6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They Thought She Was A Jew - She Isn't
FransHals
the relgion of peace?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
By AFP
VERSAILLES, France - A young woman and her baby were attacked in a
suburban train near Paris on Saturday by unidentified men who drew
swastikas on her stomach with a pen in what police said was an
anti-Semitic assault.
The six attackers who were armed with knives clipped the 23-year-old
woman's hair, and cut her t-shirt and pants before drawing three
swastikas on her body.
The men of North African origin also overturned the pram with her baby
of 13 months.
In the attack they robbed her backpack which contained her identity
papers, a bank card and 200 euros ($250).
Police said the attackers erroneously assumed the woman was Jewish
because she was living in Paris' posh 16th district.
"Only Jews live in the 16th district," one of the men was quoted as
having said.
French President Jacques Chirac expressed his horror and condemned
what he called "a shameful attack."
The perpetrators must be found, held accountable and condemned with
the full severity of the law, a statement issued by his office said.
French Interior Minister Dominique de Villepin asked police to find
the attackers within the shortest possible time, his ministry said in
a statement.
The attack was "all the more serious because it was marked by racism
and anti-Semitism," he said.
Clough
wrote:
>Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
>the relgion of peace?
I thought this bit from the BBC report was a bit strange:
"Jean-Paul Huchon, president of the Ile-de-France region surrounding
Paris, despaired of the lack of reaction from fellow passengers."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3884983.stm
What does the idiot think, That somebody would intervene and perhaps
injure one of the attackers thus laying himself open to prosecution
and potential jail time for racially aggravated violence?
Clough
Aramis Gunton
<frans...@hotmail.com> writes
>Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>
>of 13 months.
These Frenchmen .... real cunts eh?
No wonder the Americans referred to them as "Cheese Eating Surrender
Monkeys"
The French - A shit stain on the gusset of Europe.
--
Aramis Gunton
MrMoor
__________6 Muslim Men___________
See the odd bit there, Muslims don't have men, they have males. A male
Fish isn't a man, a male ferret isn't a man it is a male same as a
Muslim except Muslims seem to have put themselves a few rungs down on
the evolutionary scale.
Certic
FransHals <frans...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
> the relgion of peace?
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>
> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>
> By AFP
Ha'aretz? So suddenly you Nazis have started actually believing the Jewish
media you've spent the last eighty years warning us against?
You couldn't make it up...
--
You are Not entering Chapeltown.
We walk on two legs, the one abstract
the other surreal.
All important political action should be
aimed at persuading people of the
necessity of further sacrifices.
- Ardian Vehbiu, "Handbook for
Aspiring Stalinists"
--
Certic
Magda <egla...@hanmail.com> wrote in message
news:8j73f0t97c24gavfj...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:25:52 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, Aramis Gunton
> <ara...@nink.demon.co.uk> arranged some electrons, so they looked like
this :
>
> ... In message <9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com>,
FransHals
> ... <frans...@hotmail.com> writes
> ... >Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
> ... >
> ... >The men of North African origin also overturned the pram with her
baby
> ... >of 13 months.
> ...
> ... These Frenchmen .... real cunts eh?
> ...
> ... No wonder the Americans referred to them as "Cheese Eating Surrender
> ... Monkeys"
> ...
> ... The French - A shit stain on the gusset of Europe.
>
> It's just your luck that you have a French first name... LOL
--------
Is it better or worse than a Hungarian first name?
bob estes
"Certic" <P...@winDEATHTOSPAMMERSwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ccs6pm$mln$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
Nicolas Benicoeur
We're happy to shit on you anyday.
geotek
geotek
"Nicolas Benicoeur" <dontspam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2le1toF...@uni-berlin.de...
FransHals
The story was also picked up by the left wing stalinist BBC and many
oher papers and news outlets.
FransHals
Could you iamgine if this happened on a UK train and some white
British chap stepped up to stop the vermin. How many crimes would he
be charged with?
1. Hate crime
2. Thought crime.
3. Race crime.
4. Violence crime.
He would be branded as a yob, racist, BNP voter and on and on. He
probably would get 50 years in Wormwood Scrubs plus he would be sued
in civil court for every shilling he has by these charming Muslim men
& their Nu Labour Party provided free legal team.
Jeremy Henderson
> On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:01:49 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, "Certic"
> <P...@winDEATHTOSPAMMERSwaed.demon.co.uk> arranged some electrons, so they looked like
> this:
>
> ...
> ... Magda <egla...@hanmail.com> wrote in message
> ... news:8j73f0t97c24gavfj...@4ax.com...
> ... > On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:25:52 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, Aramis Gunton
> ... > <ara...@nink.demon.co.uk> arranged some electrons, so they looked like
> ... this :
> ... >
> ... > ... In message <9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com>,
> ... FransHals
> ... > ... <frans...@hotmail.com> writes
> ... > ... >Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
> ... > ... >
> ... > ... >The men of North African origin also overturned the pram with her
> ... baby
> ... > ... >of 13 months.
> ... > ...
> ... > ... These Frenchmen .... real cunts eh?
> ... > ...
> ... > ... No wonder the Americans referred to them as "Cheese Eating Surrender
> ... > ... Monkeys"
> ... > ...
> ... > ... The French - A shit stain on the gusset of Europe.
> ... >
> ... > It's just your luck that you have a French first name... LOL
> ... --------
> ... Is it better or worse than a Hungarian first name?
>
> Why do you ask me ? Ask your parents !
He will as soon as he figures out who they are.
J;
--
Encrypted e-mail address. Click to mail me:
http://cerbermail.com/?nKYh3qN4YG
Colin McGarry
"FransHals" <frans...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> Clough <in...@canoemail.com> wrote in message
news:<f153f0dr0qe96dr36...@4ax.com>...
> > On 11 Jul 2004 10:36:05 -0700, frans...@hotmail.com (FransHals)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
> > >the relgion of peace?
I wonder what the purpose of the original posting is. The attack was
serious, but how many murders are commited in New York every day.
Should we splash that on news groups to say don't go to New York.
Aramis Gunton
<dontspam...@hotmail.com> writes
>> The French - A shit stain on the gusset of Europe.
>
>We're happy to shit on you anyday.
Ah! But who is "We" and who is "you"?
--
Aramis Gunton
MikeinCamden
stories have appeared before with the attackers said to be white rightists and
turning out to be fake.
Bill_The_Butcher
> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
> the relgion of peace?
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>
> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
I said it before and I'll say it again...
>
> By AFP
>
> VERSAILLES, France - A young woman and her baby were attacked in a
This is what writer's call "delicious irony". The Jew-hating, Jew-bating
French are sitting on a massive powder keg, and within twenty years or
so it will blow up and destroy their foul nation. Attacks like this one
are prime examples of the "chickens coming home to roost" in France (The
Future Islamic Republic of Francostan).
All the appeasement & groveling in the world will not save the
duplicitous & sniveling French from the savage wrath of their Mohammedan
minority when it becomes the majority in France within a few years. When
that inevitability comes to pass, expect to see barbarous attacks like
this to become hourly occurrences throughout the whole of France.
They have no one else to blame for this but themselves. They treat their
Muslim minority in France like shit, and yet they have the temerity to
lecture Israel on what they wrongfully perceive to be Israel's harsh
treatment of the "poor Palestinians" (homicide-bombers).
Fortunately, there's a delicious pot of kosher Bre at the end of this
rainbow. The same Islamofascist bastards who the French condemn Israel
for defending their citizens against will someday rule France. The Le
Louvre will be a medressa, Notre Dame will be a mosque, "Allahu Akbar"
will replace "Je Surrendre" as the national slogan of France, and the
effete culture that the French are so protective of will disappear into
the annals of history forever.
Sure, having the Mohammedans rule France (and its modest nuclear
arsenal) will not be a good thing, but considering how most French
loathe the Jews already, I doubt we'll notice the difference.
Bill_The_Butcher
news:1vg5f0do66hru1sm1...@4ax.com:
> Subject: Re: 6 Muslim Men Attack Mother & Baby On PARIS Train - They
> Thought She Was A Jew - She Isn't From: Malev <pen...@cqnet.com.cn>
> Newsgroups:
> rec.travel.europe,uk.politics.misc,alt.politics.bush,soc.culture.europ
e
> ,alt.politics.british Followup-To: alt.idiots
> Reply-To: ad...@previa-mktg.com
>
> On 12 Jul 2004 08:43:43 -0700, stand_up_f...@yahoo.com
> (Bill_The_Butcher) wrote:
>
>>This is what writer's call "delicious irony". The Jew-hating,
>>Jew-bating French are
>
> <snip - bigot's offensive garbage>
>
> You are uttlerly clueless.
> You haven't even read the article.
Quite the contrary, you churlish little maggot, I read it twice..which
is obviously two more times than you did. Since you're obviously
suffering from some emotional problem or other, I shall elucidate on
what I meant by "delicious irony".
The victims of this barbarous (though typically Islamic) attack were
thought to be Jewish by their pea-brained Mohammedan attackers. They
turned out not to be Jewish, but rather a Frenchwoman & her infant. This
heinous attack represents the future of France, and therein lays the
irony.
The French, who have made it their single vocation to appease
Islamoterrorists, and whose high-pitched lamentations can be heard as
far away as Greenland whenever Israel sends another Islamic thug to his
"72 virgins", are themselves the victims in ever-increasing numbers of
Islamo-hatred inside their own borders. This violence will increase
exponentially as Muslims become a greater percentage, and someday
majority, of France's population.
You can indulge the fantasy that this will never happen in France all
you want, but the simple fact of the matter is that there is no Islamic
country today that tolerates non-Muslims. When France becomes
"Francostan" (i.e. majority Muslim), this will not change, and the few
remaining French Christians in France will be given the "Nick Berg"
treatment in their own land until there are none left.
