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Post-modernism (was Re: Post-evangelicalism)
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kevin donnelly
May 21, 2001, 9:21:51 AM5/21/01
to
In article <3A15D58E...@removethis.central.susx.ac.uk>, David
Anderson <ea...@central.susx.ac.uk> writes
>Richard Emblem wrote:
>>
>> In article <m3aeayl...@redeemed.org.uk>, Paul Dean <Pa...@redeemed.org.uk>
>> writes:
>>
>> >Post-modernism certainly considers
>> >itself better than, and looks down upon, modernism.
>>
>> What exactly is meant by post-modernism and modernism?
>
>Nothing exactly is meant. The terms are confused for a number of
>reasons.
>Modernity, in the social sciences, refers to the creation of a
>bureaucratic state government, capitalist free enterprise in a market
>economy where most participants are not self-sufficient, the breakdown
>of traditional communities, the use of technological control of nature,
>the separation of public and private realms, the subjugation of
>'primitive' societies by more 'advanced' societies, etc.
>
>Modernism in philosophy refers to the ideologies that back this up: the
>belief in the self-sufficient individual as the basis of society[1], the
>belief that the self-sufficient man makes up all his beliefs for himself
>rather than getting them from society, the belief that perception just
>is seeing what is in front of us and that it doesn't need to be learnt,
>a belief in a strict separation between the subject and the object, a
>strict separation between man (sic) and nature, a belief in instrumental
>rationality and disengagement as the privileged method of solving
>problems, a belief in progress, etc.
>
>The fundamental modernist myth is that once upon a time man was in
>bondage to oppressive government and superstitious beliefs, but now man
>has opened his eyes and started to think for himself and has seen how
>the world really is.
>
>Now post-modernism is what happens when people realise that some or all
>of the above assumptions are wrong. I.e. all perception involves
>interpretation and needs to be learnt, or individuals are never
>self-sufficient, etc. Marx, Darwin and Freud were among the first to
>argue that what modernist societies took to be natural was in fact
>arbitrary, but the first true post-modernist was Nietzsche.
>
>Just to complicate things, modernism in cultural language, such as
>literature, music and the arts, is the response to the breakdown of
>modernism in the first sense. That is Eliot's Waste Land is the
>response to the realisation that poetic metre and form were cultural
>arbitrary constructs. Stravinsky made that realisation in music;
>Picasso in painting.
>
>Painting is probably the best illustration of the change. In modernity
>(first sense), the eighteenth century and early nineteenth century,
>people thought that painting just represented the world as it really
>is. The impressionists pointed out that the painters of the early
>nineteenth century had in fact been painting not what they saw, but what
>their culture taught them to see. Picasso and other modernist artists
>(second sense) realised that in fact that was always true.
>
>Post-modernism in the arts is basically the generation after the great
>modernists, Proust, Eliot, Joyce, Kafka, Picasso, Stravinsky, et al,
>wondering what to do now.
>
>David Anderson
>
>[1] As symbolised by the belief of Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau that men
>(sic) originally lived as hermits and only came together into society to
>further mutual self-interests of some kind.
>
A very helpful review. I'm told that Francis Fukuyama in The End of
History takes the view that the modern United States represents that
fulfilment of classless society which Marx advocated. Sorry I cannot
quote the page: the colleague who sent me the quote was convulsed with
laughter at the time.
KD
--
kevin donnelly
Anderson <ea...@central.susx.ac.uk> writes
>Richard Emblem wrote:
>>
>> In article <m3aeayl...@redeemed.org.uk>, Paul Dean <Pa...@redeemed.org.uk>
>> writes:
>>
>> >Post-modernism certainly considers
>> >itself better than, and looks down upon, modernism.
>>
>> What exactly is meant by post-modernism and modernism?
>
>Nothing exactly is meant. The terms are confused for a number of
>reasons.
>Modernity, in the social sciences, refers to the creation of a
>bureaucratic state government, capitalist free enterprise in a market
>economy where most participants are not self-sufficient, the breakdown
>of traditional communities, the use of technological control of nature,
>the separation of public and private realms, the subjugation of
>'primitive' societies by more 'advanced' societies, etc.
