Epping-Ongar line and Kelvedon Hatch bunker
alexander.keys1
> > the Kelvedon Hatch nuclear bunker, which was the Regional Government
> > Headquarters for the London Area during the Cold War.
>
> >http://www.secretnuclearbunker.com/
>
> > This was deemed surplus to requirements in 1993, after the end of the
> > Cold War, and is now an excellent museum. I went there in 2001, it was
> > like going back in time to the 1980's.
D7666
<alexander.ke...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > Apparently the Epping-Ongar line was kept open to provide transport to
> > > the Kelvedon Hatch nuclear bunker,
Isn't that just looking backwards for some kind of justifaction for
keeping the rail line and adding hype to promote todays museum
bunker ?
--
Nick
Roland Perry
<c8a13a94-11df-4d93...@g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>, at
15:07:52 on Sat, 21 Nov 2009, D7666 <d7...@hotmail.com> remarked:
>> > > Apparently the Epping-Ongar line was kept open to provide transport to
>> > > the Kelvedon Hatch nuclear bunker,
>
>Isn't that just looking backwards for some kind of justifaction for
>keeping the rail line and adding hype to promote todays museum
>bunker ?
The theory doesn't fit the scenario the bunker was built for (a
gradually escalating period of tension, during which the bunker would be
filled with staff and supplies, and eventually key people moved into
residence). Even with a high speed train you couldn't get from
Westminster to Ongar in 4 minutes!
The regular staff used to live at RAF North Weald (iirc) and were bussed
back and forth every day - a bit more secret than getting the train!
The museum is excellent, btw.
--
Roland Perry
James Heaton
"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:IDui5Wga...@perry.co.uk...
> The theory doesn't fit the scenario the bunker was built for (a
> gradually escalating period of tension, during which the bunker
would be
> filled with staff and supplies, and eventually key people moved into
> residence). Even with a high speed train you couldn't get from
> Westminster to Ongar in 4 minutes!
>
> The regular staff used to live at RAF North Weald (iirc) and were
bussed
> back and forth every day - a bit more secret than getting the train!
>
> The museum is excellent, btw.
I completely agree with Roland. I have been more than a couple of
times now, and found it fascinating - it probably helps to have a bit
of an interest in this era though. They have various period public
information films of the era, and even an old Panorama from the 80s,
with a very young Jeremy Paxman presenting.
Cafe and shop as well, and it doesn't matter if it pours with rain.
There's also something quite similar near Nantwich for anyone
interested in a more northerly direction, also good.
James
D7666
> > Westminster to Ongar in 4 minutes!
And which is also heading *into* the path of missiles / aircraft
assuming they were launched from the forward Soviet bases in the west
of the east if you see what I mean.
Mind you, there are 646 persons from Westminster who probably do
deserve to be placed in the path of incoming missiles occasionally.
--
Nick
Alex Potter
> Mind you, there are 646 persons from Westminster who probably do deserve
> to be placed in the path of incoming missiles occasionally.
What do you mean, occasionally? :)
--
Regards
Alex
D7666
> D7666 wrote on Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:18:54 -0800:
>
> > Mind you, there are 646 persons from Westminster who probably do deserve
> > to be placed in the path of incoming missiles occasionally.
>
> What do you mean, occasionally? :)
Depends.
Some of the 646 just once. Then allow missile to strike.
--
Nick
Alex Potter
Ah, that's OK then. Just so long as they're all included eventually :)
Bruce
wrote:
>> > residence). Even with a high speed train you couldn't get from
>> > Westminster to Ongar in 4 minutes!
>
>And which is also heading *into* the path of missiles / aircraft
>assuming they were launched from the forward Soviet bases in the west
>of the east if you see what I mean.
The Kelvedon bunker was for regional administration of southern East
Anglia in the event of nuclear conflict. The central government
bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and Naphill, near High
Wycombe.
Halmyre
consulting.co.uk says...
> D7666 wrote on Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:18:54 -0800:
>
> > Mind you, there are 646 persons from Westminster who probably do deserve
> > to be placed in the path of incoming missiles occasionally.