So shall it be written, so shall it be done!
--
"The Arabs cannot accept the existence of Israel. Those who accept it
are not normal. The best solution for the [Palestinian] Arabs in Israel
is to go and live in the Arab states." - David Ben-Gurion
Certic
FransHals <frans...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> "Certic" <P...@winDEATHTOSPAMMERSwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<ccs6pm$mln$1$830f...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> > FransHals <frans...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> > > Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
> > > the relgion of peace?
> > >
> > > http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
> > >
> > > Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
> > >
> > > By AFP
> > ----------
> > Ha'aretz? So suddenly you Nazis have started actually believing the
Jewish
> > media you've spent the last eighty years warning us against?
> > You couldn't make it up...
>
> oher papers and news outlets.
So, Marxist and Jews both agree? And that makes it more believable for you?
Wow.
Certic
Bill_The_Butcher <stand_up_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6d0d6ff7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> Fortunately, there's a delicious pot of kosher Bre at the end of this
> rainbow. The same Islamofascist bastards who the French condemn Israel
> for defending their citizens against will someday rule France. The Le
> Louvre will be a medressa, Notre Dame will be a mosque, "Allahu Akbar"
> will replace "Je Surrendre" as the national slogan of France, and the
> effete culture that the French are so protective of will disappear into
> the annals of history forever.
-------
I know it's wasted on you as an ignorant Yank who probably thinks
Switzerland is a theme park, but the French for "I surrender" is *not*
anything like "Je Surrendre"...
Certic
Jeremy Henderson <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.07.12...@privacy.net...
Ah, one of yours, is she? I wondered if "Magda" was yet another Nazi sock
puppet and now it's been confirmed.
Bill_The_Butcher
$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk:
>
> Bill_The_Butcher <stand_up_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:6d0d6ff7.04071...@posting.google.com...
>
> -------
> I know it's wasted on you as an ignorant Yank who probably thinks
> Switzerland is a theme park, but the French for "I surrender" is *not*
> anything like "Je Surrendre"...
>
> --
LOL! I've been to the UK enough to know that the average Brit is in no
position to call anyone else "ignorant". Ask the average school child in
the UK to define the term "Yellow Menace", and he's likely to point at his
"Mum's" snaggletoothed smile.
Besides, my lager-lout friend, the words "Je me rends" will sound much
nicer in a thick cockney accent when your Muslim population becomes the
majority in the UK. Your right on the heels of France. Too bad your beloved
"beeb" won't have live coverage.
Jeremy Henderson
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:36:00 +0100, in rec.travel.europe, "Certic"
> <P...@winDEATHTOSPAMMERSwaed.demon.co.uk> arranged some electrons, so they looked like
> this:
>
> ... Ah, one of yours, is she? I wondered if "Magda" was yet another Nazi sock
> ... puppet and now it's been confirmed.
>
> No need to put my name between inverted commas; it's my real name.
> Can't say the same about "yours". LOL
It's what he read on his medical chart - but he can't spell "certified"
geotek
are happy to shit on us any time. I said "we notice." What point, if any,
are YOU making?
If you are implying that the french shitting on 'us' is here in this
newsgroup, you're wrong. The french will shit on anyone or anything, even
in their own pants, like the 20-odd bystanders were, no doubt, doing. What
a proud day for france!
geotek
"Magda" <egla...@hanmail.com> wrote in message
news:9bo4f0hb9hbnt07bq...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 02:45:17 GMT, in rec.travel.europe, "geotek" <y...@y.com>
arranged some
> electrons, so they looked like this :
>
> ... It doesn't go unnoticed.
> ... geotek
>
> If you don't like it, stop coming back for more.
>
>
> ... "Nicolas Benicoeur" <dontspam...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> ... news:2le1toF...@uni-berlin.de...
> ... > > The French - A shit stain on the gusset of Europe.
> ... >
> ... > We're happy to shit on you anyday.
> ... >
> ... >
> ...
>
geotek
"Bill_The_Butcher" <stand_up_f...@jdlxxxx.org> wrote in message
news:Xns95248DD18E9...@130.81.64.196...
No, they are cracking down. They won't let the girls wear headscarves to
school. I think it's just a 'fashion' thing, though.
geotek
Jeremy
"geotek" <y...@y.com> wrote:
Your knees must be quite sore from jerking up and that like that. Now show
us the proof that the perpetrators were in fact Muslims. You might like to
refer to the victim's testimony to help you out with your answer. Or not.
In the meantime, as a little mental exercise, calculate the ratio of victims
of Muslim violence in the US and in France in the last few years.
J;
PTRAVEL
"Jeremy" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:BD18BE40.21D43%m...@privacy.net...
Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently reside
in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
>
> J;
>
Jeremy
<ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hahahahahahaa!!!! How many North Africans attacked the woman?
J;
PTRAVEL
According to the article, six. What's your point?
>
> J;
>
Jeremy
<ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
Point 2: http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3122982,00.html
J;
PTRAVEL
My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>
> Point 2: http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3122982,00.html
This article reports contradictions in the woman's story. It doesn't report
the nationality or ethnicity of the attackers.
So what?
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>
> J;
>
PTRAVEL
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L1219180.htm
Go Fig
wrote:
In the AP report, it stated that attacks on Jews in France in the first
half of 2004 has already reached the total for 2003.
jay
Mon Jul 12, 2004
mailto:go...@mac.com
>
> J;
>
Tim Kroesen
for another nationality I mean...
Tim K
"Magda" <egla...@hanmail.com> wrote in message
news:8j46f0poabo58qn70...@4ax.com...
>
> Are you not a mercan ?
>
FransHals
> "Certic" <P...@winDEATHTOSPAMMERSwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in news:ccujus$fmc
> $1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk:
>
> >
> > Bill_The_Butcher <stand_up_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:6d0d6ff7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> >
>
> > -------
> > I know it's wasted on you as an ignorant Yank who probably thinks
> > Switzerland is a theme park, but the French for "I surrender" is *not*
> > anything like "Je Surrendre"...
> >
> > --
>
> LOL! I've been to the UK enough to know that the average Brit is in no
> position to call anyone else "ignorant". Ask the average school child in
> the UK to define the term "Yellow Menace", and he's likely to point at his
> "Mum's" snaggletoothed smile.
>
> Besides, my lager-lout friend, the words "Je me rends" will sound much
> nicer in a thick cockney accent when your Muslim population becomes the
> majority in the UK. Your right on the heels of France. Too bad your beloved
> "beeb" won't have live coverage.
Muslims just got special rights in the UK. I remember Orwell talking
about some people being more equal than others.
Blunkett's ban will fan the flames
By Mark Steyn
(Filed: 13/07/2004)
A couple of years back, I mentioned the fatwa against Salman Rushdie
and received a flurry of lively e-mails. It was Valentine's Day 1989,
you'll recall, when the Ayatollah Khomeini issued his extraterritorial
summary judgment on a British subject, and shortly thereafter large
numbers of British Muslims were marching through English cities openly
calling for Rushdie to be killed.
A reader in Bradford recalled asking a West Yorkshire officer on the
street that day why the various "Muslim community leaders" weren't
being arrested for incitement to murder. The officer said they'd been
told to "play it cool". The calls for blood got more raucous. My
correspondent asked his question again. The policeman told him to
"F--- off, or I'll arrest you."
Isn't that pretty much how it's likely to go once David Blunkett's new
protection for Islam is in place? If you're the "moderate" Imam Yusuf
al-Qaradawi, you'll be invited to speak at the "Our Children Our
Future" conference sponsored and funded by the Metropolitan Police and
the Department for Work and Pensions. But, if you express concern
about ol' Mullah Moderate, an Islamic lobby group will file an
official complaint about you.
Indeed, after Sir John Stevens, Met commissioner and event co-sponsor,
said he didn't want his officers on the same stage as the imam, the
Muslim Association of Britain filed an official complaint about his
comments. By the time you read this, Sir John might have already
called for himself to be investigated by a Royal Commission and found
guilty of systemic Islamophobia.
As for "Our Children Our Future", when it comes to children, the imam
certainly has the future all mapped out: as he has said, "Israelis
might have nuclear bombs but we have the children bomb and these human
bombs must continue until liberation." Thank heaven for little girls,
they blow up in the most delightful way.
If an Anglican Bishop were to commend a career as a suicide bomber to
his Sunday school charges, you'd certainly hope to be free to question
his judgment on the matter. Not that Anglican bishops ever say such
things, of course. They're lost in anguished debate on whether they
should just have celibate gay deans in long-term relationships or go
for full-blown robustly active gay bishops, and all the thanks they
get for their painful efforts to keep up with the times is wholesale
public mockery of Christianity up and down the land - i.e. my old
friend Alistair Beaton's satirical Iraq-war song, We're Sending You a
Cluster Bomb From Jesus.
Meanwhile, Islam is the fastest-growing religion in the Western world,
but Blunkett wants us to pretend that it's a wee delicate bloom which
has to be sheltered from anything unpleasant. The other week, the
governor of one of those Nigerian states that now lives under sharia
called for the burning of all Christian churches within his
jurisdiction. Every Friday, on state TV and radio throughout the Arab
world and in mosques somewhat closer to home, the A-list imams call
for the killing of Jews and infidels. Well, good luck to them. But, if
they can dish it out so enthusiastically, couldn't they learn to take
it just an eensy-teensy-weensy bit?
One of the reasons Arab nations are in the state they're in is because
of the inability to discuss Islam honestly. I was in Amman for the
Jordanian election last year and one of the things you notice is that,
although the city does a reasonable impression of a modern dynamic
capital and its press is, by the standards of the region, free-ish,
its stunted political culture is subordinate to its religious culture.
