Iraq and terrorism (was Re: at last...dawning realism over iraq......)
James Hammerton
evidence that Iraq wants to attack the US/UK, and backed it up with
the line that Saddam is unlikely to provoke his own nuking.
I have pointed out Saddam has the motives to attack the US/UK
(revenge, pressure to remove sanctions and/or to get the West out of
the mid east so that he can take over the area/attack Israel, etc),
and if he were to do it via a terrorist group he might calculate that
the ensuing lack of direct evidence of Saddam's involvement would
prevent a nuking. Saddam might note that various of his neighbours in
the mid east have been linked to Islamic terrorists and even al Qaeda
without being nuked or having much action (yet) taken against them.
Indeed the only clear example of a regime being punished for
supporting such groups at the moment is the Taliban. Saddam has in
fact supported the suicide bombers who attack Israel.
ISTM clear therefore that Saddam might well consider giving support to
terrorist groups, and there is a danger he might include giving them
WMDs or sufficient components/knowledge and financial support for them
to develop WMDs for themselves.
Sunil appears to regard this sort of thing as paranoid delusion.
But I can add more concrete stuff to the above. There *is* evidence
linking Saddam to Islamic terrorists and even al-Qaeda and it goes
back for years, e.g.:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/politicsphilosophyandsociety/0,6121,631683,00.html
A review of a book suggesting Saddam is behind earlier attacks
against
America (WTC bombing of '93 for example), and is using Islamist
groups as a
smokescreen.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,384768,00.html
Article on possible cooperation between Iraq/AQ over USS Cole
bombing.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/bin/Story/0,2763,208761,00.html
Article about meeting between Iraqi govt officials and bin Laden's
people in
Afghanistan in 1999.
http://www.observer.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,591439,00.html
Article on possible links between 11 Sept 01 hijackers and Iraq.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/2149499.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/2146517.stm
Reports on al-Qaeda setting up in Iraq after fleeing Afghanistan.
I note that Iran is also implicated.
James
maria.thomson
wrote:
<snip>
I will read what you posted, because I always do, though many of the
alleged links I have read about are extremely tenuous and speculative.
However, I still believe that if there was a single credible shred of
evidence to link Saddam Hussein with attacks on the US, I have no
doubt that Mr Bush would be shouting it from the rooftops (quite
rightly so).
He would have no need to make such an effort trying to garner support
for an attack on Iraq as he did not have to to attack Afghanistan.
He certainly would not have any need to revoke the old 'Saddam Has
WMD's' argument which has worn so thin with so many people.
Another question; when it is *known* that so many other countries
knowingly host aQ operatives, including Saudi and Iran, why pick on
the one country for which the 'proof' is so tenuous, that it has been
virtually dismissed?
Dr. Sunil
'Suggesting'?
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,384768,00.html
>
> Article on possible cooperation between Iraq/AQ over USS Cole
> bombing.
'Possible'?
> http://www.observer.co.uk/focus/story/0,6903,591439,00.html
>
> Article on possible links between 11 Sept 01 hijackers and Iraq.
'Possible'?
Tamas Gyursanszky
>> There *is* evidence linking Saddam to Islamic terrorists
>> and even al-Qaeda and it goes back for years
[...]
There is *more* evidence linking Washington to Islamic
terrorists and al-Qaeda and that mutual back-scratching
goes back even more years...
U.S. supported al-Qaeda cells during Balkan Wars
Fought serbian troops
National Post
Isabel Vincent
Friday, March 15, 2002
"Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorist network
has been active in the Balkans for years, most
recently helping Kosovo rebels battle for
independence from Serbia with the financial
and military backing of the United States and
NATO.
...
James Bissett, former Canadian ambassador to
Yugoslavia and an expert on the Balkans said
"There is no question of their participation
in conflicts in the Balkans. It is very well
documented."
...
The United States, which had originally trained
the Afghan Arabs during the war in Afghanistan,
supported them in Bosnia and then in Kosovo.
...
In the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist strikes
on the United States, NATO began to worry about
the presence in the Balkans of the Islamist
terrorist cells it had supported throughout the
1990s.
...
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/story.html?f=/stories/20020315/344843.html
John O
the US. Funny: one might say the same about Bush toward Iraq.
You then point out that there are possible links between Iraq and terrorist
organisations. These would be entirely different from the links between the
US and all sorts of subversive and terrorist groups around the world.
Let me guess: you are seeking equity from the UN, so you want us to bomb
Saddam AND the US.
"James Hammerton" <ja...@tardis.ed.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:ac9b705c.02091...@posting.google.com...
