Water garden help (ambitious project)...
Tom
We're about to embark on an ambitious landscaping project for our
garden. It's still very much in the planning stages, but we find we're
in dire need of some basic information regarding moving water around.
In brief, the design involves two ponds, and water flowing between
them. The slope between the two ponds is about 1 in 14 (4ft drop over
56 feet). We'd like the water to flow from the upper pond, over a
small waterfall, through a small stream and in to the lower pond.
There are so many questions I have about this that I don't really
know where to start. I know that there'll be about 100 gallons in
motion at any one time which means I'll need a sump at the lower end
to handle the time between everything being stopped and everything
moving steadily.
What kind of water flow should I be looking at ? (How many litres
or gallons per hour ?).
Any construction hints and tips ? (for stream, waterfall and pond).
Any online resources I can look at ? (most of the one's I've found
are American).
Any other hints tips and things I should consider ?
Thanks,
Tom.
--
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Tom - t...@buena-vista.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.buena-vista.freeserve.co.uk
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---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Mr Normal
This sounds like a wonderful project. I hope your efforts are well rewarded.
I can only add some advice on the "stream" portion of your project.
As any stream is shallow, that you will find that a plastic / butyl liner
would be a poor solution. A liner needs plenty of water pressure to keep it
flat, which in itself protects the liner from splitting.
It really is best to use a concrete base of this part of the project, but do
make sure that you dig really deep foundations. I'd suggest that about 2 -
2.5ft would be Okay, considering the length of the stream. The concrete
should be reinforced due to the length of the run. Don't rely on just
chicken wire - that's only really good for holding the shape whilst the
concrete goes off. Use galvanised metal rods - 5-7mmm should be enough. Bind
them together with galvanised wire.
The flow across the stream is very important. You will probably want to put
stones on the bottom to make it look realistic. This can create interesting
problems.
If the flow is fast and the stones small, obviously you will wash them all
to the bottom. However, if the flow is too small, and the stones large, the
water will run between the stones, and you will loose the stream effect.
The trick is (as I think you have found) to have a raised edge at the end,
so that the stream is in effect a long pond, with an entrance and exit point
at both ends.... however, you will find that the effect is unsatisfying
unless you have a really good flow.
If I were you I'd look at _at least_ 1500 gal / hr, and if you can afford
the electricity and pum, get something more in the region of 2,200 gal / hr.
A stream only really works if water flow over the stones freely, and just
daming up the exit too much, just looses that effect.
So in some kind of summary....
a). Get the biggest pump that you can
b). Build a little section at the end of the stream, where you can raise and
lower a small piece of wood/slate, to increase or decrease the amount of
water held back in the stream (your sump idea sounds the same)
c). Make sure that you design the lower pond so that it cannot be pumped dry
in the event of a leak/blockage in the stream. (eg put the pump on a shelf
1/2 way up in the pond, so that it runs dry before the rest of the pond)
d). Have the pump at the bottom, pushing water up. Put the UV and biological
filter at the top , exiting by gravity into the pond.
e). Use concrete - always best in the long run. (seal it with proper pond
sealer ... NOT swimming pool paint!!!)
Hope this helps with some possible ideas. Best of luck
Tom <t...@buena-vista.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7i0mlk$kqa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Tom
"Mr Normal" <MrNo...@PlanetNormal.fr> wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>
> This sounds like a wonderful project. I hope your efforts are well
rewarded.
>
> I can only add some advice on the "stream" portion of your project.
Thanks for your *excellent* advice. It's certainly helped me put
a few things in perspective.
Regards,
Tom.
--
---------------------------------------
Tom - t...@buena-vista.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.buena-vista.freeserve.co.uk
---------------------------------------
Roy Denton
I read your reply to Tom with some interest, as I am about to create a water
feature with some similarities. Your post highlighted several factors I
wouldn't have thought about, and I wonder if you, or anyone else in URG, may
have some further advice for my project.
Here in the Pennines we are vertically challenged - or gifted if you look at
that way :-), and my site will have a fall of some ten feet in around six
horizontal feet. My intention is to pump water up to a pond about the size
of a domestic bath, outfalling over a small waterfall into a smaller pond
via a drop of two feet into an area of shallow gravel with plants to act as
a filter, then via another waterfall of around two feet into a small
*ravine*, falling steeply back to the bottom pond, which will also be the
size of a bath, and contain the pump.