That's why, for example, Article 340 of the Jordanian Penal Code -
which effectively licenses "honour killings" - always gets renewed
when it comes up in parliament.
That's another reason the British Government should not be in the
business of helping coercive lobby groups further stifle debate. Islam
raises political questions that Judaism or Buddhism don't - the
suggestion, for example, that Muslim women should be exempt from the
requirement to be photographed on national identity cards. Without
Blunkett's law, there'll be the odd crusty type from the shires
huffing on BBC phone-ins that if Muslim women think it's insulting to
be made to remove their hejab for ID cards, they should bloody well
have thought about that before moving to Britain.
With Blunkett's law, we'll discuss such questions, if at all, between
tightly imposed government constraints explicitly favouring one party
to the dispute. I know which one of those options any self-respecting
liberal democracy ought to prefer.
In The River War (1899), Winston Churchill's account of the Sudanese
campaign, there's a memorable passage which I reproduce here while I'm
still able to:
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries!
Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as
hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods
of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers
of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life
of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The
fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his
absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must
delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has
ceased to be a great power among men.
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the
brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the
influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those
who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far
from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising
faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising
fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is
sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it
had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall,
as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."
Is that grossly offensive to Muslims? Almost certainly. Is it also a
rather shrewd and pertinent analysis by one of Britain's most eminent
leaders? I think so. If Blunkett bans the sentiments in that first
sentence, the sentiments of the last will prove even more pertinent.
FransHals
> $1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk:
>
> >
> > Bill_The_Butcher <stand_up_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:6d0d6ff7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> >
>
> > -------
> > I know it's wasted on you as an ignorant Yank who probably thinks
> > Switzerland is a theme park, but the French for "I surrender" is *not*
> > anything like "Je Surrendre"...
> >
> > --
>
> LOL! I've been to the UK enough to know that the average Brit is in no
> position to call anyone else "ignorant". Ask the average school child in
> the UK to define the term "Yellow Menace", and he's likely to point at his
> "Mum's" snaggletoothed smile.
>
> Besides, my lager-lout friend, the words "Je me rends" will sound much
> nicer in a thick cockney accent when your Muslim population becomes the
> majority in the UK. Your right on the heels of France. Too bad your beloved
> "beeb" won't have live coverage.
Bill - not all Brits are pro-IslamoFascists like our own Michael
Moore, the Clintons and Democratic Party.
The current Lib/Lab/Con single party rule in England/Britain is if
anything more accomodating to Islam than France. I am making no
exuses for France but the French are much closer to North Africa than
the UK. The criminal political class in the UK went out of their way
to import 2 million IslamoFascists. The good Brits have been totally
railroaded because they have no opposition press or media.
abelard
typed:
>
>"Jeremy" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>news:BD18C9CD.21D66%m...@privacy.net...
>> On 12/7/04 23:01, in article 2lgch2F...@uni-berlin.de, "PTRAVEL"
>> <ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Jeremy" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> > news:BD18C753.21D61%m...@privacy.net...
>> >> On 12/7/04 22:48, in article 2lgbosF...@uni-berlin.de, "PTRAVEL"
>> >> <ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >>
>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently
>> > reside
>> >>> in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
>> >>
>> >> Hahahahahahaa!!!! How many North Africans attacked the woman?
>> >
>> > According to the article, six. What's your point?
>>
>> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
>
>My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
>a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
>event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
from algeria tunisia or morocco
>a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>
>>
>> Point 2: http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3122982,00.html
>
>This article reports contradictions in the woman's story. It doesn't report
>the nationality or ethnicity of the attackers.
>
>So what?
>
>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>
>
>>
>> J;
>>
>
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
energy, education, politics, etc >800,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PTRAVEL
"abelard" <abel...@abelard.org> wrote in message
news:n6j6f05432h8u5l6j...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 14:34:42 -0700, "PTRAVEL" <ptravel8...@yahoo.com>
<snip>
> >My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted
to
> >a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> >event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
"maghrebins,"
>
> from algeria tunisia or morocco
Ah, thank you.
abelard
typed:
here's another definition...
but when the french use it, it tends to mean the ex french colonies
as above...
enc brit...
Maghreb,
also spelled MAGHRIB (Arabic: "West"), region of North Africa
bordering the Mediterranean Sea. The Africa Minor of the ancients, it at
one time included Moorish Spain and now comprises essentially the Atlas
Massif and coastal plain of Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, and Libya. The
weather of the Maghreb is characterized by prevailing westerly winds,
which drop most of their moisture on the northern slopes and coastal
plain, leaving little for the southern slopes, which maintain desert scrub
fading into true desert in the Sahara to the south.
From the vastness of their mountain ranges, the native peoples of the
Maghreb have resisted successive Punic, Roman, and Christian invasions.
Not until the 7th and 8th centuries was the Maghreb conquered; the Arabs,
who imposed on the native peoples the religion of Islam and Arabic, the
language of the Qu`ran, thus absorbed the Maghreb into the Muslim
civilization. Despite this absorption, most of the North African societies
have preserved their cultural identity throughout the centuries.
The people of the Maghreb are ethnically Berbers and Arabs. Denizens of
the Maghreb since ancient times, the Berbers probably originated in a
mingling of races during the Paleolithic and Neolithic periods. The Berber
stock displays a wide variety of physical characteristics, and their
social and cultural characteristics are also quite diverse. Underlying all
these differences, however, is a common ethnic substratum. The long
succession of invaders, ranging from the Phoenicians to the Arabs and
finally to the French, did not lead to much interbreeding. About one-sixth
of the population of the Maghreb (most of whom live in Algeria and
Morocco) still speak one of the Berber languages, but most speak some form
of Arabic.
regards....
Jeremy Henderson
>
> "Jeremy" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
>
> My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
> a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
> a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
>> Point 2: http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3122982,00.html
>
> This article reports contradictions in the woman's story. It doesn't report
> the nationality or ethnicity of the attackers.
No - it suggests that they didn't exist.
> So what?
So all the trumpeting about "The BBC changing the facts to suit its
agenda", the "six Muslim attackers", the "antisemitic violence" and the
"cowardly French" looks a bit empty, n'est-ce pas?
Quite instructive, really.
Miguel Cruz
> My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
> a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
> a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
"Maghreb" is the Arabic word for Morocco. Comes from the root for "west",
which is amusingly also the word for "strange".
miguel
--
Hit The Road! Photos and tales from around the world: http://travel.u.nu
Earl Evleth
<ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently reside
> in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
It should not be forgotten that a large number of French (Pieds Noirs) were
also "North Africans" and Christian. Indeed, several papers were presented
at a conference in Paris several weeks ago which dealt with the
development of anti-Semitism in French Algeria by the French community there
and how it, in turn, influenced the "Arab" community (Berbers are not Arab
but that is another issue). The population mix that exited North Africa
at the end of the Algerian war is complex, includes Jews (Sephardics),
the Pieds Noirs and the Muslim supporters of the France. Later immigration
was for economic reasons and these are Muslims.
We are prison visitors in France and get an view of some of the problems
presented by incarcerated. The current rash of Arab anti-Semitism is due
to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the American intervention in Iraq
and its own
Arabophobia. The only target available to the Arab underclass
in France are the Jews. This population may well be more anti-American than
anti-Semitic by now and the Bush administration policies have shoved things
in that direction.
One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
"I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors which
escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well known
to the French.
Earl
Earl Evleth
"Jeremy Henderson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> No - it suggests that they didn't exist.
>
>> So what?
>
> So all the trumpeting about "The BBC changing the facts to suit its
> agenda", the "six Muslim attackers", the "antisemitic violence" and the
> "cowardly French" looks a bit empty, n'est-ce pas?
>
> Quite instructive, really.
The "instruction" so far is that a lot of people grabbed and ran with this
story before the facts were even partially developed.
Below is this morning`s Le Parisian article. Liberation and Figaro are
covering the same story from the same angle.
The victim has not yet been accused of fabricating this story but the arrows
are now pointing in that direction. As I posted last night there have been
previous hoaxes in which an anti-Semitic element has proven false. That
does not discount those that actually occur.
The scenario of a lone woman being attacked on the RER or train lines
into Paris is part of several French TV movies, and of course the
Depardieu film "Les Valseuse" recently reshown on French TV.
The current incident takes on some of the characteristics of
the Tawana Brawley hoax in the US where Al Sharpton and other
black leaders were caught up in. It is too early to class
the current incident as a hoax, however. But we do live in
an hysterical era.
Earl
CCN covers this in English
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/07/12/france.attack.ap/
but the English language items I saw are least complete than
that below.
*****
RER D : questions autour d'une agression
Les enquêteurs ne parviennent pas à vérifier les déclarations de Marie, 23
ans, sur l'agression dont elle dit avoir été victime dans le RER avec son
bébé. Les témoins, comme les agresseurs qui n'apparaissent pas sur les
vidéos, sont introuvables.
LOUVRES (VAL-D'OISE), HIER. Le RER D fait désormais l'objet d'une
surveillance policière renforcée. (LP/PHILIPPE DE POULPIQUET.)
L'ENQUETE POSE plus de questions qu'elle n'apporte pour l'instant de
réponses. Quatre jours après l'agression cauchemardesque dont Marie L.
déclare avoir été victime dans le RER D, les policiers de la PJ de
Versailles n'ont pour l'instant pas recueilli d'éléments susceptibles
d'étayer les dépositions de cette jeune femme de 23 ans.
Vendredi dernier, après être montée dans un wagon à deux étages en gare de
Louvres (Val-d'Oise) avec sa petite fille de 13 mois dans une poussette,
Marie s'est installée au niveau de la plate-forme située devant les portes.
