History of Goth Updated Again
Pete Scathe
webpage, mainly as a result of having picked up a very interesting
article from the Face, but also as I wanted to clear up some common
misconceptions.
So as well as what I've added to the Batcave page, I've added a section
about the later history of goth and a section explaining exactly why the
early goth scene had absolutely nothing to do with metal (receiving an
email from someone helpfully explaining that "it's not called Deathrock,
it's Death Metal" was the last straw...).
http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm
Links straight to the relevant articles:
http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/batcave.htm
http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/latehist.htm
http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/metal.htm
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgences: 20th April & 25th May)
club info & daft haircuts: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/
Dave (Exile)
> (receiving an email from someone helpfully explaining that "it's not
called
> Deathrock, it's Death Metal" was the last straw...).
!!!!!
I am *so* glad that I put down my cup of tea before reading that!
------
Dave
DJing at:
Tenebrae, last Fri each month, next 25 April www.djexile.net/tenebrae
Assimilation, 3rd Thurs each month, next 17 April www.assimilation.org.uk
Exile, Bath, dates variable www.djexile.net/exile
M:Alice Underground, Gossips, every Tuesday
Whisky-Dave
"Pete Scathe" <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yEcE5VAC...@scathe.demon.co.uk...
> I've finally got round to adding some more to my History of Goth
> webpage,
And for Specimen interviews and Batcave video footage, here's a link to
Snadra Perky's Specimen web page.
It's soooo 'Goth' it died.
"Sorry, This site has been deleted for inactivity in more then 500 days."
Mister Ed
> I've finally got round to adding some more to my History of Goth
> webpage, mainly as a result of having picked up a very interesting
> article from the Face, but also as I wanted to clear up some common
> misconceptions.
>
> So as well as what I've added to the Batcave page, I've added a section
> about the later history of goth and a section explaining exactly why the
> early goth scene had absolutely nothing to do with metal (receiving an
> email from someone helpfully explaining that "it's not called Deathrock,
> it's Death Metal" was the last straw...).
>
> http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm
>
> Links straight to the relevant articles:
>
> http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/batcave.htm
> http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/latehist.htm
> http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/metal.htm
Well that was an entertaining 30 minutes of reading..
(particularily liked the final note in the metal page about Black Sabbath..)
Thanks very much!
Mister Ed.
Ian Sturrock
<pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> gibbers
>I've finally got round to adding some more to my History of Goth
>webpage
<snip>
>http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/latehist.htm
Hmm. My one quibble with this is that I regard the Cult as having been
full-on Rawk! from "Electric" onwards. I remember thinking at the time
that this had a very different sound from the stuff I'd liked, and
indeed sounded almost exactly like certain 70s Heavy Metal / Prog Rock
bands (e.g. compare and contrast with the far superior Blue Oyster Cult
eponymous first album).
--
"Every winner is a villain, every loser is a hero. Just put on your two step
shoes and lose the blues. . . and dance like it's year zero. . ." (Alabama 3)
Pete Scathe
<shubni...@goatweb.com> writes
>In article <yEcE5VAC...@scathe.demon.co.uk>, Pete Scathe
><pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> gibbers
>>I've finally got round to adding some more to my History of Goth
>>webpage
>
><snip>
>
>>http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/latehist.htm
>
>Hmm. My one quibble with this is that I regard the Cult as having been
>full-on Rawk! from "Electric" onwards.
Oops, yes - for some reason I blipped "Sonic Temple" for "Electric"
there, thanks for pointing that out.
> I remember thinking at the time
>that this had a very different sound from the stuff I'd liked, and
>indeed sounded almost exactly like certain 70s Heavy Metal / Prog Rock
>bands
For once, we are in complete agreement!
I remember hearing radio sessions for the Electric album and thinking
"Why are they playing AC/DC...?" before realising "Oh my god it's
Astbury!"
Ian Sturrock
<pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> gibbers
>>Hmm. My one quibble with this is that I regard the Cult as having been
>>full-on Rawk! from "Electric" onwards.
>
>Oops, yes - for some reason I blipped "Sonic Temple" for "Electric"
>there, thanks for pointing that out.
You're welcome -- it's easily done, I fear, since most folk with taste
probably didn't want to pay too much attention to either album!
>I remember hearing radio sessions for the Electric album and thinking
>"Why are they playing AC/DC...?" before realising "Oh my god it's
>Astbury!"
I used to think Billy Duffy had the coolest haircut in all alternative
music, with that platinum blonde psychobillyesque flat-top, and remember
seeing them on TV around Electric time and he suddenly had. . . an ugly
great yellow mullet instead, that he was using to emphasise his
headbanging. I was quite badly affected by the whole episode.
Pete Scathe
OT.net.INVALID> writes
>Last episode Pete Scathe <pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> said:
>>Oops, yes - for some reason I blipped "Sonic Temple" for "Electric"
>>there, thanks for pointing that out.
>
>
Since they're both generic "rawk!" and my interest in the Cult vanished
as soon as they embraced the Way Of Cock Rock, that'd be a definite
"yes".
Pete Scathe
<shubni...@goatweb.com> writes
>>there, thanks for pointing that out.
>
>You're welcome -- it's easily done, I fear, since most folk with taste
>probably didn't want to pay too much attention to either album!
>
waned as their name grew shorter and the music correspondingly less
interesting, and the sudden shift to "Yay-ah!" style rock killed it
altogether.
