I can't why he thinks you'd have to reverse coming out of an eastbound bay at Hellifield if you were going to Blaxkburn. Can anyone enlighten me or am I missing something?
AS far as I can see you would run into the mainline down platform, run round come out and then reverse into the bay awaiting departure.
On Jun 1, 2:23 pm, "Paul Rigg" <gzero...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> I can't why he thinks you'd have to reverse coming out of an eastbound bay
> at Hellifield if you were going to Blaxkburn. Can anyone enlighten me or am
> I missing something?
> AS far as I can see you would run into the mainline down platform, run round
> come out and then reverse into the bay awaiting departure.
Yes, run into main platform, run round and draw the train back out of
the platform (1st reversal in the main platform), propel train back
into the bay (2nd reversal just East of the platforms), then run out
of the bay and head for Daisyfield Junction (3rd reversal in the
bay). No reversal after leaving the bay. There must be an odd number
of reversals to head back the way you came in, and there's no way you
could arrive at the main platform and leave from the bay with only one
reversal.
Alternatively, if there's a crossover West of the station, I don't
know if there is, run beyond the main down platform, reverse over the
crossover into the up main platform, reverse into the bay, and then
reverse out of the bay towards Daisyfield. It's still three
reversals; I can't see any way to do it with less.
> Imagining indeed, not all Northern hill farmers and villagers are quite > as rich and mobile as sceond-homers in the south, not to mention the > retired and the young - the S+C is a lifeline for a great many who > simply cannot afford the luxury of driving.
> SB
So just how many residents within, say, 10 miles either side of the line actually use it more than once a year?
All the hill farmers I know run a road vehicle for business and social purposes so why would they use the train?
>> Imagining indeed, not all Northern hill farmers and villagers are quite
>> as rich and mobile as sceond-homers in the south, not to mention the
>> retired and the young - the S+C is a lifeline for a great many who
>> simply cannot afford the luxury of driving.
>> SB
> So just how many residents within, say, 10 miles either side of the line actually use it more than once a year?
> All the hill farmers I know run a road vehicle for business and social purposes so why would they use the train?
Allan <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>On 01/06/2012 19:51, JJ wrote:
>> Steve Broadbent wrote:
>>> Imagining indeed, not all Northern hill farmers and villagers are quite
>>> as rich and mobile as sceond-homers in the south, not to mention the
>>> retired and the young - the S+C is a lifeline for a great many who
>>> simply cannot afford the luxury of driving.
>> So just how many residents within, say, 10 miles either side of the line actually use it more than once a year?
>> All the hill farmers I know run a road vehicle for business and social purposes so why would they use the train?
"Membership is open to all who use the line on a regular basis,
particularly those commuting for work. As at January 2012 there are
over 50 STRoPRUG members."
50 members? Not many people using the train, then.
> > On May 26, 5:58 pm, Allan<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> Craven Herald: Thurs 24 May 2012
..............
> Maybe there is potential for a couple of commuter-type services from
> Hellifield to Blackburn then Preston or Bolton / Manchester, plus a
> couple of trips in the middle of the day for shoppers, etc. and a
> mid-evening service to complete things ?
> Bevan
I'd have thought that would be the best one could hope for. Maybe one
in the morning (making a connection, allowing the very early morning
ex-Carlisle to feed into it), maybe one at 09.00-ish ex Settle.
These would allow reasonable connectivity with east Lancs. then
another 3 or 4 spread out in the day.
Apart from the premier L&Y Scottish trains, I suspect the local
service in steam days was very sparse.
PP
> > Maybe there is potential for a couple of commuter-type services from
> > Hellifield to Blackburn then Preston or Bolton / Manchester, plus a
> > couple of trips in the middle of the day for shoppers, etc. and a
> > mid-evening service to complete things ?
> > Bevan
> I'd have thought that would be the best one could hope for. Maybe one
> in the morning (making a connection, allowing the very early morning
> ex-Carlisle to feed into it), maybe one at 09.00-ish ex Settle.
