Fishy emotions
LEONROSK
Extract from New Scientist - 9 May 1998.
'Reptiles and mammals show signs of simple emotions, but amphibians and fish do
not, a physiologist told last week's Toward a Science of Consciousness meeting
in Arizona' The heart rate of a lizard or rat shoots up when a human handles
the animal gently, says Marcel Cabanac of Laval University in Quebec. In
contrast, bullfrogs failed to show any increase in heart rate after a minute of
handling, although their hearts do race during vigourous activity. Two other
frogs and four goldfish also did not display any such "emotional fever" either,
Cabanac found. He speculates that somewhere between amphibians and reptiles,
vertebrates crossed an evolutionary threshold that made these crude emotions
possible. "probably this is the most elementary level of consciousness", he
says.'
Tight lines - leon
SJ
If fish cannot suffer how come the local club insists on barbless
hooks, knotless nets, no livebaiting , unhooking mats, and a banning
of keepnets ?
Why is it acceptable to kill a roach as a livebait yet not kill a pike
by deliberate gut hooking ?
You can't have it both ways.
Dion L Heap
SJ wrote in message <355a49be...@news.source.co.uk>...
>
>If fish cannot suffer how come the local club insists on barbless
>hooks, knotless nets, no livebaiting , unhooking mats, and a banning
>of keepnets ?
I take it you are assuming that any damage caused to a fish must therefore
cause suffering! I think not, damage and suffering do not go hand in hand.
Does it not also occur to you that the use of barbless hooks, knotless nets,
unhooking mats are used by many anglers not because of rules but because
they choose to do so, the vast majority of anglers have a responsible
attitude to their pastime and their quarry.
Anglers care for the environment and if it was not for fishing our waterways
would certainly be in a poorer state than they are now.
>
>Why is it acceptable to kill a roach as a livebait yet not kill a pike
>by deliberate gut hooking ?
Is this an oxymoron? Personnaly I do not choose to fish for pike, if I did I
cannot say that I would use livebait, this is a matter of personnal choice
and does not mean that I will preach to others not to do so. On the other
side of the coin there are people who choose to throw pike up the bank on
capture, using the popular misconception that "the pike eat all the fish I
want to be catching" Again these are my opinions and I choose not to go
round forcing them down other peoples throats.
I also believe that if you are going to preach your personnal moral issues
to all and sundry you should make sure that you are well educated in your
issues as you will always at some point find yourself preaching to someone
who knows a damn site more than you do!
>
>You can't have it both ways.
>
Exactly!
Di...@slamspam.homesix.globalnet.co.uk
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Remove "slamspam" for reply.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A man who clothes himself in good deeds wears the best camouflage.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I.C.Q 10687088
Robert Chafer
Does this mean that the fish really aren't laughing at me? It must
just be paranoia.
Robert Chafer
LEONROSK
In article <355bd81...@news.demon.co.uk>, rob...@quaysoft.demon.co.uk
(Robert Chafer) writes:
>
>Does this mean that the fish really aren't laughing at me? It must
>just be paranoia.
>
Robert it's not the fish that are laughing - it's the bloody ducks.
p.s. I went trout fishing once (worm on a hook!), in Australia. Every time I
cast a bloody Kookuburra would burst out laughing in the tree behind me - I
ended up getting totally pissed off and went home fishless :-((
TL - leon
LEONROSK
In article <355a49be...@news.source.co.uk>, sh...@sjameson.source.co.uk
(SJ) writes:
>If fish cannot suffer how come the local club insists on barbless
>hooks, knotless nets, no livebaiting , unhooking mats, and a banning
>of keepnets ?
Because this helps in keeping the fish healthy.
>Why is it acceptable to kill a roach as a livebait yet not kill a pike
>by deliberate gut hooking ?
For the same reason that it is acceptable to keep non-indigenous cats, that
tear small birds and mammals to pieces, yet care for a bird with an injured
wing.
>You can't have it both ways.
Shaun, like most young people bought up on a diet of childrens' books written
about animals as though they were people, you have been conditioned to regard
other species as having the same feelings, emotions, fears as us.
Seeing how other people treat these fellow creatures, with the same feelings,
emotions and fears as us, you have probably developed an anger toward them.
They have become a target which gives your life some meaning. You have found
the company of others who share your views and support your stance.
You will find it almost impossible to accept the truth; that fish have no
conciousness, probably don't feel pain. If they do, they don't 'know' they do,
and if they did they wouldn't be able to 'care' about it. you can only see the
fish's experience in human terms. (Feel the anger rising at what I've written
Shaun? The rejection of what I'm saying starting to seethe inside of you?).
Try to open your eyes and your mind Shaun. get beyond the conditioning you
have absorbed since childhood. Look for the truth, acceptable or unacceptable
to you.
You'll find anglers are largely a decent bunch who do care. Not the cruel
demons you have created in your mind. Start living a life, not a twisted
dream.