>>I remember hearing radio sessions for the Electric album and thinking
>>"Why are they playing AC/DC...?" before realising "Oh my god it's
>>Astbury!"
>
>I used to think Billy Duffy had the coolest haircut in all alternative
>music,
Never quite thought that, but after interviewing him I thought he was
possibly the nicest bloke in all alternative music!
> with that platinum blonde psychobillyesque flat-top, and remember
>seeing them on TV around Electric time and he suddenly had. . . an ugly
>great yellow mullet instead, that he was using to emphasise his
>headbanging.
Yeah, that was the intermediate stage between the flat-top and the fully
long-haired look as featured on Sonic Temple.
Around the same time, Astbury wound up with an accent that wandered
somewhere between California and deepest Yorkshire...
> I was quite badly affected by the whole episode.
>
So were a lot of other people, some without realising it!
Ian Sturrock
<pe...@scathe.demon.co.uk> gibbers
>This is exactly it - my interest in the (Southern) (Death) Cult had
>waned as their name grew shorter and the music correspondingly less
>interesting, and the sudden shift to "Yay-ah!" style rock killed it
>altogether.
AOL!
I still have the SDC album, but nothing else. I didn't hate the DC
stuff or the early Cult, but it didn't do a whole lot for me either.
>Yeah, that was the intermediate stage between the flat-top and the fully
>long-haired look as featured on Sonic Temple.
I guess it must be difficult to go from looking like one might be in
King Kurt to looking like one would probably be thrown out of Iron
Maiden for being too heavy metal.
>Around the same time, Astbury wound up with an accent that wandered
>somewhere between California and deepest Yorkshire...
I remember watching bits of a televised Cult concert around that time,
and noticing how stupid and fake the accent sounded. Astbury looked
particularly stupid too, stripped to the waist, beergut dripping with
sweat, lower half somehow squeezed into leather trousers.
Jodi
>I still have the SDC album, but nothing else. I didn't hate the DC
>stuff or the early Cult, but it didn't do a whole lot for me either.
I quite like the album that has "bad medicine waltz" on it.
More accurately, I really like "bad medicine waltz"
Yet another thing I have on a knackered tape somewhere.
Jodi
I am angry I am ill and I'm as ugly as sin
My irritability keeps me alive and kicking
- Magazine, "A Song from Under the Floorboards"
Bridie Przibram
<jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk> writes
>On Wed, 16 Apr 2003 19:17:54 +0100, Ian Sturrock wrote:
>
>>I still have the SDC album, but nothing else. I didn't hate the DC
>>stuff or the early Cult, but it didn't do a whole lot for me either.
>
>I quite like the album that has "bad medicine waltz" on it.
>More accurately, I really like "bad medicine waltz"
That'd be 'Dreamtime'.
I have to blame the Cult for my years in the goth wilderness during the
late eighties and nineties. When they got into rawk, I followed them
with my little tongue hanging out, and spent far too much time
(according to my husband) listening to (shudder) Bon Jovi, Guns and
Roses and Pearl Jam. I'm still too much of a dodgy rock chick to ever be
a regular goth again.
--
Bridie
Whose husband is away this weekend, and is planning to dig out all her old Cult
LPs and play them at maximum volume!
oldgoth
"Bridie Przibram" <bri...@ty-gath.demon.co.uk.fnord.fnord> wrote in message
news:H5aUvCAJ...@ty-gath.demon.co.uk...
>
> I'm still too much of a dodgy rock chick to ever be
> a regular goth again.
Recognising your problems are often the first step to getting over them...!
oldgoth
www.insanitorium.co.uk
www.gothic-eye.co.uk
'You're not drunk if you can lay on the
floor without holding on' - Dean Martin.
Bridie Przibram
<d...@Insanitorium.co.uk> writes
>
>"Bridie Przibram" <bri...@ty-gath.demon.co.uk.fnord.fnord> wrote in message
>news:H5aUvCAJ...@ty-gath.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> I'm still too much of a dodgy rock chick to ever be
>> a regular goth again.
>
>Recognising your problems are often the first step to getting over them...!
But, but, but, the new Goth has far too many BPMs and not enough rhythm
guitar...!
--
Bridie
Jodi
>But, but, but, the new Goth has far too many BPMs and not enough rhythm
>guitar...!
Not if you look in the right places.
Mister Ed
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 20:59:40 +0100, Bridie Przibram wrote:
>
>
>>But, but, but, the new Goth has far too many BPMs and not enough rhythm
>>guitar...!
>>
>
> Not if you look in the right places.
Indeed..
:-)
Mister Ed.
Dave (Exile)
> >>But, but, but, the new Goth has far too many BPMs and not enough rhythm
> >>guitar...!
Jodi:
> > Not if you look in the right places.
Mister Ed.
> www.bansheeaircrew.co.uk
I'd also point you in the direction of bands like Belisha, The Order Of
Azrael, Avaritia, New Days Delay, The Way of All Flesh, and Descendants of
Cain for a start.
Belisha in particular might well appeal to a Cult fan - see www.belisha.com
.
------
Dave
DJing at:
Tenebrae, last Fri each month, next 25 April www.djexile.net/tenebrae
Assimilation, 3rd Thurs each month, next 15 May www.assimilation.org.uk
Dave (Exile)
> I quite like the album that has "bad medicine waltz" on it.
> More accurately, I really like "bad medicine waltz"
I actually like Dreamtime and even Love[1], but stuff like Ceremony is just
too RAWK for me.