Dr. Sunil
> Sunil, in earlier posts has put forward the line that there is no
> evidence that Iraq wants to attack the US/UK, and backed it up with
> the line that Saddam is unlikely to provoke his own nuking.
>
Just in case you missed it yesterday, I'm dedicating the following to you, James!
In a smaller, adjacent, shrub-hemmed field, Corporal Sunil was
supervising, mostly, as the Iraqi prisoner covered the British bodies
with rocks gathered at the remains of the stone fence surrounding the
Iraqi army post that had been dismantled by an LGB days before.
Sunil and the prisoner had potato-sack hauled the nine bodies here
- the ambushed SAS patrol and Greg Hennessy - and it was a hard,
grisly,
thankless task.
Sunil had seen it that Greg was taken care of first, and now all but
two of the Special Forces personnel had been covered with the stones,
the Iraqi's breath heaving with toil and fear, his boyish face
blood-streaked, his hands stained red. The corporal was marking each
temporary, aboveground grave with a machine gun, alerting the burial
squads to these British bodies. Now and then the Arab's eyes would
meet Sunil's cold gaze, and the prisoner would work harder, even more
industriously covering up the carnage he'd help create.
Finally Sunil told the prisoner to take a break, and they both sat on
the ground. Sunil lighted up a cigarette, but being a non-smoker
immediately offered it to the Iraqi, who had been watching hungrily.
'British cigarette,' the Arab said, puffing, grinning crazily,
desperately. 'I like British...er...Grommit...er...Wrong trousers!
Close Shave!'
Sunil nodded, smiling, 'Yeah, that's right. Wallace and Grommit. A
Grand Day out, The Wrong Trousers, and then A Close Shave.'
'Yah! Wallace and Grommit!'
They were still sitting when Captain Abelard came tromping into the
field, followed by Sergeant Steve Glynn, and the rest of the squad,
what was
left of it anyway: James Hammerton, Marc Living, and the lone American
attached to the squad, Bill Willis.
'Get him off his Arab arse,' Marc snarled.
Sunil rose, and the Iraqi mimicked him, pitching his cigarette.
Abelard
went from grave to grave, removing ammo from the machine guns Sunil
had set there, deactivating the weapons. Steve followed, as if he were
tidying up after the captain, gathering the extra ammo. Machine guns
in hand, James and Marc and Bill moved slowly, ominously towards the
prisoner, forming a loose semi-circle around him. The Arab took
anxious notice of this, and went back to stacking rocks atop the body,
as if getting the corpses covered would make his problem go away.
He muttered something in Arabic, nodding to the rock-pile graves,
still working feverishly, proving his worth, his obedience. He
repeated the muttering.
'He says he's not finished yet,' Sunil said.
'That's what he thinks,' Marc said. 'You're finished, alright,
rag-head!'
Marc grabbed the prisoner by his camouflage shirt, and Bill joined in.
They dragged him from the stony grave, the latest rock slipping from
his fingers, his face contorted with fear as he cried out in
Arabic. And the Iraqi pulled away from his captors, scooping up
the rock he dropped, and hastily returned to covering up the corpses.
The sound of James racking his machine gun off safety froze the
prisoner, and he carefully got to his feet and turned to face them.
'Please,' he said in English, pleadingly. 'I like Britain.' His accent
was thick, almost stereotypically Middle-Eastern, his teeth bared in a
miserable, desperate excuse for a smile. 'How do you do? Nice to meet
you! Do you have the time?'
Bill racked his machine gun off safety. The Arab began to laugh,
softly, hysterically. Tears were welling as he said, 'Kate Moss! What
a dish! Tara Parker-Tomkinson? Nice gams!' And the prisoner lifted his
slacks to the knees, laughing.
Marc racked his machine gun off safety. The Iraqi stood straight now,
his legs still exposed. He sang, 'God save our gracious Queen...' That
was all he knew; he kept singing it again and again. 'God save our
gracious Queen...God save our gracious Queen....'
The three privates were standing in firing-squad fashion now, facing
the prisoner. Sickened, Sunil looked away. Abelard was still
dismantling machine guns, Steve gathering ammo, as if completely
unaware, or anyway unconcerned, about what was happening. The young
prisoner finally played his trump card:
'Fuck Saddam!' he glanced first at Sunil, then at the privates.
'Fuck Saddam!'
'Fuck you!' James said. The prisoner lurched for Sunil, grabbing his
arm, and spewed a terrified stream of Arabic at the corporal.
Sunil called to Abelard, 'Sir, he says he's sorry about Greg. I don't
think he was the gunner, sir!'
