Impeach Blair over Iraq: UK general
Peter Watson
------- Forwarded message follows -------
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17761511%255E1702,00.html
Impeach Blair over Iraq : UK general
Dear Tom :
Extraordinary! particularly coming from this general.
Hugs, E
BREAKING NEWS
This story is from our news.com.au network Source: AFP
back PRINT-FRIENDLY VERSION EMAIL THIS STORY
From correspondents in London
January 08, 2006
A LEADING British Army officer believes Prime Minister Tony Blair should
be impeached for his role in the war in Iraq, the Mail on Sunday
reported.
General Sir Michael Rose, a former UN commander in Bosnia, was quoted by
the right-of-centre Mail on Sunday as saying: "I think the politicians
should be held to account ... my view is that Blair should be impeached.
"That would prevent the politicians treating quite so carelessly the
subject of taking a country into war."
A high-profile resignation of a senior armed forces officer before the
start of the March 2003 conflict may also have made the British
Government think twice before sending troops to the Gulf, he added.
"I would not have gone to war on such flimsy grounds," he said.
The newspaper said the comments were made during a television
documentary to be aired on Channel Four television on Friday.
Martin Bell, BBC television's former war correspondent who made the film
- Iraq: The Failure of War - appeared to back the general, writing in
the Mail on Sunday that it was "reasonable" to blame the politicians.
"Ordering the armed forces to war is the most serious decision any
government takes. On Iraq it was taken with a degree of nonchalance
bordering on negligence," said Bell, who is a former independent member
of Parliament.
Rose's opinion revives a call made in November 2004 when 23 MPs filed a
motion to impeach Blair on charges of "gross misconduct" over the US-led
invasion.
Although it fell by the wayside despite attempts by Welsh and Scottish
nationalists to revive it during the general election last May, it was
the first such bid to impeach a prime minister in 198 years.
--
Peter Watson
--
Peter Watson
DVH
"Peter Watson" <Pe...@pwwatson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9N$uGfEla...@pwwatson.demon.co.uk...
> "Ordering the armed forces to war is the most serious decision any
> government takes. On Iraq it was taken with a degree of nonchalance
> bordering on negligence," said Bell, who is a former independent member
> of Parliament.
It was put to a vote in the HoC. For the first time ever.
Chris X
"DVH" <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote in message
news:dprpml$kgd$1...@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
It isn't called the "House of Treason" for nothing, you dopey Zionazi
fuckwit.
DVH
"Chris X" <Chr...@postmaster.co.uk> wrote in message
news:tfednf6ib-H...@giganews.com...
As usual, you post but fail to actually *say* something. Never mind, you'll
get over your little tantrum by tomorrow.
Chris X
Piss off, cripple.
abelard
typed:
you are having a hard time hakky...
is it rag week?
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
energy, education, politics, etc 1,544,346 document calls in year past
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
You mean Blair's pack of lies was put to the HoC and voted upon
and much of his so-called intel was dishonestly classified under
National Security cover - meaning he wouldn't divulge it to MPs.
In reality it didn't exist.
Plus ...it was deliberately timed to be only hours before the actual
invasion with heavy metal already on site etc. It takes a brave
parliamentarian to stand up and say "NO" in that situation as Blair
damn well knew. Add to that, that our MPs are a bunch of traitors
and yes-men and it's not difficult to see how it happened.
As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
arrest warrants?
--
"It [Blair's government] has exploited the mood of insecurity
to push through a law protecting itself from public protest."
How freedom of speech is being curtailed in Britain under Blair:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-1937539,00.html
abelard
<ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
typed:
>As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
>arrest warrants?
one can dream...if only...it'd make it even more likely he'll
try to hang on to power...
hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:19:30 +0000, hummingbird
><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>
> typed:
>
>>As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
>>arrest warrants?
>
>one can dream...if only...it'd make it even more likely he'll
> try to hang on to power...
What's it feel like to be in a no-win situation lardy?
abelard
<ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
typed:
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:22:20 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
> mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>
>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:19:30 +0000, hummingbird
>><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>
>> typed:
>>
>>>As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
>>>arrest warrants?
>>
>>one can dream...if only...it'd make it even more likely he'll
>> try to hang on to power...
>
>What's it feel like to be in a no-win situation lardy?
no idea....i'm not in such a situation....
i have taken cautionary action...
the more he tries to hang on to power the worse for socialism
in the uk...
hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:33:38 +0000, hummingbird
><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>
> typed:
>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:22:20 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
>> mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>>
>>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:19:30 +0000, hummingbird
>>><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>>
>>> typed:
>>>
>>>>As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
>>>>arrest warrants?
>>>
>>>one can dream...if only...it'd make it even more likely he'll
>>> try to hang on to power...
>>
>>What's it feel like to be in a no-win situation lardy?
>
>no idea....i'm not in such a situation....
>i have taken cautionary action...
I will be taking precautionary action when UK commitments allow...
But don't fool yourself. If anything resembling a police state was
introduced in Britain, it would happen in Europe and America too.
