Mirrors!
Sue
I have just acquired an old Mirror dinghy c.1967, and need lots of advice!
Does all the paint need to be removed from the hull prior to repainting, or
just the flaking patches? What's the best method for removing paint, I know
paint stripper is taboo, so blowtorch, scraper, sander? What's the best
paint to use? etc.........
Thanks to anyone who feels willing to reply :-)
Sue
Simple Simon
The use of a belt sander will do the job in the
most expeditious fashion but be careful to go
easy lest you leave a rough surface. The use of
sanding boards after rough sanding with a power,
belt sander will smooth out any irregularities.
As in any paint job 90 per cent of the work is
in preparing the surface. Use a two-part
polyurethane finish such as Imron. Spray is
best but serviceable results can be obtained
by brushing.
Good luck and fair winds to you, Sue.
"Sue" <s...@getalife.worldonline.co.uk> wrote in message news:3e348688$1...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
Simon Brooke
> Help!
> I have just acquired an old Mirror dinghy c.1967, and need lots of advice!
> Does all the paint need to be removed from the hull prior to repainting, or
> just the flaking patches?
Just the flaking patches, unless you find areas of plywood that look
dark, in which case explore back to find out if you've got rot or
delamination starting. If you have, it's easy enough to patch if you
catch it early. If it's really circa 67, this is quite an old boat, so
look carefully.
> What's the best method for removing paint, I know
> paint stripper is taboo, so blowtorch, scraper, sander?
Scraper and sandpaper. A random orbit sander is safe enough, don't use
a disk or belt sander as they are too fierce.
> What's the best
> paint to use? etc.........
Pink Metallic Primer on any bare wood, two coats of appropriate
undercoat, 1 coat real yacht enamel[1] (International would be my
choice). Yes, yacht enamel is a lot more expensive than houshold
paint; it' also a lot better and lasts a lot longer, and on a project
the size of a Mirror the amount you'd save by using cheaper paint is
trivial.
Have fun! I'm looking for an old mirror myself. They are excellent wee
boats.
[1] You can now buy tins of stuff in places like B&Q which are called
'yacht enamel' which, if you read the small print on the tin, say 'not
suitable for marine use'. Avoid this stuff!
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
X-no-archive: No, I'm not *that* naive.
stephen, yachtinguniverse
sander and marine enamel.
--
www.yachtinguniverse.com THE up-to-date, in-depth sailing news e-zine.
Mail Order & Online Chandlery + Marine Services Division.
Sponsoring www.jakejefferis.com Mini Transat 2003
Simon Brooke <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message
news:874r7ur...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
Classic & Vintage Racing Dinghy Assoc
Would advise against a beltsander....like trying to adjust your watch
with a crowbar.
Have a look at the cvrda site, and follow links to hints'n'tips. There
is a complete section on varnishinng and preparation.
When it looks beut....bring it down to one of our events
ed
Classic & Vintage Racing Dinghy Association
http://www.cvrda.org
"Simple Simon" <Pie...@Mincemeat.com> wrote in message news:<ODqdndknJoN...@terranova.net>...
Sue
What an excellent newsgroup this is, I posted the same sort of question on
the Mirror Class board several days ago and had not a single reply.
Sue
"stephen, yachtinguniverse" <stephen...@spamntlworld.com> wrote in
message news:Ts8Z9.849$eb.7...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
stephen, yachtinguniverse
be wary of for there constant winding up and trolling.
Good luck with the boat, please feel free to drop in again.
Cheers
-
www.yachtinguniverse.com THE up-to-date, in-depth sailing news e-zine.
Mail Order & Online Chandlery + Marine Services Division.
Sponsoring www.jakejefferis.com Mini Transat 2003
Sue <s...@getalife.worldonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3e353...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
Simon Brooke
> "Simple Simon" <Pie...@Mincemeat.com> wrote in message news:<ODqdndknJoN...@terranova.net>...
> > It would be best to remove all the old paint.
> >
> > The use of a belt sander will do the job in the
> > most expeditious fashion but be careful to go
> > easy lest you leave a rough surface. The use of
> > sanding boards after rough sanding with a power,
> > belt sander will smooth out any irregularities.
> >
> > As in any paint job 90 per cent of the work is
> > in preparing the surface. Use a two-part
> > polyurethane finish such as Imron. Spray is
> > best but serviceable results can be obtained
> > by brushing.
>
> Simon
>
> Would advise against a beltsander....like trying to adjust your watch
> with a crowbar.
