sailing under british flag (HELP)
Cushie
I think the re license is done by someone like DVLA, register via 'Small
ships' register if your lenders do not object.
G.L. (bonne chance)
Ronald Raygun
It is likely the lenders will want a marine mortgage so that
the loan can be secured against the vessel. SSR is good enough
to give you "flag" status, but as it's not a title register,
it won't be good enough for recording a mortgage. You'd
need full Part 1 registration which is expensive to set up.
Over £200 in fees for first registration and recording the
mortgage. Plus official tonnage survey fee. And of course
you need strong proof of title. Evidence of German registration
having been in force may be enough, together with the bill of
sale, but it's better to have a full paper trail of all
bills of sale from completion.
www.mcga.gov.uk/flag has info on registration, but it's
seriously broken and seems only to work with M$IE.
From what you write, it should be possible to register the
ship as British, but only because your brother lives in
the UK and pays UK taxes. If you don't, then you would have
to be the minority shareholder. Your brother would need to
own 33 or more of the 64 shares, and you 31 or fewer.
There may be French laws to comply with if the boat is to
be based there for an extended period.
Dave C
You must have a current tonnage certificate - contact the YBDSA
(www.YBDSA.co.uk). They can recommend a surveyor & they issue the tonnage
certificate to the MCA, who deal with registration. This cost us about
£120.00.
We also had to provided documentary proof that the boat had been
de-registered in America. For this we had to supply an original certificate
from the US coastguard. Also originals or certified copies of the last 3
Bills of Sale.
You need to contact :
MCA Registry of Shipping and Seamen
Anchor House
Cheviot Close
Parc Ty Glas
Llanishen
CARDIFF
CF34 5JA
http://www.mcga.gov.uk/directory/RSS.htm
Cheers
Dave
Dave C
Graham Frankland
news:LEL4a.10182$py3.89...@news-text.cableinet.net...
> From what you write, it should be possible to register the
> ship as British, but only because your brother lives in
> the UK and pays UK taxes. If you don't, then you would have
> to be the minority shareholder. Your brother would need to
> own 33 or more of the 64 shares, and you 31 or fewer.
>
Only Br Citizens can register on SSR.
Graham.
Ronald Raygun
Not true.
Both Part 1 and Part 3 allow ownership by EU/EEA nationals who
are "established" in the UK.
Ric
"Ronald Raygun" <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote in message
>
> Both Part 1 and Part 3 allow ownership by EU/EEA nationals who
> are "established" in the UK.
>
British-registered but French owned and driven stinkboats in the Med, I
suspect the rule is quite lax. I'm not sure why so many French stinkboats
have British flags - I'd guess it is because it avoids having to take the
French driving test. Can't be for tax reasons, as I have not come across any
Brit-flagged but French-owned sailing vessels.
Graham Frankland
Govt!
The statute about nationality is still on the books (yet to be changed) but
a test case said this was "discriminatory" against nationals of other EC
states so we now have to let them our flag as well as be over here.
Graham.
Dave C
je ne suis q'un pauvre rosbief!)
Ric
"Graham Frankland" <gdf...@nospam.globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message are
"established" in the UK.
> >
> Sorry, you are right, it's another case of the European Court overruling
our
> Govt!
> The statute about nationality is still on the books (yet to be changed)
but
> a test case said this was "discriminatory" against nationals of other EC
> states so we now have to let them our flag as well as be over here.
>
Graham Frankland
news:b32rib$i1s$1...@news-reader10.wanadoo.fr...
Graham.
Gcrothers
"MarcB" <mar...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:n4r65v4ne40btsffh...@4ax.com...
> hello
>
> My brother and I are buying a sailing ship.
> the boat is actually in the south of france
You say sailing ship...
How big....??
If it is a commercial vessel then be aware that there may be differences in
the safety requirements under different flags..
garry
Ronald Raygun
> but not to expatriate Brit.s!
Not true.
"A ship is entitled to be registered on Part 1 of the register if the
majority interest (ie, 33 shares) is owned by persons qualified to be
owners of British ships, namely:
(a) British citizens or persons who are nationals of an EEA country
other than the UK and are established (within the meaning of Article
52 of the EEC Treaty) in the UK;
[(b)-(h) omitted]"
It is clear (I'm not sure why, but I think the "other than the UK"
phrase helps to clinch it) that the "and" in paragraph (a) binds
more strongly than the "or". This means that the "are established"
bit does not apply to British citizens, only to non-UK EEA nationals.
This means that expatriate Brits *are* qualified.
Not sure about ex-patriots though.
Ronald Raygun
> On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 22:55:15 GMT, Ronald Raygun
> <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>>
>>"A ship is entitled to be registered on Part 1 of the register if the
>>majority interest (ie, 33 shares) is owned by persons qualified to be
>>owners of British ships, namely:
>>
>>(a) British citizens or persons who are nationals of an EEA country
>>other than the UK and are established (within the meaning of Article
>>52 of the EEC Treaty) in the UK;
>
> an expatriate isn't established in UK. He is "established" in the
> country that he is domiciled in.
Agreed.
>>[(b)-(h) omitted]"
>>
>>It is clear (I'm not sure why, but I think the "other than the UK"
>>phrase helps to clinch it) that the "and" in paragraph (a) binds
>>more strongly than the "or". This means that the "are established"
>>bit does not apply to British citizens, only to non-UK EEA nationals.
>
> It's very weird wording. Why didn't they just list the cases instead
> of trying to do it in one sentence.
They did. Cases (a) to (h). I'll wager that the original version
of case (a) will just have been "British citizens", and was later
extended to include a restricted subset of our Euro-friends.
I'm pretty sure that before all this EEC stuff Brits would have
been entitled to fly the flag no matter what their circumstances,
and it seems highly improbable that their right should have been
restricted. Add to this the fact that "established" is itself a
concept introduced by the EEC treaty, and the conclusion should
be inevitable that the intention is to permit Euro-friends to
register their ships here only if they're established here and
not otherwise, without imposing the same restriction on UK
nationals.
>>This means
>
> could mean :-)
must mean ;-]
>>that expatriate Brits *are* qualified.
>
> I drew the opposite conclusion. It's ambiguous without a bit of
> punctuation. :-)
It is indeed potentially ambiguous. It is a sad fact that
English legalese makes a habit of omitting punctuation. I can
only assume that the reason for this is that punctuation can be
easily overlooked when copying, and that the wording itself
should be unambiguous enough not to require help from the
punctuation. I'm not sure they always succeed.
> "other than UK" is superfluous it adds nothing but confusion.
It certainly does that. But consider that "British citizens or"
would also be superfluous if the intended interpretation were to
apply the "established" criterion to both alternatives.
Ronald Raygun
> I can't find the copy of the form that I completed but never posted. I
> am pretty sure that there was a foot note that spelt out, who they
> really meant to count as established.
Might you mean the pink A3-size "Declaration of Eligibility",
form MSF4704/REV1297 (Formerly Ros 15)?
One part of it contains the ambiguous definition of entitlement
I quoted earlier. I've now looked at another bit of it, which
seems to resolve the argument in my favour:
--begins
Section 6 (a): for applications to register on Part I of the Register:
I/we further declare that:
* the ship is not fishing for profit;
* to the best of my/our knowledge and belief, a majority interest is
owned by persons qualified to be owners of British ships, and the ship
is otherwise entitled to eb registered on Part I of the Register,
* any Nationals of an EEA country other than the UK, who are represented
in the majority interest are established (within the meaning of Article
52 of the EEC Treaty) in the UK;
--ends
The last bullet-point clarifies that an explicit declaration of "being
established" is made only for non-UK nationals.
Your humble servant, etc
Jimbo
>I can't find the SSR form on the MCGA site.
So it's not just me then.....
Where can you get the form as it does not appear to be available
online ?
James.
Jimbo
By sheer coincidence a friend just emailed this to me. Email me if you
need a copy.
Ronald Raygun
>>I rest my case :-(
>
> case reopened when I discovered
>
> http://www.mcga.gov.uk/flag/needtoknow/eligibility/#
>
> "Eligibility to register a ship in the UK needs to be considered at
> the outset.
>
> For [Part I and IV] applications .. may be made by:
>
> British citizens
>
> Citizens of an EU member state exercising their rights under articles
> 48 or 52 of the EU Treaty in the UK;
> British Dependant Territories citizens;
>
> British Overseas citizens
> Companies incorporated in one of the EEA countries;
> Companies incorporated in any British overseas possession which have
> their principal place of business in the UK or those possessions; and
> European Economic Interest Groupings.
>
> Fishing vessels (Part II) allows applications by:
> [snip]
>
> Small Ships Register (Part III) allows registration by:
>
> British citizens;
> Citizens of an EU member state exercising their rights under articles
> 48 or 52 of the EU Treaty in the UK;
> British Dependent Territories Citizens
> British Overseas Citizens
> Persons who under the British Nationality Act 1981 are British
> subjects
> Persons who under the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order 1986 are
> British Nationals (overseas); and
> Commonwealth citizens not falling within those paragraphs
>
> When none of the qualified owners are resident in the UK, a
> representative person must be appointed who may be either:
>
> An individual resident in the UK, or
> A Company incorporated in one of the EEA countries with a place of
> business in the UK.
Well this last bit would seem to mean that you'd be OK on Part 3
(which is SSR) provided you can nominate a representative. All
you need is a friend who can receive communication on your
behalf.
Funny, though, that the form you quote elsewhere does not
corroborate this. *It* does not appear to admit the possibility
of using a rep for Part 3, which kind of suggests that you
would have to go for the expensive Part 1 option.
The question is unresolved.