not normally a problem at Quaker meeting houses!
I thought you needed good sound-proofing to protect the Quakers from the
neighbours.
Kendall K. Down
"Paul Roberts" <p.t.r...@nospam.ncl.ac.uk> wrote:
> Here's something which you may not have considered: People Are Different.
> Some are able to hear God in all kinds of situations which don't work for
> you. And it is certainly true that many younger people respond better to
> that type of environment.
But what is it to which they are responding?
It is indubitably true that young people appear to prefer loud noises and
flashing lights. Whether, under those circumstances, they are listening to
God is a moot question.
John M Ward
Kendall K. Down <webm...@diggingsonline.com> wrote:
> In message <1139482838....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
> "Ian" <ian.g...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > > Just as long as they have good soundproofing, for the benefit
> > > of the neighbours...
> > Not normally a problem at Quaker meeting houses!
> I thought you needed good sound-proofing to protect the Quakers
> from the neighbours.
That's right: it's a two-way situation. Even just avoiding the
distraction of noisy motorbikes passing outside could well be reason
enough to soundproof the meeting hall.