C'est là, selon ses déclarations, qu'elles auraient été agressées par un
groupe de six jeunes, quatre d'origine maghrébine et deux Noirs africains.
Après avoir découvert dans son portefeuille qu'elle avait été domiciliée
dans le XVI e arrondissement de Paris, l'un des assaillants aurait lancé :
« Dans le XVI e , y a que des juifs ! » Le calvaire de la jeune femme aurait
alors débuté. Durant près d'un quart d'heure, alors qu'une vingtaine
d'usagers se trouvaient dans le wagon, la passagère explique que ses
agresseurs lui ont tailladé ses vêtements, coupé des mèches de cheveux et
dessiné des croix gammées sur le ventre à l'aide d'un feutre. Les six
individus auraient abandonné leur victime en gare de Garges-Sarcelles, où
ils seraient sortis en emportant son sac à dos et en faisant tomber la
poussette sur le quai. « Aucun témoin direct qui puisse nous apporter des
éléments ne s'est signalé pour l'instant et nous n'avons pas non plus
retrouvé de trace d'appel aux services d'urgence au moment de l'agression,
déplorait hier Xavier Salvat, le procureur de Pontoise. Si des personnes
susceptibles de témoigner ont peur, elles doivent savoir qu'elles peuvent le
faire en conservant l'anonymat. » La jeune femme, qui aurait finalement reçu
l'assistance d'un couple sur le quai, affirme avoir alerté un guichetier de
la gare. Là encore, les enquêteurs n'ont pas retrouvé la trace de ces
témoins potentiels. Les cinq agents SNCF présents ce jour-là sont formels :
aucun incident de ce type ne leur a été signalé.
Vue en gare de Louvres le pantalon déjà déchiré Les policiers espéraient
également découvrir de précieux indices sur la bande de vidéosurveillance de
la gare. Les premiers visionnages effectués hier n'ont rien donné. « Pour
l'instant, il n'apparaît pas de groupe ressemblant de près ou de loin aux
six jeunes décrits », confie un policier. Un de ses collègues souligne par
ailleurs que les croix gammées dessinées sur le ventre de Marie L. sont «
inversées ». Et un témoin a affirmé aux enquêteurs avoir vu la jeune femme
en gare de Louvres, le pantalon déjà déchiré. Enfin, les policiers, après
vérifications, émettent des doutes sur la réalité du trajet que la victime a
indiqué avoir emprunté ce matin-là. « La gravité des déclarations de la
victime est telle que tout est vérifié et en l'absence de témoins directs,
c'est un travail complexe , insiste Franck Carabin, du syndicat d'officiers
Synergie. Des contradictions sont apparues. » La personnalité de la victime
est également à l'étude. Certains de ses proches ont été entendus hier. La
police judiciaire a relevé que, durant les cinq dernières années, Marie
avait déposé plainte à au moins cinq reprises pour des affaires de vols, de
violences et plus récemment pour une agression sexuelle pour laquelle elle
s'était rendue en novembre au commissariat de Villeneuve-Saint-Georges
(Val-de-Marne). Le dossier a été classé sans suite. « Tout cela ne fait pas
d'elle une affabulatrice, souligne un policier. Les recherches se
poursuivent pour retrouver les agresseurs auxquels elle dit avoir été
confrontée. » Hier, dans l'attente de l'issue de l'enquête, le Premier
ministre, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, a appelé les Français au « courage citoyen
». Dénonçant l'antisémitisme comme une honte, le chef du gouvernement a
ajouté : « Il y a aussi un mal dans notre société, c'est l'indifférence face
à la violence », évoquant le fait qu'aucun passager du train ne soit
intervenu.
Colin McGarry
"FransHals" <frans...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com...
> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
> the relgion of peace?
>
> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>
> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>
It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
of non existant atacks several times before.
Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
cpmac
Colin McGarry
of non existant atacks several times before.
Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
"Miguel Cruz" <sp...@un.u.nu> a écrit dans le message de news:
yJKIc.236$nO....@news.itd.umich.edu...
Go Fig
<evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> On 13/07/04 7:24, in article pan.2004.07.13....@privacy.net,
> "Jeremy Henderson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> > No - it suggests that they didn't exist.
> >
> >> So what?
> >
> > So all the trumpeting about "The BBC changing the facts to suit its
> > agenda", the "six Muslim attackers", the "antisemitic violence" and the
> > "cowardly French" looks a bit empty, n'est-ce pas?
> >
> > Quite instructive, really.
>
>
> The "instruction" so far is that a lot of people grabbed and ran with this
> story before the facts were even partially developed.
Like the French President and his Interior Minister?
jay
Tue Jul 13, 2004
mailto:go...@mac.com
Earl Evleth
<go...@mac.com> wrote:
>> The "instruction" so far is that a lot of people grabbed and ran with this
>> story before the facts were even partially developed.
>
>
> Like the French President and his Interior Minister?
Right. They did a Bush. The French political system is so sensitized right
now it knee jerks immediately in order to avoid
personal accusations of being soft on anti-Semitism.
The same thing happened in the US with respect to nearly
all political personalities and the "war on terrorism".
The Iraq war was entered into with surprisingly little
political resistance. Kerry voted for it. Show me one
American politician who stood tall and said "no".
The nation was not well protected from hysterical reactions.
In fact Elaine Showalter showed us in her book "Hystories: Hysterical
Epidemics and Modern Media" (published prior to 9/11) that
some have an apparent NEED to be hysterical now and then.
You should recognize this in yourself, you are an hysteric. You
don't use your real name for paranoid reasons. You are
a grab and runner!
Earl
Go Fig
<evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> On 13/07/04 10:15, in article 130720040115025141%go...@mac.com, "Go Fig"
> <go...@mac.com> wrote:
>
> >> The "instruction" so far is that a lot of people grabbed and ran with this
> >> story before the facts were even partially developed.
> >
> >
> > Like the French President and his Interior Minister?
>
>
> Right. They did a Bush. The French political system is so sensitized right
> now it knee jerks immediately in order to avoid
> personal accusations of being soft on anti-Semitism.
When you have a historical legacy of hatred and discrimination of Jews,
that should come with the territory. But for the French it appears to
be nothing more than window dressing....
Attacks on Jews in France in the first 6 months of 2004 have surpassed
the total number in 2003-
>
> France has recorded 135 physical acts of violence against Jews --
> including assaults and desecration of graves in Jewish cemeteries -- in
> the first six months of this year, compared to 127 for the whole of
> 2003.
>
jay
Tue Jul 13, 2004
mailto:go...@mac.com
>
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <2lgefkF...@uni-berlin.de>, "PTRAVEL"
<ptravel8...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
>
> My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears devoted to
> a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3 "maghrebins,"
> a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
"Maghrebin" comes from "Maghreb", which Webster's Dictionary defines as: "NW
Africa, chiefly Morocco, Algeria and Tunisia: the Arabic name."
Donna Evleth
Divin Marquis
> Quite the contrary, you churlish little maggot, I read it twice..which is
> obviously two more times than you did. Since you're obviously suffering
> from some emotional problem or other, I shall elucidate on what I meant by
> "delicious irony".
Apparently, according to the latest news: nobody saw the event occuring,
closed circuits cams (which are about everywhere in the metro)recorded
nothing, and witnesses saw the alleged victim enter the train with her
clothes already torn.
And to top it off: she's already filed bogus complaints in the past.
There you go. That's how real "antisemitism" is for you.
Bill_The_Butcher
news:9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com:
> "Bill_The_Butcher" <stand_up_f...@jdlxxxx.org> wrote in
> message news:<Xns95249444C81...@130.81.64.196>...
>> "Certic" <P...@winDEATHTOSPAMMERSwaed.demon.co.uk> wrote in
>> news:ccujus$fmc $1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk:
>>
>> >
>> > Bill_The_Butcher <stand_up_f...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> > news:6d0d6ff7.04071...@posting.google.com...
>> >
>>
>> > -------
>> > I know it's wasted on you as an ignorant Yank who probably thinks
>> > Switzerland is a theme park, but the French for "I surrender" is
>> > *not* anything like "Je Surrendre"...
>> >
>> > --
>>
>> LOL! I've been to the UK enough to know that the average Brit is in
>> no position to call anyone else "ignorant". Ask the average school
>> child in the UK to define the term "Yellow Menace", and he's likely
>> to point at his "Mum's" snaggletoothed smile.
>>
>> Besides, my lager-lout friend, the words "Je me rends" will sound
>> much nicer in a thick cockney accent when your Muslim population
>> becomes the majority in the UK. Your right on the heels of France.
>> Too bad your beloved "beeb" won't have live coverage.
>
>
> Bill - not all Brits are pro-IslamoFascists like our own Michael
> Moore, the Clintons and Democratic Party.
Franz, I know that. I've perused many of the posts in the British NG's
and was delighted to see that many Brits (unlike their duplicitous
neighbors across the channel) are actual cognizant of the threat that's
being posed to their great nation at the hands of these Mohammedan
luddites/invaders.
As far as that bloated bucket of swill is concerned, Michael Moore, each
time he ventures to Europe to denigrate America & give comfort to our
enemies I keep hoping that he doesn't return...but he still does. Isn't
there anyone left in Europe with a sniper rifle & strong dislike for the
"American consumer"? Moore consumes enough food in one week to feed 70
starving African villages for a year. Knock off Moore and we Yanks will
pass the surplus chow along to the Third World...promise!
>
> The current Lib/Lab/Con single party rule in England/Britain is if
> anything more accomodating to Islam than France. I am making no
> exuses for France but the French are much closer to North Africa than
> the UK. The criminal political class in the UK went out of their way
> to import 2 million IslamoFascists. The good Brits have been totally
> railroaded because they have no opposition press or media.