>
>Modernism in philosophy refers to the ideologies that back this up: the
>belief in the self-sufficient individual as the basis of society[1], the
>belief that the self-sufficient man makes up all his beliefs for himself
>rather than getting them from society, the belief that perception just
>is seeing what is in front of us and that it doesn't need to be learnt,
>a belief in a strict separation between the subject and the object, a
>strict separation between man (sic) and nature, a belief in instrumental
>rationality and disengagement as the privileged method of solving
>problems, a belief in progress, etc.
>
>The fundamental modernist myth is that once upon a time man was in
>bondage to oppressive government and superstitious beliefs, but now man
>has opened his eyes and started to think for himself and has seen how
>the world really is.
>
>Now post-modernism is what happens when people realise that some or all
>of the above assumptions are wrong. I.e. all perception involves
>interpretation and needs to be learnt, or individuals are never
>self-sufficient, etc. Marx, Darwin and Freud were among the first to
>argue that what modernist societies took to be natural was in fact
>arbitrary, but the first true post-modernist was Nietzsche.
>
>Just to complicate things, modernism in cultural language, such as
>literature, music and the arts, is the response to the breakdown of
>modernism in the first sense. That is Eliot's Waste Land is the
>response to the realisation that poetic metre and form were cultural
>arbitrary constructs. Stravinsky made that realisation in music;
>Picasso in painting.
>
>Painting is probably the best illustration of the change. In modernity
>(first sense), the eighteenth century and early nineteenth century,
>people thought that painting just represented the world as it really
>is. The impressionists pointed out that the painters of the early
>nineteenth century had in fact been painting not what they saw, but what
>their culture taught them to see. Picasso and other modernist artists
>(second sense) realised that in fact that was always true.
>
>Post-modernism in the arts is basically the generation after the great
>modernists, Proust, Eliot, Joyce, Kafka, Picasso, Stravinsky, et al,
>wondering what to do now.
>
>David Anderson
>
>[1] As symbolised by the belief of Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau that men
>(sic) originally lived as hermits and only came together into society to
>further mutual self-interests of some kind.
>
A very helpful review. I'm told that Francis Fukuyama in The End of
History takes the view that the modern United States represents that
fulfilment of classless society which Marx advocated. Sorry I cannot
quote the page: the colleague who sent me the quote was convulsed with
laughter at the time.
KD
--
kevin donnelly
Edward Green
May 21, 2001, 5:49:55 PM5/21/01
to
"kevin donnelly" <ke...@kevdon.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Jp1$x3AvZR...@kevdon.demon.co.uk...
> In article <3A15D58E...@removethis.central.susx.ac.uk>, David
> Anderson <ea...@central.susx.ac.uk> writes
news:Jp1$x3AvZR...@kevdon.demon.co.uk...
> In article <3A15D58E...@removethis.central.susx.ac.uk>, David
> Anderson <ea...@central.susx.ac.uk> writes
> A very helpful review.
Execelent. Can I put it somewhere on S3 or do you have a link to it?
Ed/
kevin donnelly
May 23, 2001, 9:31:09 AM5/23/01
to
In article <1lgO6.10990$yA4.2...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>,
Edward Green <eb.g...@ntlworld.com> writes
Edward Green <eb.g...@ntlworld.com> writes
Please explain this request to this novice!
KD
--
kevin donnelly
Robert Marshall
May 24, 2001, 1:39:55 AM5/24/01
to
S3 was an ancient programming language which was the design base for
the ICL 2900 series (no I think he means the Sacred 3 web site)
R
--
Hell and Purgatory were in West Berlin and Heaven on the other side of
the wall -- The Botticelli Divine Comedy drawings
David Anderson
May 25, 2001, 3:31:05 PM5/25/01
to
<delurk>
Thank you. I hope it was obvious that that's my own personal take on
the issue - not everyone would agree.
Yes - by all means put it somewhere. It was just a usenet post - I
haven't kept a copy myself.
</delurk>
David Anderson
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