More Spraying.
Matt Coates
OK, this is getting daunting and I wanted to ask a few more questions
before putting paint to body so to speak.
Cellulose paints, easy to do and if I decide to go for a metallic then I
don't need to use a laquer....right?
Pearlescent paints apparently need a base coat and a laquer..fine..but
they also need a long time to dry..is this also correct?
If this is the case and if anybody has tried to do this before then am I
going to get away with doing a DIY spray job in pearlescent colours? Is
this method of base coat followed by top coat normally referred to as
two-pack? Is there a chemical reaction in the base coat top coat method?
The factors said that it was fine to air dry the pearlescent without the
need for baking (therefore surely not the two-pack method) and the
difficulty was getting the environment clean enough to do this. Is this
the case and if so am I likely to be able to do it as a DIY job.....I
was actually thinking of buying a big tent and driving the into it but I
suspect this still won't be sufficient :(.
This all sounds so crazy!
Oh, one other thing. I've done spraying from a can before, in metallic,
and I distinctly remember having to use a lacquer after the base coat.
Is this the same as cellulose or the same as the Pearlescent method
described above? I seem to remember the thinner being xylene, the same
as with cellulose. What are the thinners with pearlescent paints,
presumably much slower.
So...calling all DIY sprayers with any experience of the above
thanks again,
matt.....(thinking that I've now confused you as much as I've confused
myself).
Terry Hill
catalyst. DO NOT USE. This must only be used in an enclosed environment with
proper extraction and filters, and with oxygen fed full face respirators.
If you are going for a metallic then yes you will need a lacquer over the
top. A metallic paint is made using small particles of aluminium (sometimes
coated in a different colour) suspended in the colour coat. When sprayed
these metallic particle are in all directions on the body. Hence you need
the lacquer to cover over the rough finish of the metallic paint and give a
good deep gloss.
As long as you stick with cellulose paint you will be all right.
What you are confusing with 2pack is base clear. With this you have a base
colour or metallic and then cover in clear lacquer. If you can get cellulose
pearl you would use this over the base colour and then lacquer over it.
If you want to go for Pearl then make sure that the supplier knows what you
are doing with it and that it does not need any isocyanate catalyst.
A lot of suppliers will not sell to the public because of the dangers with
using the products, but some just assume you know what you are doing. ALWAYS
check before buying.
Regarding your homemade spray booth, you may run into problems if you go for
base clear system as the main problem will be spray dust in the air settling
onto the car as it is drying.
Terry
"Matt Coates" <matthew...@exeter.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3B94D667...@exeter.ox.ac.uk...
J.L.E
Terry Hill <terry...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:%A6l7.3580$ii5.2...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> First off, 2pack is not cellulose, it is acrylic and uses an
isocyanate
> catalyst. DO NOT USE. This must only be used in an enclosed
environment with
> proper extraction and filters, and with oxygen fed full face
respirators.
>
I'll second all that, as will anyone who knows what they are talking
about, those that say you can spray 2pack in a DIY situation are
either total idiots or are total cu*ts were there (and other's) health
is concerned......
A lot of paint factors will NOT supply non trade people with 2pack
paint, they are just as likely to have the HSE people breath down
there necks as the person spraying the stuff if things go wrong or
someone complains.
Stephen
Matt Coates <matthew...@exeter.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
Hi Matt,
>
> OK, this is getting daunting and I wanted to ask a few more questions
> before putting paint to body so to speak.
>
> Cellulose paints, easy to do and if I decide to go for a metallic then I
> don't need to use a laquer....right?
> Pearlescent paints apparently need a base coat and a laquer..fine..but
> they also need a long time to dry..is this also correct?
Metallics, pearlescents and mica's require lacquering especially with
the modern colour ranges, as most metallics are "2 pack" based anyway
and nearly all modern lacquers are "2 pack" based.
It's the chemical reaction in "2 pack" that actually dries/cures the
paint but it's still cured enough for polishing the next day, as is
solvent air drying cellulose and acrylics.
> If this is the case and if anybody has tried to do this before then am I
> going to get away with doing a DIY spray job in pearlescent colours?
Not unless you have suitable premises an air fed mask and spray
equipment because 2 pack contains cyanide derivatives.
> Is this method of base coat followed by top coat normally referred to
> as two-pack? Is there a chemical reaction in the base coat top coat
> method?
Yes, 2 pack is usually described as a material that requires a second
component, an additive or activator (hence 2 pack) added to the paint
to force drying by a chemical action.
The activator is added to the lacquer only on basecoats or metallics.
On straight colours the activator is added the colour.
Cellulose is a "1 pack" or single component and is far more suited to
DIY spraying projects
> The factors said that it was fine to air dry the pearlescent without the
> need for baking (therefore surely not the two-pack method) and the
> difficulty was getting the environment clean enough to do this. Is this
> the case and if so am I likely to be able to do it as a DIY job.....I
> was actually thinking of buying a big tent and driving the into it but I
> suspect this still won't be sufficient :(.
Pearlescent only dries by a chemical reaction unless the paint factors
can mix it in cellulose, some colours may still be available in
cellulose format.
It's not obligatory to oven bake painwork but it does provide a much
harder finish.
> This all sounds so crazy!
> Oh, one other thing. I've done spraying from a can before, in metallic,
> and I distinctly remember having to use a lacquer after the base coat.
> Is this the same as cellulose or the same as the Pearlescent method
> described above? I seem to remember the thinner being xylene, the same
> as with cellulose. What are the thinners with pearlescent paints,
> presumably much slower.
This will depend on the colour, many paint factors will mix your chosen
paint colour and put it in an areosol ready for immediate use usually
it's a single component like cellulose.
Pearlescent is usually "2 pack" with an additional thinner that contains
Tolulene, Ethoxyethanol.
2 pack activator contains Xylene, Isocyanites.
Cellulose is "single pack" thinning medium is cellulose and contains
Tolulene, Xylene and Methanol.
> So...calling all DIY sprayers with any experience of the above
>
> thanks again,
>
> matt.....(thinking that I've now confused you as much as I've confused
> myself).
HTH,
Steve.
--
Vehicle Painting Pointers: http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
1970 IIa, 2.2, SWB T/Cab & R/Top
StrongArm Powered Risc PC 600, 80Mb + 2MbVram, RISC OS 4
Note email address spam trap, The "Reply to" should work.
John Truten
with a single pack acyrilic lacquer and you will be fine with a good mask
and plenty ventilation
eg...@notnow.com
typed:
Do you know what happens when you get isocyanate poisoning???
I seem to remember something about it disolving bones (especially the
jaw, as its where you breath it in)
Stephen
"John Truten" <Tru...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> The motor factor was right both metalic and pearl are air drying.Try that
> with a single pack acyrilic lacquer and you will be fine with a good mask
> and plenty ventilation
John,
Be careful when you state "both metallic and pearl are air drying".
I've used the term "usually" quite extensively throughout my previous
reply to avoid making a similar comment about paint being supplied in
one format only.
Pearlescents and Metallics are "usually" mixed in a "2 pack" formula and
are therefore "not" air drying.
However you can obtain "some" colours in cellulose or acrylic form that
are indeed air drying but definitely not all. ;-)
Cheers,
Porter, Richard [MOP:6542:EXCH]
>
> I'll second all that, as will anyone who knows what they are talking
> about, those that say you can spray 2pack in a DIY situation are
> either total idiots or are total cu*ts were there (and other's) health
> is concerned......
Not all paints supplied in 2-pack form contain isocyanates. Check the
labels for details.
Richard
Anthony
<matthew...@exeter.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>OK, this is getting daunting and I wanted to ask a few more questions
>before putting paint to body so to speak.
>
Ok silly question I know but ....
Why don't you do all the prep work (as that is where most
spraypainters charge bigga bucks) and then whip the thing round to
your local spraypainters to spray it. ?
COS
If you cock it up, (and if you haven't sprayed a whole car before
chances are you will) you are going to have to do a lot of work to
sort it out properly.
Just spend lots and lots of time preparing the bodywork and then let a
pro finish the job
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Life ?...Dont talk to me about Life
-----------------------------------------------------------
Op's
Stephen wrote:
> Be careful when you state "both metallic and pearl are air drying".
>
> I've used the term "usually" quite extensively throughout my previous
> reply to avoid making a similar comment about paint being supplied in
> one format only.
>
> Pearlescents and Metallics are "usually" mixed in a "2 pack" formula and
> are therefore "not" air drying.
>
The air drying bit may have changed and I think that DeBeer have a quick drying
version out which paints like an Acrylic Laquer. - Although this still does
not take away the fact they are a 2 pack and still contain isocyanate catalyst.
http://www.debeerlakfabrieken.com/
Air-drying as well as forced drying is possible. BeroCryl 2K Series 400
2K Hardeners
47-20 10 - 18ºC 50 - 64ºF
Use under non-forced drying
conditions.
Spot-repair
Emma Pullen
you have the means to use it in the proper environment.
We use cellulose paint in a clean environment and lots of thin coats, just
make sure you get the amount of thinners right and paying a bit more you get
a better paint..... I talk from experience!!
Emma
Stephen
Thats quite true some 2 pack paints are isocyanite free, but what they
don't tell you is the activators used in them still contain isocyanites.
Peter Riggs
wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:35:34 +0100, "J.L.E" <ne...@scarts.fsnet.co.uk>
> typed:
>
>> Do you know what happens when you get isocyanate poisoning???
>
>
> I seem to remember something about it disolving bones (especially the
> jaw, as its where you breath it in)
>
>
>
> Anthony
> Http://www.godden79.fsnet.co.uk
In extreme circumstances you die!
Isocyanates are respiratory sensitisers so the first exposure, if not
severe, leaves you with sensitised lungs. The next exposure, which is of
a far lower level than the first, will then have more critical effects.
As far as I know it does not attack bones.
Regards,
peter.
Peter Riggs
<stephe...@tenretnitb.moc> wrote:
> In message <9n3h28$16$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>
> "John Truten" <Tru...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> The motor factor was right both metalic and pearl are air drying.Try
>> that with a single pack acyrilic lacquer and you will be fine with a
>> good mask and plenty ventilation
>
> John,
> Be careful when you state "both metallic and pearl are air drying".
>
> I've used the term "usually" quite extensively throughout my previous
> reply to avoid making a similar comment about paint being supplied in
> one format only.
>
> Pearlescents and Metallics are "usually" mixed in a "2 pack" formula and
> are therefore "not" air drying.
>
> However you can obtain "some" colours in cellulose or acrylic form that
> are indeed air drying but definitely not all. ;-)
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steve.
>
>
>
All paints are air drying, ie. they do not require the exclusion of air
to dry.
2-pack paints chemically cure but the thinners evaporate off in the air.
Using a fast thinner enables you to spray under ambient conditions
(arctic thinners let you spray at temperature you would not want to spray
at)
Pearls and metallics are not 2-pack. They are generally a conventional
acrylic base which is then covered with a clear lacquer. This is the
standard basecoat/clear process modified to be basecoat/pearl/clear.
Metallics are usually in the basecoat
Regards,
peter.
Stephen
Op's <mar...@wollongong.apana.org.au> wrote:
> The air drying bit may have changed and I think that DeBeer have a quick
> drying version out which paints like an Acrylic Laquer. - Although
> this still does not take away the fact they are a 2 pack and still
> contain isocyanate catalyst.
>
> http://www.debeerlakfabrieken.com/
>
> Air-drying as well as forced drying is possible. BeroCryl 2K Series 400
>
> 2K Hardeners
>
> 47-20 10 - 18ºC 50 - 64ºF
> Use under non-forced drying
> conditions.
> Spot-repair
>
Indeed it is and if i recall correctly 2 pack paint was originally all
synthetic at one time and had a reducer added so it could not be used
satisfactorily as a conventional brush type synthetic because it would
take days to air dry. It would therefore require an activator to force
dry the synthetic by chemical intervention thus creating a two component
paint.
It's still possible to brush or spray with modern day 2 pack without
adding a hardener but they wouldn't air dry properly and couldn't
cure without the hardener which also serves as a accelerator.
Of course we can spray a 2 pack metallic basecoat that dries purely by
air while awaiting the lacquer or top coat that will in almost every
case be a 2 pack chemical dried substrate.
Now i'm getting confused.....
J.L.E
Peter Riggs <pe...@virtuallab.org> wrote in message
news:pan.2001.09.05.2...@virtuallab.org...
> In article <3b9552fb...@news.freeserve.net>, "egor"
<eg...@notnow.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:35:34 +0100, "J.L.E"
<ne...@scarts.fsnet.co.uk>
> > typed:
> >
> >> Do you know what happens when you get isocyanate poisoning???
> >
> >
> > I seem to remember something about it disolving bones (especially
the
> > jaw, as its where you breath it in)
> >
>
>
> Isocyanates are respiratory sensitisers so the first exposure, if
not
> severe, leaves you with sensitised lungs. The next exposure, which
is of
> a far lower level than the first, will then have more critical
effects.
>
> As far as I know it does not attack bones.
>
I think there is a possible miss understanding in the first answer to
the original question, what you might be thinking about is the
warnings about burnt and / or severely over heated rubber seals as
used un 'O' rings etc. They can give off nitrous acid (or something
like that) which does dissolve bone, and the only treatment (as
reported about three years back by people like the VBRA / AA etc.) was
amputation at a point before the damaged bone ! :~((
Stephen
"Peter Riggs" <pe...@virtuallab.org> wrote:
> In article <6fa6eeb4...@btinternet.com>, "Stephen"
> <stephe...@tenretnitb.moc> wrote:
> All paints are air drying, ie. they do not require the exclusion of air
> to dry.
Yes i haven't explained this very well, I agree all paints dry by air
until you add an activator then they dry chemically and are thereafter
described as 2 pack.
> 2-pack paints chemically cure but the thinners evaporate off in the air.
> Using a fast thinner enables you to spray under ambient conditions
> (arctic thinners let you spray at temperature you would not want to spray
> at)
I think you may have misunderstood what i meant here,
> Pearls and metallics are not 2-pack. They are generally a conventional
> acrylic base which is then covered with a clear lacquer.
True but you don't leave metallic or pearl bascoats uncoated they need
lacquering and the lacquer is nearly always 2 pack. The sprayer is still
purchasing 2 pack to spray a car irrespective of what the metallic pearl or
basecotes are constructed from.
The overall painting method is as a 2 pack paint system.
The LR colour "Savannah beige metallic" for example is only available in
2 pack according to my colour directory even if the basecote is acrylic.
Pearls and metallics are therefore generally described as 2 pack.
You can buy acrylic or cellulose base metallics and lacquers in aerosol
form more suited for the DIY person but i'm talking about purchasing
professionally mixed paints used at body repair shops who have the
necessary equipment.
> standard basecoat/clear process modified to be basecoat/pearl/clear.
> Metallics are usually in the basecoat
>
> Regards,
> peter.
Cheers,
Andrew Wheeldon
> You can buy acrylic or cellulose base metallics and lacquers in aerosol
> form more suited for the DIY person but i'm talking about purchasing
> professionally mixed paints used at body repair shops who have the
> necessary equipment.
>
cellulose lacquers to put on top too. some factors do um some don't. people
sprayed metallic and ally flake paints before 2 pack was around and they can
still do it now. Any colour can be mixed in cellulose and acrylic paints
it's just a question as to whether the factor you have chosen has the
'recipe' Not all metallic are base cote and lacquer I have sprayed some that
are and others that are not. I have to say that I prefer spraying a metallic
as a basecoat and lacquer Personally I get better results this way. I also
prefer spraying cellulose to acrylics. cellulose requires much more
preparation to get good results but it dries quicker and you can correct any
mistakes or accidents quicker and easier (therefore better for DIY) . Your
also less likely to get dead flies and fluff in it.
Andy
J.L.E
Andrew Wheeldon <whee...@homewithalice.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
message news:9n8ajg$312$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> > You can buy acrylic or cellulose base metallics and lacquers in
aerosol
> > form more suited for the DIY person but i'm talking about
purchasing
> > professionally mixed paints used at body repair shops who have the
> > necessary equipment.
> >
> You can buy metallic in cellulose to spray from a gun. and you can
get clear
> cellulose lacquers to put on top too. some factors do um some don't.
people
> sprayed metallic and ally flake paints before 2 pack was around and
they can
> still do it now. Any colour can be mixed in cellulose and acrylic
paints
> it's just a question as to whether the factor you have chosen has
the
> 'recipe'
Or indeed the paint makers themselves.....
<snip>
eg...@notnow.com
typed:
>
<snip>
>>
>> As far as I know it does not attack bones.
>>
>
>I think there is a possible miss understanding in the first answer to
>the original question, what you might be thinking about is the
>warnings about burnt and / or severely over heated rubber seals as
>used un 'O' rings etc. They can give off nitrous acid (or something
>like that) which does dissolve bone, and the only treatment (as
>reported about three years back by people like the VBRA / AA etc.) was
>amputation at a point before the damaged bone ! :~((
>
>
I was thinking about isocyanate poisoning, but I could have been
wrong. I had forgotten about the burning rubber though.
Where I work at the moment we deal with all sorts of chemical
compounds and nearly all of them have warnings on like
POTENTIALLY HARMFUL
UNTESTED CHEMICALS
which makes things rather interesting!
John Truten
largest bodyshop in britian (direct line) I asure you no basecoat or pearl
is 2 pack.Two pack means 1pack paint 1pack hardner.There is no hardner in
basecoat or pearlecent.
"Stephen" <stephe...@tenretnitb.moc> wrote in message
news:66e4b6b5...@btinternet.com...
J.L.E
John Truten <Tru...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:9n8ta6$hl2$1...@uranium.btinternet.com...
> Now 42 and being a spray painter since i was 16 i Now working in
the
> largest bodyshop in britian (direct line) I asure you no basecoat or
pearl
> is 2 pack.Two pack means 1pack paint 1pack hardner.There is no
hardner in
> basecoat or pearlecent.
What do you do, sweep up ?!... Or do you spray cars and let them out
only half sprayed, with no lacquer on them !
Stephen
"John Truten" <Tru...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Now 42 and being a spray painter since i was 16 i Now working in the
> largest bodyshop in britian (direct line) I asure you no basecoat or pearl
> is 2 pack.Two pack means 1pack paint 1pack hardner.There is no hardner in
> basecoat or pearlecent.
Ok i'll try again,
I didn't say there was a hardener in basecoat or pearlescent, But i did
say Metallics, pearlescents and mica's require lacquering as most
metallics are "2 pack" based, (i meant the system is 2 pack based) and i
know you can still get various paints made up that are not 2 pack but
"SOME" metallic colours are only available in a 2 pack formulas and that
is according to the PPG colour guide.
I also said Pearlescent is usually "2 pack" with an additional thinner
(i meant this as part of the 2 pack system because you obviously don't
spray basecoat without a lacquer>. I do know you can still get metallic
colours in other formats including 1 pack but metallic colour formulars
are more commonly 2 pack based according to the PPG colour directory.
I've also been spraying/painting vehicles since i was 16, worked for
Rolls Royce motors, run my own paint shop until i had to give up through
ill health and i'm only 48, perhaps i've become rusty over the years or
my method of explaining could be improved upon but i get the impression
you're just splitting hairs when i generalise.