'Simple Simon' is a well-known troll and misogynist on this group. He
presumably suggested the use of the belt sander in the hope that an
innocent would take his advice and do irrepairable damage to their
boat. That is one of the problems with Usenet; you can't tell the
motivations or knowledge of a contributor unless you follow a group
regularly and see the pattern of their posts.
Simple Simon
efficient method to remove old, cracked and
blistered paint. Granted, it is not too difficult to
remove more material than one intends but by
using the proper grit rating and taking it easy
excellent results can and will be obtained. The
good news is one can turn a week's worth of
sanding into a day's worth. Following up with
sanding boards covered with fine grit sandpaper
will take care of any irregularities or 'boo boos'.
The final smooth surface can be wet sanded to
make the paint when applied look like a mirror.
"Simon Brooke" <si...@jasmine.org.uk> wrote in message news:87u1fup...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
Iain Pendry
Use a two-part
> polyurethane finish such as Imron. Spray is
> best but serviceable results can be obtained
> by brushing.
Sue,
You also need to know that if you don't remove all of the paint, and then
use a two pack paint system, the two-pack may react with the old paint and
peel off. Simon is right to say that two pack produces the best, longest
lasting, best looking finish, but unless you remove everything original it
will probably fail. Hence the other suggestions of a single pack finish
which will not react to overpainting.
My other suggestion, and it's learnt through bitter experience - this time
of year, unless you have a warm (constantly above 12°C) dry garage, it's not
the best time to be varnishing. Beware of applying varnish in low
temperatures or damp conditions - it will absorb moisture from the air, and
either bloom (turn white) or fail to cure at all. You are left with a
sticky mess all over your boat which is nigh on impossible to shift. And
will cause you to curse the day you bought the boat. Again and again.....
If you are going to varnish during the winter or early springtime, warm the
varnish up first by leaving it in a bucket of warm water - this will make it
flow more, hence you'll get a thinner coat which will dry quicker and be
less susceptible to not curing properly....
Bear in mind also that when removing old paint, if there is any evidence of
moisture penetrating the timber, it's best to strip the paint and leave the
boat in a warm dry place for the timber to dry out before repainting. You'd
think all this was obvious but I managed to make a right mess of it the
first time I did it....
Hope this helps...
Iain
Iain Pendry
electric hot air paint stripper and a good scraper. You need to take a
reasonable amount of care, because if you are too agressive you can scorch
the wood, and possibly melt the resin that is taping the seals of your boat
together. But personally I would avoid sandpaper like the plague for
initial stripping of the hull, simply because it will take a hell of a long
time and there's better things to do with life. I would stay a long way
away from a belt sander, recipe for disaster in my opinion. In fact, I've
found that it's possible to put nasty scratches in with an orbital sander,
and then spend a long time getting them out again....you need bags of
patience to do this job properly.
You will, however, need vast quantities of sandpaper for sanding between
coats of varnish, can I recommend that you find an industrial type supplier,
rather than Do It All, because they'll be a fraction of the price and the
quality of the paper will be a lot better. As for sanding, as my dad says,
do it till you think it looks perfect, and then spend another couple of
hours sanding it......unless you'd rather sail than fettle.
As for paint, I've always been happy with the International range of yacht
paints, especially the Toplac range. I guess the stuff about using above
the waterline is only really relevant for yachts, for dinghys that spend the
vast majority of their life our of the water it's ideal, and looks very
smart. Have a look at http://www.yachtpaint.com/UK/ for more information.
On top of that, for some other, not completely impartial advice, have a look
at http://www.jennybrush.com/. This guy caused a furore by posting on the
NG about 18 months ago, but there is some useful basic information on the
website, although others may disagree. You just need to take the stuff
about the brushes he's trying to flog with a pinch of salt. Although they
may be fantastic - I've never used them.....
Regards
Iain
TonyB
"Iain Pendry" <iain@NO_spam.> wrote in message
news:3e358652$0$223$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...
> "Sue" <s...@getalife.worldonline.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:3e348688$1...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
> > Help!
> > I have just acquired an old Mirror dinghy c.1967, and need lots of
advice!
> > Does all the paint need to be removed from the hull prior to repainting,
> or
> > just the flaking patches? What's the best method for removing paint, I
> know
> > paint stripper is taboo, so blowtorch, scraper, sander? What's the best
> > paint to use? etc.........
> > Thanks to anyone who feels willing to reply :-)
> > Sue
Depends on the sort of finish you need. I had an old Mirror and did a quick
sand followed by two coats of household paint. It lasted barely a season. On
the other hand I spent a whole season wasting time by stripping off all the
paint from an old Lysander, priming, repainting etc. It looked good and
lasted but the boat's age & condition didn't warrant it really.
I think I got it right with the Enterprise - sand off the rough bits,
flaking paint etc then paint straight on with good quality yacht enamel.
Don't paint on wet wood at all until it's dry. I think on old wood you can
paint straight onto the wood if it's previously been painted provided it's
dry, although many will disagree. the Enterprise has now done 5 seasons with
minimal sanding & painting over each year.
I'd rather sail than paint!!
TonyB
Andy Champ
Sue,
I'd go with a hot air gun and a palette knife to get it off. It isn't
hot enough to damage wood, it helps to dry any damp patches,
Andy Champ
Sue,
go with a hot air gun and a large palette knife. It's not hot enough to
damage the wood, the heat helps to dry any damp patches, and it's most
effective on poor paint (which you will undoubtedly have!). Be careful
on the glass/polyester stich-'n'-glue joins as it will soften the
polyester. (It recovers as it cools - but this doesn't help if it's on
the floor!)
A belt sander is a recipe for going straight through the bottom. A disk
sander will leave nasty lumps and bumps.
When you have all the loose paint off you may decide to take it all off.
If you do consider using an epoxy coating before painting. If you
don't take all the paint off use pink primer. It won't last as long but....
Prime, then sand with 600 grade wet and dry. Repeat until boredom.
Then switch to undercoat, sanding between coats, then topcoat. Don't
sand after the last coat. You can't sand too much. The more time you
are prepared to put in to preparation the better the result. OTOH if
it's just for knocking about in - a couple of coats each of primer,
undercoat, and topcoat will keep the water out.
I've always used International 101 paint until recently; my new boat is
epoxied from the ground up, and topcoated with two-pot Blakes. I think
the international gives a better finish, but the two-pot lasts longer.
Rgds
Andy.
--
My real mail is Andy dot Champ at Tesco dot Net
John Perry
dinghy. I would agree with the use of hot air blower to take off most of the
paint, with care not to overheat the fibreglass tapes. If the tapes are not
well bonded to the plywood now would be a good time to replace them,
preferably using epoxy resin. Indeed, if you really are going to take the
whole boat down to bare wood (which you may not need to) I wonder wether it
would be worth epoxy coating rather than conventional paint finish.
Nowerdays this is the useual course if one is building a plywood boat as
new. The epoxy then needs to be protected from sunlight, either by a painted
topcoat or a clear coating such as SP Ultravar. But there is a limit to how
much time and money you may want to spend on the project.
Mirror dinghy is a very nice little boat, I like fairly long distance
cruising in small boats and years ago I sailed about half the length of the
channel in a Mirror dinghy (in calm weather). It has masses of bouyancy,
oars for when the wind drops and at least a few places to put things.
John
Skyva
> It would be best to remove all the old paint.
> "Sue" <s...@getalife.worldonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:3e348688$1...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
> > Help!
Hi,
I've done this job!
Remove all the fittings.
Remove any old paint or varnish, an orbital sander with a rough paper will
do it. Dont use a belt sander, it will leave deep grooves if not in very
skilled hands. A sanding block will get to the parts the sander does not
reach. A chisel can be useful.
Don't use 2 pack varnish, the Mirror ply is too flexible to take it. Fill
all Use a good quality marine varnish or paint, International is readily
available. 3 to 4 coats is a minimum. The International Paints website is
helpful re primers, with varnish a thinned first coat is OK.
Good luck
Keith
Skyva
"Andy Champ" <andy....@read.my.sig> wrote in message
news:3E35A9A4...@read.my.sig...
> Sue wrote:
> > Help!
> > I have just acquired an old Mirror dinghy c.1967, and need lots of
advice!
> > Does all the paint need to be removed from the hull prior to repainting,
or
Sue,
Do not use a belt sander. Agree with all said above, except - 2 pot paint /
varnish is really only suitable for a very stiff dinghy. In my experience
an old Mirror is too flexible for 2 pot finishes, except maybe on the
rudder, centreboard and spars. The coating will crack and admit water.
Bear in mind dinghies spend most of their time on land in sun and frost, all
damaging to paints.
Use a good (marine) paint / varnish such as International; their website may
be useful.