The politicians sing from the same hymn sheet.
One needs to get away from the EU and US to be safe.
My choice is obvious.
>the more he tries to hang on to power the worse for socialism
> in the uk...
It remains to be seen how much of his authoritarianism will continue
after his eventual exit. His laws are there and nobody's promising to
repeal or override them by other means...
abelard
<ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
typed:
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:33:40 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
> mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>
>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:33:38 +0000, hummingbird
>><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>
>> typed:
>>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:22:20 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
>>> mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:19:30 +0000, hummingbird
>>>><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>>>
>>>> typed:
>>>>
>>>>>As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
>>>>>arrest warrants?
>>>>
>>>>one can dream...if only...it'd make it even more likely he'll
>>>> try to hang on to power...
>>>
>>>What's it feel like to be in a no-win situation lardy?
>>
>>no idea....i'm not in such a situation....
>>i have taken cautionary action...
>
>I will be taking precautionary action when UK commitments allow...
perhaps i started preparing earlier....and i had studies the rise of
the third reich in considerable detail so i saw it coming....
>But don't fool yourself. If anything resembling a police state was
>introduced in Britain, it would happen in Europe and America too.
>The politicians sing from the same hymn sheet.
i am not convinced of that by any means....
france appears to be moving in the reverse direction and america
has a considerable and functioning constitution....
meanwhile i have other gates ajar....
it is very difficult to keep up with all the data, there are many
'sub-vocal' complaints emanating from italy....
>One needs to get away from the EU and US to be safe.
>My choice is obvious.
socialist heaven.....
>>the more he tries to hang on to power the worse for socialism
>> in the uk...
>
>It remains to be seen how much of his authoritarianism will continue
>after his eventual exit. His laws are there and nobody's promising to
>repeal or override them by other means...
he is taking holidays on the continent and has installed favourites
on the eu gravy train....
James Hammerton
wrote:
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:11:42 +0000, hummingbird
><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>
> typed:
>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:33:40 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
>> mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>>
>>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:33:38 +0000, hummingbird
>>><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>>
>>> typed:
>>>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:22:20 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
>>>> mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 20:19:30 +0000, hummingbird
>>>>><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>>>>
>>>>> typed:
>>>>>
>>>>>>As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
>>>>>>arrest warrants?
>>>>>
>>>>>one can dream...if only...it'd make it even more likely he'll
>>>>> try to hang on to power...
>>>>
>>>>What's it feel like to be in a no-win situation lardy?
>>>
>>>no idea....i'm not in such a situation....
>>>i have taken cautionary action...
>>
>>I will be taking precautionary action when UK commitments allow...
>
>perhaps i started preparing earlier....and i had studies the rise of
> the third reich in considerable detail so i saw it coming....
Can you recommend any books on this topic?
>>But don't fool yourself. If anything resembling a police state was
>>introduced in Britain, it would happen in Europe and America too.
>>The politicians sing from the same hymn sheet.
>
>i am not convinced of that by any means....
Hmmm.
Regarding the EU, there are worrying signs -- e.g. the recent vote to
require communications data to be stored for upto 2 years and made
available to law enforcement authorities for trawling, the EU arrest
warrant, the Schengen Information System, the EU copyright directive,
the ID cards that exist in most EU countries, the recent decision of
the Netherlands to mandate that ID be carried at all times when out in
public, etc.
Sure, Britain has gone much further down the road to a police state
than the rest of the EU, but ISTM the EU is taking steps down this
road too. Mind you ISTM those steps would be quicker and larger had
the constitution gone ahead.
As for the US, there have been various attacks on civil liberties
there too. However the difference has been that there is a fightback
that can actually draw blood, via the constitution.
>france appears to be moving in the reverse direction
Examples?
> and america
> has a considerable and functioning constitution....
>meanwhile i have other gates ajar....
>
>it is very difficult to keep up with all the data, there are many
> 'sub-vocal' complaints emanating from italy....
?
>>One needs to get away from the EU and US to be safe.
>>My choice is obvious.
>
>socialist heaven.....
Where?
>>>the more he tries to hang on to power the worse for socialism
>>> in the uk...
>>
>>It remains to be seen how much of his authoritarianism will continue
>>after his eventual exit. His laws are there and nobody's promising to
>>repeal or override them by other means...
>
>he is taking holidays on the continent and has installed favourites
> on the eu gravy train....
I'm not sure of the relevance of this comment to hummingbird's
statements here.
The question is whether the authoritarianism will remain after Blair
goes. ISTM under New Labour it will.
Under the Tories, I'm not yet convinced it won't, but that relates to
the £64,000 question of whether Cameron means it when he says he'll
stand up for civil liberties...
As for the Lib Dems, who knows what will happen with them?
I've yet to see anyone promise to reverse any of the attacks on civil
liberties Blair has enacted.
James
DVH
"abelard" <abel...@abelard.org> wrote in message
news:b403s1hjh94vgmm7k...@4ax.com...
> there are many
> 'sub-vocal' complaints emanating from italy....