Regards,
J.L.E
Stephen <stephe...@tenretnitb.moc> wrote in message
<snip>
>
> "SOME" metallic colours are only available in a 2 pack formulas and
that
> is according to the PPG colour guide.
OK, who can say what PPG is short for ?... (Keep quite steve !)
Matt Coates
quote was still a lot of money (400 ukp). Most of the prep work has been
done, it just needs to be improved. On top of this I've got a few future
plans such as using some of the panel space as an art board. I have a
very talented friend who has offered to airbrush designs onto it. Still
not sure if that's what I want but I know that if I was to have the work
done professionally then I would be loathe to damage it. Besides, it's a
spitfire and it's going to rust. I don't think there is a way to stop
that. If I could spray myself and meet the initial start-up cost as well
as gain experience then it kinda makes the whole project round off
rather well. I did everything else on it from the base up, interior
(needle and thread stuff with leather) welding...just about everything
as well as the little mods that I prefered over the original Micholetti
design. I suspect it is going to go tit's up but then I will have tried,
and I just feel it's better to have tried and failed and learnt than to
have never attempted in the first place. If however I thought I could
get it done cheaper than this then it is something I would consider. I
have the finances of a very poor student of 7 years and just feel that
long term is better than short term. Still very interested in quotes
though if you know anyone in the Oxford vicinity.
cheers,
matt
Terry Hill
"J.L.E" <ne...@scarts.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9na00c$bda$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
Terry Hill
necessary a compressor and gun. Then take a panel like the bootlid off the
car and practice.
As you have never done anything like this before just use cellulose paint
and a plain colour.
If you make a mess, just clean it off and try again. Don't try the car
first, get the technique right and then go onto the car.
Your mate who does the airbrush work should be able to guide you.
Terry
"Matt Coates" <matthew...@exeter.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3B98BE42...@exeter.ox.ac.uk...
Jim Warren
>
P*ss Poor Green? :-)
Anthony
<terry...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>If you just want to try it out then I would suggest you borrow or hire if
>necessary a compressor and gun. Then take a panel like the bootlid off the
>car and practice.
>As you have never done anything like this before just use cellulose paint
>and a plain colour.
>If you make a mess, just clean it off and try again. Don't try the car
>first, get the technique right and then go onto the car.
>Your mate who does the airbrush work should be able to guide you.
>
>Terry
>
For my first try at spraypainting I bought a Bonnet from a wrecker and
prepped and sprayed that........
What a cock up................started again laying the bonnet flat and
finally learned to get that right................Then propped the
bonnet up and had to learn to spray a vertical surface
Whooohoo was that fun !!
Ashley
I did my own spraying on my spitfire 1500 a few years ago. We were told
exactly what to do by a professional from whom we bought the paint.
If you haven't started and need some help please dont hesitate to contact
me.
Cheers
Ashley
P.S see my spitfire at http://spitfirenet.hopto.org
Matt Coates <matthew...@exeter.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:3B94D667...@exeter.ox.ac.uk...
>
> OK, this is getting daunting and I wanted to ask a few more questions
> before putting paint to body so to speak.
>
Stephen
"J.L.E" <ne...@scarts.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> OK, who can say what PPG is short for ?... (Keep quiet steve !)
>
Me keep quiet, for how long ;-)
Stephen
eg...@notnow.com wrote:
>
> Do you know what happens when you get isocyanate poisoning???
>
IIRC isocyanite builds up in your system and can eventually lead to
irreversible liver damage.
J.L.E
Stephen <stephe...@tenretnitb.moc> wrote in message
> In message <9na00c$bda$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk>
> "J.L.E" <ne...@scarts.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > OK, who can say what PPG is short for ?... (Keep quiet steve !)
> >
> Me keep quiet, for how long ;-)
>
Oops. You can breath now Steve ! :~)