[1] Anyone who noticed at the last Tenebrae that attempts to play Hollow Man
have been cut short on two separate occasions due to a skipping CD can rest
assured it will not happen again - the offending CD was terminated with
extreme prejudice on the spot.
Bit of a shame since it was the rarer version with the extra tracks, but it
had pissed me off twice, which was once too often.
oldgoth
"Dave (Exile)" <dave.news.r...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:b7rbuo$so9$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> [1] Anyone who noticed at the last Tenebrae that attempts to play Hollow
Man
> have been cut short on two separate occasions due to a skipping CD can
rest
> assured it will not happen again - the offending CD was terminated with
> extreme prejudice on the spot
I've had that and managed to copy it through ripping it to mp3 and burning
another copy, bit late now and anyway thats assuming it would have not
skipped on a PC
Dave (Exile)
> I've had that and managed to copy it through ripping it to mp3 and burning
> another copy, bit late now and anyway thats assuming it would have not
> skipped on a PC
Yes, it's quite likely it would have worked on one or other of the various
decks I have at home (all of which are considerably better than the Gossips
ones!), but as I said, it pissed me off... :-/
I'm sure another copy will turn up sometime at a record fair or somesuch. As
it happens, there was only one track (Judith) that I don't have on anything
else, and that's not one I'm likely to play when DJing.
Bridie Przibram
.remove...@btconnect.com> writes
>Jodi:
>> > Not if you look in the right places.
>
>
>Mister Ed.
>> www.bansheeaircrew.co.uk
>
>I'd also point you in the direction of bands like Belisha, The Order Of
>Azrael, Avaritia, New Days Delay, The Way of All Flesh, and Descendants of
>Cain for a start.
>
>Belisha in particular might well appeal to a Cult fan - see www.belisha.com
Aww, thanks for all the pointers. I've followed up on some of the links
and it all looks very interesting. Unfortunately, the computer I am
using at the moment is somewhat lacking in the audio department, but as
soon as it is sorted I shall be downloading some files to listen to.
Of course, this does spark off another round of 'What is goth music?'.
If I continue to identify stylistically as a Goth, but choose to listen
to music that floats my personal boat, such as NIN, Tori Amos, PJ Harvey
and Hole, then by definition that becomes Goth music, no?
I find bands that set out to fit into the 'Goth' mould end up sounding
contrived and dull. I followed up a lead on Ghoultown recently. Looked
great, sounded under-produced. Same with Interpol. I bought the CD on
recommendations, but decided I would rather listen to The Chameleons and
the Psychedelic Furs. Maybe it's just my age. Maybe I should stop my
bloody moaning and get a life!! :)
--
Bridie
Dave (Exile)
> Of course, this does spark off another round of 'What is goth music?'.
> If I continue to identify stylistically as a Goth, but choose to listen
> to music that floats my personal boat, such as NIN, Tori Amos, PJ Harvey
> and Hole, then by definition that becomes Goth music, no?
Hmm. I don't really want to feed this particular fire again, but personally
I'd say no, it doesn't. Whether or not music fits the tag "goth" depends on
the nature of the music, rather than on the people who listen to it. There
are plenty of people who consider themselves goth, wear goth clothes, go to
goth clubs etc. but actually like 80s pop, synthpop, or EBM. Of course they
have every right to do this, but it doesn't make what they're listening to
"goth music" IMO. For me it's about the basic elements that characterise
good "goth music" (by which I mean darkness, passion, creativity, intensity,
atmosphere rather than musical mechanics such as the ubiquitous
Sisters-esque bassline). A lot of musical forms practically preclude these
elements by their very nature (eg. it's difficult to get rhythmic creativity
and passion using a 4/4 techno beat, or atmosphere using cheesy synth
effects). Note that all this is IMO, some people might genuinely feel that
such music does have the classic "goth elements", though personally I just
don't see it (or rather feel it).
The music you cite above does IMO have dark elements, and indeed it's all
worthy stuff (except maybe NIN ;-P) but I wouldn't in general class it as
goth music.
> I find bands that set out to fit into the 'Goth' mould end up sounding
> contrived and dull.
Yes, a lot do. Unfortunately the goth scene, like most scenes, has more
followers than pioneers musically. Most of the bands that have had the
biggest influence on goth didn't come from within the scene - the scene
developed around them. Consciously trying to fit a predetermined style is
always likely to restrict creativity.
I followed up a lead on Ghoultown recently. Looked
> great, sounded under-produced. Same with Interpol. I bought the CD on
> recommendations, but decided I would rather listen to The Chameleons and
> the Psychedelic Furs.
Interpol took me a little while to get into. As you're a fan of the rockier
stuff, it doesn't surprise me that they're not your thing - it's minimalist,
Joy Division-esque stuff. You might like Puressence though, especially the
earlier stuff - it's a bit more guitar-laden than Interpol.
> Maybe it's just my age. Maybe I should stop my bloody moaning and get a
life!! :)
Well, there is still good new goth music out there... finding it these days
IMO tends to involve largely ignoring whatever the goth "scene" is raving
about and looking a bit beyond it.
Random Redhead
> > Of course, this does spark off another round of 'What is goth music?'.
> > If I continue to identify stylistically as a Goth, but choose to listen
> > to music that floats my personal boat, such as NIN, Tori Amos, PJ Harvey
> > and Hole, then by definition that becomes Goth music, no?