>
> What do you mean, occasionally? :)
>
>
On an hourly basis.
--
Halmyre
This is the most powerful sigfile in the world and will probably blow your
head clean off.
charles
Bruce <docne...@gmail.com> wrote:
[Snip]
> The central government bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and
> Naphill, near High Wycombe.
er, no. The big one was at Corsham in Wiltshire
--
From KT24
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
Alistair Gunn
> D7666 wrote on Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:18:54 -0800:
> > Mind you, there are 646 persons from Westminster who probably do deserve
> > to be placed in the path of incoming missiles occasionally.
> What do you mean, occasionally? :)
Sometimes we need to place them in the path of incoming bullets, bombs
and/or crossbow bolts?
--
These opinions might not even be mine ...
Let alone connected with my employer ...
Graeme
charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <8oevg5l6nljcioq3q...@4ax.com>,
> Bruce <docne...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [Snip]
>
> > The central government bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and
> > Naphill, near High Wycombe.
>
> er, no. The big one was at Corsham in Wiltshire
>
Northwood was, and is, the Royal Navy bunker, Naphill is the RAF. My father
was stationed at the latter in the winter of 62-63. We lived about 5 miles
away and many times the snow was so bad he had to walk home. Not fun after a
night shift!
--
Graeme Wall
This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Andy Elms
> In article <8oevg5l6nljcioq3qvisqcck69hm9p8...@4ax.com>,
> Bruce <docnews2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [Snip]
>
> > The central government bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and
> > Naphill, near High Wycombe.
>
> er, no. The big one was at Corsham in Wiltshire
No bunkers there. All tender engines...
AE
Is there a Str*t*g*c R*s*rv* equivalent of Godwin's Law?
charles
charles <cha...@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <8oevg5l6nljcioq3q...@4ax.com>,
> Bruce <docne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [Snip]
> > The central government bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and
> > Naphill, near High Wycombe.
> er, no. The big one was at Corsham in Wiltshire
further to my own posting, then ones you mention are Northwood - Royal
Navy; Naphill - RAF.
The Real Doctor
> In article <8oevg5l6nljcioq3qvisqcck69hm9p8...@4ax.com>,
>
> [Snip]
>
> > The central government bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and
> > Naphill, near High Wycombe.
>
> er, no. The big one was at Corsham in Wiltshire
Perhaps Tony was not a sufficiently senior civil servant to be told
where the Important People would be going. "B Ark" material, as it
were.
Ian
Chris Tolley
Surely that's being kept in the "D" Ark.
(mine's the coat with the faded University scarf.)
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p12598544.html
(67 012 at Winsford, 17 Jul 2004)
Roland Perry
Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Bruce <docne...@gmail.com> remarked:
>The Kelvedon bunker was for regional administration of southern East
>Anglia in the event of nuclear conflict. The central government
>bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and Naphill, near High
>Wycombe.
The Ongar bunker was where the Prime Minister was going to be located,
and would broadcast to the nation etc.
--
Roland Perry
Brian Watson
I have a copy somewhere of the leaflet put out by "Spies For Peace" in the
1960s.
I listed all the RSGs (Regional Seats Of Government then built or under
construction) with phone numbers.
--
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."
www.imagebus.co.uk/shop
Graeme
"Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
> Bruce wrote:
> > On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 13:18:54 -0800 (PST), D7666 <d7...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>> residence). Even with a high speed train you couldn't get from
> >>>> Westminster to Ongar in 4 minutes!
> >>
> >> And which is also heading *into* the path of missiles / aircraft
> >> assuming they were launched from the forward Soviet bases in the west
> >> of the east if you see what I mean.
> >
> >
> > The Kelvedon bunker was for regional administration of southern East
> > Anglia in the event of nuclear conflict. The central government
> > bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and Naphill, near High
> > Wycombe.
>
> I have a copy somewhere of the leaflet put out by "Spies For Peace" in the
> 1960s.
Apparently something of a rarity these days.
>
> I listed all the RSGs (Regional Seats Of Government then built or under
> construction) with phone numbers.
>
Repeated in Duncan Campbell's War Plan UK in 1982. Though without the phone
numbers.
