Red Diesel
Dennis Pogson
owners will now have to sell their boats because of the new EC ruling on red
diesel, which comes into force on Jan 1.
The market is about to plummet, anybody care to sell me their 40-footer for
half price?
Or are we all being misled?
What happens to all the red diesel in stock in the marinas' tanks?
Dennis.
PS - Petrol engines are great! Much quieter and more powerful than these
stinky diesels!
Cerumen
"Dennis Pogson" <dennis_no...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Cd6kh.22840$493....@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
> According to this morning's Daily Mail, thousands of impoverished boat
> owners will now have to sell their boats because of the new EC ruling on
> red
> diesel, which comes into force on Jan 1.
>
> The market is about to plummet, anybody care to sell me their 40-footer
> for
> half price?
>
> Or are we all being misled?
>
> What happens to all the red diesel in stock in the marinas' tanks?
>
--
Chris
West Cork
Ireland
i...@atsandelldot.codot.uk
Ian
Tony of Judicious
> --
> Chris
> West Cork
>From RYA web site 26/12
"Neil Northmore, RYA Government Affairs Adviser reports:
"We met with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) officials this week
together with the British Marine Federation (BMF) to discuss the
Commission's decision and find out Government's initial thoughts on
timescales and process.
At this stage it is clear that the price will not go up on 1 January
2007. The reality is there will be a period of time in which boaters
will continue to benefit from the low duty rate, and the earliest this
can change is Summer 2007.
Changes can only be bought about through primary legislation i.e. the
Finance Bill and it is highly unlikely that they will be in a position
to do this in the next Finance Bill, which is due April 07.
To give a clear timescale is hard at this stage for Government as they
are currently planning how to take matters forward. It is clear that
further technical research into the implications of the change from low
duty red diesel is required, and there must be implementation planning
for the transitional period. It will also be ncessary for the
Government to conduct a public consultation at some stage next year.
The RYA is urging Government not to rush the decision and to exercise
all due diligence to ensure that new measures are reasonable.
Together with the BMF we are working closely with HMRC and will keep
you updated on any developments"."
Looks as if we can all fill our tanks for the summer.
Looks as if we c
Duncan Heenan
didn't know what was happening. they'd asked Customs, who said 'do nothing
and wait for an announcement in the New year'. They also rang the RYA who
said the same. Their supplier (BP I think) didn't know the answer either!
In the meantime they intend to sell it to all and sundry at the old price.
Dennis Pogson
This is clearly an issue for John Prescott, Minister Without Portfolio, to
handle.
Putting it in Mr Prescott's capable hands will ensure that we keep our red
diesel at least for this season, perhaps longer.
We shall also need a quango to be set up. Any bets on 2009?
Duncan Heenan
> This is clearly an issue for John Prescott, Minister Without Portfolio, to
> handle.
> Putting it in Mr Prescott's capable hands will ensure that we keep our red
> diesel at least for this season, perhaps longer.
>
> We shall also need a quango to be set up. Any bets on 2009?
>
be interested would he?
Tom
>
> I don't think Jaguar do a diesel version do they? So old two-shags
> wouldn't be interested would he?
Both X and S types have a diesel in their range
Tom
Nick
We need a government with the French approach - just kick the issue into
the long grass and do nothing. What is the chance of that?
Nick
Dennis Pogson
> for about a decade.
Perhaps their taxed diesel is cheaper than ours?
Eddie
That's about 69p/lit at current exchange rates.
Eddie
"Dennis Pogson" <dennis_no...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:r6zkh.24388$HV6....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
Cerumen
"Dennis Pogson" <dennis_no...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:r6zkh.24388$HV6....@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
It was cheaper than here last time I was there and here is a lot cheaper
than UK anyway, currently pump prices here are as low as ?1.00 and up to
about ?1.04 ; somewhere areound £0.75 a litre. Spain was even cheaper than
France.
Graham Frankland
"Cerumen" <notfo...@spam.net> wrote in message
news:emvrtt$hb0$2...@reader01.news.esat.net...
> West Cork
> Ireland
>
Road diesel is currently Euro 1.01 in Portugal but marinas there and Spain
were charging around 1.09 this summer. By the time marinas in UK have added
their extra margin I bet diesel will be £1/litre or more.
One problem we found in northern Spain this summer was obtaining road diesel
in some places as fishing harbours only had commercial diesel for the
fishing fleets so, visiting pleasure boat owners have to carry road diesel
in cans from the nearest garage - often some distance away.
I would guess it unlikely that small ports in out of the way locations here
will install an extra pump to cater for the few visiting yachts so, the same
problem may occur.
Graham.
Ian
Martin wrote:
> Only that the French don't have red diesel and haevn't had red diesel for about
> a decade.
Do they still have Gazole at filling stations?
Ian
Ronald Raygun
> I would guess it unlikely that small ports in out of the way locations
> here will install an extra pump to cater for the few visiting yachts so,
> the same problem may occur.
The Del Boy spirit is not dead, surely, and there will always be some
enterprising folk around here and there to do whatever it takes to
earn a bit of drinking money. True, installing a pump is expensive and
no doubt subject to all manner of red tape, but you don't need one, you
can invest in a few dozen army-surplus jerricans and stockpile road
diesel in the back of your van, then tout it to passing yachties.
Nick
> Do they still have Gazole at filling stations?
>
> Ian
>
with our 92 ppl. Presumably this is what is used in French
non-commercial boats.
I am unclear as to how commercial use will be defined. Presumably a
sailing school or other 'per berth' charter is commercial, whilst a
privately owned boat is not. How about whole boat charter - and does it
make a difference if the owner or charterer buys the fuel? Or if the
owner charges a per hour figure for use of the engine, as opposed to
replacement of fuel used. What if the status changes - private owner
instructs paying customers some weeks, sails with friends in between.