>
> Hmm. I don't really want to feed this particular fire again, but personally
> I'd say no, it doesn't. Whether or not music fits the tag "goth" depends on
> the nature of the music,
For me it's about the basic elements that characterise
> good "goth music" (by which I mean darkness, passion, creativity, intensity,
> atmosphere
A guy I have just met through work, holds that alot of the sixties
girl band stuff is very goth. Particularly the stuff that Phil Spectre
had a hand in. If you listen to the lyrics, most of the songs feature
people, particularly men, oft loved ones, dying. The tone of the music
may not be dark but the subject matter definitely is, and they have
soul ;-)
RR
Bridie Przibram
<dave.news.r...@btconnect.com> writes
>
>Hmm. I don't really want to feed this particular fire again,
Perish the thought...
> but personally
>I'd say no, it doesn't. Whether or not music fits the tag "goth" depends on
>the nature of the music, rather than on the people who listen to it. There
>are plenty of people who consider themselves goth, wear goth clothes, go to
>goth clubs etc. but actually like 80s pop, synthpop, or EBM. Of course they
>have every right to do this, but it doesn't make what they're listening to
>"goth music" IMO. For me it's about the basic elements that characterise
>good "goth music" (by which I mean darkness, passion, creativity, intensity,
>atmosphere rather than musical mechanics such as the ubiquitous
>Sisters-esque bassline). A lot of musical forms practically preclude these
>elements by their very nature (eg. it's difficult to get rhythmic creativity
>and passion using a 4/4 techno beat, or atmosphere using cheesy synth
>effects). Note that all this is IMO, some people might genuinely feel that
>such music does have the classic "goth elements", though personally I just
>don't see it (or rather feel it).
What about the so-called 'Trip-Hop' bands like Massive Attack, Tricky
and Portishead? They have produced some fabulous darkness, passion,
creativity and atmosphere with a very solid dance back-beat. And Depeche
Mode are the kings of cheesy synth effects.
>
>The music you cite above does IMO have dark elements, and indeed it's all
>worthy stuff (except maybe NIN ;-P) but I wouldn't in general class it as
>goth music.
Neither would I. I don't believe there has been such a thing as 'Goth
Music' since the Neffs went all black metal, but no doubt somebody will
jump up to correct me...
>
>
>Yes, a lot do. Unfortunately the goth scene, like most scenes, has more
>followers than pioneers musically. Most of the bands that have had the
>biggest influence on goth didn't come from within the scene - the scene
>developed around them. Consciously trying to fit a predetermined style is
>always likely to restrict creativity.
I agree. Therefore, I think that the move towards 'bleepy' music is just
as valid as the previous and parallel fashion for the dark broody heavy
bass line stuff. IMO Goth is, and always has been, more about style than
music, as it has always been possible to dress in black etc etc, and
listen to an eclectic musical selection, from 70's Glam to 00's EBM.
Just don't mention Marilyn Manson!
>
>Interpol took me a little while to get into. As you're a fan of the rockier
>stuff, it doesn't surprise me that they're not your thing - it's minimalist,
>Joy Division-esque stuff. You might like Puressence though, especially the
>earlier stuff - it's a bit more guitar-laden than Interpol.
I don't think it was the atmosphere. I like atmosphere. I was seeking
atmosphere. They just didn't conjure it the same way that the previously
mentioned bands did. I am just going to put it down to my age, and get
all boring and say 'they don't write 'em like they used to'. Also, I'm
not in the same head-space that I was in 15 years ago, which adds a lot
to how one _hears_ the music that one is _listening_ to, don't you
think?
>
>Well, there is still good new goth music out there... finding it these days
>IMO tends to involve largely ignoring whatever the goth "scene" is raving
>about and looking a bit beyond it.
Hence the last gig I went to was 'Alabama 3' (and not just because the
keyboardist is a mate and got us in on the guest list!). My family
situation and present location makes it hard for me to get anywhere with
people who can point out the good stuff. And even when I do, one gets
bored after a while constantly asking 'What's this song? Who are these
guys?'
I even went to Gossips once, last year, and didn't recognise anything!
Mind you, it was a Friday, and very slow. It might even have been a
Whitby weekend.
Cheers,
--
Bridie
Dave (Exile)
> What about the so-called 'Trip-Hop' bands like Massive Attack, Tricky
> and Portishead? They have produced some fabulous darkness, passion,
> creativity and atmosphere with a very solid dance back-beat. And Depeche
> Mode are the kings of cheesy synth effects.
This is where personal taste comes in, I think. I can appreciate that bands
like Tricky and Portishead are good at what they do, but trip-hop just
doesn't work for me musically. Dance beats don't convey any feeling for me,
they just sound way too "glib" or "polished" in some way (those aren't quite
the right words, but it's a difficult thing to verbalise). Even the
"goth-hop" stuff such as Hungry Lucy, or even the latest Shroud album is too
trip-hoppy for me in places (and I loved the first two Shroud albums).
Rhythm is one of the most important elements of music to me, so if the
rhythm doesn't work for me the track is on a something of a loser from the
start. As for DM, I never liked them much - again, they were good at what
they did, but it's just not something that works for me.
> I don't believe there has been such a thing as 'Goth Music' since the
Neffs
> went all black metal, but no doubt somebody will jump up to correct me...