Kelvedon Hatch was not an RSG but a ROTOR[1] station originally. East Anglia
would have been administered from RSG4 in Cambridge (Brooklands Avenue).
For those interested in such things, visit <www.subbrit.org.uk>. They've
also got a section on closed railway stations.
[1] Code name for the RAF's radar and coamnd & communications bunkers. KH
waSector operations Centre.
David Hansen
<rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote this:-
>>The Kelvedon bunker was for regional administration of southern East
>>Anglia in the event of nuclear conflict. The central government
>>bunkers were/are at Northwood, Middlesex and Naphill, near High
>>Wycombe.
>
>The Ongar bunker was where the Prime Minister was going to be located,
>and would broadcast to the nation etc.
Plans changed from time to time over the decades. The plans of the
1950s did not survive intact to the 1960s, let alone later. As they
changed so the planned functions of various buildings changed. That
is partly what is behind the occasional change of name. IIRC RSGs
were the name in the 1960s or 70s, but this was changed later.
To take one example, at one time there was to be a large central
government issuing many instructions to regions. Later on it was
realised that was most unlikely to work and the regions were to be
essentially independent, anything they got from any surviving
central government was a bonus rather than something to expect.
A few people did know that they had an allocated place in these
buildings, some of the senior people and the (generally lowly)
maintenance people. They were fine people as they had this knowledge
and had to live with their duty in an emergency being to abandon
friends and family for a hole. Some of the lowly admin staff didn't
know, it would have been a surprise to them.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/ukpga_20000023_en_8#pt3-pb3-l1g54
Roland Perry
Fri, 27 Nov 2009, David Hansen <SENDdavi...@spidacom.co.uk>
remarked:
>A few people did know that they had an allocated place in these
>buildings, some of the senior people and the (generally lowly)
>maintenance people. They were fine people as they had this knowledge
>and had to live with their duty in an emergency being to abandon
>friends and family for a hole.
One of the lessons one learns from visiting the bunker at Ongar is that
they were just as worried about people breaking out, as breaking in.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
27 Nov 2009, Graeme <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>Kelvedon Hatch was not an RSG but a ROTOR[1] station originally.
Indeed, but later in its life they converted it to a "proper" bunker,
filling in the centre (which was originally a large galleried operations
room) to make a three storey accommodation bunker. This was because
ubiquitous radar had made the regional communications centres redundant.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
It went through about 4 changes of function before being finally
decommissioned, details are on the sub-britannica site.
Roland Perry
Nov 2009, Graeme <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> >Kelvedon Hatch was not an RSG but a ROTOR[1] station originally.
>>
>> Indeed, but later in its life they converted it to a "proper" bunker,
>> filling in the centre (which was originally a large galleried operations
>> room) to make a three storey accommodation bunker. This was because
>> ubiquitous radar had made the regional communications centres redundant.
>
>It went through about 4 changes of function before being finally
>decommissioned, details are on the sub-britannica site.
The bunker's own site has a better description:
"The Bunker had three main lives. Initially as an RAF ROTOR
Station and latterly a Regional Government Headquarters, with a
brief period in the 1960's as a civil defence centre."
The change from ROTOR to RGH required a substantial re-build as
described above. Not only did the rebuild add a significant number of
extra square feet (by filling in the "gallery hole" in the middle) but
it also transformed it from bomb-proof operations room to somewhere
people would live and work for long periods. It's well worth a visit if
you want to appreciate the details.
One of the things that only the wikipedia site manages to explain well
is that although it's a 3-storey "underground" bunker, it's actually
built into the side of a hill, and the 1950's bungalow is at the lowest
level, at the foot of the hill [1]. On top of the hill is a very
distinctive radio mast, but not the "rocket-shaped" one the other side
of the Brentwood-Ongar road (see the wikipedia page). I think the
problem is that the area outside the bungalow is so wooded that you
can't easily get a good view of the bungalow with the hill behind it,
although there's a hint of it immediately to the right of the bungalow
in the subbrit photo.
Before they could open it to the public, they had to build an additional
"fire exit" at the top level, which emerges halfway up the hill to the
right of the bungalow.