>
As much as I admire Blair for the stand he took on Iraq, and for the
undying friendship he has displayed towards America since 9/11, if he
and his party are doing that kind of harm to the UK by endorsing an
obviously insane policy of self-inflicted cultural genocide, then
perhaps it's time you guys show him & his party the door. It would be
the mother of all pities if the great British nation, a nation that has
contributed so much to the progress of human civilization, were to come
under the thumb of a horde of savagely backward, grotesquely intolerant
"Koranimals".
The British people are better than that, and unlike their pusillanimous,
effeminate neighbors to the south, they deserve better than that.
Hank Mishkoff
>puppet and now it's been confirmed.
I haven't been following this thread very closely, and I'm
much to lazy to read all the preceding notes, so I don't
know the context of your comment, but...
As it happens, I was fortunate enough to have lunch with
Magda last time I was in Paris -- and I have to tell you, if
she's a sock puppet, she's a most *charming* sock puppet...
Hank Mishkoff
>political resistance. Kerry voted for it. Show me one
>American politician who stood tall and said "no".
The vote in the House of Representatives was 296-133, the
Senate vote was 77-23, so I could show you a total of 156
American politicians who said "no" just from Congress alone.
PTRAVEL
"Jeremy Henderson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.07.13....@privacy.net...
> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>
> >
> > "Jeremy" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>
> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
> >
> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
devoted to
> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
"maghrebins,"
> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>
> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
_Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism who
are not Muslim?
>
> >> Point 2: http://news.tf1.fr/news/france/0,,3122982,00.html
> >
> > This article reports contradictions in the woman's story. It doesn't
report
> > the nationality or ethnicity of the attackers.
>
> No - it suggests that they didn't exist.
It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. It reports questions. Period.
>
> > So what?
>
> So all the trumpeting about "The BBC changing the facts to suit its
> agenda", the "six Muslim attackers", the "antisemitic violence" and the
> "cowardly French" looks a bit empty, n'est-ce pas?
I haven't said anything about the "cowardly French," nor do I believe that
they are. However, if you deny that there has been a huge increase in
antisemitic violence in France that has paralled the increase in immigration
of Muslims from North Africa and, particularly, former French colonies, then
you have your head in the sand.
>
> Quite instructive, really.
Yes, quite, but not for the reason you think. People like validate the
necessity of Israel.
Earl Evleth
"Hank Mishkoff" <Ha...@WebFeats.com> wrote:
> The vote in the House of Representatives was 296-133, the
> Senate vote was 77-23, so I could show you a total of 156
> American politicians who said "no" just from Congress alone.
The votes reminds me of the one the French Nationality voted on
June 18th of 1940, "full powers" to Petain. The body then retired
for the rest of the occupation.
The House and Senate votes were 2/3rd, enough to impeach if that
were the decision.
Earl
Hank Mishkoff
>were the decision.
I wasn't trying to imply that the Congressional vote was a
stellar example of courage in the face of political
pressure, just trying to counter your point that *no*
American politicians were brave enough to vote against the
war (or something like that, I don't remember your exact
words), when the fact is that nearly 1/3 of Congress was
brave enough to do just that. It's not a source of pride
that the number was so low, but it's a fact just the same.
PTRAVEL
"Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:BD1955CA.3F3F7%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
> On 12/07/04 22:48, in article 2lgbosF...@uni-berlin.de, "PTRAVEL"
> <ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Out of curiosity, how many antisemtic Northern Africans who currently
reside
> > in France are you aware of who are not Muslim?
>
>
> It should not be forgotten that a large number of French (Pieds Noirs)
were
> also "North Africans" and Christian. Indeed, several papers were
presented
> at a conference in Paris several weeks ago which dealt with the
> development of anti-Semitism in French Algeria by the French community
there
> and how it, in turn, influenced the "Arab" community (Berbers are not Arab
> but that is another issue). The population mix that exited North Africa
> at the end of the Algerian war is complex, includes Jews (Sephardics),
> the Pieds Noirs and the Muslim supporters of the France. Later
immigration
> was for economic reasons and these are Muslims.
This is interesting. I didn't know this, thank you.
>
> We are prison visitors in France and get an view of some of the problems
> presented by incarcerated. The current rash of Arab anti-Semitism is due
> to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the American intervention in Iraq
> and its own
> Arabophobia.
So it is correct, then, to say that French Arabs cannot distinguish between
Jews and Israel. I also do not understand the connection between the
American invasion of Iraq and antisemitism. Do French Arabs believe that
George Bush, Dick Cheney et al. are Jewish?
> The only target available to the Arab underclass
> in France are the Jews.
How so? I think you mean to say, the only available target that the Arab
underclass elects are the Jews.
> This population may well be more anti-American than
> anti-Semitic by now and the Bush administration policies have shoved
things
> in that direction.
That is, at least, not what is reported by the American news services, i.e.
the French immigrant Arabs are highly antisemitic (and, almost certainly,
anti-American as well). The latter is understandable -- Bush and co. have
certainly not gone out of their way to win friends, either at home or
abroad. The former, however, is simply endemic in Arab culture, which has a
long and rich tradition of anti-semitism.
>
> One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
> Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
> by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
> "I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
> Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
> the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
> Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
> Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
The Sephardics aren't as small a community in the US as you might think.
Most of the conservative Jews that I know in Los Angeles are Sephardim. In
New York, on the other hand, Ashkenazis are the dominant group.
>
> So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors which
> escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well known
> to the French.
I don't disagree. However, I do believe that a fundamental problem, with
which France will need to deal one way or another, is that antisemitism is
an intrinsic part of Arabic culture in most places.
>
> Earl
>
PTRAVEL
"Colin McGarry" <WEBMAS...@cpmac.com> wrote in message
news:40f39973$0$314$7a62...@news.club-internet.fr...
> It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator.
Do you have a cite for this? Everything that I've read today, both in
French and English, indicate that serious questions have been raised, but
none of reported, as a fact, that the woman lied.
> She has complained
> of non existant atacks several times before.
> Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
> her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
> saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
>
> So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
Do you deny that there have been numerous, verified attacks against Jews in
France by Arab immigrants?
Jeremy Henderson
>
> "Jeremy Henderson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.07.13....@privacy.net...
>> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > "Jeremy" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>
>> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
>> >
>> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
> devoted to
>> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to the
>> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
> "maghrebins,"
>> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
>>
>> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
>
> Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
> _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism who
> are not Muslim?
Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
any bells?
PTRAVEL
"Jeremy Henderson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.07.13....@privacy.net...
> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 15:34:42 +0000, PTRAVEL wrote:
>
> >
> > "Jeremy Henderson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2004.07.13....@privacy.net...
> >> On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:34:42 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Jeremy" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> >>
> >> >> Point 1: http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=223161
> >> >
> >> > My French is far from fluent, but the bulk of the article appears
> > devoted to
> >> > a description of the efforts made by the police to find witnesses to
the
> >> > event. It does describe the perpetrators as 3 Africans and 3
> > "maghrebins,"
> >> > a word with which I'm unfamiliar.
> >>
> >> i.e. NOT six "North Africans"
> >
> > Good grief. You think that is signficant? Okay, do you know of any
> > _Africans_ who are immigrants to France and harbor intense antisemitism
who
> > are not Muslim?
>
> Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours antisemitism,
> but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest you
> cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache. Ring
> any bells?
Well, given the conditions in contemporary France, I think it is far more
likely that North Africans (which is what most of the media reported) and/or
Moroccans, Tunisans and Algerians who _are_ antisemitic are more likely to
be Arab than Adolph Hitler.
Jeremy Henderson
> In article <BD18BE40.21D43%m...@privacy.net>, Jeremy <m...@privacy.net>
> wrote:
>> In the meantime, as a little mental exercise, calculate the ratio of victims
>> of Muslim violence in the US and in France in the last few years.
>
> In the AP report, it stated that attacks on Jews in France in the first
> half of 2004 has already reached the total for 2003.
Forgotten about 9/11 already? Shame on you.
Jeremy Henderson
Yes, it's unlikely that a North African would be Adolph Hitler.
However, it seems that we are discussing a hypothetical situation, since
the attackers apparently did not exist: Maghrebian, black, or whatever.
PTRAVEL
That's the conclusion which, so far, only you have reached. You may be
right, but it's certainly not a fact -- not yet.
However, antisemitic violence by Arab immigrants in France is far from
hypothetical. As I said, if you deny it exists, then you've got your head
in the sand.
>
Paul Hyett
:
>The Mail today did not identify the race of the attackers. These sort of
>stories have appeared before with the attackers said to be white rightists and
>turning out to be fake.
Nor did the Mirror identify their race. :(
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
Jeremy Henderson
>
> "Jeremy Henderson" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
> news:pan.2004.07.13....@privacy.net...
>> On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:26:01 -0700, PTRAVEL wrote:
>>
>> >> Well, I don't personally know anybody at all that harbours
> antisemitism,
>> >> but if your question is "are only Muslims anti-semitic" then I suggest
> you
>> >> cast your mind back to 1939 - shortish German chap, funny moustache.
> Ring
>> >> any bells?
>> >
>> > Well, given the conditions in contemporary France, I think it is far
> more
>> > likely that North Africans (which is what most of the media reported)
> and/or
>> > Moroccans, Tunisans and Algerians who _are_ antisemitic are more likely
> to
>> > be Arab than Adolph Hitler.
>>
>> Yes, it's unlikely that a North African would be Adolph Hitler.
>>
>> However, it seems that we are discussing a hypothetical situation, since
>> the attackers apparently did not exist: Maghrebian, black, or whatever.
>
> That's the conclusion which, so far, only you have reached. You may be
> right, but it's certainly not a fact -- not yet.
It's more of a fact than the "six North African Muslims".