Expand on this if you have an opportunity...
abelard
typed:
friends...
police arbitrariness...
i even see a reduction in the recent economic freedom assessment...
there are other complaints re berlusconi's media control
but i don't take them so seriously...
the country is more tribal(family) than n. europe and you must
be aware of the long term problems in the south/sicily....
i don't know if i can be much use to you on this....i'm not digging
with much energy...
regards..
True Blue
DVH
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 22:04:44 +0000 (UTC), "DVH" <d...@vhvhvhvh.com>
>
> typed:
> >
> >"abelard" <abel...@abelard.org> wrote in message
> >news:b403s1hjh94vgmm7k...@4ax.com...
> >
> >> there are many
> >> 'sub-vocal' complaints emanating from italy....
> >
> >Expand on this if you have an opportunity...
>
> friends...
> police arbitrariness...
> i even see a reduction in the recent economic freedom assessment...
>
> there are other complaints re berlusconi's media control
> but i don't take them so seriously...
>
> the country is more tribal(family) than n. europe and you must
> be aware of the long term problems in the south/sicily....
> i don't know if i can be much use to you on this....i'm not digging
> with much energy...
Fair enough. I see the Italian economy in trouble, and peoples' rights
affected by the list James gives. But I also see its transparency improving
(the Bank of Italy scandal wouldn't have made the light of day ten years
ago), and I believe the Mafia is a shadow of its former self. Criminality is
polarising to certain cities (I suppose this reflects an emptying
countryside), and is less organised than it was. Like you, I don't take
Berlusconi's control of the media seriously, since he's going to lose the
election and some of his media ownership laws will likely be repealed.
But the legal system is a shambles - there are over a million people (!)
"under investigation" and waiting to be tried for anything from riding
without a helmet to murder. Naples has the highest crime rate in Europe and
appears to be definitively fucked (de Crescenzo once called Naples
humanity's last hope). It's Frattini who's been pushing for speech
restriction and data retention laws in Europe.
Just some ideas...
Chris X
news:dps6dh$4sn$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "DVH" <d...@vhvhvhvh.com> wrote in message
> news:dprqa9$iu9$1...@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>> > "Peter Watson" <Pe...@pwwatson.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> > news:9N$uGfEla...@pwwatson.demon.co.uk...
>>> >
>>> >> "Ordering the armed forces to war is the most serious decision any
>>> >> government takes. On Iraq it was taken with a degree of nonchalance
>>> >> bordering on negligence," said Bell, who is a former independent
>>> >> member
>>> >> of Parliament.
>>> >
>>> > It was put to a vote in the HoC. For the first time ever.
>>>
>>> It isn't called the "House of Treason" for nothing, you dopey Zionazi
>>> fuckwit.
>>
>> As usual, you post but fail to actually *say* something. Never mind,
>> you'll
>> get over your little tantrum by tomorrow.
>>
> With regret, he won't.
Look at the Zionazi scum, huddling together for protection.
Harry The Horse
voting for war knew were lies. After all, it was pretty common knowledge
outside the Commons that the WMD were a figment of the imagination.
abelard
<jamesha...@yahoo.co.uk>
i doubt it...i've probably read around 200 books(every time i look i
get amazed at how many i have looked at and often forgotten!)
cover to cover...
my web document/s on hitler are sommat of a distillation....
i've also read a considerable pile on the foundations of israel...
mostly linked to the kibbutzim....
i've read most of the useful stuff on ford who is very relevant to
the rise of adolf....
perhaps one thing i may mention is the fundy's hatred of 'fun'/levity....
that puritanism was an emotional driving element...it wasn't like
that in the olden days...
some look at the prussianisation (but i haven't)
in some ways it is a long gone world...
remember i study it much more as a psychologist than with much interest
in politics of history...
vee must haff order....bunch of sheep...take me to my leader....
i hardly know where to start....
the foolish response of common jewry who just treated it as another
nuisance that could be lived through...'business as usual' struck me
most forcibly....
a revulsion toward any culture that was not crude and/or predictable
a foolish widespread belief that the centrally organised state must
'triumph' over individualism and effete/corrupt/dilletante
democracy....
but they didn't have the awful examples or experiences of socialist
states as a warning then....and even as a badly failed model....
the modernism that declared 'god' was dead...and with it the placing
of the collective above the individual/human....
it was the break down of the rule of law under h***** that was the
last straw for me....
but i also had personal experience of arbitrary illegal actions....
the rule of prejudice in place of any rule of law...
retrospective so-called 'laws'....
this breakdown of genuine law is manifest in the rise of national
socialism
>>>But don't fool yourself. If anything resembling a police state was
>>>introduced in Britain, it would happen in Europe and America too.
>>>The politicians sing from the same hymn sheet.
>>
>>i am not convinced of that by any means....
>
>Hmmm.
all i said was i am not convinced...
i take more account of culture than perhaps is usual....
also southern europe is catholic by culture...not prod....