TL - leon
Darren
>I also believe that if you are going to preach your personnal moral issues
>to all and sundry you should make sure that you are well educated in your
>issues as you will always at some point find yourself preaching to someone
>who knows a damn site more than you do!
>>
>>You can't have it both ways.
>>
>Exactly!
>
>Di...@slamspam.homesix.globalnet.co.uk
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Remove "slamspam" for reply.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>A man who clothes himself in good deeds wears the best camouflage.
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I.C.Q 10687088
>
>
Oh Dion you are now my best sarcastic mate , good on ya!
Darren
Dion L Heap
LEONROSK wrote in message
<199805141746...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>
>
>You will find it almost impossible to accept the truth; that fish have no
>conciousness, probably don't feel pain. If they do, they don't 'know' they
do,
>and if they did they wouldn't be able to 'care' about it. you can only see
the
>fish's experience in human terms. (Feel the anger rising at what I've
written
>Shaun? The rejection of what I'm saying starting to seethe inside of you?).
>
>Try to open your eyes and your mind Shaun. get beyond the conditioning you
>have absorbed since childhood. Look for the truth, acceptable or
unacceptable
>to you.
>
Certainly sounds like a Vulcan mind meld to me ! :o)
Live long and prosper Leon !
Alec Powell
In article <199805141746...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, LEONROSK
<leon...@aol.com> writes
> Start living a life, not a twisted
>dream.
few weeks back.I thought he had taken a dive but it appears he's
back:-(((((((((
Alec
--
Alec Powell Watlington Oxon. UK Museum of Berkshire Aviation
http://www.prole.demon.co.uk South Oxfordshire War Memorials
mailto:Al...@prole.demon.co.uk National Anguilla Club
The Red Kite
Darren
>Well said Leon,this is the same guy that was giving us so much grief a
>few weeks back.I thought he had taken a dive but it appears he's
>back:-(((((((((
>Alec
>--
>Alec Powell Watlington Oxon. UK Museum of Berkshire Aviation
>http://www.prole.demon.co.uk South Oxfordshire War Memorials
>mailto:Al...@prole.demon.co.uk National Anguilla Club
> The Red Kite
>
>
no positive into the sport that comes from this Ng. Hopefully people will
come to this group and make their own minds up, instead of listening to an
obviuosly biased ANTI angling person. Everybody is entitled to their
opinion. damn shame really Shaun quite a good looking website. Oh by the
way Elton you are famous! All that talent Shaun and no useful escape for
it.
Darren
Elton Murphy
>have absorbed since childhood. Look for the truth, acceptable or unacceptable
>to you.
Or, alternatively, bugger off somewhere else again. This newsgroup has
been doing pretty well since you last decided to do the decent thing and
leave us.
Elton
--
Elton Murphy
Elton Murphy
In article <6jfmnv$c21$1...@nclient1-gui.server.virgin.net>, Darren
<darren...@virgin.net> writes
>yeah and if you visit his page how handy it is to use all the negatives and
>no positive into the sport that comes from this Ng.
It won't let me in - I wonder why?:-)
> Oh by the
>way Elton you are famous!
What have I done this time?
Tight lines,
Elton
--
Elton Murphy
Dion L Heap
Elton Murphy wrote in message <5YL6xCAb...@murphville.demon.co.uk>...
>Or, alternatively, bugger off somewhere else again. This newsgroup has
>been doing pretty well since you last decided to do the decent thing and
>leave us.
>
>Elton
>--
Seconded! and whilst we are on the subject of slagging off the sad git, how
can anyone take seriously the rantings of someone who can quite easily be
PROVED to be a liar!!
Be carefull how you respond to this one shaun as I am quite capable of
posting the proof on here along with a few other embarassing details.
LEONROSK
In article <6jfho5$75c$2...@heliodor.xara.net>, "Dion L Heap"
<Di...@slamspam.homesix.globalnet.co.uk> writes:
>
>Certainly sounds like a Vulcan mind meld to me ! :o)
>
Sorry to disappoint you Dion, I've never even met a Vulcan.
Mind you, Ive tried fishing for Grgkkuh on planet Xerious with a klargel mate
of mine.
You need to use lures over 420 metres long! Try carving one of them from a
broomstick on a Sunday afternoon!!
Steve, you should see the rods we used, made of accelerated particlerised
photons, trapped in a unpaired quantum field, with 'intelligence' applied in
arrays, smaller than the wavelengths of visible light. I really couldn't
understand the technology but believe me you could chuck those huge lures over
15 kilometres, like casting a 60 gram lure with a Nimrod! You could still feel
every touch of weed, It was really something when a Grgkkuh hit one of those
lures :-)))
TL - leon
TL - leon
Darren
you should see the rods we used, made of accelerated particlerised
>photons, trapped in a unpaired quantum field, with 'intelligence' applied
in
>arrays, smaller than the wavelengths of visible light. I really couldn't
>understand the technology but believe me you could chuck those huge lures
over
>15 kilometres, like casting a 60 gram lure with a Nimrod! You could still
feel
>every touch of weed, It was really something when a Grgkkuh hit one of
those
>lures :-)))
>
>TL - leon
>
>
>TL - leon
stick to benson and hedges mate those funny fags are no good for you
darren
>
>
Elton Murphy
In article <6jiac7$qfq$1...@nclient3-gui.server.virgin.net>, Darren
<darren...@virgin.net> writes
> Leon
>stick to benson and hedges mate those funny fags are no good for you
>darren
Don't listen to Darren - pass it round, there's a good chap:-)
Elton
--
Elton Murphy
Elton Murphy
In article <6ji74k$i7s$1...@heliodor.xara.net>, Dion L Heap <Dion@slamspam.
homesix.globalnet.co.uk> writes
>
>Elton Murphy wrote in message <5YL6xCAb...@murphville.demon.co.uk>...
>
>>Or, alternatively, bugger off somewhere else again. This newsgroup has
>>been doing pretty well since you last decided to do the decent thing and
>>leave us.
>>
>>Elton
>>--
>
>Seconded! and whilst we are on the subject of slagging off the sad git, how
>can anyone take seriously the rantings of someone who can quite easily be
>PROVED to be a liar!!
>Be carefull how you respond to this one shaun as I am quite capable of
>posting the proof on here along with a few other embarassing details.
He hasn't been posting to those bestial binary groups again, has he?
Dear me, Shaun, don't you realise that when a sheep makes a 'baa' noise,
it is because it is trying to indicate to you that you are not giving it
something it wants.....it doesn't make this noise because it enjoys the
stockings and wellies that you have just put on it.
Elton (ooh, look, another one for your quote file from a *real* angler).
--
Elton Murphy
richard saunders
I've only just had a chance to catch up with the ng and have just read through the
responses to this chap's comments.
I absolutely agree with all of you that think this person is misguided, or at least
following a different agenda. And I certainly don't agree with what I perceive to be
the underlying gyst of his comments (before I start getting nasty email!)
However, I think that we should at least acknowledge the need to constantly question
our own beliefs and points of views on controversial issues like live-baiting etc.
Therefore, I don't believe we should criticise this chap just because he has a
different point of view (he can't help being wrong!). Having our opinions challenged
in this way is a good thing in my opinion because it creates the opportunity for
unemotional debate that can lead to fresh opinion and information in order to lobby
in favour of our sport.
That's it. I'm off the soapbox now and going for a lie down and a rub-down with a
damp copy of the Angling Times.
Richard Saunders
SJ wrote:
> On 12 May 1998 21:11:25 GMT, leon...@aol.com (LEONROSK) wrote:
>
> >Extract from New Scientist - 9 May 1998.
> >
> >'Reptiles and mammals show signs of simple emotions, but amphibians and fish do
> >not, a physiologist told last week's Toward a Science of Consciousness meeting
> >in Arizona' The heart rate of a lizard or rat shoots up when a human handles
> >the animal gently, says Marcel Cabanac of Laval University in Quebec. In
> >contrast, bullfrogs failed to show any increase in heart rate after a minute of
> >handling, although their hearts do race during vigourous activity. Two other
> >frogs and four goldfish also did not display any such "emotional fever" either,
> >Cabanac found. He speculates that somewhere between amphibians and reptiles,
> >vertebrates crossed an evolutionary threshold that made these crude emotions
> >possible. "probably this is the most elementary level of consciousness", he
> >says.'
> >
>
> If fish cannot suffer how come the local club insists on barbless
> hooks, knotless nets, no livebaiting , unhooking mats, and a banning
> of keepnets ?
>
> Why is it acceptable to kill a roach as a livebait yet not kill a pike
> by deliberate gut hooking ?
>
Elton Murphy
In article <355CB8C9...@symantec.com>, richard saunders
<rsau...@symantec.com> writes
>I've only just had a chance to catch up with the ng and have just read through
>the
>responses to this chap's comments.
>
>I absolutely agree with all of you that think this person is misguided, or at
>least
>following a different agenda. And I certainly don't agree with what I perceive
>to be
>the underlying gyst of his comments (before I start getting nasty email!)
Richard,
you weren't around when this pratt annoyed everyone here by constantly
spewing out bucket loads of crap that he had obviously had dictated to
him from the back of some leaflet. He is a wind up merchant and a few of
us take the bait!
We disagree with each other a lot here, but respect each others views.
We joke around, but it's all harmless. Damn it, we sometimes even
discuss angling matters!:-)
However, I know from the last time that this troll appeared that I am in
the majority when I say that this guy is most unwelcome here, as he has
no other aim other than to wind people up. If much more of his junk
appears, then there will be a lot of complaints sent to his ISP
regarding off-topic posts.
BTW, welcome to the group - we're not that bad really (even Dion!).