'Tell him 'sorry' don't cut the mustard,' Bill said, the big machine
gun loose and deadly in the American's hands. 'Tell him my piles bleed
for him.'
'tell him...,' Abelard finally said, 'the war's over for him....' The
squad members were nodding, Marc saying, 'Fuckin' 'ell,' and Abelard
was dropping the last of the disarmed machine guns down and striding
over to the Iraqi. A handkerchief came from one of the captain's
pockets and he swiftly tied it around the Arab's head, in blindfold
fashion.
'Sir,' Sunil said softly but urgently, 'this isn't right.'
Abelard knew that Sunil had very pro-Iraq sympathies before the Blair
government introduced the draft in preparation for this land war, but
the captain replied without umbrage.
'just tell him, corporal....tell him what I just said....'
Nodding, Sunil then whispered to the Arab. Abelard spun the prisoner
around, so that his back was towards the squad. Resigned to whatever
Abelard's order might be, Steve reluctantly fell in line with the
others and racked his weapon off safety. The prisoner jumped. Abelard
looked at his squad - Marc's eyes were glittering, Bill's were hooded
with a hunter's nonchalance, James's were as dead as the stones
covering the corpses.
Then Abelard said to Sunil, 'tell him to march two hundred paces and
wait until he can't hear us anymore.....then he's to surrender himself
to the first nato patrol he runs into.....'
'What?' James said, shaking his head as if his ears were lying to him.
'Wait a goddam minute - '
'Yes, sir,' Sunil said, relieved, but careful not to smile. And to the
young Iraqi he repeated Abelard's order in Arabic. Then the
captain checked the blindfold, snugging the knot tight, then patted
the Arab twice on the shoulder, signalling him to take off, which he
did.
'Close shave,' the Iraqi smiled, and said something like farewell
in the vernacular. Sunil allowed himself a smile. The former
prisoner's erstwhile captors watched him disappear into the distance,
singing
what sounded like, 'It's coming home, it's coming home!' until he was
too far away for them to hear anything.
* * * * * * * * *
James Hammerton
> On 12 Sep 2002 09:22:27 -0700, ja...@tardis.ed.ac.uk (James Hammerton)
> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> I will read what you posted, because I always do, though many of the
> alleged links I have read about are extremely tenuous and speculative.
> However, I still believe that if there was a single credible shred of
> evidence to link Saddam Hussein with attacks on the US, I have no
> doubt that Mr Bush would be shouting it from the rooftops (quite
> rightly so).
That depends on whether publicising the information would jeopardise
US intelligence operations against the terrorists. But I'd imagine he
would be trying to get some version of it out that doesn't if so. Mind
you if he were shouting such evidence from the rooftops would you, and
the other anti-war posters believe him?
> He would have no need to make such an effort trying to garner support
> for an attack on Iraq as he did not have to to attack Afghanistan.
> He certainly would not have any need to revoke the old 'Saddam Has
> WMD's' argument which has worn so thin with so many people.
Yet it is still a valid argument, given what we know about Saddam's
character and intentions...
> Another question; when it is *known* that so many other countries
> knowingly host aQ operatives, including Saudi and Iran, why pick on
> the one country for which the 'proof' is so tenuous, that it has been
> virtually dismissed?
Not sure but I do offer the following observations:
(1) TWAT is not solely about aQ, but international terrorists and the
regimes that support them. It is clear Saddam has given conferences
for terrorist groups and has supported terrorists, even if it is less
clear that he has supported terrorists who directly attacked the US.
(2) Iraq is probably the politically easier option to go for at this
time, given the complete contempt for UN resolutions they've
displayed.
(3) The other countries will be sent the message they might be next
unless they desist from providing support to AQ and the other
terrorists.
(4) Iraq was unique in celebrating/praising 11/9 when it happened. You
might argue the others were simply lying in the service of
self-preservation, but then that highlights that Saddam expected to be
able to gloat about such things without consequence.
James
ma...@public-record.co.uk
wrote:
>> I will read what you posted, because I always do, though many of the
>> alleged links I have read about are extremely tenuous and speculative.
>> However, I still believe that if there was a single credible shred of
>> evidence to link Saddam Hussein with attacks on the US, I have no
>> doubt that Mr Bush would be shouting it from the rooftops (quite
>> rightly so).
>
>That depends on whether publicising the information would jeopardise
>US intelligence operations against the terrorists. But I'd imagine he
>would be trying to get some version of it out that doesn't if so. Mind
>you if he were shouting such evidence from the rooftops would you, and
>the other anti-war posters believe him?
Maybe, maybe not. But the total absence of evidence is interesting
cheers
matt