>Regarding the EU, there are worrying signs -- e.g. the recent vote to
>require communications data to be stored for upto 2 years and made
>available to law enforcement authorities for trawling, the EU arrest
>warrant, the Schengen Information System, the EU copyright directive,
>the ID cards that exist in most EU countries, the recent decision of
>the Netherlands to mandate that ID be carried at all times when out in
>public, etc.
see above....
i don't know if this is factual yet...from a papal source
". In fact, this year, well, last year, actually. 2005, there were more
Muslims born in France than people of traditional French background.
Within four years, the top four cities in Holland will be...most populous
cities, will have a Muslim majority."
>Sure, Britain has gone much further down the road to a police state
>than the rest of the EU, but ISTM the EU is taking steps down this
>road too. Mind you ISTM those steps would be quicker and larger had
>the constitution gone ahead.
and it was rejected despite all the power of the state machine behind it..
>As for the US, there have been various attacks on civil liberties
>there too. However the difference has been that there is a fightback
>that can actually draw blood, via the constitution.
exactly....
>>france appears to be moving in the reverse direction
>
>Examples?
much more devolution...loosening up some regulations....right to
silence fairly recently in place (as i understand it)....a variety of
civil contracts now available in place of 'marriage'...
but the culture is also much more anarchic and sceptical of pols...
i also have rights here recently taken away by bliar (which i will not
print here)...
civil action is a normal reaction to gov't 'overstepping'
on top of that the people are *far less* aggressive on the streets
(although i'm not so sure of the ghettoes)....even the customers
greet you when you walk into smaller shops....
>> and america
>> has a considerable and functioning constitution....
>>meanwhile i have other gates ajar....
>>
>>it is very difficult to keep up with all the data, there are many
>> 'sub-vocal' complaints emanating from italy....
>
>?
see other attempt at other post here
>>>One needs to get away from the EU and US to be safe.
>>>My choice is obvious.
>>
>>socialist heaven.....
>
>Where?
he must out himself :-) i won't
>>>>the more he tries to hang on to power the worse for socialism
>>>> in the uk...
>>>
>>>It remains to be seen how much of his authoritarianism will continue
>>>after his eventual exit. His laws are there and nobody's promising to
>>>repeal or override them by other means...
>>
>>he is taking holidays on the continent and has installed favourites
>> on the eu gravy train....
>
>I'm not sure of the relevance of this comment to hummingbird's
>statements here.
i will make a wild guess that he has no intention of living with the mess
he has helped to create...
>The question is whether the authoritarianism will remain after Blair
>goes. ISTM under New Labour it will.
agreed on both
>Under the Tories, I'm not yet convinced it won't, but that relates to
>the £64,000 question of whether Cameron means it when he says he'll
>stand up for civil liberties...
indeed...
>As for the Lib Dems, who knows what will happen with them?
sommat nasty and painful if they get what they richly deserve
>I've yet to see anyone promise to reverse any of the attacks on civil
>liberties Blair has enacted.
indeed...
i just listened to a radio prog...the end result was 2:1 that all baybees
should be dna'd at birth...and the idiots who voted had to pay 10p a
vote...
the problem goes well beyond government...as above...i look also at
culture...another bunch of mindless sheep just as germany in the
30s...
regards...
abelard
that all seems about right to me...
>But the legal system is a shambles - there are over a million people (!)
>"under investigation" and waiting to be tried for anything from riding
>without a helmet to murder. Naples has the highest crime rate in Europe and
>appears to be definitively fucked (de Crescenzo once called Naples
>humanity's last hope). It's Frattini who's been pushing for speech
>restriction and data retention laws in Europe.
indeed...
law is not what it often seems...it is useful to know people...
many local areas are effectively controlled by corrupt juntas...
but we also have socialist councils!
but there are not undertones of 'removal' and law for sale (to the
same extent)
>Just some ideas...
regards
abelard
typed:
he's extremely moody...he's up for a day...he's down for
an hour...
but he probably doesn't have the attention span of a willow
warbler...
regards...
Chris X
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 23:15:32 -0000, "True Blue" <true...@yahoo.co.uk>
>>>> >> "Ordering the armed forces to war is the most serious decision any
>>>> >> government takes. On Iraq it was taken with a degree of nonchalance
>>>> >> bordering on negligence," said Bell, who is a former independent
>>>> >> member
>>>> >> of Parliament.
>>>> >
>>>> > It was put to a vote in the HoC. For the first time ever.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't called the "House of Treason" for nothing, you dopey Zionazi
>>>> fuckwit.
>>>
>>> As usual, you post but fail to actually *say* something. Never mind,
>>> you'll
>>> get over your little tantrum by tomorrow.
>>>
>>With regret, he won't.
>
> he's extremely moody...he's up for a day...he's down for
> an hour...
> but he probably doesn't have the attention span of a willow
> warbler...
Flock together, my little puppets ....
abelard
typed:
right you are master...
and you tuck up and have a nice sleepy byes....