> However, antisemitic violence by Arab immigrants in France is far from
> hypothetical. As I said, if you deny it exists, then you've got your head
> in the sand.
Indeed - but I haven't.
Colin McGarry
on Europe1 this morning.
"PTRAVEL" <ptravel8...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
2lif9eF...@uni-berlin.de...
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <pan.2004.07.13....@privacy.net>, Jeremy
Henderson <m...@privacy.net> a écrit :
Antisemitic violence among Arab immigrants in France certainly does exist,
in a wide variety of places. For example, we even know of the case of a
rabbi visiting a Jewish prisoner, and some of the Arabs in the prison
attacked him.
However, this time the "six North African Muslims" were pure fiction. The
television news reported that the young woman made the story up, right down
to her home address, which is not the posh 16th arrondissement, but in the
scruffy suburb of Aubervilliers just north of Paris. The police, who had
become more and more suspicious when they couldn't find a single
corroborating witness, questioned her more closely, and she finally told the
truth. The swastikas marked on her body were done by herself and her
boyfriend. The motive for their act has not yet been determined.
I do not fault either the politicians or the press for reacting strongly,
even though the story turned out not to be true. All too often it is true,
and it is far better to react to a false alarm than to sit idly by while the
house burns.
Donna Evleth
Jeremy
Evleth" <dev...@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> Antisemitic violence among Arab immigrants in France certainly does exist,
> in a wide variety of places. For example, we even know of the case of a
> rabbi visiting a Jewish prisoner, and some of the Arabs in the prison
> attacked him.
>
> However, this time the "six North African Muslims" were pure fiction. The
> television news reported that the young woman made the story up, right down
> to her home address, which is not the posh 16th arrondissement, but in the
> scruffy suburb of Aubervilliers just north of Paris. The police, who had
> become more and more suspicious when they couldn't find a single
> corroborating witness, questioned her more closely, and she finally told the
> truth. The swastikas marked on her body were done by herself and her
> boyfriend. The motive for their act has not yet been determined.
>
> I do not fault either the politicians or the press for reacting strongly,
> even though the story turned out not to be true. All too often it is true,
> and it is far better to react to a false alarm than to sit idly by while the
> house burns.
Something that is slightly odd is that the BBC, and apparently many other
news organisations, reported 6 North Africans, whereas in France they
reported 4 Maghrebian and 2 black Africans.
Maybe this is part of the BBC's anti-Muslim agenda:
-----------------
But the failures of the British media, and in particular the BBC, require
more explanation. Studies by the Cardiff School of Journalism and the
Glasgow University Media Group suggest that there is a serious and
systematic bias among British broadcasters in favour of the government and
its allies.
The Cardiff study, for example, shows that 86% of the broadcast news reports
which mentioned weapons of mass destruction during the invasion of Iraq
łsuggested Iraq had such weapons˛, while łonly 14% raised doubts about their
existence or possible use˛.(1) The claim by British and US forces that Iraq
had fired illegal Scud missiles into Kuwait was reported 27 times on British
news programmes. It was questioned on just four occasions: once by Sky and
three times by Channel 4 News.(2) The BBC even managed to embellish the
story: its correspondent Ben Brown suggested that the non-existent Scuds
might have been loaded with chemical or biological warheads.(3) Both the BBC
(Ben Brown again) and ITN reported that British commanders had łconfirmed˛
the phantom uprising in Basra on March 25th.(4) Though there was no evidence
to support either position, there were twice as many reports claiming that
the Iraqi people favoured the invasion as reports claiming that they opposed
it.(5) łOverall˛, the researchers found, łconsiderably more time was given
to the original [untrue] stories than to any subsequent retractions.˛(6)
The Glasgow study shows that BBC and ITN news reports are biased in favour
of Israel and against the Palestinians.(7) Almost three times as much
coverage is given to each Israeli death as to each Palestinian death.
Killings by Palestinians are routinely described as łatrocities˛ and
łmurders˛, while Palestinians deliberately shot by Israeli soldiers have
been reported as łcaught in the crossfire.˛(8) In the period the researchers
studied, Israeli spokespeople were given twice as much time to speak as
Palestinians. Both BBC and ITN reports have described the West Bank as part
of Israel.(9) By failing to explain that the Palestinians are living under
military occupation, following the illegal seizure of their land,
correspondents routinely reduce the conflict to an inexplicable łcycle of
violence˛. Even this cycle is presented as being driven by the Palestinians:
the Israelis are reported as łresponding˛ or łretaliating˛ to Palestinian
attacks; violence by the Palestinians is seldom explained as a response to
attacks by Israelis.(10) Both networks regularly claim that the US
government is seeking peace in the region (ITN has described it as
łeven-handed˛) while omitting to mention that it is supplying some $3
billion a year of military aid to Israel.(11)
The BBC emerges very badly from these studies. The Cardiff report shows that
it used US and British government sources more often than the other
broadcasting networks, and used independent sources, such as the Red Cross,
less often than the others.(12) It gave the least coverage to Iraqi
casualties, and was the least likely to report Iraqi unhappiness about the
invasion.(13) A separate study by the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung of news
networks in five different countries showed that the BBC offered the least
airtime of any broadcaster to opponents of the war: just 2% of its
coverage.(14)(Even ABC news in the United States gave them 7%).(15) Channel
4 News, by contrast, does well: it seems to be the only British network
which has sought to provide a balanced account of these conflicts. (16),(17)
Alan Harrison
"PTRAVEL" <ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2lif3hF...@uni-berlin.de...
> That is, at least, not what is reported by the American news services,
i.e.
endemic in Arab culture, which has a
> long and rich tradition of anti-semitism.
Aren't Arabs, err, Semites?
Alan Harrison
PTRAVEL
"Alan Harrison" <alanth...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:cd1eqv$foi$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
Oh, not this idiocy again.
The term "antisemite" was coined in the 19th century by a German named
Wilhelm Marr as a euphemism for "judenhass" or "Jew hatred." Antisemitism
does not mean "hatred of semites," but "hatred of Jews." It's been used
that way, and is universally understood to mean that, for more than a
hundred years.
As a general rule, the only people who say, "Arabs can't be antisemitic
because they are semites," are, themselves antisemitic.
Here's an article which you should find illuminating:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Wilhelm%20Marr
Now please crawl back under your rock.
>
> Alan Harrison
>
>
>
Frank F. Matthews
cases of false reports of racism from the annual pardon as it was in
exempting racist attacks from the pardon.
Donna Evleth wrote:
snip
Baldin Pramer
> "FransHals" <frans...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com...
>
>>Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
>>the relgion of peace?
>>
>>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>>
>>Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>>
>
> It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
> of non existant atacks several times before.
> Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
> her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
> saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
>
> So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
Great. Incidents like this where something is written on the body
usually turn out to have been faked. Remember Tawana Bradley?
Baldin
poldy
stand_up_f...@yahoo.com (Bill_The_Butcher) wrote:
> This is what writer's call "delicious irony". The Jew-hating, Jew-bating
> French are sitting on a massive powder keg, and within twenty years or
> so it will blow up and destroy their foul nation. Attacks like this one
> are prime examples of the "chickens coming home to roost" in France (The
> Future Islamic Republic of Francostan).
The woman has recanted her story.
Thank you, drive home safely.
abelard
<WEBMAS...@cpmac.com>
typed:
>
>"FransHals" <frans...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
>9b942ce7.04071...@posting.google.com...
>> Coming soon to a european or UK train near you. I thought Islam was
>> the relgion of peace?
>>
>> http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/449966.html
>>
>> Mother, baby attacked on Paris train after mistaken for Jews
>>
>It turns out this morning that the woman is a fabulator. She has complained
>of non existant atacks several times before.
>Ther are no witnesses to this attack. There are two witnesses that helped
>her after the "attack" but didn't see the attack. There is a witness that
>saw her before she boarded the train and her jeans were allready ripped.
>
>So all these postings amount to anti arrab hysteria.
don't be ridiculous....
the response/s does not become hysteria by virtue of a charge proving
false...or true...
any response/s is either 'hysterical' or not on its own merits...
if a close person is reported ded...and you respond with grief...
your grief does not suddenly become different if the report is found
to be incorrect....
your grief remains just as it was...
likewise any responses to the original report remain as they were
if the reports prove false....
ps...apparently the female and a male friend have been charged...
i think with 'fabulation'
--
web site at www.abelard.org - news and comment service, logic,
energy, education, politics, etc >800,000 document calls yearly
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all that is necessary for [] walk quietly and carry
the triumph of evil is that [] a big stick.
good people do nothing [] trust actions not words
only when it's funny -- roger rabbit
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gregory Morrow
Jeremy wrote:
> Maybe this is part of the BBC's anti-Muslim agenda:
Are you *kidding*? The BBC is overtly pro - Muslim and overtly anti -
Israel.
--
Best
Greg
PTRAVEL
<snip>
> The current incident takes on some of the characteristics of
> the Tawana Brawley hoax in the US where Al Sharpton and other
> black leaders were caught up in. It is too early to class
> the current incident as a hoax, however.
Of course the big difference is that Twana Brawley, who alleged anti-Black
violence, was African American. The French woman who claims she was the
victim of an antisemitic attack was not Jewish.
Earl Evleth
<ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "Earl Evleth" <evl...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
> news:BD1955CA.3F3F7%evl...@wanadoo.fr...
>> On 12/07/04 22:48, in article 2lgbosF...@uni-berlin.de, "PTRAVEL"
>
> This is interesting. I didn't know this, thank you.
The economic growth of the 60s was based on immigrants, a large
number of Algerians were employed in the automobiles factories. The other
major groups were the Spanish and Portuguese, the latter seemed to
go into construction jobs. These immigrants were welcomed in the
60 but when things got tougher in the 70s classical French xenophobia
set it. On July 4th, 1974, the doors of immigration closed, the day
we arrived in France as immigrants! We Americans, however, have
been the chou chous of the French and were givens special treatment.