Well, there is all sorts of recent good stuff around, but if you're talking
about stuff thought of as "traditional goth", a few examples post-Zoon would
be:
Goth rock - The Awakening, Elusive, This Burning Effigy, Passion Play,
Whispers In The Shadow
Post-punk goth - New Days Delay, Avaritia
Experimental "art-school" goth - Leisure Hive, Womb
Non-bleepy goth-industrial crossover - Gossamer, Shadow to Ashes, Nocturne,
Wench
Some of the above may have been around pre-Zoon, but all have done good
(IMO) stuff since it, as have many other long-established bands like Ikon,
the Dream Disciples, and Clan Of Xymox. There are also some other promising
new bands as mentioned in my original reply - I find it hard to see how you
could classify a band like, say, The Order of Azrael as "not goth music" -
unless you treat (pre-Zoon) Fields and Floodland-era Sisters the same way!
Plus there's a *vast* amount of closely goth-related stuff in the areas of
goth-metal crossover (Lacuna Coil, Tiamat etc.), dark ethereal,
neofolk/neoclassical, deathrock, and that's not even touching on all the
related stuff that I personally don't consider goth, but plenty of others
do.
> > Consciously trying to fit a predetermined style is always likely to
> > restrict creativity.
> I agree. Therefore, I think that the move towards 'bleepy' music is just
> as valid as the previous and parallel fashion for the dark broody heavy
> bass line stuff.
I'm not sure of the relevance there - EBM and futurepop is following an
existing form just as much as the Sisters clones are/were! I think it's
perceived as "newer" by some parts of the goth scene because it came from
the industrial rather than goth scene and so the heritage isn't quite as
obvious, but it's mostly a re-hash of the path well-trodden by older EBM
bands like Front 242, Frontline Assembly and Nitzer Ebb, coupled with more
commercial dance elements. The "new" futurepop phenomenon (VNV et al) is
basically this with added elements of late 70s/early 80s electropop. It's
difficult for anything to be truly new, since pretty much everything has
crossed over with everything else over the last decade or so.
> IMO Goth is, and always has been, more about style than
> music, as it has always been possible to dress in black etc etc, and
> listen to an eclectic musical selection, from 70's Glam to 00's EBM.
> Just don't mention Marilyn Manson!
This is where we really disagree. The goth *scene* may have always been more
about style than music, but I don't really give a stuff about that. The
*substance* of goth to me is in the music (and other art forms), not in the
scene. What Bauhaus, Siouxsie, JD etc. started in the late '70s is far more
important to me than what a bunch of refugees from the glam/new romantic
scene who went clubbing in 1982 decided to wear. These two strands have
always been present in the goth scene, and I guess we just belong to
different ones! Each to their own, vive le difference and all that.
[Interpol]
> I don't think it was the atmosphere. I like atmosphere. I was seeking
> atmosphere. They just didn't conjure it the same way that the previously
> mentioned bands did. I am just going to put it down to my age, and get
> all boring and say 'they don't write 'em like they used to'. Also, I'm
> not in the same head-space that I was in 15 years ago, which adds a lot
> to how one _hears_ the music that one is _listening_ to, don't you
> think?
Undoubtedly. This is probably one reason why the artists themselves change
their music over time (usually for the worse IMO, but not always).
> My family situation and present location makes it hard for me to get
> anywhere with people who can point out the good stuff. And even when
> I do, one gets bored after a while constantly asking 'What's this song?
> Who are these guys?'
This is where the internet can be your friend ;-)
Personally I never get bored of finding good new music. Happily being a DJ
with no family ties I can devote more time to music (though I think cause
and effect may be backwards there - I am a DJ because I love the music
rather than vice versa). As a rule, DJs never mind being asked what stuff
is - most of us are doing it because we love the music and want to promote
it.
> I even went to Gossips once, last year, and didn't recognise anything!
> Mind you, it was a Friday, and very slow. It might even have been a
> Whitby weekend.
Hmm, sure it was a Tenebrae? We always play some stuff like
Sisters/Fields/Mish/Siouxsie/Bauhaus/Cure there, which you *would* have
recognised. Also Tenebrae is usually anything but "slow", although if it was
Whitby weekend it might've been a bit quiet, especially early on.
Dave (Exile)
> Just a question, what's your opinion on Whispers In The Shadow?
> Aside from two or three tracks I find them utterly forgettable (I have
> Permanent Illusion), whereas I will shamefully to liking the new Massive
> Attack....
Hmm. I've only recently been introduced to WitS, but so far I like them very
much indeed - they are admittedly quite Cure-influenced, but if you're going
to be influenced by someone it might as well be the best! ;-) They strike me
as basically a good old-fashioned goth-rock-indie crossover. I only wish I'd
known about them a year ago - at Leipzig last year I left the venue they
were performing in, about 2 hours before they played, in order to try to
catch someone else.
As well as Permanent Illusions, I have A Taste Of Decay, the title track of
which has been keeping a dancefloor nicely at various nights for me.
Jodi
>A guy I have just met through work, holds that alot of the sixties
>girl band stuff is very goth. Particularly the stuff that Phil Spectre
>had a hand in. If you listen to the lyrics, most of the songs feature
>people, particularly men, oft loved ones, dying. The tone of the music
>may not be dark but the subject matter definitely is, and they have
>soul ;-)
I've heard that, and I don't buy it, because most of these girl bands
had no creative input into the music, were exploited and never saw any
of the money from their hits.
These are probably the same people who have worked out that that C&W is
GAF. No. Country is the work of the devil, and not in a good way.
None of this probably makes any sense, but my painkillers aren't working
again.