> These would allow reasonable connectivity with east Lancs. then
> another 3 or 4 spread out in the day.
> Apart from the premier L&Y Scottish trains, I suspect the local
> service in steam days was very sparse.
> PP
See http://www.ribblevalleyrail.co.uk/LX.htm#RVL for 1938 Bradshaw timetable for Manchester - Bolton - Blackburn - Hellifield.
Quite busy and quite a few Anglo Scottish trains. But that was in the days when very few people had a car.
On Saturday, 2 June 2012 10:53:02 UTC+1, Prince Palatine wrote:
> On May 27, 10:38 pm, Bevan Price <bevanprice...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> > On 26/05/2012 23:38, Stephen Furley wrote:
> > > On May 26, 5:58 pm, Allan<inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > >> Craven Herald: Thurs 24 May 2012
> ..............
> > Maybe there is potential for a couple of commuter-type services from
> > Hellifield to Blackburn then Preston or Bolton / Manchester, plus a
> > couple of trips in the middle of the day for shoppers, etc. and a
> > mid-evening service to complete things ?
> > Bevan
> I'd have thought that would be the best one could hope for. Maybe one
> in the morning (making a connection, allowing the very early morning
> ex-Carlisle to feed into it), maybe one at 09.00-ish ex Settle.
> These would allow reasonable connectivity with east Lancs. then
> another 3 or 4 spread out in the day.
> Apart from the premier L&Y Scottish trains, I suspect the local
> service in steam days was very sparse.
> PP
Agreed, given that there is little or no potential traffic between Clitheroe and Hellifield. Having said that, however, ISTR from a previous stay in the area that Hellifield has become a popular park-and-ride station and a service to Manchester may increase that. IMO, it would also make more sense for most if not all trains to terminate at Settle, given that it is the largest town in the area.
> > Imagining indeed, not all Northern hill farmers and villagers are quite > > as rich and mobile as sceond-homers in the south, not to mention the > > retired and the young - the S+C is a lifeline for a great many who > > simply cannot afford the luxury of driving.
> > SB
> So just how many residents within, say, 10 miles either side of the line > actually use it more than once a year?
> All the hill farmers I know run a road vehicle for business and social > purposes so why would they use the train?
For the same reason that any sensible person would use the train when they can rather than drive.
In article <b74424a2-91b8-4bce-bad6-cb61aedc9149@googlegroups.com>,
Garden6...@live.co.uk wrote:
> Agreed, given that there is little or no potential traffic between Clitheroe > and Hellifield. Having said that, however, ISTR from a previous stay in the > area that Hellifield has become a popular park-and-ride station and a service > to Manchester may increase that. IMO, it would also make more sense for most > if not all trains to terminate at Settle, given that it is the largest town > in the area.
But the point of the new service would be
a/ to connect Appleby, KS and intermediate stations to Manchester and the airport
b/ to give Manchester, Bolton and Blackburn people access to tthe Dales for recreation
c/ to give extra capacity between Settle and Carlisle from where coach loads are being turned away for lack of seats.
While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder if the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better service on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?
Which really is rather poor.
so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
1. There is no morning 'commuter' time arrival in Lancaster (apart from the very early departure from Skipton, which I assume runs most of the way ECS, the first arrival in Lancaster is 10.12.).
2. Even the one morning 'commuter' type train, the 07.10 ex Lancaster - does not reach Leeds until just after 09.00, so too late for most working folk. Is the main role of this train to bring kids to school in Skipton?
3. The last train back from Leeds, at 16.49, is also too early for most workers, surely?
For large parts of the day there are three-hour gaps between trains.
Assuming there are not pathing difficulties (has it been singled? I know it used to be double track), the addition of even one unit, even if only working over the core section of the route, ie Skipton or Hellifield to Lancaster and return, would surely make using the line far more passenger friendly - particuolarly if the additional unit worked an 07.30-ish departure ex Skipton to give an 08.40 arrival in Lancaster, and in addition an 18.30 or 19.00 departure ex Skipton to provide connections for passengers departing Leeds/Bradford around 17.30-18.00.