BTW if you need a rudder / cboard I have them going cheap. (2 pot varnish!)
Keith
Lin...@nomail.com
>Would advise against a beltsander....like trying to adjust your watch
>with a crowbar.
It's like a lot of things - if you're comfortable with it and know how
to use one, it does a good job. I've done exactly that on my kids
Mirror with an industrial Makita but I doubt I have the strength
necessary nowadays.
As far as the paint job is concerned may I speak out against a
specific recommendation to use 2 pot. On a Mirror, which has a pretty
flexible hull, I'd prefer the additional give of a bog standard non
polyurethane paint system. Two pot is especially brittle and anyway
it's not recommended to put it over a conventional finish which is
probably what's already on there.
Lindsay
Chas
<s...@getalife.worldonline.co.uk> writes
My fourpence worth is the following:
If the paint is sound it doesn't need to be removed, just sand off the
gloss. If there is large scale flaking you have to cut back all the
flaky stuff. Just check that whatever you intend to paint over is well
adherent to the wood. A belt sander is far too vicious - don't try it on
thin plywood. A blow torch is useful but rather old technology with a
risk of blackening wood however an electric hot air gun and scraper are
invaluable especially where paint is thick. Avoid its use in glued tape
areas. A rotary orbital sander - the type with velcro fastened circular
discs is a good if messy tool for getting paint off - with the right
choice of paper grade and some care you can feather off the edges of the
damaged bit. Wear a face mask - dust ++.
The trouble with an old boat is that once you start removing just a bit
of paint you tend to keep going .. and going until you have a total
repaint on your hands.
On old boats like yours you may often find old repairs that have been
done with polyester car body filler. Best to remove any of that and
replace with epoxy - West system or equivalent. Similarly, use epoxy for
any joins that are opening up.
If you get down to bare wood I would suggest applying epoxy primer -
such as SP Eposeal - 2 pack and very runny so it soaks in well. Once you
have a few (quick drying) coats of this applied the wood is better
protected than it ever has been and ordinary one pack enamel systems
from International or Blakes on top of that should do fine and are
easier to work with than 2 pack paint. As those paints are high quality
and designed for brushing you should be able to get a perfectly good
enough finish for an old boat using a brush but the small very fine
paint pads with red handles that you can buy in places like B&Q can
deliver great results with slightly thinned paint.
Chas
ps : The Cherub website has some info and links on restoring old plywood
boats.
<http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub/>
--
Mick
(ranch paint), and applied them using a gloss paint roller followed by
immediate "tipping off", ie very lightly removing the surface dimples
immediately. The dinghy looks great after one season, and I dont mind a
repaint later on if required. I used exterior woodstain for the interior,
applied with a brush. I suspect this goes against the rest of the advice,
but it works for me, and everyone who sees the dinghy makes favourable
comments.
I purposely went for the cheapest option as an experiment, which is working
so far.
Photos available if needed.
Iain Hibbert
> As for paint, I've always been happy with the International
> range of yacht paints, especially the Toplac range.
I'm not sure, but the Toplac range might be superseded now.
I had a tin of 'International Brightside Polyurathane' last year
when I was painting around the cockpit and upper deck of my yacht,
and I was really impressed with the way it went on with a normal
brush - it skinned over and tightened right up drawing all the
brush marks right out. I used cheap 50p brushes (no cleaning)
and its glossy and smooth. I had another type of International
paint (cheap in the sale) for another job, and it was nothing
like as good.
two part paints are 'better' in that they do last longer, but if
its a dinghy, chances are that it will get dinked and if you can
just keep the tin handy for quick touch ups thats much easier :)
iain
Tee
Many of the 'houshold paints' are slightly porous. This allows any
moisture in the wood to evaporate over time. Though a good quality for
homes this is absolutely unusable for boats. When a boat tis in the
water the water pressure mat force water towards the wood instead of
the other way around. I am sure you can imagine what the result will
be.
Boat paints are 100% waterproof, that is why we need to make sure our
wood is absolutely dry before we put paint or epoxy on. Because boat
paints are not porous any moisture left in the wood can't get out and
will start a rotting process.
This is especially true for epoxy varnish and a little scratch may be
very harmfull. That is why I use 150 grams woven glass fiber in
combination with epoxy varnish. This light glass fibre cloth will be
invisible after a second layer of epoxy varnish but it is much harder
to get deep scratches that would expose the bear wood.