Bridie Przibram
<dave.news.r...@btconnect.com> writes
>
>This is where personal taste comes in, I think. I can appreciate that bands
>like Tricky and Portishead are good at what they do, but trip-hop just
>doesn't work for me musically. Dance beats don't convey any feeling for me,
>they just sound way too "glib" or "polished" in some way (those aren't quite
>the right words, but it's a difficult thing to verbalise). Even the
>"goth-hop" stuff such as Hungry Lucy, or even the latest Shroud album is too
>trip-hoppy for me in places (and I loved the first two Shroud albums).
>Rhythm is one of the most important elements of music to me, so if the
>rhythm doesn't work for me the track is on a something of a loser from the
>start. As for DM, I never liked them much - again, they were good at what
>they did, but it's just not something that works for me.
I have just been reliably informed that Massive Attack's 'Mezzanine' was
voted 'most Goth album' of whatever year it was by this very newsgroup,
along with Garbage's '2.0', both of which I happen to possess.
>Well, there is all sorts of recent good stuff around, but if you're talking
>about stuff thought of as "traditional goth", a few examples post-Zoon would
>be:
>
>Goth rock - The Awakening, Elusive, This Burning Effigy, Passion Play,
>Whispers In The Shadow
>Post-punk goth - New Days Delay, Avaritia
>Experimental "art-school" goth - Leisure Hive, Womb
>Non-bleepy goth-industrial crossover - Gossamer, Shadow to Ashes, Nocturne,
>Wench
>
>Some of the above may have been around pre-Zoon, but all have done good
>(IMO) stuff since it, as have many other long-established bands like Ikon,
>the Dream Disciples, and Clan Of Xymox. There are also some other promising
>new bands as mentioned in my original reply - I find it hard to see how you
>could classify a band like, say, The Order of Azrael as "not goth music" -
>unless you treat (pre-Zoon) Fields and Floodland-era Sisters the same way!
>
>Plus there's a *vast* amount of closely goth-related stuff in the areas of
>goth-metal crossover (Lacuna Coil, Tiamat etc.), dark ethereal,
>neofolk/neoclassical, deathrock, and that's not even touching on all the
>related stuff that I personally don't consider goth, but plenty of others
>do.
Now you see, this is where I get totally lost, as I have never heard of
any of these bands. Talk to me of Swans, Mudhoney, Godflesh, Prong,
Dinosaur Jr, Loop and Henry Rollins, and you may get some idea of where
I spent most of the 90's.
>
>> > Consciously trying to fit a predetermined style is always likely to
>> > restrict creativity.
>
>> I agree. Therefore, I think that the move towards 'bleepy' music is just
>> as valid as the previous and parallel fashion for the dark broody heavy
>> bass line stuff.
>
>I'm not sure of the relevance there - EBM and futurepop is following an
>existing form just as much as the Sisters clones are/were! I think it's
>perceived as "newer" by some parts of the goth scene because it came from
>the industrial rather than goth scene and so the heritage isn't quite as
>obvious, but it's mostly a re-hash of the path well-trodden by older EBM
>bands like Front 242, Frontline Assembly and Nitzer Ebb, coupled with more
>commercial dance elements.
In most of the clubs I have been to of late, the 'bleepy' seems to be
the norm, rather than the exception. These have been mostly in
Manchester and Liverpool.
> The "new" futurepop phenomenon (VNV et al) is
>basically this with added elements of late 70s/early 80s electropop. It's
>difficult for anything to be truly new, since pretty much everything has
>crossed over with everything else over the last decade or so.
>
>> IMO Goth is, and always has been, more about style than
>> music, as it has always been possible to dress in black etc etc, and
>> listen to an eclectic musical selection, from 70's Glam to 00's EBM.
>> Just don't mention Marilyn Manson!
>
>This is where we really disagree. The goth *scene* may have always been more
>about style than music, but I don't really give a stuff about that. The
>*substance* of goth to me is in the music (and other art forms), not in the
>scene. What Bauhaus, Siouxsie, JD etc. started in the late '70s is far more
>important to me than what a bunch of refugees from the glam/new romantic
>scene who went clubbing in 1982 decided to wear. These two strands have
>always been present in the goth scene, and I guess we just belong to
>different ones! Each to their own, vive le difference and all that.
I'll settle for that. Too much bandwidth has already been wasted on this
particular topic :)
>
>Undoubtedly. This is probably one reason why the artists themselves change
>their music over time (usually for the worse IMO, but not always).
Possibly because they are trying to write the same music that they were
writing when they were starving angst-ridden teenagers. To wit,
(although slightly off-topic) Trent Reznor reportedly having to go back
to his teenage diaries to write material for 'The Fragile'. If they
wrote for how they felt now, they may write better, yet different,
music.
>
>This is where the internet can be your friend ;-)
Well, I like looking at playlists of clubs I have been to, but I need
songs that I know to be flags for the songs that I don't know, and they
get fewer and farther between the less often I go to clubs. The last
goth club I went to was last June. By accident. In Malta!
And I already mentioned that my PC speakers are offline.
>Personally I never get bored of finding good new music. Happily being a DJ
>with no family ties I can devote more time to music (though I think cause
>and effect may be backwards there - I am a DJ because I love the music
>rather than vice versa). As a rule, DJs never mind being asked what stuff
>is - most of us are doing it because we love the music and want to promote
>it.
You might get a bit sick of me standing by the DJ box all night bugging
you with questions :)
>
>> I even went to Gossips once, last year, and didn't recognise anything!
>> Mind you, it was a Friday, and very slow. It might even have been a
>> Whitby weekend.
>
>Hmm, sure it was a Tenebrae? We always play some stuff like
>Sisters/Fields/Mish/Siouxsie/Bauhaus/Cure there, which you *would* have
>recognised. Also Tenebrae is usually anything but "slow", although if it was
>Whitby weekend it might've been a bit quiet, especially early on.
I don't think it was a Tenebrae. It was a Friday, but it was mostly
techno-y stuff. Only one of my friends danced, to one song, and she's
Finnish.
Love
--
Bridie
Dave (Exile)
> I have just been reliably informed that Massive Attack's 'Mezzanine' was
> voted 'most Goth album' of whatever year it was by this very newsgroup,
> along with Garbage's '2.0', both of which I happen to possess.
A few years ago half the scene was insisting The Spice Girls were goth, and
if you ask them today I expect a large proportion would claim VNV, Covenant
etc. are "new goth" or somesuch. The record industry are forever slapping
the goth tag on Marilyn Manson and the like (even Ozzy Osborne!). Personally
I always find it best to ignore whatever anyone else, including the "goth
scene", says is goth, and draw my own conclusions from the music itself.
This brings us back to your original point and my original reply - the fact
that some people in the goth scene listen to a certain type of music does
not IMO make it "goth music". I think I'm probably in the minority on that
one though.
> Now you see, this is where I get totally lost, as I have never heard of
> any of these bands. Talk to me of Swans, Mudhoney, Godflesh, Prong,
> Dinosaur Jr, Loop and Henry Rollins, and you may get some idea of where
> I spent most of the 90's.
Hmm, I'm with you on (some) Swans, but that's about it. Trust me, there is
plenty of good, newer goth and goth-related stuff out there, even if you've
managed to avoid it (easily done, since it gets practically zero exposure
outsicde the goth scene).
> In most of the clubs I have been to of late, the 'bleepy' seems to be
> the norm, rather than the exception. These have been mostly in
> Manchester and Liverpool.
Yes, that's been the case since around 1999-2000 when the EBM/futurepop
stuff started to really swamp the goth club scene. Things are actually
better (from a goth point of view) than they were a couple of years ago;
guitar-based stuff is having something of a recovery, although only in
certain areas it seems.
> > Each to their own, vive le difference and all that.
>
> I'll settle for that. Too much bandwidth has already been wasted on this
> particular topic :)
Well, it keeps us off the streets ;-)
> Possibly because they are trying to write the same music that they were
> writing when they were starving angst-ridden teenagers. To wit,
> (although slightly off-topic) Trent Reznor reportedly having to go back
> to his teenage diaries to write material for 'The Fragile'. If they
> wrote for how they felt now, they may write better, yet different,
> music.
Maybe... perhaps I'm just a perpetual teenager, but I *like* a bit of angst
in my music! The thought occurs that it perhaps takes a different kind of
talent to write the more "mature and reflective" stuff - I can think of a
few artists that have remained consistently good whilst changing style over
a long period, but not that many.
> Well, I like looking at playlists of clubs I have been to, but I need
> songs that I know to be flags for the songs that I don't know, and they
> get fewer and farther between the less often I go to clubs. The last
> goth club I went to was last June. By accident. In Malta!
Hmm... it strikes me that you could probably do with a couple of
compilations of decent post-80s goth music. Unfortunately, it's difficult to
think of any I'd really recommend - a lot of them have a couple of tracks by
"big names" to sell the CD and plenty of filler.
> You might get a bit sick of me standing by the DJ box all night bugging
> you with questions :)
Nah, we're used to it - and it's nice when people show an interest in what
we're playing. The main reason I started DJing in the first place was to
give more exposure to some music that I felt wasn't getting enough.
> I don't think it was a Tenebrae. It was a Friday, but it was mostly
> techno-y stuff. Only one of my friends danced, to one song, and she's
> Finnish.
Hmm, definitely not Tenebrae then! Ben does play a small amount of EBM
there, but we make sure there's always plenty of goth.
oldgoth
> This brings us back to your original point and my original reply - the
fact
> that some people in the goth scene listen to a certain type of music does
> not IMO make it "goth music". I think I'm probably in the minority on that
> one though.
Nah, I'm with you on that, a goth listening to something doesn't make it
goth, it makes it something a goth is listening to... erm...
> Yes, that's been the case since around 1999-2000 when the EBM/futurepop
> stuff started to really swamp the goth club scene. Things are actually
> better (from a goth point of view) than they were a couple of years ago;
> guitar-based stuff is having something of a recovery, although only in
> certain areas it seems.
Yep, I'm with you there too... and about time.
>
> > You might get a bit sick of me standing by the DJ box all night bugging
> > you with questions :)
>
> Nah, we're used to it - and it's nice when people show an interest in what
> we're playing.
I actually prefer that, proves that some people are taking notice at
least...
oldgoth
website: www.insanitorium.co.uk
message board: http://insanitorium.proboards18.com
(post your gigs and club dates on the calendar)
Ian Sturrock
<jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk> gibbers
>These are probably the same people who have worked out that that C&W is
>GAF. No. Country is the work of the devil, and not in a good way.
You don't like Nick Cave much then?
Jodi
me:
>
>>These are probably the same people who have worked out that that C&W is
>>GAF. No. Country is the work of the devil, and not in a good way.
>
>You don't like Nick Cave much then?
I'm still in denial there. If I had enough painkillers in me, I could
even explain why None of Nick's Output is Country.
Ian Sturrock
<jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk> gibbers
>On Wed, 23 Apr 2003 02:18:07 +0100, Ian Sturrock wrote:
>
>me:
>>
>>>These are probably the same people who have worked out that that C&W is
>>>GAF. No. Country is the work of the devil, and not in a good way.
>>
>>You don't like Nick Cave much then?
>
>I'm still in denial there. If I had enough painkillers in me, I could
Heh.
Have you seen his endorsement of Johnny Cash as one of his greatest
heroes?
Available in full most of the way down this page:
<http://www.johnnycash.com/Cashreview.htm>
Also check out Cash's version of NIN's _Hurt_ and tell me country music
ain't GAF. . .
Darkstones
<shubni...@goatweb.com> wrote:
> Also check out Cash's version of NIN's _Hurt_ and tell me country music
> ain't GAF. . .
And his version of Personal Jesus :)
Darkstones
WideRedDragon
"Darkstones" <darks...@nospam.blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:240420030142342713%darks...@nospam.blueyonder.co.uk...
And don't forget The Mercy Seat
How can you fault the man that sang, The Chicken In Black?
<WRD>
Jodi
>Have you seen his endorsement of Johnny Cash as one of his greatest
>heroes?
I'm not looking!
>Also check out Cash's version of NIN's _Hurt_ and tell me country music
>ain't GAF. . .
Everybody's been telling me it's great, but 34 years of conditioning
just won't let me listen to it...
/mel/
> These are probably the same people who have worked out that that C&W is
> GAF. No. Country is the work of the devil, and not in a good way.
Mazzy Star?
/mel/
np:
Graham Clark
> >Also check out Cash's version of NIN's _Hurt_ and tell me country music
> >ain't GAF. . .
>
> Everybody's been telling me it's great, but 34 years of conditioning
> just won't let me listen to it...
What you want to start doing is making a distinction between Country and
Country & Western. Former very mixed but some good-to-excellent, latter
deserving of immediate withdrawal of breathing rights.
G.
--
"Nice? It's the ONLY thing," said the Water Rat solemnly, as he leant forward
for his stroke. "Believe me, my young friend, there is NOTHING - absolutely
nothing - half so much worth doing as simply pushing bamboo shoots up a dead
pig's arse." Next Calling - 29th April
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Mister Ed
> jo...@gene13.demonspam.co.uk (Jodi) writes:
>
>
>
>>>Also check out Cash's version of NIN's _Hurt_ and tell me country music
>>>ain't GAF. . .
>>>
>>Everybody's been telling me it's great, but 34 years of conditioning
>>just won't let me listen to it...
>>
>
> What you want to start doing is making a distinction between Country and
> Country & Western. Former very mixed but some good-to-excellent, latter
> deserving of immediate withdrawal of breathing rights.
But you just can't beat a bit of Dolly Parton!
/*Pictures Dolly singing Temple Of Love, with shades and white pullover*/
Mister Ed
> Graham Clark wrote:
>
>> What you want to start doing is making a distinction between Country
>> and Country & Western. Former very mixed but some good-to-excellent,
>> latter deserving of immediate withdrawal of breathing rights.
>
>
> But you just can't beat a bit of Dolly Parton!
> /*Pictures Dolly singing Temple Of Love, with shades and white pullover*/
>
/*Pictures Andrew Eldrich singing "Stand by your fans" in drag*/
:-)
Mister Ed.
/mel/
> > But you just can't beat a bit of Dolly Parton!
> > /*Pictures Dolly singing Temple Of Love, with shades and white
> > pullover*/
>
> /*Pictures Andrew Eldrich singing "Stand by your fans" in drag*/
Whoa! Not while I'm eating, thankyou!
/mel/
np:
Graham Clark
Dag
> Also check out Cash's version of NIN's _Hurt_ and tell me country music
> ain't GAF. . .
Bah, just because a couple of songs by one singar happen to be GAF, doesn't
make the genre goth. But, yes Cash's Hurt and Mercy seat are Uber-GAF, and
Cash's Hurt is far better than anything NIN ever did.
Dag
Graham Clark
And his version of U2's "One" is also better than the original.
G.
--
http://yourenotwelcome.at/thecalling Next Calling - 29th April
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Ian Sturrock
<f98...@dd.chalmers.se> gibbers
Heh, that wouldn't be hard!
I think Cash has always been gother than fuck, though.
And then there's Nick Cave, and the Alabama 3. Now, the 3 might not
exactly be goth, but I don't think there's anyone can deny they're
pretty durned good.
Pete Scathe
.remove...@btconnect.com> writes
>- the fact
>that some people in the goth scene listen to a certain type of music does
>not IMO make it "goth music". I think I'm probably in the minority on that
>one though.
At the risk of starting That Argument again, I'd have to agree with you
- apart from anything else, the idea that goth music is anything "goths"
listen to throws up the immediate question of "who are goths"?, not an
easy question to answer (especially given the current trend for teenage
metallers to call themselves goths).
My personal definition of "goth music" is "the 80s goth scene" and by
extension bands that would have fitted in well with that scene, though
obviously that definition is also highly subjective.
Music that might be called "gothic", of course, is a much wider
category...
--
Pete Scathe (Next Resurgence: 25th May)
club info & daft haircuts: http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/