[1] And behind the bungalow is a long tunnel into the foot of the hill,
the tunnel being one of the main defences from human attack.
--
Roland Perry
Graeme
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <535edc050%ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk>, at 20:12:27 on Fri, 27
> Nov 2009, Graeme <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
> >> >Kelvedon Hatch was not an RSG but a ROTOR[1] station originally.
> >>
> >> Indeed, but later in its life they converted it to a "proper" bunker,
> >> filling in the centre (which was originally a large galleried operations
> >> room) to make a three storey accommodation bunker. This was because
> >> ubiquitous radar had made the regional communications centres redundant.
> >
> >It went through about 4 changes of function before being finally
> >decommissioned, details are on the sub-britannica site.
>
> The bunker's own site has a better description:
>
> "The Bunker had three main lives. Initially as an RAF ROTOR
> Station and latterly a Regional Government Headquarters, with a
> brief period in the 1960's as a civil defence centre."
>
Which is why I gave a link to the sub-britannica site as it gives much the
same information and info on othe RSGs as well.
Roland Perry
28 Nov 2009, Graeme <ra...@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> The bunker's own site has a better description:
>>
>> "The Bunker had three main lives. Initially as an RAF ROTOR
>> Station and latterly a Regional Government Headquarters, with a
>> brief period in the 1960's as a civil defence centre."
>
>Which is why I gave a link to the sub-britannica site as it gives much the
>same information and info on othe RSGs as well.
In this case the minimal information they give about the Kelvedon bunker
isn't terribly helpful, indeed it rather confuses the issue :(
For example, while they talk about it being "deep", it's actually inside
a hill that sticks up from the surrounding landscape. So pedantically
while there's a lot of earth on top of the bunker, that's the top
section of the hill. This lack of clarity is probably why one of the
other sites incorrectly states the bunker is *under* the bungalow.
ps. I'm not trying to find fault just for the sake of it, but you
originally said the subbrit site documented four changes of function,
but it only has two listed, and therefore one major change. From
ROTOR/Operations centre to Home Office Bunker (changing name from SRC to
SRH to RGH). That change, from a hardened operations centre (with staff
bussed in and out every day) to what people would recognise as a clone
of "Hitler's bunker" [1] required a significant amount of rebuilding and
a complete change of role from ATC centre with one of those big maps
with people pushing things around with long poles, to a place to hide
administrators and communications facilities from the bombs.
[1] <Godwin!>
--
Roland Perry
Graeme
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
Rotor - SRC - SRH - RGH - Museum are the changes I was referring to. The
middle three were all subtly different in their requirements. OK the museum
bit is slightly irrelevant to its primary functions.
Never mind Godwin, Hitler's bunker is a reasonable analogy.
Brian Watson
> In message <gvadnY2NovFbZpLW...@bt.com>
> "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
>> I have a copy somewhere of the leaflet put out by "Spies For Peace"
>> in the 1960s.
>
> Apparently something of a rarity these days.
>
>>
>> I listed all the RSGs (Regional Seats Of Government then built or
>> under construction) with phone numbers.
>>
>
> Repeated in Duncan Campbell's War Plan UK in 1982. Though without
> the phone numbers.
Perhaps I should look it out, update the dialling codes, and see if there's
anyone on the end of the line these days?
Graeme
"Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
> Graeme wrote:
> > In message <gvadnY2NovFbZpLW...@bt.com>
> > "Brian Watson" <Br...@imagebus.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >> I have a copy somewhere of the leaflet put out by "Spies For Peace"
> >> in the 1960s.
> >
> > Apparently something of a rarity these days.
> >
> >>
> >> I listed all the RSGs (Regional Seats Of Government then built or
> >> under construction) with phone numbers.
> >>
> >
> > Repeated in Duncan Campbell's War Plan UK in 1982. Though without
> > the phone numbers.
>
> Perhaps I should look it out, update the dialling codes, and see if there's
> anyone on the end of the line these days?
>
If anyone answers ask them if they've seen the Strateg,.;l;ld;dax <no
carrier>