Chris X
You too, Mad Ol' Uncle Abie .... Brrrrrrr ..... it's a three yak night
tonight :))
abelard
typed:
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:04:51 +0000, James Hammerton
><jamesha...@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> typed:
>>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 22:20:11 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
>>>france appears to be moving in the reverse direction
>>
>>Examples?
>
>much more devolution...loosening up some regulations....right to
> silence fairly recently in place (as i understand it)....a variety of
> civil contracts now available in place of 'marriage'...
>but the culture is also much more anarchic and sceptical of pols...
>i also have rights here recently taken away by bliar (which i will not
> print here)...
>civil action is a normal reaction to gov't 'overstepping'
>on top of that the people are *far less* aggressive on the streets
> (although i'm not so sure of the ghettoes)....even the customers
> greet you when you walk into smaller shops....
you may like this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4588160.stm
regards..
Boed...@isp.com
If every Labour, Conservative, Lib Dim and every other M.P. in
Parliament had voted
their true feelings and the wishes of their constituents instead of
following their party's instructions, the motion to go to war would
have been defeated. So the question is
why didn't they? What a mess it has become. Thousands dead and
maimed,
an ancient nation decimated, chaos every single day, billions
wasted and for
what - to put one man in prison. Blair should be tried for treason,
not impeached.
How many dead today and who benefited from it?
hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>On Sun, 08 Jan 2006 21:11:42 +0000, hummingbird
><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>>>>>As I wrote recently - will Blair spend his life after No.10 dodging
>>>>>>arrest warrants?
>>>>>
>>>>>one can dream...if only...it'd make it even more likely he'll
>>>>> try to hang on to power...
>>>>
>>>>What's it feel like to be in a no-win situation lardy?
>>>
>>>no idea....i'm not in such a situation....
>>>i have taken cautionary action...
>>
>>I will be taking precautionary action when UK commitments allow...
>
>perhaps i started preparing earlier....and i had studies the rise of
> the third reich in considerable detail so i saw it coming....
I bought a piece of land ~4 years ago. Arrangements are now being
made to build! but I have unavoidable commitments in the UK atm.
>>But don't fool yourself. If anything resembling a police state was
>>introduced in Britain, it would happen in Europe and America too.
>>The politicians sing from the same hymn sheet.
>
>i am not convinced of that by any means....
You should be. One example off my head: the various fake money
laundering laws which started life in the US and within several years
were introduced in Britain (under Thatcher) and across Europe. The
US produces the blueprint for others to localise. More recent laws
to open up tax havens have become standard across all OECD members.
Many other examples can be found.
No western govt wants to get 'left behind' because it affects their
prestige, standing and influence in the global politico members club.
>france appears to be moving in the reverse direction and america
> has a considerable and functioning constitution....
It also has more police state laws per square foot than most other
western countries and the constitution has been trampled on for years.
Plus Tommy Franks and Bush wiretapping.
>meanwhile i have other gates ajar....
>
>it is very difficult to keep up with all the data, there are many
> 'sub-vocal' complaints emanating from italy....
A new fascist state brewing if ever I saw one. Even the footballers
are waving their arms!
>>One needs to get away from the EU and US to be safe.
>>My choice is obvious.
>
>socialist heaven.....
It's relative.
>>>the more he tries to hang on to power the worse for socialism
>>> in the uk...
>>
>>It remains to be seen how much of his authoritarianism will continue
>>after his eventual exit. His laws are there and nobody's promising to
>>repeal or override them by other means...
>
>he is taking holidays on the continent and has installed favourites
> on the eu gravy train....
There you are then. Ditto in Europe. One shouldn't ignore the close
relationships Blair had with Aznar (married to one of the Francos)
and still with Burlosconi.
Authoritarianism is the order of the day for the foreseeable future.
hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
[snip]
>it was the break down of the rule of law under h***** that was the
> last straw for me....
I think you place too much emphasis on him. Any govt can operate
within the law simply by passing new laws, and with a compliant
parliament it does just that as we see under Blair.
What is noteworthy is the 'two steps forward and one step back'
pattern, meaning that the noose gets tightened but not always at
the pace favoured by those in power...but it still happens.
Compare the slow-tightening over the last 25 years. Few notice.
I don't think so. The US constitution has been trampled on for decades
and although it continues to provide some protection, it's a shadow of
its former self: Bush illegal wire-tapping under his fake so-called
'never ending war on terror', Gitmo etc, arrest and detention with
little or no evidence, huge corruption scandals etc. Nixon II.
Remember also it's the US who are driving the bio-passport system
but hiding behind the facade of an Intl body.
There are some differences between the US and European models being
followed (the US is more corporate, Europe is more statist) but not
too significant to an ordinary citizen when looking at the end result.
>>>france appears to be moving in the reverse direction
>>
>>Examples?
>
>much more devolution...loosening up some regulations....right to
> silence fairly recently in place (as i understand it)....a variety of
> civil contracts now available in place of 'marriage'...
The latter also recently introduced in Britain.
Some argue this makes them more FREE.
>but the culture is also much more anarchic and sceptical of pols...
I'd agree with that. Brits always prefer strong dictatorial leaders.