We are now French citizens.
Some of the Arab community has not made a łto French˛ conversion.
And that is where the problem is.
>> We are prison visitors in France and get an view of some of the problems
>> presented by incarcerated. The current rash of Arab anti-Semitism is due
>> to the Israeli Palestinian conflict and the American intervention in Iraq
>> and its own Arabophobia.
>
> So it is correct, then, to say that French Arabs cannot distinguish between
> Jews and Israel.
Some of the Arab community feel that is true. It depends on the social
level. We run into the lower end of the group in prison, however.
They believe that the Jews control łeverything˛, they are paranoiac on that.
So some might believe that no Jews were killed in the WTC on 9/11.
Or that the USA is controlled by Jews. Because I give a reasoned argument
some of the Arabs in my lab thought I was pro-Jewish and at one time
one Syrian reported me as a Zionist agent to the Syrian secret service
(whom he also łworked˛ for since he received scholarship for his graduate
studies from the Syrian Government). He based that accusation partly
on my łpro-Jewish˛ (he disregarded my criticisms of Israeli policy) comments
which were myth challenging and partly on my Mont Blanc pen (which has
a snow cap on it and looks like a Star of David). So some are really that
paranoiac. I got black listed in Damascus for a while until this
misimpression was corrected by the intervention of another Syrian.
Anyway, it is a culture which is ready to believe łnąimporte quoi˛ in this
area. It is a form of collective sociopathology. Everybody is not sick but
enough are to present a problem. Some of the Arab news agencies are
actually liberal and give a legitimate łother side of the picture˛. But the
Arab man on the street has his own psychological agenda.
> I also do not understand the connection between the
> American invasion of Iraq and antisemitism. Do French Arabs believe that
> George Bush, Dick Cheney et al. are Jewish?
Minimally SOME believe that the Jews have influence in America much
greater than their numbers would indicate. After all this is the belief
of some American hate groups, the KKK, Christian Identity, Aryan Nation
etc. Conspiracy theories are popular with Arabs. I had a time
convincing some that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was a bogus
document. For many it is believable. It sale is illegal in France but
it finds it ways around.
We spend 6 hours every two weeks talking these kind of issues over
with the prisoner we help, a Muslim from Black Africa who also has
US citizenship. He is educated and knows better but can't even argue
with these types any more. Since he is popular with the rest of
the inmates he is in no danger but he knows when to shut up.
The US is seen as helping Israel so much that it must be controlled
by Jews. Bush made this worse but the feeling was already there.
In fact, the pro-Israeli policies of various American administrations
is hard for Europeans to understand. Some Europeans also
feel that American Jews have too much influence. I argue against
this being true saying that other factors influence American policy,
mostly irrational ones. In sociological fact, Americaąs power elite
is classically the same as it always has been, of Anglo-Saxon
North European origins, few Southern or East Europeans including Jews.
>> The only target available to the Arab underclass
>> in France are the Jews.
>
> How so? I think you mean to say, the only available target that the Arab
> underclass elects are the Jews.
Part of it is a proximity effect. The North African Sephardics live in the
same communities as the Arabs. The voyous hate the Jews and the police,
possibly the police more. The only thing not making it worse
is that many of the Sephardics have the same social origin, some speak
Arab (or the French-Arab slang of the "burbs"). They know the Arabs
and in fact the older Muslims try to calm things down. The kids
are not listening to much to the old people.
Next, although anti-Semitism is not a big factor with the ethnic French
now, it exists in the form of the Front National, and Le Pen. I would
say that 15% of the ethnic French are anti-Semitic. Both that and
historical anti-Semitism can be taken by the Arab population as a
justification of their anti-Semitism. Some historical revision occurs and
there is some claim that the Holocaust was really not that important. For
Arabs, anyway, the Holocaust was a European Christian thing and the
Palestinians are made to pay for the sins of others. So there is blame that
Israel exists because of what the Europeans did and what the Americans
continue to do. So a transference of the blame of Israeląs existence has
occurred, letting Europeans mostly off the hook. In spite of the
Arabophobia in France, which is collectively more important than
anti-Semitism, there is some view that France is friendly to the Arabs.
Certainly having a large Arab population influences French policy but the
situation is strained. The potential for terrorism is great in France even
if a 0.1% of the Arab youth turns active in that direction. This potential
is fed by the underclass social position of these youths.
>> This population may well be more anti-American than
>> anti-Semitic by now and the Bush administration policies have shoved
>> things in that direction.
>
> That is, at least, not what is reported by the American news services, i.e.
> the French immigrant Arabs are highly antisemitic (and, almost certainly,
> anti-American as well). The latter is understandable -- Bush and co. have
> certainly not gone out of their way to win friends, either at home or
> abroad. The former, however, is simply endemic in Arab culture, which has a
> long and rich tradition of anti-semitism.
Ben Laden is a cult hero, the Arab Robin hood for some. These people would
cheeranother 9/11. CD discs containing propaganda, how to make bombs and
rob banks circulate in the prison, some CD news items arrive within
4 days of a Middle East news event. When 9/11 occurred attitudes
were not like that. The in prison situation has radicalized
in the last 3 years. This situation might explode at any time.
So far the French secret police have kept things under control.
Chirac not backing the Americans calmed things a bit along those
lines.
>>
>> One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
>> Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
>> by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
>> "I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
>> Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
>> the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
>> Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
>> Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
>
> The Sephardics aren't as small a community in the US as you might think.
> Most of the conservative Jews that I know in Los Angeles are Sephardim. In
> New York, on the other hand, Ashkenazis are the dominant group.
Some Jews have come from the middle east, I think most of the Jews from
Syria and Iraq went to the US. I don`t know the origins of the current
American Sephardims. Any information?
>> So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors which
>> escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well known
>> to the French.
>
> I don't disagree. However, I do believe that a fundamental problem, with
> which France will need to deal one way or another, is that antisemitism is
> an intrinsic part of Arabic culture in most places.
My feeling is that it varies in time. I just finished a history of Israel
(up until around 200 AD). Anti-semitism existed peroidically. The
relationships between the Greeks, then the Romans and the Jews varied from
being pretty good to murderous. Anti-Semitism in Algeria among the Arabs was
not a problem until they took a lead from the French ethnics there (pre-WWII
Algeria). I think the situation varies just as the relationship between
Christians and Muslims in the middle east. There are good times and bad
times. Right now is not so good for Christians in Egypt, for instance, the
Copts have a problem. I donąt think anti-Semitism is intrinsic among
Arabs any more than anti-Christianism, if that is the proper expression.
Both Islam and Christianity have had its tolerant periods, and some
very intolerant ones. I can well understand Jewish nervousness
when anti-Semitism in any form is on the rise. I wonąt live to see it
but I would guess that modern Israel is living on borrowed time,
maybe 100 years more and then history repeats itself once more.
I can understand why some Jews would prefer the US over Israel
as a immigration target. But I also canąt see another European holocaust
in the future, a Middle Eastern one, yes.
Earl
Jeremy Henderson
So you say, but the facts (which you snipped) show otherwise.
J;
PTRAVEL
<snip>
> > That is, at least, not what is reported by the American news services,
i.e.
> > the French immigrant Arabs are highly antisemitic (and, almost
certainly,
> > anti-American as well). The latter is understandable -- Bush and co.
have
> > certainly not gone out of their way to win friends, either at home or
> > abroad. The former, however, is simply endemic in Arab culture, which
has a
> > long and rich tradition of anti-semitism.
>
> Ben Laden is a cult hero, the Arab Robin hood for some.
Instead of "Take from the rich and give to the poor," it's "He's already
rich and kills everyone."
> These people would
> cheeranother 9/11. CD discs containing propaganda, how to make bombs and
> rob banks circulate in the prison, some CD news items arrive within
> 4 days of a Middle East news event. When 9/11 occurred attitudes
> were not like that. The in prison situation has radicalized
> in the last 3 years. This situation might explode at any time.
> So far the French secret police have kept things under control.
> Chirac not backing the Americans calmed things a bit along those
> lines.
>
> >>
> >> One irony is that one Sephardic prisoner we know will not immigrate to
> >> Israel because of what he perceives as prejudice against his community
> >> by what he considers to be the controlling Ashkenazies. He says
> >> "I can deal with the Arabs in my community in France but not them".
> >> Americans do not realize that there is a cultural conflict between
> >> the Sephardic and Ashkenazie communities because there are few
> >> Sephardics in the US. But roughly two thirds of 600,000 French Jews are
> >> Sepharidims, the situation reversed from pro-WWII.
> >
> > The Sephardics aren't as small a community in the US as you might think.
> > Most of the conservative Jews that I know in Los Angeles are Sephardim.
In
> > New York, on the other hand, Ashkenazis are the dominant group.
>
> Some Jews have come from the middle east, I think most of the Jews from
> Syria and Iraq went to the US. I don`t know the origins of the current
> American Sephardims. Any information?
American Sephardim are mostly of Spanish descent, with relatively few from
North Africa and the Middle East. This "purer" form of Sephardim is much
closer, culturally and religiously, to the more common Ashkenazi Judiasm
found among the descendents of Eastern European immigrants.
>
> >> So nothing is simple in this whole thing, there are complex factors
which
> >> escape popular thinking and the media in the USA but reasonably well
known
> >> to the French.
> >
> > I don't disagree. However, I do believe that a fundamental problem,
with
> > which France will need to deal one way or another, is that antisemitism
is
> > an intrinsic part of Arabic culture in most places.