You may save a little money but it isn't worth the time spend sanding
and re-painting or the risc of wood rot. When you add up all costs of
sandpaper, brushes, etc, etc. (not to mention your time and sweat) the
price difference between a good quality home paint and yacht paint
seams near nothing.
Chris Knibbs
says...
> Iain Pendry <iain@no_spam.> wrote:
> > As for paint, I've always been happy with the International
> > range of yacht paints, especially the Toplac range.
>
> I'm not sure, but the Toplac range might be superseded now.
>
> I had a tin of 'International Brightside Polyurathane' last year
> when I was painting around the cockpit and upper deck of my yacht,
I have to say I agree... I painted Albania's bottom with
International BrightsidePU ( oh yes and inside now I think of it) and
both the finish and hardness was exceptional. Single coat inside - in a
rather snazzy blue. Perhaps a bit more pricey than some alternatives -
but I reckon its going to last for some time.
Chris floaty thing
Andy Champ
>
> Do not use a belt sander. Agree with all said above, except - 2 pot
> paint / varnish is really only suitable for a very stiff dinghy. In
> my experience an old Mirror is too flexible for 2 pot finishes,
> except maybe on the rudder, centreboard and spars. The coating will
> crack and admit water. Bear in mind dinghies spend most of their time
> on land in sun and frost, all damaging to paints.
>
Andy
Meindert Sprang
news:jk0e3v49qeo8n159g...@4ax.com...
> Many of the 'houshold paints' are slightly porous. This allows any
> moisture in the wood to evaporate over time. Though a good quality for
> homes this is absolutely unusable for boats. When a boat tis in the
> water the water pressure mat force water towards the wood instead of
> the other way around. I am sure you can imagine what the result will
> be.
>
> Boat paints are 100% waterproof, that is why we need to make sure our
> wood is absolutely dry before we put paint or epoxy on.
That is not true. Even two part PU varnish is definately not waterproof. You
can use it on the bottom of a dry sailed boat but it will not stand constant
submersion. After a day or 3 blisters will form. Only epoxy-based coats are
near-100% waterproof.
Meindert
Skyva
"Andy Champ" <andy....@read.my.sig> wrote in message
> Skyva wrote:
> >
> > my experience an old Mirror is too flexible for 2 pot finishes,
> > except maybe on the rudder, centreboard and spars. The coating will
> > crack and admit water. Bear in mind dinghies spend most of their time
> > on land in sun and frost, all damaging to paints.
> >
> Have you actually tried both paints on one boat? (I never have)
Andy,
I have not risked overcoating one pot with two pot, for fear of poor
adhesion. I would guess that one pot over two pot would be OK, as long as
the surface is suitably rubbed down. Painting is enough effort without
doing it twice.
Though I must say that the last time my Merlin was painted and varnished I
had it done by Alan Jackson, cost a fortune but made the boat (built in
1976) look good as new. He used Veneziani 2 pot.
Keith
Andy Champ
>>Have you actually tried both paints on one boat? (I never have)
>
>
> Andy,
>
> I have not risked overcoating one pot with two pot, for fear of poor
> adhesion. I would guess that one pot over two pot would be OK, as long as
> the surface is suitably rubbed down. Painting is enough effort without
> doing it twice.
> Though I must say that the last time my Merlin was painted and varnished I
> had it done by Alan Jackson, cost a fortune but made the boat (built in
> 1976) look good as new. He used Veneziani 2 pot.
>
> Keith
>
>
this has already been mentioned, and I wouldn't mix them. I meant
sequentially - my old soft-bottom used to crack the single pot paint,
and I never tried two-potting it. Although I did strip the bottom to
bare wood a couple of times to try to sort it out. (over 15 years BTW)
richar...@btinternet.com
<mhsp...@NOcustomSPAMware.nl> wrote:
Great stuff folks,. I also have a mirror but signs of rot in places .
Best way to repair?
Thanks
Rich
Tee
wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:56:26 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
><mhsp...@NOcustomSPAMware.nl> wrote:
>Great stuff folks,. I also have a mirror but signs of rot in places .
>Best way to repair?
>Thanks
>Rich
If it is really rot there is only one solution; replace the wood.
If it is only black staining, remove old varnish, bleech it out then
sand and varnish again.
When painting, just make sure it is thorowly dry. Small spots could
perhaps be repaired by cutting out the roten area and filling it with
filler then paint it over. (Can't be done with varnish though).
Filler on wood may be a problem over time due to different thermal
characteristics between wood and (thick patches of) filler. Not sure,
perhaps someone else could commetnt on that?
Best thing always is to replace the wood.
Ian Sandell
<andy....@read.my.sig> wrote:
>
>Sue,
>go with a hot air gun and a large palette knife. It's not hot enough to
>damage the wood, the heat helps to dry any damp patches, and it's most
>effective on poor paint (which you will undoubtedly have!). Be careful
>on the glass/polyester stich-'n'-glue joins as it will soften the
>polyester. (It recovers as it cools - but this doesn't help if it's on
>the floor!)
My reference would a hot air gun, but they are hot enought to damage
wood if you are careless. Also, are you sure that the polyester
recovers? I suspect that there is permanant damage if you get it too
hot.
>
>A belt sander is a recipe for going straight through the bottom. A disk
>sander will leave nasty lumps and bumps.
But a random orbit sander will do a good job. if used with care.
Ian
Ian Sandell
>
>Boat paints are 100% waterproof,
Really? Then one coat will be a perfect anti-osmosis treatment. You
could make a fortune with that.
Ian
Simon Brooke
> On Tue, 28 Jan 2003 23:56:26 +0100, "Meindert Sprang"
> <mhsp...@NOcustomSPAMware.nl> wrote:
> Great stuff folks,. I also have a mirror but signs of rot in places .
> Best way to repair?
Cut out a rectangular area containing the rot - all the rot, don't
leave any, cut back into clean dry wood. Chamfer the edge of the hole
so that you have a feathered edge - either inside or outside - at
least four times as wide as the ply is thick, more is better. Cut a
piece of new ply as big as the feathered area, and feather it's edges
so that it's a neat fit. Epoxy it in place. Use a bit of cotton fibre
in the epoxy to improve the gab-filling properties, although you
shouldn't have much of a gap - mix to 'mayonaise' consistency. Because
of the curvature of the hull you will have difficulty holding it in
place while the epoxy sets. Drill holes through the feathering of both
patch and hull every (say) 100 mm, put some chunks of scrap wood into
little polythene bags (so they don't stick to the 'poxy) and grease
some ordinary wood screws lightly, and screw through the feathering
into the little blocks to hold everything firm while it sets.
When the epoxy has cured (24 hours), take out the screws, remove the
little blocks in the poly bags, and fill the screw holes with an epoxy
filler. Sand everything smooth, both inside and out. I would
personally then lay a piece of glassfibre cloth about 50mm all round
bigger than the patch on the inside and epoxy that on, to be sure, to
be sure. Apparently some glassfibre is sold with a size on it which
doesn't work well with epoxy, so check when you're buring it that it
is suitable with epoxy.
I've used most of the different brands of epoxy sold for boatbuilding
in Britain; in my opinion they're all good.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; It appears that /dev/null is a conforming XSL processor.
R.A. Loxley
> > Best way to repair?
>
> Cut out a rectangular area containing the rot - all the rot, don't
> leave any, cut back into clean dry wood. Chamfer the edge of the hole
> so that you have a feathered edge - either inside or outside - at
> least four times as wide as the ply is thick, more is better. Cut a
> piece of new ply as big as the feathered area, and feather it's edges
> so that it's a neat fit. Epoxy it in place.
Doing a decent scarf joint yourself is pretty tricky if you're a novice.
I'd also go for a longer join - something from 1:8 to 1:12 given the
thickness of Mirror ply. If you're not confident, I'd suggest sending it
to a boatbuilder/repairer to do the work.
If you do want to DIY, there are plenty of websites with details of how
to do scarf joints using routers or planers or hand-planes.
Rob
Jeffers
"Simple Simon" <Pie...@Mincemeat.com> wrote in message
> It just so happens that a belt sander is the most
> efficient method to remove old, cracked and
> blistered paint. Granted, it is not too difficult to
> remove more material than one intends but by
> using the proper grit rating and taking it easy
> excellent results can and will be obtained. The
> good news is one can turn a week's worth of
> sanding into a day's worth. Following up with
> sanding boards covered with fine grit sandpaper
> will take care of any irregularities or 'boo boos'.
> The final smooth surface can be wet sanded to
> make the paint when applied look like a mirror.
>
Have you ever seen a Mirror dinghy and do you know how thin the plywood is?
I certainly would NOT use a belt sander you would do damage to the hull very
easily.
Paul
Simple Simon
It's all in the technique.
If you are a heavy-handed klutz then, by all means,
avoid power tools. Why not just scrape away with
a fingernail file instead if you're so worried.
Men use power tools. Real men use powerful
power tools. It looks like you need to go powder
your nose, honey!
"Jeffers" <paul.je...@nospamntlworld.com> wrote in message news:kBx_9.622$tH...@newsfep1-gui.server.ntli.net...
Iain Hibbert
> Apparently some glassfibre is sold with a size on it which
> doesn't work well with epoxy, so check when you're buring it that it
> is suitable with epoxy.
In most of the Chandleries I've asked, they know nothing about this, but
from what I understand, the stuff with the coating is usually loosely
chopped matting that is used in boatbuilding rather than repair, if you
get the woven stuff (especially for such a small job) it is stronger and
thinner..
iain
Iain Pendry
news:ps9rg-...@ID-171367.user.dfncis.de...
Someone could write a book on boat repair based on the information in this
thread.....
Tee
wrote:
I did.
Andy Champ
>
> ...Use a bit of cotton fibre
> in the epoxy to improve the gab-filling properties, although you
> shouldn't have much of a gap - mix to 'mayonaise' consistency.
Why cotton (and not for example microballoons?)
Simon Brooke
> Simon Brooke wrote:
> > ...Use a bit of cotton fibre
>
> > in the epoxy to improve the gab-filling properties, although you
> > shouldn't have much of a gap - mix to 'mayonaise' consistency.
>
>
> Why cotton (and not for example microballoons?)
Prejudice.
I don't _really_ know what I'm doing with 'poxy, but colloidal silica,
microbaloons, etc, thicken the mix without adding any structural
properties. As I understand or at least imagine it, the fibres, even
though very short, help bind the 'poxy. Mind you, of course, the epoxy
is very strong and the cotton relatively weak so this is probably all
nonsense.
Thickness for thickness in my experience a cotton mix flows less than
a colloidal silica mix, which is useful.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Due to financial constraints, the light at the end of the tunnel
has been switched off.
Iain Hibbert
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>>
>> ...Use a bit of cotton fibre
>> in the epoxy to improve the gab-filling properties, although you
>> shouldn't have much of a gap - mix to 'mayonaise' consistency.
> Why cotton (and not for example microballoons?)
microballoons are very low density and easy to sand - good for
filling and fairing, but not very good for adhesion.
I think you would put colloidal silica (whatever that is) in as a
gap-filler in this case, it has better structural strength.
incidentally, somebody once told me that the West High Density filler
that sets like a rock does so because it mostly is rock - ground marble
in fact!
iain
Tee
wrote:
Just look what is printed on the package: colodial silica (that is
sand, or rock if you like. I am sure you know glass is made of sand.
It is just very fine milled or something, I don't know how it is made)
Meindert Sprang
> Simon Brooke wrote:
> >
> > ...Use a bit of cotton fibre
> > in the epoxy to improve the gab-filling properties, although you
> > shouldn't have much of a gap - mix to 'mayonaise' consistency.
>
> Why cotton (and not for example microballoons?)
Cotton gives a stronger epoxy when cured, due to the fibres. Microballoons
are only used to thicken the epoxy, to be used for fairing, not for
structural bonding. A microballoon-mix sands easier than with microfibres.
Meindert
Meindert Sprang
news:87smv8i...@gododdin.internal.jasmine.org.uk...
> Andy Champ <andy....@read.my.sig> writes:
>
> > Simon Brooke wrote:
> > > ...Use a bit of cotton fibre
> >
> > > in the epoxy to improve the gab-filling properties, although you
> > > shouldn't have much of a gap - mix to 'mayonaise' consistency.
> >
> >
> > Why cotton (and not for example microballoons?)
>
> Prejudice.
Nope. Read the info on www.westsystems.com
> I don't _really_ know what I'm doing with 'poxy, but colloidal silica,
> microbaloons, etc, thicken the mix without adding any structural
> properties. As I understand or at least imagine it, the fibres, even
> though very short, help bind the 'poxy. Mind you, of course, the epoxy
> is very strong and the cotton relatively weak so this is probably all
> nonsense.
No it isn't. The cotton is just cellulosis fibre, the same as wood. Or would
you call wood weak ;-)
> Thickness for thickness in my experience a cotton mix flows less than
> a colloidal silica mix, which is useful.
Indeed, with cotton it flows less and it is very hard to create a smooth
surface when spreading it. But cotton filler is not made for that purpose.
An epoxy-cotton mix has a similair 'structure' as wood, due to the cotton
(cellulosis) fibres.