Questions:
1. I already estimated I need around 1500 gph flow or better, but what
flow rating will I need on the pump, given that the head I need to create
will reduce the flow available at the pump outlet?
2. How can I make the ravine look realistic? I thought of piling flat
stones overlapping each other, forming a roughly horseshoe shape in plan,
stepping up to achieve the vertical dimension needed, and making planting
pockets for ferns, etc. as I go.
3. When the pump is switched off I guess little water will remain in the
ravine. Is there anything I need to bear in mind, comparable to your advice
to Tom to keep a raised lip at the end of the stream?
4. What would you recommend to waterproof the ravine? If concrete, how
would I form this at such a steep angle, and how would the rocks bed onto
it?
5. Is the lower pond large enough to accommodate the surge of water
needed to get the system flowing when the pump is started? My intention was
for this lower pond to resemble a little the livestock drinking troughs
still sometimes found in the lanes around here. If it's not big enough I
will need to rethink this bit of the strategy.
6. What have I forgotten / overlooked / not thought of?
I would be most grateful if anyone has any pointers. Thanks for listening -
and responding.
Roy Denton - Holmfirth - West Yorkshire
To urg is human - to garden devine.
Mr Normal wrote in message ...
>Hi Tom,
>
>This sounds like a wonderful project. I hope your efforts are well
rewarded.
>
>I can only add some advice on the "stream" portion of your project.
>
<message pruned to save your phone bill>
>
>So in some kind of summary....
>a). Get the biggest pump that you can
>b). Build a little section at the end of the stream, where you can raise
and
>lower a small piece of wood/slate, to increase or decrease the amount of
>water held back in the stream (your sump idea sounds the same)
>c). Make sure that you design the lower pond so that it cannot be pumped
dry
>in the event of a leak/blockage in the stream. (eg put the pump on a shelf
>1/2 way up in the pond, so that it runs dry before the rest of the pond)
>d). Have the pump at the bottom, pushing water up. Put the UV and
biological
>filter at the top , exiting by gravity into the pond.
>e). Use concrete - always best in the long run. (seal it with proper pond
>sealer ... NOT swimming pool paint!!!)
>
>Hope this helps with some possible ideas. Best of luck
>
>Tom <t...@buena-vista.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:7i0mlk$kqa$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> Hi,
>>
>> We're about to embark on an ambitious landscaping project for our
>> garden. It's still very much in the planning stages, but we find we're
>> in dire need of some basic information regarding moving water around.
>>
>> In brief, the design involves two ponds, and water flowing between
<< message pruned to save even more of your phone bill >>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Tom.
>> --
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Diane Epps
this one.
Diane
Roy Denton <rod...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7ikhka$rs8$1...@gxsn.com...
John Neale Baraclough
from "Roy Denton" <rod...@globalnet.co.uk> contains these words:
> Here in the Pennines we are vertically challenged - or gifted <snip>
> 2. How can I make the ravine look realistic? I thought of piling flat
> stones overlapping each other,
If you happen to be in Edinburgh,go to the Botanic gardens new
Chinese garden section and have a gander at the superb man-made
"ravine" with rushing torrent (all pumped) and pond below for some
inspiring ideas.The scale is beyond most of us but the use of rock is
terrific.They have also enlarged the mountain river effect with a dry
"river" of shale and pebble to one side which would look great for
anyone who really can't bring in water....
Janet
> To urg is human - to garden divine.
Nice one :-)
cormaic
<rod...@globalnet.co.uk> enriched all our lives with these words:
8<---S-N-I-P--->8
>Questions:
>
>1. I already estimated I need around 1500 gph flow or better, but what
>flow rating will I need on the pump, given that the head I need to create
>will reduce the flow available at the pump outlet?
How have you arrived at that figure? I'm not saying that it's
wrong, but I suspect that is going to be some pump, and probably noisy
too, although the crashing water will hide the worst of it.
The only comparison I can think of is a 75mm diaphragm pump,
such as we used at work to pump out trenches etc. Maximum otput is
about 5,000 gph, and I would think you'd need this magnitude of flow
to maintain the effect over such a drop.