>
> My feeling is that it varies in time. I just finished a history of Israel
> (up until around 200 AD). Anti-semitism existed peroidically. The
> relationships between the Greeks, then the Romans and the Jews varied from
> being pretty good to murderous. Anti-Semitism in Algeria among the Arabs
was
> not a problem until they took a lead from the French ethnics there
(pre-WWII
> Algeria). I think the situation varies just as the relationship between
> Christians and Muslims in the middle east. There are good times and bad
> times. Right now is not so good for Christians in Egypt, for instance,
the
> Copts have a problem. I donšt think anti-Semitism is intrinsic among
> Arabs any more than anti-Christianism, if that is the proper expression.
As I understand Islam, the Koran distinguishes between people of the book,
i.e. Jews and Christians, and infidels. Historically, however, there
doesn't seem to have been much tolerance of either. I can understand an
historic Islamic mistrust of Christianity -- the Crusades were a religious
jihad in every sense of the word. I've never understand, however, the
overall intolerance which characterizes fundamentalist Islam to this day --
it seems very non-Koranic. Of course, fundamentalism of any sort results in
intolerance. Though Christianity has had an on-again/off-again relationship
with Jews, sometimes welcoming them, sometimes expelling them, Jews have
always and consistently suffered at the hands of Muslims (even the
exceptions, such as Morocco, treated Jews, at best, as second-class
citizens). This seems true at all levels of Islam, e.g. Saudi Arabia, which
is considered progressive when compared to Iran or the Taliban, won't even
admit Jews into the country.
> Both Islam and Christianity have had its tolerant periods, and some
> very intolerant ones. I can well understand Jewish nervousness
> when anti-Semitism in any form is on the rise. I wonšt live to see it
> but I would guess that modern Israel is living on borrowed time,
> maybe 100 years more and then history repeats itself once more.
I don't think it will happen, for no other reason than Israel is too
well-armed and too willing to use it weapons. The one major lesson Jews
have taken from the Holocaust is "never again." Israel will take down the
Middle East, and possibly the world, rather than suffer a repeat of WWII
Europe.
> I can understand why some Jews would prefer the US over Israel
> as a immigration target. But I also canšt see another European holocaust
Alan Harrison
"PTRAVEL" <ptr...@ruyitang.com> wrote in message
news:6vSIc.91368$5y6....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Of course the big difference is that Twana Brawley, who alleged anti-Black
> violence, was African American. The French woman who claims she was the
> victim of an antisemitic attack was not Jewish.
For that matter, the Sikh murdered in America by a cretinous lowlife
thinking he was killing a Muslim wasn't around to allege anything.
Alan Harrison
Alan Harrison
"Gregory Morrow" <gregorymorrowT...@earthlink.net> wrote in
message news:vg3Jc.8915$kK....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
Err, no, actually. Take a look at the latest study by Professor Greg Philo
and his colleagues, in which exhaustive research clearly demonstrates the
pro-Israel bias of the BBC.
Alan Harrison
Alan Harrison
>
> As I understand Islam, the Koran distinguishes between people of the book,
> i.e. Jews and Christians, and infidels. Historically, however, there
> doesn't seem to have been much tolerance of either.
I'm not so sure. Maimonides, the nearest Jewish equivalent to S. Thomas
Aquinas, flourished in Moorish Cordoba, and Jews fared better generally in
Spain under the Muslims than after the Reconquista.
> I've never understand, however, the
> overall intolerance which characterizes fundamentalist Islam to this
day --
> it seems very non-Koranic
Some have argued that nearly the opposite is true: that the tolerance of
mediaeval Islam was based on the Koran, but that modern Islam is less
capable than Christianity of moving away from the sacred text (e.g. that it
could find nothing like the accepatnce of homosexuality which characterises
much contemporary liberal protestantism).
Alan Harrison
Olivers
By Golly, There it is! Bigger'n Dallas and twice as believable!
Now, there's as blatant an example of pissing down your leg and telling you
it's raining as you'll ever see....
Evidence that "ehaustive research" can prove any damn thing the researchers
assume to be true. Methinks the "latest study" and Prof. Philodendrum can
be roundfiled under the alterante headings of "Codswallop" and "Bullshit".
TMO
Alan Harrison
"Olivers" <ol...@LOSETHIScalpha.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9526A2C...@216.196.97.132...
> Alan Harrison extrapolated from data available...
> Evidence that "ehaustive research" can prove any damn thing the
researchers
> assume to be true. Methinks the "latest study" and Prof. Philodendrum can
> be roundfiled under the alterante headings of "Codswallop" and "Bullshit".
Errr, analysis of 200 news programmes and qualitative interviews with 800
people... This is serious work by a team led by a very open-minded academic.
Alan Harrison
PTRAVEL
>
> "PTRAVEL" <ptravel8...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:2llaluF...@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > As I understand Islam, the Koran distinguishes between people of the
book,
> > i.e. Jews and Christians, and infidels. Historically, however, there
> > doesn't seem to have been much tolerance of either.
>
> I'm not so sure. Maimonides, the nearest Jewish equivalent to S. Thomas
> Aquinas, flourished in Moorish Cordoba, and Jews fared better generally in
> Spain under the Muslims than after the Reconquista.
Brief moments in history aside, and the last century or so notwithstanding,
Muslim societies were generally more willing to tolerate the presence of
Jews than Christian societies. However, toleration hardly suggests
flourishing.
>
> > I've never understand, however, the
> > overall intolerance which characterizes fundamentalist Islam to this
> day --
> > it seems very non-Koranic
>
> Some have argued that nearly the opposite is true: that the tolerance of
> mediaeval Islam was based on the Koran, but that modern Islam is less
> capable than Christianity of moving away from the sacred text (e.g. that
it
> could find nothing like the accepatnce of homosexuality which
characterises
> much contemporary liberal protestantism).
I don't pretent to very much knowledge of the Koran and Islam. I also think
it's a bit misleading to make this statement about Christianity, which is
far from an homogenous group. Some Christian sects are extremely
progressive, whereas others are more text-bound and orthodox. I'm not sure
there's any characteristic that can be accurately ascribed to all Christians
other than a belief in the divinity of Christ.
>
> Alan Harrison
>
>
PTRAVEL
And this non sequitur has what to do with anything?
>
> Alan Harrison
>
>
David Horne
Open-minded academics on _any_ Israel/Palestinian issue seems to me to
be, increasingly, an oxymoron. In the UK, it's mostly anti-Israel,
whether it be editors of magazines refusing to include articles by
academics from Israeli universities, or heads of Islamic studies at
various universities extolling the mysoginistic and homophobic Yusuf
al-Qaradawi as a great Islamic scholar. Ho-hum...
I'm not suggesting that pro-Israel fanatics aren't equally offensive,
but I don't remember the last time one was made "truly welcome" by the
London Mayor.
FWIW, I think the BBC is pretty unbiased wrt covering Israel and
Palestine. It's no surprise that this "research" should come out.
David
--
David Horne- www.davidhorne.net
usenet (at) davidhorne (dot) co (dot) uk
Frank F. Matthews
match my view so it is silly. I wonder if Olivers works for Fox News?
Donna Evleth
Dans l'article <2lif3hF...@uni-berlin.de>, "PTRAVEL"
<ptravel8...@yahoo.com> a écrit :
> That is, at least, not what is reported by the American news services, i.e.
> the French immigrant Arabs are highly antisemitic (and, almost certainly,
> anti-American as well). The latter is understandable -- Bush and co. have
> certainly not gone out of their way to win friends, either at home or
> abroad. The former, however, is simply endemic in Arab culture, which has a
> long and rich tradition of anti-semitism.
>
>>
Concerning the incident of the woman supposedly attacked on the train, we
have just received a report on the views of some French immigrant Arabs, a
very special part of them, those who are in prison (a very large percentage
of the French prison population is foreign-born or of foreign origin, most
often North African). We got a letter today from Barry, the black American
we visit in prison in here in France. He reports the views of two major
immigrant groups in the prison population, the Gremlins and the Beards.
The Gremlins are the alienated young men from the suburbs, who can be easily
recognized by their hip hop style of dress. "Gremlins" is what they call
themselves, taken from the American film. They have been sent to prison for
common crimes, theft, sometimes attempted murder. They are always looking
for attention, including negative attention created by causing trouble.
According to Barry, they were happy to see their neighborhood (Sarcelles) in
the news for three whole days, they were even proud that the president and
the politicians were talking about them. For it is true, the attackers, had
they really existed, would probably have been Gremlins.
The Beards are the Islamic fundamentalists, often in prison on terrorism
charges. According to Barry, they did not believe the woman's story right
from the start, but said that if it was true, then it was one of those
schemes by BETAR (an extremist Jewish group in France) to deflect attention
from the news that Israel has been condemned by the World Court. Once the
news broke that it actually was a hoax, they were in seventh heaven, they
had been vindicated. This is important, because they have influence over
the Gremlins who, even if they don't practice their original Islamic
religion, still believe in it and respect it.
It is absolutely correct that both the Gremlins and the Beards are very
antisemitic. Barry has told us this a number of times. For both these
groups, everything is the fault of the Jews, and the Jews enjoy a privileged
position, controlling everything. The Israel-Palestine conflict gives them
a handy peg to hang all their grievances on, whether it's relevant or not.
Both the Gremlins and the Beards are important because they represent
important segments of their community population, and their antisemitism
will keep on causing trouble. A way has got to be found to integrate them
into the larger society, but this is easier said than done. The problem
feeds on itself, the more these two groups are shunned by the larger French
society - and they are - the more they will retreat into their community and
take out their frustrations on others, most notably the Jews. I see more
trouble to come.
Donna Evleth
Tim Kroesen
into French soil...
Did your 'golden boy' get sued for the profits of his prison book by his
victims yet?
Tim K
"Donna Evleth" <dev...@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:cd6ged$ook$1...@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr...