Surveyor - Clyde area
Tony of Judicious
Any recommendations for the Clyde area, preferably somebody who is used to
looking at traditional boats.
Ronald Raygun
I use Jim McIlraith (surveyone.co.uk).
We anchored next to J on 21st July, but by the time I was going to say
hello you'd gone off exploring ashore. It was only a lunch stop for
us and we carried on up to the head of Loch Duich by the Five Sisters
of Kintail.
Dennis Pogson
You could try Survey One at Renfrew, tel 0141 886 5210, or Paul Jeffes at
Ardrossan, tel 01475 689100. Both are good at insurance surveys.
Dennis.
Tony of Judicious
>
> We anchored next to J on 21st July, but by the time I was going to say
> hello you'd gone off exploring ashore. It was only a lunch stop for
> us and we carried on up to the head of Loch Duich by the Five Sisters
> of Kintail.
Ob Totaig, if I remember correctly. First time I had been there. Snug
little place with some really good mud, had to use the windlass to break
out the anchor. Might be a bit squally if the wind got up though.
Excellent mussels on the rocks.
Ronald Raygun
> Ronald Raygun wrote:
>>
>> We anchored next to J on 21st July, ...
>> and we carried on up to the head of Loch Duich by the Five Sisters
>> of Kintail.
>
> Ob Totaig, if I remember correctly.
Indeed, and from that angle the big tourist attraction across the way
doesn't look like on the shortbread tins at all.
Ian
wrote:
> It looks as if J's insurers might require a survey this winter
>
> Any recommendations for the Clyde area, preferably somebody who is used to
> looking at traditional boats.
Ian Nicolson, 01436 84 2224. Very good, very helpful, very practical
and sailed the atlantic in a norwegian lifeboat!
Ian
Ian
The very chap. He has been there, done that and had the T-shirt blown
off his back in a gale.
Ian
Davie sadler34
> Tony of Judicious wrote:
>> It looks as if J's insurers might require a survey this winter
>>
>> Any recommendations for the Clyde area, preferably somebody who is
>> used to looking at traditional boats.
Tony
Coutts Caledonian Marine Services surveyed Beez Neez ( Wintered next to J
last year) for insurance last year at Ardrossan. Chap called John Hamilton
on 01592 873740 or 07713 158146.
Found him to be excellent and very reasonable compared to other quotes I
obtained. Email me for further info if required.
Davie
Ian
> I have some of his books. He must be near or past retirement?
I've done a quick google. His company, A Mylne and Co, seems to have
been bought by a Fife company and to be based there now (http://
www.mylne.com/). However, I did find him in a list of surveyors as
"Ian Nicolson and Partners" and the phone number - which I gave here -
is the one I used to use for his home / office years ago.
From this, Watson, I deduce that he has semi-retired, selling the
company but keeping on some surveying work.
Ian
Ronald Raygun
Continuing in the spirit of detective work, in the sleeve notes to
"Surveying Small Craft" (published 1974) it says he went to university
after serving his apprenticeship at a shipyard, and then sailed a
ketch to Vancouver in the 50s. So he must have been at least in
his early/mid 20s in the 50s, but we don't know which part of the
50s, so to get a handle on his age we need a bit more information.
He still advertises in the magazine classifieds (using the phone
number you gave), and has been doing so regularly for many years.
I have a PBO from 1994 in which his advert lays claim to 44 years
experience. Accordingly his experience must have begun in 1950
unless he includes his training years. Let's say he was 22 in 1950,
that would make him 80 now.
By 1998 his adverts claim 45 years experience, and the current ones
rather modestly still only claim 46 years. Perhaps he's been doing
so little work in his semi-retirement that he's only been clocking up
two years' FTE experience since reaching normal retirement age. :-)
Ian
> He still advertises in the magazine classifieds (using the phone
> number you gave), and has been doing so regularly for many years.
> I have a PBO from 1994 in which his advert lays claim to 44 years
> experience. Accordingly his experience must have begun in 1950
> unless he includes his training years. Let's say he was 22 in 1950,
> that would make him 80 now.
I delivered his Sigma 33 from Portsmouth to Rosneath (after the
internationals) in 1991. I have put him at 60 maximum then, so I'll
guess mid-seventies now.
Ian
Dennis Pogson
Having had experience of Mr Nicholson, I think Tony should stick to one of
the other recommendations.
Dennis.
Ian
wrote:
> Ian wrote:
> > On 7 Aug, 10:21, Ronald Raygun <no.s...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
> >> He still advertises in the magazine classifieds (using the phone
> >> number you gave), and has been doing so regularly for many years.
> >> I have a PBO from 1994 in which his advert lays claim to 44 years
> >> experience. Accordingly his experience must have begun in 1950
> >> unless he includes his training years. Let's say he was 22 in 1950,
> >> that would make him 80 now.
>
> > I delivered his Sigma 33 from Portsmouth to Rosneath (after the
> > internationals) in 1991. I have put him at 60 maximum then, so I'll
> > guess mid-seventies now.
> Having had experience of Mr Nicholson, I think Tony should stick to one of
> the other recommendations.
Having had experience of him, I am very happy to recommend him.
Meticulous and also very practical. When my boat needed a repair
(typical Westerly - the keel was falling off) he drew up plans for me
to implement, calling in every day or to over the fortnight it took to
check progress so that he coulf finally certify that the repair was
properly done. His charge for the supervision as very low and saved me
a fortune in yardcosts.
Ian
Ronald Raygun
> Having had experience of Mr Nicholson, I think Tony should stick to one of
> the other recommendations.
Strong words! Come on, dish the dirt!
Dennis Pogson
No dirt really. Of the 2 or 3 yachts I have had surveyed on behalf of a
prospective purchaser, the 2 surveyed by Survey One both sold, and the one
surveyed by Ian Nicholson did not, thanks to his survey. The yacht in
question was one and the same, but the survey reports were as different as
chalk and cheese.
It is possible, you know, to write a survey report which does not condemn a
vessel to the scrapyard, whilst pointing out work which requires to be done.
The art is not in obfuscation of obvious faults, but in writing a report
which is factual and yet points out the vessel's good points in addition to
her bad points.
Jim McIlwraith is a past master of the art, and also knows how to generate
forward business for his company, which is why he is still in business after
many years.
Wrirting a bad survey report with a view to securing a lower price for your
client, a practice all-too-common in recent years, generates no on-going
business at all. Some surveyors have found this out to their cost.
Insurance reports as relatively easy to write up. You tell them what they
want to know and nothing more. What you tell the owner verbally may be
another matter.
Dennis.
Ian
wrote:
> No dirt really. Of the 2 or 3 yachts I have had surveyed on behalf of a
> prospective purchaser, the 2 surveyed by Survey One both sold, and the one
> surveyed by Ian Nicholson did not, thanks to his survey. The yacht in
> question was one and the same, but the survey reports were as different as
> chalk and cheese.
>
> It is possible, you know, to write a survey report which does not condemn a
> vessel to the scrapyard, whilst pointing out work which requires to be done.
> The art is not in obfuscation of obvious faults, but in writing a report
> which is factual and yet points out the vessel's good points in addition to
> her bad points.
The moral of which would appear to be never ever to use "Survey One"
if you are buying a boat ...
Ian
Dennis Pogson
Was'nt aware that Tony was buying a boat. I thought he was simply trying to
get an insurance survey carried out.
It would seem we all have our personal preferences, based on past
experience.
Dennis.
Ronald Raygun
> Ian wrote:
>> On 8 Aug, 09:28, "Dennis Pogson" <dennis_nospampog...@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> No dirt really. Of the 2 or 3 yachts I have had surveyed on behalf
>>> of a prospective purchaser, the 2 surveyed by Survey One both sold,
>>> and the one surveyed by Ian Nicholson did not, thanks to his survey.
>>> The yacht in question was one and the same, but the survey reports
>>> were as different as chalk and cheese.
>>>
>>> It is possible, you know, to write a survey report which does not
>>> condemn a vessel to the scrapyard, whilst pointing out work which
>>> requires to be done. The art is not in obfuscation of obvious
>>> faults, but in writing a report which is factual and yet points out
>>> the vessel's good points in addition to her bad points.
>>
>> The moral of which would appear to be never ever to use "Survey One"
>> if you are buying a boat ...
I'm not sure I concur.
Ronald Raygun
> Dennis Pogson wrote:
>
>> Ian wrote:
>>> On 8 Aug, 09:28, "Dennis Pogson" <dennis_nospampog...@ntlworld.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is possible, you know, to write a survey report which does not
>>>> condemn a vessel to the scrapyard, whilst pointing out work which
>>>> requires to be done. The art is not in obfuscation of obvious
>>>> faults, but in writing a report which is factual and yet points out
>>>> the vessel's good points in addition to her bad points.
>>>
>>> The moral of which would appear to be never ever to use "Survey One"
>>> if you are buying a boat ...
>
> I'm not sure I concur.
Oops, message sent itself before I was ready.
>> Was'nt aware that Tony was buying a boat. I thought he was simply trying
>> to get an insurance survey carried out.
That may be so, but it evades the issue raised. If I were a prospective
purchaser, I would want my surveyor to draw my attention to any problems
worth drawing attention to, and I would then have to decide whether those
problems were bad enough to make me walk away or whether I could live with
them or be happy to fix them. Sometimes they present a good excuse to
haggle.
Dennis Pogson
Walk away a few times and you will have no money to buy a boat! The easiest
sale of a yacht I ever made was when I, as the seller, had a survey done at
my expense prior to putting her on the market. The savings to the
prospective purchaser clinched the deal.
You may not agree with this, but I can assure you it worked for me!
Dennis.
Andy Champ
>
> Walk away a few times and you will have no money to buy a boat! The easiest
> sale of a yacht I ever made was when I, as the seller, had a survey done at
> my expense prior to putting her on the market. The savings to the
> prospective purchaser clinched the deal.
>
> You may not agree with this, but I can assure you it worked for me!
>
Being cynical, I'd wonder if the seller had had the boat surveyed
several times until he found one that missed the critical problem...
And of course as a buyer, if you haven't commissioned the survey how do
you sue the surveyor?
Andy
Ronald Raygun
> Being cynical, I'd wonder if the seller had had the boat surveyed
> several times until he found one that missed the critical problem...
> And of course as a buyer, if you haven't commissioned the survey how do
> you sue the surveyor?
You sue the seller instead, then the seller can sue the surveyor.
Andy Champ
Well seeing as I sail little wooden dinghies that I can crawl *all* over
and have little chance of missing something expensive I have little
experience in these matters.
But surely the seller says something like "Really? I didn't know about
that? Ah well, caveat emptor and all that..."
Andy
Dennis Pogson
"Andy Champ" <no....@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:l4mdnSvA7t_83gLV...@eclipse.net.uk...
As with houses, so with boats!
Dennis.
Ronald Raygun
Not quite. The seller, having commissioned a survey and made the report
available to the buyer is in effect representing the vessel's condition to
be as described in that report. If it later turns out that it isn't,
the buyer can sue for misrepresentation.
chrisR
"Ronald Raygun" <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote in
message
news:dWJnk.40497$E41....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
I don't think so
AFAIR Most surveys I have seen, expressly state the name of
the person who commissioned the survey and limit liability
(such as it is after all the caveats) to that person.
Chris
Ronald Raygun
> "Ronald Raygun" <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote
>> Andy Champ wrote:
>> >
>> > But surely the seller says something like "Really? I
>> > didn't know about
>> > that? Ah well, caveat emptor and all that..."
>>
>> Not quite. The seller, having commissioned a survey and
>> made the report
>> available to the buyer is in effect representing the
>> vessel's condition to
>> be as described in that report. If it later turns out
>> that it isn't,
>> the buyer can sue for misrepresentation.
>
> I don't think so
> AFAIR Most surveys I have seen, expressly state the name of
> the person who commissioned the survey and limit liability
> (such as it is after all the caveats) to that person.
Indeed they do, and in this case the surveyor would be liable
only to the seller who commissioned the survey.
I'm sorry if I failed to make entirely clear that in the above
scenario the buyer would be suing the seller (for misrepresenting
the condition of the vessel).
The seller in turn then sues the surveyor for the loss he
sustained as a result of relying on the content of the report.
Ronald Raygun
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:58:05 GMT, Ronald Raygun
> <no....@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>>
>>I'm sorry if I failed to make entirely clear that in the above
>>scenario the buyer would be suing the seller (for misrepresenting
>>the condition of the vessel).
>>
>>The seller in turn then sues the surveyor for the loss he
>>sustained as a result of relying on the content of the report.
>
> Yes consumer law works very well. My daughter recently got a refund of 30%
> of the price of a second hand car she bought, in addition to work done
> free under the guarantee, because the description in the advert was
> inaccurate. All this without any sort of an argument.
Was it a private sale or a dealer sale?
chrisR
"Martin" <m...@address.invalid> wrote in message
news:mph0a4ld6jo1a8i83...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:58:05 GMT, Ronald Raygun
<no....@localhost.localdomain>
> wrote:
>
a refund of 30% of
> the price of a second hand car she bought, in addition to
work done free under
> the guarantee, because the description in the advert was
inaccurate. All this
> without any sort of an argument.
>
> Martin
>
>
I hadn't realised that a professional could not make a
contract that had conditions limiting his liability. I can
understand the logic that the first party would be unable to
agree to limit the liability for a non-contracted third
party. I suppose all marine surveyors will just become
limited companies then? I did a google and got this as an
example of the sort of survey agreement to which I referred.
http://www.aadamson.co.uk/A%20Adamson%20Trading%20Conditions%20Issue%201.pdf
Chris
Ian
wrote:
> Was'nt aware that Tony was buying a boat. I thought he was simply trying to
> get an insurance survey carried out.
In that case, any old tyre-kicker will do. For personal use I'd always
prefer to have someone who told it as it is, rather than glossed over
any problems with honeyed words.
Ian
Ian
wrote:
> Ronald Raygun wrote:
> Walk away a few times and you will have no money to buy a boat! The easiest
> sale of a yacht I ever made was when I, as the seller, had a survey done at
> my expense prior to putting her on the market. The savings to the
> prospective purchaser clinched the deal.
>
> You may not agree with this, but I can assure you it worked for me!
It's a good idea, as long as the surveyor can be trusted not to write
a more favourable report than the boat deserves. Thanks to this thread
there is now one company whose report I would not trust.
Ian
Dennis Pogson
Insurance surveys tend to point out faults which might initiate a claim,
naturally, so a heads which wasn't working properly would hardly justify a
full page, if it was mentioned at all, whereas a survey report for a
potential purchaser could easily contain a half-page reference to same.
That is why insurance surveys, done by surveyors who know precisely what is
needed in the report, are usually cheaper to carry out.
Dennis.
chrisR
"Martin" <m...@address.invalid> wrote in message
faults that were trivial,
> but omitted to mention that the heads didn't work, and
that the prop
> shaft/engine alignment was poor and as a result the stern
gland leaked badly.
> --
>
> Martin
>
>
Surveyors often exclude mechanical items from their survey
don't they, along with gas, rigging etc and anything not
easily accessible or requiring a screw or bolt undone ?
Chris
Paul Cooper
wrote:
>
>I hadn't realised that a professional could not make a
>contract that had conditions limiting his liability. I can
>understand the logic that the first party would be unable to
>agree to limit the liability for a non-contracted third
>party. I suppose all marine surveyors will just become
>limited companies then? I did a google and got this as an
>example of the sort of survey agreement to which I referred.
>
>http://www.aadamson.co.uk/A%20Adamson%20Trading%20Conditions%20Issue%201.pdf
>
>Chris
>
It is very diificult indeed to limit your liability. I have been on
courses about liability as it relates to data products, and we were
advised that you CANNOT limit your liability in respect of death or
personal injury or any other common-law rights, and that any
disclaimer which attempts to do so will be red-lined by a judge. As an
incorrect survey could (potentially) lead you into a life-threatening
situation, I strongly suspect that an attempt to limit liability would
simply be thrown out. However, you can state what the product is
intended for - for example, in my case a factual statement of the
accuracy of the product allows the user to determine whether my
product is suitable for the purpose to which it is to be put.
IANAL and YMMV!
Paul
Chris
"Martin" <m...@address.invalid> wrote in message
> they do
> the survey, that is not an unfair contract.
> --
>
> Martin
>
>
Martin I am curious. Had the surveyor excluded the shaft engine alignment
and stern gland? I wuld think a fault resulting in a bad stern gland leak
is fundamental, not trivial and a serious omission.
Ian
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:07:01 +0100, "Chris" <nore...@nowhere.co.uk> wrote:
> > I wuld think a fault resulting in a bad stern gland leak
> >is fundamental, not trivial and a serious omission.
>
> and the SL400 leaking toilet gave me years of misery.
> Replacing it with a SL401 didn't make things any better.
Aw bless. Here we go again. My SL400 has been in, quite
satisfactorily, for ...thinks ... eighteen years now. Perhaps you need
to eat more fibre?
Ian
Ian
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:03:13 -0700 (PDT), Ian <ian.gro...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >Aw bless. Here we go again. My SL400 has been in, quite
> >satisfactorily, for ...thinks ... eighteen years now. Perhaps you need
> >to eat more fibre?
>
> I solved the problem long ago. It had nothing to do with my diet.
Oh dear. Nothing serious, I hope. A quick google suggests that
constipation can be caused by lead poisoning, gallstones, irritable
bowel syndrome or haemorrhoids (too much sitting in cold cockpits?).
Or pregnancy, but I don't expect it was that. Perhaps you just needed
to cultivate better bowel habits?
Anyway, I'm glad it's cleared up, whatever it was.
Ian
Ian
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:23:22 -0700 (PDT), Ian <ian.gro...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >Anyway, I'm glad it's cleared up, whatever it was.
>
> Maybe your anal retension is the reason you never had problems with your Sl 400
> in 18 years.
Have you tried drinking more Guinness?
Ian
chrisR
"Martin" <m...@address.invalid> wrote in message
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:23:22 -0700 (PDT), Ian
problems with your Sl 400
> in 18 years.
>
> Martin
>
>
So how did you solve it Martin or did you just buy a bucket?
Chris
Ian
> First the problem was nothing to do with it blocking. the problem was the thing
> wouldn't prime and it always leaked. I replaced all the vital bit so many times
> I lost count. I could do it in the dark. Like other owners of SL400/401s before
> me I finally binned it and bought a different make, for slightly more than a
> SL401 spares kit, 10 years ago and I have never had a boat toilet problem since.
Do you accept the possibility that some of us may have used SL40n's
for years without these problems?
Ian