We recently hired a 50mm submersible pump with an output of
220 litres/min (allegedly!!!), which is the equivalent of 48 gallons
per min or 2,800 gph, although I reckon it to be nearer 2,000 gph.
This pump has a max lift of about 10m, so would easily cope with your
planned structure.
>
>2. How can I make the ravine look realistic? I thought of piling flat
>stones overlapping each other, forming a roughly horseshoe shape in plan,
>stepping up to achieve the vertical dimension needed, and making planting
>pockets for ferns, etc. as I go.
Use big blocks of stone rather than small pieces of rock. Have
a look at a few natural ravines, and you'll notice that the bulk of
the surrounding rock is in big chunks, not small pieces. It's worth
getting a JCB in for a day to lift the blocks into place.
>
>3. When the pump is switched off I guess little water will remain in the
>ravine. Is there anything I need to bear in mind, comparable to your advice
>to Tom to keep a raised lip at the end of the stream?
As long as the 'bed' of the ravine is attractive, and not bare
liner or concrete, there should be no problem.
>
>4. What would you recommend to waterproof the ravine? If concrete, how
>would I form this at such a steep angle, and how would the rocks bed onto
>it?
The choice of finish will determine the berst structure to
build. If you opt for big blocks of a known size, it's pretty easy to
cast a concrete frame in-situ onto which the rocks can be bedded with
a waterproof mortar. If you opt for small bits and pieces, there's not
a lot of pre-planning that you can do, and it moight be best to work
in stages, casting one pool, letting the concrete set, and then
casting the next upstream bit.
>
>5. Is the lower pond large enough to accommodate the surge of water
>needed to get the system flowing when the pump is started? My intention was
>for this lower pond to resemble a little the livestock drinking troughs
>still sometimes found in the lanes around here. If it's not big enough I
>will need to rethink this bit of the strategy.
The pool will need to be fairly deep, to accomodate the
'plunge' of incoming water, and will need a 'lip' of at least 100mm to
keep the water in the sump-pool and not washing over the edges.
>
>6. What have I forgotten / overlooked / not thought of?
>
>I would be most grateful if anyone has any pointers. Thanks for listening -
>and responding.
I would strongly advise that you speak to a waterfall
specialist over a project such as this - I certainly would. This is
not a straight-forward simple waterfall, it's a cascade and needs to
be properly engineered, not built 'on spec'. If you've got a really
good landscape contractor nearby, they might be able to evaluate the
site and make better recommendations than I can over the 'net.
Good luck!
--
cormaic Garden - www.tmac.clara.co.uk/cormaic/garden/garden.htm
Culcheth Paving - www.tmac.clara.co.uk/paving2.htm
Cheshire URG web-ring - www.tmac.clara.co.uk/urgring/urgring1.htm
(allegedly) Last Updated on May 22nd 1999
cormaic CAN BE FOUND AT tmac.clara.co.uk
cormaic
<ep...@globalnet.co.uk> enriched all our lives with these words:
>Sounds like a supper project but I think you need Charlie Dimmock to help on
>this one.
I thought nAyd aMbettb had first refusal on any offers of
supper with Charlie D. ;~)
Roy Denton
John Neale Baraclough wrote in message <199905280...@zetnet.co.uk>...
>The message <7ikhka$rs8$1...@gxsn.com>
> from "Roy Denton" <rod...@globalnet.co.uk> contains these words:
>
>
>> Here in the Pennines we are vertically challenged - or gifted <snip>
>
>> stones overlapping each other,
>
>Chinese garden section and have a gander at the superb man-made
>"ravine" with rushing torrent
<message pruned a bit>
>--
> janet.a...@zetnet.co.uk
>
Thanks for your response - sorry for the delay in getting back - I've been
out looking for boulders ;-)
The Edinburgh ravine sounds wonderful. I tried their web site
(http://www.rbge.org.uk) which has a few photos, but none of the ravine. I
e-mailed their press office to ask if they have any photos they could send
by e- or brochures to post, but have had no reply yet.
Cheers
Roy Denton
Roy Denton
cormaic wrote in message <3762d2d0....@news.clara.net>...
>'Twas Thu, 27 May 1999 23:40:59 +0100, when "Roy Denton"
><rod...@globalnet.co.uk> enriched all our lives with these words:
>
>8<---S-N-I-P--->8
>
>>Questions:
>>
>>1. I already estimated I need around 1500 gph flow or better, but what
>>flow rating will I need on the pump, given that the head I need to create
>>will reduce the flow available at the pump outlet?
>
> How have you arrived at that figure? I'm not saying that it's
>wrong, but I suspect that is going to be some pump, and probably noisy
>too, although the crashing water will hide the worst of it.
I can't visualise what a gph figure means, but by 60 twice gives a flow of
about 0.4 gals per second, or a two gallon bucket being emptied in about 5
seconds, which I think will give the effect I want. Good point about the
noise - I'm hoping a submerged pump will be silenced by the water.
> The only comparison I can think of is a 75mm diaphragm pump,
>such as we used at work to pump out trenches etc. Maximum otput is
>about 5,000 gph, and I would think you'd need this magnitude of flow
>to maintain the effect over such a drop.
> We recently hired a 50mm submersible pump with an output of
>220 litres/min (allegedly!!!), which is the equivalent of 48 gallons
>per min or 2,800 gph, although I reckon it to be nearer 2,000 gph.
>This pump has a max lift of about 10m, so would easily cope with your
>planned structure.
The pump seems to be the most uncertain detail - once it's bought that's it.
I contacted L J Aquatics about the pumps they list on their site
(http://www.lja.clara.net) but their responses were unclear WRT the
relationship between max. rated flow and actual flow at required head. I
will look further for information from manufacturers.
>>
>>2. How can I make the ravine look realistic? I thought of piling flat
>>stones overlapping each other, forming a roughly horseshoe shape in plan,
>>stepping up to achieve the vertical dimension needed, and making planting
>>pockets for ferns, etc. as I go.
>
> Use big blocks of stone rather than small pieces of rock. Have
>a look at a few natural ravines, and you'll notice that the bulk of
>the surrounding rock is in big chunks, not small pieces. It's worth
>getting a JCB in for a day to lift the blocks into place.
I have some large blocks of stone, some of which I can only just manage to
move using leverage, rollers, etc. Afraid the budget doesn't run to JCBs,
so my friend and I will have to emulate the pyramid builders ;-) Pass the
garlic.
>>
<bits pruned and shredded>
>>
>>5. Is the lower pond large enough to accommodate the surge of water
>>needed to get the system flowing when the pump is started? My intention
was
>>for this lower pond to resemble a little the livestock drinking troughs
>>still sometimes found in the lanes around here. If it's not big enough I
>>will need to rethink this bit of the strategy.
>
> The pool will need to be fairly deep, to accomodate the
>'plunge' of incoming water, and will need a 'lip' of at least 100mm to
>keep the water in the sump-pool and not washing over the edges.
Good point - the final plunge pool will need a bit of trial and error, which
will be possible as it will be built above ground, inside dry stone walling,
founded on tarmac in a court yard area, and with an overflow discharging
into existing run-off drainage system. It would be possible to raise or
lower the rim or the overflow easily - I'll leave enough spare liner to do
this before final trim.
>>
>>6. What have I forgotten / overlooked / not thought of?
>>
>>I would be most grateful if anyone has any pointers. Thanks for
listening -
>>and responding.
>
> I would strongly advise that you speak to a waterfall
>specialist over a project such as this - I certainly would. This is
>not a straight-forward simple waterfall, it's a cascade and needs to
>be properly engineered, not built 'on spec'. If you've got a really
>good landscape contractor nearby, they might be able to evaluate the
>site and make better recommendations than I can over the 'net.
Nice thought, wish I had the spare cash. In view of which, I'll probably
need . . . . .
>
> Good luck!
>
>--
>cormaic Garden - www.tmac.clara.co.uk/cormaic/garden/garden.htm
>Culcheth Paving - www.tmac.clara.co.uk/paving2.htm
>Cheshire URG web-ring - www.tmac.clara.co.uk/urgring/urgring1.htm
>(allegedly) Last Updated on May 22nd 1999
>
>cormaic CAN BE FOUND AT tmac.clara.co.uk
>
Thanks for your input - hopefully the project now has more hope of success
:-)
Cheers
Roy Denton
Holmfirth, West Yorkshire