Far cheaper - no expensice infrastructure investment - and far more achievalbe, surely? Could be made to slot into a currently working timetable.
prince.palat...@gmail.com wrote:
>While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder i=
>f the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better servi=
>ce on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?=20
>Which really is rather poor.=20
>so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
Has it not occurred to you that the service is "rather poor" because
there is so little demand for it?
> While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder if the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better service on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?
> Which really is rather poor.
> so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
> 1. There is no morning 'commuter' time arrival in Lancaster (apart from the very early departure from Skipton, which I assume runs most of the way ECS, the first arrival in Lancaster is 10.12.).
> 2. Even the one morning 'commuter' type train, the 07.10 ex Lancaster - does not reach Leeds until just after 09.00, so too late for most working folk. Is the main role of this train to bring kids to school in Skipton?
> 3. The last train back from Leeds, at 16.49, is also too early for most workers, surely?
> For large parts of the day there are three-hour gaps between trains.
> Assuming there are not pathing difficulties (has it been singled? I know it used to be double track), the addition of even one unit, even if only working over the core section of the route, ie Skipton or Hellifield to Lancaster and return, would surely make using the line far more passenger friendly - particuolarly if the additional unit worked an 07.30-ish departure ex Skipton to give an 08.40 arrival in Lancaster, and in addition an 18.30 or 19.00 departure ex Skipton to provide connections for passengers departing Leeds/Bradford around 17.30-18.00.
> Far cheaper - no expensice infrastructure investment - and far more achievalbe, surely? Could be made to slot into a currently working timetable.
> PP
The clue is in the name: Friends of Settle-Carlisle line.
You may be confusing with LASRUG.
In fairness, the service is much improved from what it was.
Also, from the Settle area, there are a fair number of commuters towards Leeds (and stations in between) using the Giggleswick train that gets into Leeds at 0904 (for intermediate stations e.g. Keighley) which is a little later than the Settle flavour which gets to Leeds at 0837.
Also, there are often a number of commuters come home arriving into Giggleswick on the 1639 ex Leeds.
> "Membership is open to all who use the line on a regular basis,
> particularly those commuting for work. As at January 2012 there are
> over 50 STRoPRUG members."
> 50 members? Not many people using the train, then.
Whenever I’ve used the service trains, they’ve always loaded well and
with strengthened formations of three or four cars.
However, it’s pretty obvious, when they all get on at Settle, that
they are predominately tourists or walkers.
It’s great that the S&C is nowadays such a success story but I
seriously doubt it’s meeting local needs that has made it so.
>> "Membership is open to all who use the line on a regular basis,
>> particularly those commuting for work. As at January 2012 there are
>> over 50 STRoPRUG members."
>> 50 members? Not many people using the train, then.
> Whenever I’ve used the service trains, they’ve always loaded well and
> with strengthened formations of three or four cars.
> However, it’s pretty obvious, when they all get on at Settle, that
> they are predominately tourists or walkers.
> It’s great that the S&C is nowadays such a success story but I
> seriously doubt it’s meeting local needs that has made it so.
And who keeps the service going when the tourists aren't there?
May I recommend you sample a few weekday mornings on Settle station for the 0730 towards Leeds.
Or perhaps try and get a seat when the Dales Railcard (local postcodes/residents, nothwithstanding the YW Metro flavour of the same thing) Winter offer is on?
<prince.palat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder
> if the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better
> service on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?
> Which really is rather poor.
> so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
> 1. There is no morning 'commuter' time arrival in Lancaster (apart from
> the very early departure from Skipton, which I assume runs most of the
> way ECS, the first arrival in Lancaster is 10.12.).
> 2. Even the one morning 'commuter' type train, the 07.10 ex Lancaster -
> does not reach Leeds until just after 09.00, so too late for most working
> folk. Is the main role of this train to bring kids to school in Skipton?
> 3. The last train back from Leeds, at 16.49, is also too early for most workers, surely?
> For large parts of the day there are three-hour gaps between trains.