That's why Thatcher got in and it's why Blair stays in.
Britain is well stocked with little Hitlers, always has been.
>i also have rights here recently taken away by bliar (which i will not
> print here)...
>civil action is a normal reaction to gov't 'overstepping'
>on top of that the people are *far less* aggressive on the streets
> (although i'm not so sure of the ghettoes)....even the customers
> greet you when you walk into smaller shops....
Britain chooses to follow America, France doesn't.
>>> and america
>>> has a considerable and functioning constitution....
>>>meanwhile i have other gates ajar....
>>>
>>>it is very difficult to keep up with all the data, there are many
>>> 'sub-vocal' complaints emanating from italy....
>>
>>?
>
>see other attempt at other post here
>
>>>>One needs to get away from the EU and US to be safe.
>>>>My choice is obvious.
>>>
>>>socialist heaven.....
>>
>>Where?
>
>he must out himself :-) i won't
hhmmm.
>>>>>the more he tries to hang on to power the worse for socialism
>>>>> in the uk...
>>>>
>>>>It remains to be seen how much of his authoritarianism will continue
>>>>after his eventual exit. His laws are there and nobody's promising to
>>>>repeal or override them by other means...
>>>
>>>he is taking holidays on the continent and has installed favourites
>>> on the eu gravy train....
>>
>>I'm not sure of the relevance of this comment to hummingbird's
>>statements here.
>
>i will make a wild guess that he has no intention of living with the mess
> he has helped to create...
That's possible but in Europe he may be looking over his shoulder
every day. I'd guess he would prefer to go where so many ex-despots
and dictators have gone before to live out retirement.
>>The question is whether the authoritarianism will remain after Blair
>>goes. ISTM under New Labour it will.
>
>agreed on both
>
>>Under the Tories, I'm not yet convinced it won't, but that relates to
>>the £64,000 question of whether Cameron means it when he says he'll
>>stand up for civil liberties...
>
>indeed...
>
>>As for the Lib Dems, who knows what will happen with them?
>
>sommat nasty and painful if they get what they richly deserve
>
>>I've yet to see anyone promise to reverse any of the attacks on civil
>>liberties Blair has enacted.
>
>indeed...
>i just listened to a radio prog...the end result was 2:1 that all baybees
> should be dna'd at birth...and the idiots who voted had to pay 10p a
> vote...
>the problem goes well beyond government...as above...i look also at
> culture...another bunch of mindless sheep just as germany in the
> 30s...
"It couldn't happen here" is what they cry.
abelard
<ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
typed:
>On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 00:31:44 +0100, abelard <abel...@abelard.org>
> mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>
>[snip]
>
>>it was the break down of the rule of law under h***** that was the
>> last straw for me....
>
>I think you place too much emphasis on him.
no, i merely study/ied him as a very useful example...
1)there is *vast* data available on him and his acts
2)he got thechance to play out his idiotic fantasies....
>Any govt can operate
>within the law simply by passing new laws, and with a compliant
>parliament it does just that as we see under Blair.
collectivism is the main clue...
an all intrusive state where the jobsworths can do as they please is
another...
hitler ran an controlled anarchy in part...he worked on a principle
of survival of the 'fittest' and set people against one another
to fight for power...
bliar/h***** are generating elements of anarchy by
1)not enforcing the 'law'...
2)continually complexifying the 'law'.....
3)making a legion of petty 'laws'
in theory...
in roman law the basis is fact....
in uk law it is precedent...
this has become in the uk the judges doing pretty well as they please...
a large proportion of those judges are extremely shallow and carried
away by power and by their prejudices....
maybe that was always so...i'm no historian....
my general impression of them as a group is they are flying mad...
(i'll add uk.legal)
to avoid this roman law (tries to) insist the judges carry out the letter
of the law...even when the law is mad...and work to change
bad (idiotic) laws
>What is noteworthy is the 'two steps forward and one step back'
>pattern, meaning that the noose gets tightened but not always at
>the pace favoured by those in power...but it still happens.
that cannot be so or
no country would go from enslavement to freedom(freer)
>Compare the slow-tightening over the last 25 years. Few notice.
very complex...if you are a sheep you have nothing to fear...
or perhaps you just don't notice when you are turned into
lamb chops
>>>As for the US, there have been various attacks on civil liberties
>>>there too. However the difference has been that there is a fightback
>>>that can actually draw blood, via the constitution.
>>
>>exactly....
>
>I don't think so. The US constitution has been trampled on for decades
>and although it continues to provide some protection, it's a shadow of
>its former self: Bush illegal wire-tapping under his fake so-called
>'never ending war on terror', Gitmo etc, arrest and detention with
>little or no evidence, huge corruption scandals etc. Nixon II.
>
>Remember also it's the US who are driving the bio-passport system
>but hiding behind the facade of an Intl body.
>
>There are some differences between the US and European models being
>followed (the US is more corporate, Europe is more statist) but not
>too significant to an ordinary citizen when looking at the end result.
i regard that difference as vital....
the rest of your comments here i regard as exagerated...probably to the
point of paranoia...