Meindert
Iain Hibbert
> Just look what is printed on the package: colodial silica (that is
> sand, or rock if you like. I am sure you know glass is made of sand.
> It is just very fine milled or something, I don't know how it is made)
well ok, silica is probably some kind of glassy substance, but what is
colloidal?
iain
Simon Brooke
A colloid is a fluid with suspended material that does not precipitate
- e.g., milk. I presume colloidal silica is silica ground sufficiently
fine that it won't precipitate out of the mix.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; I'd rather live in sybar-space
Sandy Morton
Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote:
> Milk is
> suspension of small gloubules of fat in water -i.e. two imiscible
> liquids which do not separate.
When I was a milkman - many years ago - milk and cream naturally
separated. Unfortunately modern milk does not behave in the same manner.
--
A T (Sandy) Morton
on the Bicycle Island
In the Global Village
Michael Adamson
> When I was a milkman - many years ago - milk and cream naturally
> separated. Unfortunately modern milk does not behave in the same manner.
Depends where you get your milk. That delivered by roundsman in glass
bottles still separates. So call 'standardized' milk in plastic bottles
from the supermarket does not separate.
Any way back to topic. Make sure your Mirror is thoroughly dry before
coating or filling. Also whenever possible store in dry airy place. If
kept outside damp, cold winters plays havock with finish under boat
covers.
Chris Knibbs
says...
Caprice. I'm considering fibreglass taping all the chines and 'corners'
fixing it with epoxy, and then (possibly) epoxying the whole hull using
fine fibreglass mat. The question is.. do I need to use specialist tape
/ mat such as that sold by West systems - or is the stuff you get in DIY
/ Auto shops suitable? As you can tell - price is a major issue, but
then again its not a job I want to have to do a second time!
Chris floaty thing
--
Please dump 'THEDAMNSPAM' to reply.
J. Amgine Neilson
Chris Knibbs wrote:
> In article <200302031...@zetnet.co.uk>, adams...@zetnet.co.uk
> says...
> On a similar vein... I want to strengthen up the hull on an old ply
> Caprice. I'm considering fibreglass taping all the chines and 'corners'
> fixing it with epoxy, and then (possibly) epoxying the whole hull using
> fine fibreglass mat. The question is.. do I need to use specialist tape
> / mat such as that sold by West systems - or is the stuff you get in DIY
> / Auto shops suitable? As you can tell - price is a major issue, but
> then again its not a job I want to have to do a second time!
Glass is (generally) glass. But epoxy is not necessarily epoxy. Ask
people who do boat building/repairing/classes what a good basic epoxy
is. Curing time is an important issue. Where I'm at (middle of north
america) System3 is a much-less-expensive alternative to WEST, is less
brittle, more elastic/forgiving, and easier to work with imo. While it's
more than strong enough for my dinghy applications, it is not ultimately
as strong as WEST. Epoxy mixes have different characteristics to work
with different climates; too cool/damp and some will never cure, others
may have too short a pot life and have poor bond, still others are so
thinned they've little strength even if they do get a good bond. Find
out what works in your area first.
Realize any epoxy should probably be painted as epoxy is sensitive to
ultraviolet.
Amgine
Simon Brooke
> In article <200302031...@zetnet.co.uk>, adams...@zetnet.co.uk
> says...
> >
> On a similar vein... I want to strengthen up the hull on an old ply
> Caprice. I'm considering fibreglass taping all the chines and 'corners'
> fixing it with epoxy, and then (possibly) epoxying the whole hull using
> fine fibreglass mat. The question is.. do I need to use specialist tape
> / mat such as that sold by West systems - or is the stuff you get in DIY
> / Auto shops suitable? As you can tell - price is a major issue, but
> then again its not a job I want to have to do a second time!
Some glassfibre material is, apparently, sold with a 'size' (a binding
agent) which stops epoxy making a good bond. Allegedly this is only
mat (and that makes sense, since glass cloth should not need
size). Still, it's worth checking with the supplier.
Plywood with a glass/epoxy sheathing is *amazingly* tough and abrasion
resistant - almost a different material. Get your plywood extremely
clean and dry first, because epoxy will seal in any damp and rot will
happen quickly.
--
si...@jasmine.org.uk (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Our modern industrial economy takes a mountain covered with trees,
;; lakes, running streams and transforms it into a mountain of junk,
;; garbage, slime pits, and debris. -- Edward Abbey