> Assuming there are not pathing difficulties (has it been singled? I know
> it used to be double track), the addition of even one unit, even if only
> working over the core section of the route, ie Skipton or Hellifield to
> Lancaster and return, would surely make using the line far more passenger
> friendly - particuolarly if the additional unit worked an 07.30-ish
> departure ex Skipton to give an 08.40 arrival in Lancaster, and in
> addition an 18.30 or 19.00 departure ex Skipton to provide connections
> for passengers departing Leeds/Bradford around 17.30-18.00.
> Far cheaper - no expensice infrastructure investment - and far more
> achievalbe, surely? Could be made to slot into a currently working timetable.
The 1938 timetable linked elsewhere in this thread had many of the
Blackburn-Hellifield trains continuing to Carnforth and Morecambe; I wonder
if there's any way to use the proposed extended Blackburn-Hellifield
service to bolster the Carnforth service, with connections at Hellifield? I
suppose it all depends on how many units are available and how the times
fit...
In message <a44f3fFvl...@mid.individual.net>, at 23:19:27 on Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Allan <inva...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>Or perhaps try and get a seat when the Dales Railcard (local >postcodes/residents, nothwithstanding the YW Metro flavour of the same >thing) Winter offer is on?
Doesn't that just show you can turn a loss making rail line into an extremely loss making rail line if you lower the fares sufficiently?
-- Roland Perry
On Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:16:45 PM UTC+2, Bruce wrote:
> prince.palat...@gmail.com wrote:
> >While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder i=
> >f the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better servi=
> >ce on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?=20
> >Which really is rather poor.=20
> >so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
> Has it not occurred to you that the service is "rather poor" because
> there is so little demand for it?
> Chicken and egg.
yes, of course. I was however trying to see what the mood 'out there' was.
Also, unlike, say the one KX - Inverness through train (a special service provided for such a long distance service), 4 trains a day (effectively) in one direction and 5 in ther other does not constitute a service in modern day terms for a local cross country line.
This is just bare bones stuff, not attractive at all to people who want flexibility in the age of the ubiquitous car.
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 8:56:00 AM UTC+2, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
> wrote:
...........
> The 1938 timetable linked elsewhere in this thread had many of the
> Blackburn-Hellifield trains continuing to Carnforth and Morecambe; I wonder
> if there's any way to use the proposed extended Blackburn-Hellifield
> service to bolster the Carnforth service, with connections at Hellifield? I
> suppose it all depends on how many units are available and how the times
> fit...
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
Which rather neatly brings the Skipton - Lancaster line back on thread topic! PP
> prince.palat...@gmail.com wrote:
>>While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder >>i=
>>f the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better >>servi=
>>ce on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?=20
>>Which really is rather poor.=20
>>so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
> Has it not occurred to you that the service is "rather poor" because
> there is so little demand for it?
> Chicken and egg.
-----------------
True but if the line is to remain open at all there could be benefit from optimising the timetable rather than setting it in stone for 20 years. On the Morecambe route I believe pathing difficulties on the WCML south of Carnforth may be an issue but with a degree of will these can usually be resolved.
prince.palat...@gmail.com wrote:
>On Saturday, June 16, 2012 5:16:45 PM UTC+2, Bruce wrote:
>> prince.palat...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder i=
>> >f the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better servi=
>> >ce on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?=20
>> >Which really is rather poor.=20
>> >so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
>> Has it not occurred to you that the service is "rather poor" because
>> there is so little demand for it?
>> Chicken and egg.
>yes, of course. I was however trying to see what the mood 'out there' was.
>Also, unlike, say the one KX - Inverness through train (a special service >provided for such a long distance service), 4 trains a day (effectively) >in one direction and 5 in ther other does not constitute a service in >modern day terms for a local cross country line.
>This is just bare bones stuff, not attractive at all to people who want >flexibility in the age of the ubiquitous car.