>>>>france appears to be moving in the reverse direction
>>>
>>>Examples?
>>
>>much more devolution...loosening up some regulations....right to
>> silence fairly recently in place (as i understand it)....a variety of
>> civil contracts now available in place of 'marriage'...
>
>The latter also recently introduced in Britain.
>Some argue this makes them more FREE.
it does...it gets the state one step out of the bedroom....
that process has much improved over 50+ years....forced adoptions,
putting girls in nut houses for decades because they got pregnant...
back street abortion...10 years prison for homosexuality and more
were common in the uk fairly recently....
>>but the culture is also much more anarchic and sceptical of pols...
>
>I'd agree with that. Brits always prefer strong dictatorial leaders.
>That's why Thatcher got in and it's why Blair stays in.
>Britain is well stocked with little Hitlers, always has been.
the history of the ruling classes pre-war in the uk does not paint them
as sheeplike...but, they did lose much of a generation in the
trenches
mosley didn't catch on in the uk...equivalents did on the continent...
but imv the critical issue was pr...
>>i also have rights here recently taken away by bliar (which i will not
>> print here)...
>>civil action is a normal reaction to gov't 'overstepping'
>>on top of that the people are *far less* aggressive on the streets
>> (although i'm not so sure of the ghettoes)....even the customers
>> greet you when you walk into smaller shops....
>
>Britain chooses to follow America, France doesn't.
c'mon...the frog gov't is in a constant tizz just because the american
culture is so alluring....
they also have an inferiority complex/chips on shoulders etc....
>>i will make a wild guess that he [bliar] has no intention of living with the mess
>> he has helped to create...
>
>That's possible but in Europe he may be looking over his shoulder
>every day. I'd guess he would prefer to go where so many ex-despots
>and dictators have gone before to live out retirement.
or saudi!
>>>I've yet to see anyone promise to reverse any of the attacks on civil
>>>liberties Blair has enacted.
>>
>>indeed...
>>i just listened to a radio prog...the end result was 2:1 that all baybees
>> should be dna'd at birth...and the idiots who voted had to pay 10p a
>> vote...
>>the problem goes well beyond government...as above...i look also at
>> culture...another bunch of mindless sheep just as germany in the
>> 30s...
>
>"It couldn't happen here" is what they cry.
--
hummingbird
mysteriously appeared thru the usenet mist to inform us thus...
>On Mon, 09 Jan 2006 13:14:17 +0000, hummingbird
><ZYLYDW...@spammotel.com>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>it was the break down of the rule of law under h***** that was the
>>> last straw for me....
>>
>>I think you place too much emphasis on him.
>
>no, i merely study/ied him as a very useful example...
But I don't think he was *that* dangerous if you compare him to the
current thugs, although the change to authoritarianism started under
Major and may have continued if he'd stayed in power.
But we cannot throw muck at Howard for what he *might* have done.
>1)there is *vast* data available on him and his acts
1994 CJA, and I seem to recall he got an injunction against the FT(?)
preventing them from even mentioning a dodgy deal he was involved in.
But imv Blunkett was/is far more dangerous (egged on by Blair as a
very hands-on bossman setting the agenda) and is a very nasty man
better suited to a rubbish tip somewhere.
>2)he got thechance to play out his idiotic fantasies....
Blame John Major-Disaster for that.
But I struggle to think of any Home Secretary who hasn't. Even Ken
Clarke dreampt up a system of automatic driving bans which only died
away when someone realised it would alienate Tory voters. This same
man also coined the term "UK plc" which I strongly disagree with.
>>Any govt can operate
>>within the law simply by passing new laws, and with a compliant
>>parliament it does just that as we see under Blair.
>
>collectivism is the main clue...
>an all intrusive state where the jobsworths can do as they please is
> another...
It's been a trend for some years even under the Tories (the money
laundering laws, the politicisation of the police).
>hitler ran an controlled anarchy in part...he worked on a principle
> of survival of the 'fittest' and set people against one another
> to fight for power...
fyi -
That *was* **standard practice** in IBM for years. The corporation
was deliberately structured that way. Internal survival always took
priority over customers. It took me 10 years to have that recognised
and eventually changed.
>bliar/h***** are generating elements of anarchy by
>1)not enforcing the 'law'...
No difference here to any other past government. Law enforcement
went out the window when it started rising to uncontrollable levels.
Apart from massively increasing police numbers, there's no alternative
unless you stop introducing new laws in the first place.
>2)continually complexifying the 'law'.....
I agree with this but I fail to see why it happens, apart from utter
incompetence within govt.
>3)making a legion of petty 'laws'
I see that largely as Blair trying to play the new messiah:
"vote for me and I'll stop this/that and make you happy".
>in theory...
>in roman law the basis is fact....
>in uk law it is precedent...
>
>this has become in the uk the judges doing pretty well as they please...
> a large proportion of those judges are extremely shallow and carried
> away by power and by their prejudices....
> maybe that was always so...i'm no historian....