Does the tank have to be dipped and a payment made or clawback claimed
at each change? It will take more than 6 months to sort all this out!
Nick
Duncan Heenan
news:AIPkh.22218$k74....@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
I suspect also that all of a sudden there will be a lot of 1 boat Sunseeker
'charter companies' setting up in business - assuming they can still but red
diesel.
Ian
Ronald Raygun wrote:
> True, installing a pump is expensive and
> no doubt subject to all manner of red tape, but you don't need one, you
> can invest in a few dozen army-surplus jerricans and stockpile road
> diesel in the back of your van, then tout it to passing yachties.
Quite a few gliding clubs use small (2 - 3,000 litre) bowser trailers
for fuel. The trailers are not terribly expensive - see
http://www.mainltd.co.uk/fuel_bowsers.htm for an example - and would be
quite a straightforward way of supplying road fuel diesel to yachts
where there is a) a suitable quayside b) a garage nearby and c) a
modest demand.
I wouldn't have thought there would be any problem at all in marinas -
they'll just flush the red stuff out and change over to selling road
fuel. The problem will be with commercial harbours which see very low
sales to yachts, and I have sympathies for folk based in such places
(over future availability, not cost).
Ian
Nigel
> wouldn't be interested would he?
"two-shags" ? I thought he morphed into "Johnnie no jobs"
Ronald Raygun
I'm not convinced it is the case that a recreational charter business
would count as sufficiently "commercial" to qualify for being allowed
to use red diesel.
But even if it were, I suspect that mixed use would be awkward to police
(you would have to keep detailed logs of how much fuel was used for the
two purposes - private and commercial - and pay tax on the private part)
and would therefore perhaps even be disallowed. That would mean all
private use would have to "become" commercial, with the implication that
all your private use would have to be dressed up as chartering your boat
to yourself at the going rate (and paying income tax thereon).
That would almost certainly be uneconomic for most yachts, well, for all
but the thirstiest gin palaces at least. For instance, for a week's
sailing in an average yacht, you might have to charge yourself £800 and
hence pay £176 income tax (or even £320 if you're lucky enough to be a
higher rate taxpayer (and let's face it, if you can afford a posh charter
capable yacht, there's a good chance that you are)). You'd have to burn
an awful lot of fuel in that week to save £176 in fuel duty.
And that's before even considering how much it costs to equip, insure,
and regularly resurvey your boat to the standard at which it becomes
lawful to offer your vessel for charter (even though it be to yourself).
On the other hand, at least all the coding expenses (indeed *all* your
expenses - marina fees, repairs, maintenance, loan interest, insurance)
could be set against charter income for tax purposes, and so you may well
end up not having to pay any actual tax at all. But you *would* still
have to incur the coding expenses and the same argument applies - you'd
need to burn a lot of fuel to save more duty than what these otherwise
unnecessary expenses would set you back by.
There again, I suppose it occurs to many people that they could charter
their boat to help pay their boating bills, and the hassle and additional
expense of going through the coding exercise are a bar to that, and make
offering their boat for *occasional* charter uneconomic, so it would have
to be chartered more often just to break even (typically at least 3 weeks
per year). But having gone through the rigmarole anyway, any real charter
income, however little, becomes an instant bonus (provided you can abide
punters treating your pride and joy with disdain).
Ian
Nick wrote:
> Ian wrote:
> > Do they still have Gazole at filling stations?
> I think gazole is their road diesel, costing around 72.5 ppl compared
> with our 92 ppl. Presumably this is what is used in French
> non-commercial boats.
Thanks. I used to buy petrol at a station in Le Blanc (near Poitiers)
which sold both "diesel" and "gazole" so I wondered if they were
different. Looks as if it may just have been different labels. Mind
you, at least one of my local filling stations sells "gas oil". I've
never looked at it - is it red?
A quick look at wikipedia (which as always should be treated with
extreme caution) turns up:
"En France, il n'y a pas obligation d'injecter du gazole dans les
moteurs des engins agricoles ou de travaux publics. En général le
fioul domestique (FOD), cousin germain du gazole est utilisé à la
place."
which as far as I can tell means that they use something similar to our
28s heating oil for agricultural purposes. Not red - but is it less
taxed?
Ian
Duncan Heenan
You missed the very significant quote mars around 'charter companies'. Your
response is of course right, but assumes those doing so would abide by the
law. I am suggesting that less scrupulous people would create sham companies
simply 'used' for the purpose of buying cheap diesel. After all, spoof
paperwork is used by criminals in all other walks of life. Enforcement can
only be tiny and patchy as customs have plenty else to do, and there will be
chancers who are prepared to risk it. After all, there is almost no
enforcement of immigration controls over small craft in small ports, so who
is going to worry too much about checking paperwork for buying diesel 'on a
wet night in Aberystwyth'?
Tony of Judicious
Ian wrote:
>The problem will be with commercial harbours which see very low
> sales to yachts, and I have sympathies for folk based in such places
> (over future availability, not cost).
>
> Ian
Thanks Ian.
Graham Frankland
news:1167353746.8...@48g2000cwx.googlegroups.com...
Ian
>
Most countries have an equivalent to our red diesel for commercial boats and
agricultural & static plant purposes. We know of 2 boats who have had their
tanks dipped in France and have been fined for having red diesel in tanks or
cans because they couldn't produce receipts to prove they purchased it
legally in the UK.
I suspect the problem now will be that, according to Brussels, having red
diesel in a pleasure boat tank or spare cans from January onwards will
presumably be an offence everywhere so, people may well be open to being
charged duty and fines when visiting another EC state, regardless of having
proof they purchased it in the UK. How long before French Customs latch on
to this source of income?
Graham.