True, but that flexibility can be much more efficiently provided by
buses. It is difficult to see how there could ever be enough a market
to justify a more frequent service, given that it serves only small
settlements apart from Giggleswick. But is there really much demand
for trains between Giggleswick and the coast? The people of
Giggleswick
>The service was cut down in the 1990s not because of a lack of >passengers per se, but because the stock was more needed >elsewhere.
>So, should a spare unit become available, it would appear there >could well be a case for service enhancement.
I lived and worked in Morecambe in the early 1980s and there was talk
of shutting the line then. I don't know how it survived Beeching.
Possibly because of some freight services to/from Furness and the
Cumbrian Coast, perhaps later including nuclear flask traffic? I
think the freight traffic has probably all but died out, and the costs
of a line such as this could never be covered by the sparse passenger
receipts from small village stations.
I wish the Community Rail Partnership every success, but they do seem
to be flogging a dead horse.
>"Bruce" <docnews2...@gmail.com> wrote in message >news:3o8pt7d51h4t5p4brvltrlbcb9b3gjpo39@4ax.com...
>> prince.palat...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>While Hellifield - Clitheroe would be a "very nice" thing to do, I wonder >>>i=
>>>f the group's energies might be better spent campaigning for a better >>>servi=
>>>ce on the Leeds - Skipton - Lancaster (- Morecambe) line?=20
>>>Which really is rather poor.=20
>>>so poor, in fact, one wonders who uses these trains?
>> Has it not occurred to you that the service is "rather poor" because
>> there is so little demand for it?
>> Chicken and egg.
>-----------------
>True but if the line is to remain open at all there could be benefit from >optimising the timetable rather than setting it in stone for 20 years. On >the Morecambe route I believe pathing difficulties on the WCML south of >Carnforth may be an issue but with a degree of will these can usually be >resolved.
It depends what you mean by "optimising the timetable". If you mean
re-timing the trains to encourage commuter use, that's good. But if
you mean adding more trains to the timetable, you would probably end
up spreading the existing ridership over a greater number of trains
while adding very little to overall farebox revenue.
Bruce <docnews2...@gmail.com> wrote:
>True, but that flexibility can be much more efficiently provided by
>buses. It is difficult to see how there could ever be enough a market
>to justify a more frequent service, given that it serves only small
>settlements apart from Giggleswick. But is there really much demand
>for trains between Giggleswick and the coast? The people of
>Giggleswick
Sorry, that paragraph was unfinished. It should have said:
True, but that flexibility can be much more efficiently provided by
buses. It is difficult to see how there could ever be enough a market
to justify a more frequent train service, given that it serves only
small settlements apart from Giggleswick. But is there really much
demand for trains between Giggleswick and the coast? The people of
Giggleswick are otherwise well served by nearby Settle station.
On Sunday, June 17, 2012 4:33:11 PM UTC+2, Bruce wrote:
> Bruce <docnews2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >True, but that flexibility can be much more efficiently provided by
> >buses. It is difficult to see how there could ever be enough a market
> >to justify a more frequent service, given that it serves only small
> >settlements apart from Giggleswick. But is there really much demand
> >for trains between Giggleswick and the coast? The people of
> >Giggleswick
> Sorry, that paragraph was unfinished. It should have said:
> True, but that flexibility can be much more efficiently provided by
> buses. It is difficult to see how there could ever be enough a market
> to justify a more frequent train service, given that it serves only
> small settlements apart from Giggleswick. But is there really much
> demand for trains between Giggleswick and the coast? The people of
> Giggleswick are otherwise well served by nearby Settle station.
Demand from Giggleswick/Settle to the coast must be minimal. But from the greater Leeds/Bradford connurbation is naturally, something else.
Indeed, as the settlements along the line are not exactly bustling cities, perhaps more emphasis should be placed on the cross-country capabilties of the route.
To this end, the support association seems to have been campaigning for better connections at Carnforth with Barrow line trains, to promote the line for Furness - Leeds traffic.
Unlikely to ever happen, but perhaps a limited Barrow-Leeds service (four trains a day?) might pull in more passengers than adding additional Leeds - Lancaster. Assuming they can reverse easily at Carnforth - I don't know the modern track layout. PP