>my general impression of them as a group is they are flying mad...
>(i'll add uk.legal)
That doesn't by itself show Blair in a bad light.
>to avoid this roman law (tries to) insist the judges carry out the letter
> of the law...even when the law is mad...and work to change
> bad (idiotic) laws
>
>>What is noteworthy is the 'two steps forward and one step back'
>>pattern, meaning that the noose gets tightened but not always at
>>the pace favoured by those in power...but it still happens.
>
>that cannot be so or
>no country would go from enslavement to freedom(freer)
I refer to the UK. Limitations on personal freedoms are significant
compared to 50 years ago. New freedoms are those which the govt
condescend to give: "we shall decide what freedoms you will/will not
have". All dictators make concessions to keep the masses happy and
they spend much time/effort monitoring the temperature...
>>Compare the slow-tightening over the last 25 years. Few notice.
>
>very complex
It's not if you look for the common denominator which I describe
immediately above.
Q,what's the common link between a few new freedoms handed out
by Blair and the reduction in other freedoms?
A,it is the government who always decide. You have no inalienable
rights. IOW your freedoms are only those which are granted by
government and the Tories are just as guilty of this for years as
Blair.
>...if you are a sheep you have nothing to fear...
> or perhaps you just don't notice when you are turned into
> lamb chops
>
>>>>As for the US, there have been various attacks on civil liberties
>>>>there too. However the difference has been that there is a fightback
>>>>that can actually draw blood, via the constitution.
>>>
>>>exactly....
>>
>>I don't think so. The US constitution has been trampled on for decades
>>and although it continues to provide some protection, it's a shadow of
>>its former self: Bush illegal wire-tapping under his fake so-called
>>'never ending war on terror', Gitmo etc, arrest and detention with
>>little or no evidence, huge corruption scandals etc. Nixon II.
>>
>>Remember also it's the US who are driving the bio-passport system
>>but hiding behind the facade of an Intl body.
>>
>>There are some differences between the US and European models being
>>followed (the US is more corporate, Europe is more statist) but not
>>too significant to an ordinary citizen when looking at the end result.
>
>i regard that difference as vital....
I'm sure you do but the difference I alluded to is ultimately between
fascism and Stalinism. The US = 21c fascism, EU = 21c Stalinism.
>the rest of your comments here i regard as exagerated...probably to the
> point of paranoia...
?
>>>>>france appears to be moving in the reverse direction
>>>>
>>>>Examples?
>>>
>>>much more devolution...loosening up some regulations....right to
>>> silence fairly recently in place (as i understand it)....a variety of
>>> civil contracts now available in place of 'marriage'...
>>
>>The latter also recently introduced in Britain.
>>Some argue this makes them more FREE.
>
>it does...it gets the state one step out of the bedroom....
>that process has much improved over 50+ years....forced adoptions,
> putting girls in nut houses for decades because they got pregnant...
> back street abortion...10 years prison for homosexuality and more
>were common in the uk fairly recently....
But all of these changes were 'granted' by government.
>>>but the culture is also much more anarchic and sceptical of pols...
>>
>>I'd agree with that. Brits always prefer strong dictatorial leaders.
>>That's why Thatcher got in and it's why Blair stays in.
>>Britain is well stocked with little Hitlers, always has been.
>
>the history of the ruling classes pre-war in the uk does not paint them
> as sheeplike...but, they did lose much of a generation in the
> trenches
>mosley didn't catch on in the uk...equivalents did on the continent...
> but imv the critical issue was pr...
I see little difference between the Mosleys and the standard British
culture, except in degree.
>>>i also have rights here recently taken away by bliar (which i will not
>>> print here)...
>>>civil action is a normal reaction to gov't 'overstepping'
>>>on top of that the people are *far less* aggressive on the streets
>>> (although i'm not so sure of the ghettoes)....even the customers
>>> greet you when you walk into smaller shops....
>>
>>Britain chooses to follow America, France doesn't.
>
>c'mon...the frog gov't is in a constant tizz just because the american
> culture is so alluring....
So why don't they adopt it?
>they also have an inferiority complex/chips on shoulders etc....
Loss of empire.
>>>i will make a wild guess that he [bliar] has no intention of living with the mess
>>> he has helped to create...
>>
>>That's possible but in Europe he may be looking over his shoulder
>>every day. I'd guess he would prefer to go where so many ex-despots
>>and dictators have gone before to live out retirement.
>
>or saudi!
Florida/NY/New England is much more likely imv ...less travelling to
speaking engagements.
>>>>I've yet to see anyone promise to reverse any of the attacks on civil
>>>>liberties Blair has enacted.
>>>
>>>indeed...
>>>i just listened to a radio prog...the end result was 2:1 that all baybees
>>> should be dna'd at birth...and the idiots who voted had to pay 10p a
>>> vote...
>>>the problem goes well beyond government...as above...i look also at
>>> culture...another bunch of mindless sheep just as germany in the
>>> 30s...
>>
>>"It couldn't happen here" is what they cry.
--